first off i am an atheist for sure so some of my understanding of religions concepts may be a bit off but here go's. according to the christian religion god is all forgiveing and compassionate. He can forgive anything we do. Why is it then that he had to send Jesus, his only son, to earth only to have him killed in order to pay for our sins? the way i see it he could have just forgiven us without the whole killing his son thing. also why does us killing his only son balance the scale and allow our sins to be forgiven? i would have thought it would have been another strike in the negative column for us

quote:Originally posted by pot_prince:

i would have thought it would have been another strike in the negative column for us

For you?

Would you rather God didn't exist?

Try and understand God before your athiest label is set in stone.

Christianity is only one view of God, and it's a bit of a cock-eyed one, so don't use that as you only reference.

Ok this is gonna be long but it should be understandable:

ok OUR SIN created a block between us and god so that even if god had WANTED TO he couldnt.(yes he is perfect and he can do everything but he gave us free will a choice to follow him or not to, so everyone on earth would have been destined for hell and death bevause of our sin)

anyway the only way god could destroy this barrier was by sending someone sinless to earth so he sent jesus to die(because jesus was sinless death had NO power over him id you dont sin death cant beat you but jesus allowed himself to die with all of our sins on his back as it were and as he took them to hell the barrier was destroyed and we could go to heaven by believing in him "the only way to god is through me" quote)

so in answer to your question FREE WILL is the reason god couldnt just forgive us

and the PERFECT SACRAFICE of his son destroyed the son

i hope this enlightens you and a question to your belief in no god

where did the universe come from...

where did the big bang come from...

where did the accident come from...

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF AN ACCIDENT WITHOUT SOMEONE- SOMETHING TO INITIATE IT

so even if we are an accidnet...WHOS ACCIDENT

and even if my belief dosent turn out to be true ive enjoyed my life and i wouldnt change it..what about your life are you happy with it?

^ Dude, your answer doesn't explain anything.

All the reasons that you stated offer no real understanding.

quote:Originally posted by pot_prince:

according to the christian religion god is all forgiveing and compassionate. He can forgive anything we do. Why is it then that he had to send Jesus, his only son, to earth only to have him killed in order to pay for our sins? the way i see it he could have just forgiven us without the whole killing his son thing. also why does us killing his only son balance the scale and allow our sins to be forgiven? i would have thought it would have been another strike in the negative column for us



Dude you are totally right. I've often asked other, If god is forgiving then why does hell exist? But I always got some bullshit answer, that didn't explain anything.

There was no point nor any need for Jesus to, so called, die for our sins. Especially when he is dying for the sins of ppl who at the time didn't exist. By this I mean, like when I say something bad about christianity, someone always gets pissed off then says: "You shouldn't say that, Jesus died for our sins."

This is stupid and annoying to me. But everyone should by now know that Christianity has only one sin. And that is thinking for yourself and not giving a damn about what the bible says.

I think it's stupid that someone could go on a killing spree, and then say they're sorry(beg for forgiveness), and be permitted to go to heaven. I also find stupid that someone would send their son to be maimed, tortured and then killed. Why would He send someone to be killed when he could just forgive us?

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-03-2004).]

OK. God is a loving god, but more than loving, he is just and fair. Sin cannot go unpunished, or God would not be fair. Also, God cannot physically be in the prescence of sin.

In the old testament when followers sinned they had to offer a blood sacrifice as pennance for that sin. However, we sin more times than we can possibly know. There aren't enough animals in the world to get one person into heaven.

That's why Jesus had to die. Jesus was the only human who ever lived without sinning before god. That's why he is referred to as the "lamb", because he is the sacrificial lamb that cleanses the sins of everyone, as long as you believe in him.

I'm not well versed on modern Judaism, but if anyone can tell me why Jews today don't kill animals when they sin, it would answer some questions me and some people were wondering.

Hope that clears it up,

theBishop

quote:i hope this enlightens you and a question to your belief in no god

where did the universe come from...

where did the big bang come from...

where did the accident come from...

This argument is flawed. As a Christian, i can say "God is the Alpha and Omega, and he's always existed". However, you can't use the bible in this type of argument because an Atheist doesn't believe the bible. So the obvious rebuttal is:

"where did God come from..."

and without using the bible, you can't answer this question either.

tru tru...i kinda forget that alot of wht i said in that revolves around faith..i guess u cud say i took my afith it was tru for granted so i didnt bother thinking bout the argument porperly neways "thebishop" have a pretty good explanation so ders no real reason for dis topic 2 continue

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

OK. God is a loving god, but more than loving, he is just and fair. Sin cannot go unpunished, or God would not be fair. Also, God cannot physically be in the prescence of sin.

In the old testament when followers sinned they had to offer a blood sacrifice as pennance for that sin. However, we sin more times than we can possibly know. There aren't enough animals in the world to get one person into heaven.

That's why Jesus had to die. Jesus was the only human who ever lived without sinning before god. That's why he is referred to as the "lamb", because he is the sacrificial lamb that cleanses the sins of everyone, as long as you believe in him.

I'm not well versed on modern Judaism, but if anyone can tell me why Jews today don't kill animals when they sin, it would answer some questions me and some people were wondering.

Hope that clears it up,

theBishop

I understan what you said, but if He is so forgiving, then why not just forgive. Why be so idle, as in being an Idol God.

Pagan gods, or aka, bloodgods needed sacrifices and whatnot. This Christian god was suppposed to be a true god. A god with no need for meaningless blood shed. With no need for human rituals of that sort.

But it seems that He's just another greedy blood god, when it takes the meaningless death of an animal, including man; to be granted forgiveness. If He was the one true god, an all knowing god, such trivial things would have no purpose.

(But then again to know does not mean to understand, but He being God and all should just punish those who do bad.)

Occuding to the way you put it we're all going to heaven, and again there is no need for a hell.

I bet your wondering, how so? Well you stated that sins can't go unpunished. Well if Jesus died for all of our sins then we'd already be forgiven, and again there would be no need for a hell. Because we'd all be heaven bound, by the act of Jesus' Cleansing of our sins.

I'm just saying, I mean if God is infinately compassionate, and forgiving, then doesn't hell seem to be contradictive to such a being? If He has created a place where He has so malevolently thought out a way to make another being suffer (a confused being such as man), in a fiery malicious fashion. Then doesn't that make Him evil?

I don't believe in good and evil as a force, or a side, I do however, believe evil exists in man only. But if He has created such a place for someone to be tortured, that makes Him worse than those He seeks to punish.

I'm just saying a being of pureness, such pureness that His followers speak of, could not and would not create, or even have the capacity to create hell.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-03-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-03-2004).]

Metalligod, i'm not sure you read my post carefully enough. God is sort of not infinitly compassionate. In allowing his sinless son to die, he was showing an infinite compassion.

God is just. That is the bottom line. The punishment for sin is death (spiritual death), which is hell.

I'm not 100% sure, but i kind of think God doesn't/can't "forgive" sin. In dying, Jesus "took" our sins, but God never says "you are forgiven".

Also, people WILL go to hell. I'm not sure what hell actually is, but it won't be pretty. At the very least, Hell is separation from God, which in eternity will be rough in itself. Jesus' death was a 'gift' to us. Like any gift, it must be accepted. If you don't believe Jesus was the son of God, died, and was resurrected, his blood doesn't count towards your sins.

I can't say for certain if Hell is a place that was specifically created for suffering, but i can say that hell is reserved for anyone who dies with unresolved sin. Only faith in Christ can resolve sin. That's the core of Christianity in a nutshell. Sorry if it's not very appealing :-).

love,

theBishop

PS: i'm speaking as a Christian, so sorry if my posts on this thread don't seem "open-minded"

^ If Hell is anything it's a place to burn off negative Karma. Once the karma slate is clean you can move on.

Stop telling people about an eternal place of torture ffs. That's one of the most annoying aspect of the christian belief.

If you study Eastern religeons and beliefs you can will see how Yogi masters can absorb the negative karma from his disciples. It's just negative energy.

Jesus did the same thing. He died for the sins of those around him and his sufferings was him burning off the bad energy in one very short time. He did this because of love and compassion for the people, who weren't really evil, but were just souls the same as him who just lived typical lives of ignorance.

But still people are ignorant and so they still "Sin". We still develop negative karma which must be paid off. It's just a balance that needs to be maintained (It's also a guide to direct us in the right way).

As for believing in Jesus to get to heaven. That's not how it works.

Jesus was not ignorant. He was as wise as wise gets, and by following and understanding his teaching we can learn the same wisdom a lot faster than we could otherwise. It's this learning that thrusts us faster down the path of our spiritual lives.



[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 04-04-2004).]

well the truth about hell is that enternity in hell IS the punishment for your sin. it is not temporary. the reason why God would need to seperate u from him (by sending u to hell) is that if he allowed u to be with him, he would be a hypocrit since he stands for what is good.

the way i see Jesus dying on the Cross is like this: Jesus was God. he was also a man. he was not half God and half man, instead he was 100% God and 100% man. Jesus died on the cross for us and God went to hell for us. since God is eternal he served all of our time in hell and since he is God and is eternal, he was able to take care of our sins for that we will ever do. in the end God is not "dead" or eternally seperated from himself. instead he is God and can do anything and that was the only way for him to save us without being unjust.

now i have a feeling that my theory may not exactly be correct so feel free to pick it apart and point out holes in it.

but then again all that is required is understanding that u r sinnful and faith that u can be forgiven, and the will to accept what is being offered to u

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

the reason why God would need to seperate u from him (by sending u to hell) is that if he allowed u to be with him, he would be a hypocrit since he stands for what is good.



We remain on earth experiencing the cycle of life and death until we become sinless, not out of fear of hell but from growth and realisation.

If what you said is true then just about every single person would be going to hell.

Wouldn't it make sense that if God was all loving then he'd at least he'd let you live and learn?

soul flayer i completely agree with u bcus thats what made jesus special because he had to endure everything we do (100% man) but he was also part of the holy trinity(100% god)

well put

Jesus died so we could learn that both good and bad people die.

quote:Originally posted by severance:

i hope this enlightens you and a question to your belief in no god

where did the universe come from...

where did the big bang come from...

where did the accident come from...

I believe in a God, but not the Christian God. It really annoys me when people ask questions like these because it shows that they never actually went to the effort of researching the big bang theory, which means they've always assumed it to be whatever they thought or whatever soemone told them it was and never went more in depth. Its incredibly ignorant.

To answer your question, physicists are trying to use quatum mechanics to determine how you can infact get something from nothing. Basically how a tiny, dense ball of matter came into existance.

Ive always found it interesting though, that many religious people find it easy to believe the idea that God could have either always existed or willed himself into existance, yet they have difficulty applying the same concept to our universe. Who are you to say our universe had a begining? Who are you to say it didn't bring itself forth? I suppose when there is nothing, there are no laws of physics and no limitations on what can happen so theres no way to say its illogical or impossible that you get something from nothing. It may perhaps be impossible now because within this universe we are bound to the laws of physics, but if the universe did infact have a begining and before it there was nothing then there were no laws or boundries and theres no way to say what could/did happen.

However here are two theories of the big bang :

quote:THE INFLATIONARY UNIVERSE: This theory is based on quantum fluctuations in the vacuum which basically states that a sudden burst of energy created an inflationary condition which expanded the universe to a huge size. In other words; The universe today is the direct result of symmetry breaking caused by a vacuum fluctuation and/ or quantum tunneling effect.

quote:SUPERSTRINGS AND MULTIDIMENSIONAL SPLIT: This theory implies that all 11 and/or 26 dimensions (known in superstring theory) were collapsed to a size called the Planck lenght. They were held togheter by strings wrapped around them, however two strings of opposite charge (also known as particle and antiparticle) collided and destroyed each other letting some of the wrapped-up dimensions escape the grip and inflate to a huge size (3 dimension of space and 1 of time).

quote:Originally posted by the Bishop:

"where did God come from..."

and without using the bible, you can't answer this question either.

Actually that would be true if the question was 'Where did the Christian God come from?'

The Bible is not needed to explain theories of a God and his existance. Of course many religious depicting many different Gods exist, along side the theories and ideas of individuals which aren't outlined in any religious.

But I see what you mean.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

OK. God is a loving god, but more than loving, he is just and fair. Sin cannot go unpunished, or God would not be fair. Also, God cannot physically be in the prescence of sin.

However one can look at the fact that God would be the ultimate authority on anything and everything. So if it is only fair to punish sinners it is because God made it that way. And if God made us, and gave us free will knowing it would result in sin [and theres no arguing that he couldn't know] he did this knowing that he would have to punish us for it. And then we get back to the idea of how he can be a loving God when he knowingly had many of us burning in Hell before we were ever created [figuratively speaking of course].

In all honest, if he was so Loving and he knew that so many of us would be destined to burn in Hell would it not make more sense to either change what is considered fair [considering he has the ability to do/change whatever he wants] or not create us in the first place? Or even create us lacking the free will to deny him and his word[s]?

I suppose the idea of simply not creating us could be faced with a counter argument to the effect of; is it fair to deny existance to so many who will do right by him simply to save the ones who won't. In which case we get back to him being the ultimate authority on what is fair.

He has it within his power to take away our free will or at the very least give us as much free will as we have with the exception of the ability to deny him. If he chooses not to how can it be 'fair' to punish those who only used what he gave them?

Lets use an example. Suppose I have a cat. To the cat I can be seen as a God. Obviously not in the literal sense, however I have relatively infinite power over the cat and when it comes down to me and him hes gonna lose [however that of course does not make me a God, but I hope you understand what Im trying to say here]. Now, much like the Christian God, [we cannot see him or talk freely with him] the cat cannot communicate with me. Sure he can see me, but I might as well dance around singing show tunes when I tell it to do something, because all it hears is a bunch of crap that means nothing. Now, suppose I take the cat outside and set it on my front lawn and say 'obviously you have every option to do whatever you want, however I want you to ALWAYS stay on the lawn and NEVER leave it. I will take care of you while you stay on the lawn, but if you leave it I will hunt you down and kill you!', would it be 'fair' for me to kill the can't when it runs off the lawn? I don't feel it would be. The cat could not understand me, and I in no way definitively expressed my wishes to the cat, much like God has done with us. Sure you could argue that the Bible is definitive and that its as simple as that, but then I could alter the example. Suppose I take the cat into a room with 50 dishes of cat food, as well as a big pile of cat food in the corner and say 'I want you to eat ONLY from the 23'rd dish of cat food or I will kill you'. Is it fair for me to kill it when it fails to eat only from the 23'rd dish of cat food? This represents how we're presented with so many different religious options, many of which claim to be the one truth. How can we be expected to know and understand that one is the truth over all the rest which make the same claim? Its not quite 'fair' to present these creatures of free will with so many options, not giving them any clue as to which one is the absolute truth then punishing them for making the wrong choice. Sure its easy for you to say 'while Christianity is true because I know it' but how can I believe you over so many other people who will claim the exact same thing about their religion with as much faith and truth in their words?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Metalligod, i'm not sure you read my post carefully enough. God is sort of not infinitly compassionate. In allowing his sinless son to die, he was showing an infinite compassion.

How can you say that? If we have free will then it was simply our [or rather [i]their, but thats just semantics] choice to kill Jesus and God had nothing to do with it. By saying 'In allowing his sinless son to die' you're implying that he had every option to stop what the people had planned for him. I suppose the fact that he allows us to be so confused and in the dark about him is something completely different? If he had the option to deny us of our free will when we decided to kill Jesus why does he not have the same option to show us all the way to the truth? And if he does is it not evil for him to allow so many to suffer an eternity for his choice not to give them any information on what the truth really is?

The point Im trying to make is that you can't really claim the Christian God is doing justice in sending people to burn in Hell for eternity for sinning when he is the ultimate authority on everything. He is the one that decided what 'justice' is, he is the one that decided what 'sin' is, he is the one that decided that 'sinners' need to be punished for 'justice' to exist, and he is the one that decided to create us knowing so many would be unable to fulfill his wishes and would be sentenced to eternal pain in order to keep 'justice' in order. And he has every option to change anything and everything to allow us to live like we do yet not have to suffer punishement for his downfalls. Is it not evil for him to not do so when he has the ability to? If he can do anything and everything then he can make it so we all get into heaven while still fulfilling any plan he wants, can he not? Is he not omnipotent? Is it not evil to send so many to an eternity of pain simply because he chooses not to use his omnipotence to our advantage? Basically what you're saying is that he has himself and his wishes in mind, and what is best for us and our souls is not important. Is that not inherently evil?

[This message has been edited by SEN D-F (edited 04-04-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

Basically what you're saying is that he has himself and his wishes in mind, and what is best for us and our souls is not important. Is that not inherently evil?

[This message has been edited by SEN D-F (edited 04-04-2004).]

If having your own best wishes in mind is inherently evil, than all humans are evil, and therefore deserve punishment by your own logic. What makes you think you deserve to go to heaven? I certainly don't, and I haven't met too many people that do.

Okay, let me put this a different way. Say you were walking to your friend's house (who had just told you that he cleaned his house from top to bottom), and along the way you decide (out of your own free will), to jump in a bunch of mud, and dirty yourself. When you get to your friends house, he sees that you are muddy, and says you can't come into his clean house unless you take off your dirty shoes. Is your friend evil because he won't let you dirty his house?

Of course not. But what if your friend decided to tie you up in his garage and beat you for getting dirty? That seems pretty evil.

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

If having your own best wishes in mind is inherently evil, than all humans are evil, and therefore deserve punishment by your own logic. What makes you think you deserve to go to heaven? I certainly don't, and I haven't met too many people that do.

Not by my logic. I never said the Christian God deserves to be punished for having evil intentions. And you're right, most humans have themself in mind. BUt theres one big difference, we're humans and he is God. We have control over only ourselves so thats who we look out for, he on the otherhand has control over everything and everyone.

Hell, even humans look out for eachother and other creatures at times. A lot of the time in fact.Think of how many people goto work everyday to support their families. Its not like they're running down the street picking of rapsists and murderers, but they're doing their part to help other human beings.

God should be above us and our intentions, and if anything, comparing God to humans wouldn't seem to smart in my opinion. Some see us as a part of God, but by far God should be much more then us.

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

Of course not. But what if your friend decided to tie you up in his garage and beat you for getting dirty? That seems pretty evil.

"Hell" is seperation from God (ie: not going in the house), not a beating in the garage. Lots of people DO help others, but the majority think of themselves first. You don't have to teach a kid NOT to share, after all.

Once again, we're humans not God[s]. How we act and our intentions should not be compared to that of [a] God. Just because we're petty and selfish does not mean God should be the same.

And I believe fire and brimestone are described throughout the old testiment when Hell is being described. You may believe Hell is an absence of God, but what the Bible seems to say and what a lot of people believe is that Hell is eternal torture. And thats the issue.

If Hell was an absence of God, then would this not be Hell? And even if you feel a closeness with God, there are millions who never have and never will experience what you feel, and will spend their lives seperted from God. So would this not be there Hell then? And if its their Hell, would it not be Hell for everyone in it?

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

Not by my logic. I never said the Christian God deserves to be punished for having evil intentions. And you're right, most humans have themself in mind. BUt theres one big difference, we're humans and he is God. We have control over only ourselves so thats who we look out for, he on the otherhand has control over everything and everyone.

Hell, even humans look out for eachother and other creatures at times. A lot of the time in fact.Think of how many people goto work everyday to support their families. Its not like they're running down the street picking of rapsists and murderers, but they're doing their part to help other human beings.

God should be above us and our intentions, and if anything, comparing God to humans wouldn't seem to smart in my opinion. Some see us as a part of God, but by far God should be much more then us.

Using my previous example (lame as it is), God may have made the mud, and knew that you were going to step in it, but he gives you the option to be cleaned. In my life, I have wallowed in the mud for far too long, and I am grateful for the oppotunity for cleansing.

If there was not free will, people would be automatons, thought could not exist, as choice is the center of all your thoughts.

So? If that was the case wouldn't we be like that when we die? I mean, we cn't have the choice to murder someone while in heaven can we?

And what would it matter? If it meant infinite glory for everyone, would it not be worth it? And if we spent all our lives without free will we probably wouldn't miss it, because we'd have no concept of it. One could argue that free will would be better as it gives us freedom, but none of us have ever lived under a God who keeps us in line, so we don't know what it would be like. All I can say is the world would most defenitly be a better place and we'd all be guaranteed a nice chusy spot in heaven.

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

Using my previous example (lame as it is), God may have made the mud, and knew that you were going to step in it, but he gives you the option to be cleaned.

The only problem is he throws it in with a practically infinite amount of other options, so theres no way for anyone to KNOW they're doing right by God. Sure you believe Christianity is the way, but a Muslim feels the same way about their religion, can defend it just as well and has just as much reason for believing what they do. How do you know you're right over them? You don't, you simply believe it to be so. And there is where the problem lies.

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

Once again, we're humans not God[s]. How we act and our intentions should not be compared to that of [a] God. Just because we're petty and selfish does not mean God should be the same.

And I believe fire and brimestone are described throughout the old testiment when Hell is being described. You may believe Hell is an absence of God, but what the Bible seems to say and what a lot of people believe is that Hell is eternal torture. And thats the issue.

If Hell was an absence of God, then would this not be Hell? And even if you feel a closeness with God, there are millions who never have and never will experience what you feel, and will spend their lives seperted from God. So would this not be there Hell then? And if its their Hell, would it not be Hell for everyone in it?

God is not absent from our present world, He is everywhere and everything, but He is hard to see in our present evil society. If you choose to be petty and selfish, when there is the option not to, would you not deserve punishment? The absence of God would be eternal torment, as it would be concious nothingness. What could be worse than the total absence of good? Most of the references in the Bible about 'hellfire and brimstone' and other stuff like that are describing Lucifer's punishment, which will be far worse than any human punishment.

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

The only problem is he throws it in with a practically infinite amount of other options, so theres no way for anyone to KNOW they're doing right by God. Sure you believe Christianity is the way, but a Muslim feels the same way about their religion, can defend it just as well and has just as much reason for believing what they do. How do you know you're right over them? You don't, you simply believe it to be so. And there is where the problem lies.

Actually, I can pick apart the Muslim religion with ease (Muhammud[sp?] was a asshole), as well as Hinduism (a perversion of zoroastrianism) and many other religions. Their roots can all be traced back to false beginnings, but no one has sufficiently disproven Chrisianity to me (Biblical Christianity, not organized religion Christianity). I am very intrested in archeology and the like, and have researched a lot (not enough, though, you can never research enough) and the majority of the material that I have seen points to a monotheistic system as the most logical one, and Christianity has the most valid pedigree, so to speak. The ancient Zoroastrians knew that Jesus was the Messiah, as predicted from the stars (the 'three wise men' were Zoroastrian). The only other major monotheistic religion is the Muslims, and their religion does not have historical backing for the claims it makes. The main reason that I think Christianity is the 'true' religion, though, is the fact that so many people are against it. I believe that people have an inherently evil disposition, so if the majority is so dead set against it, it must be right. That, and more and more end time prophecy from the Bible is coming true every day (increase in natural disasters, population explosion, increase in war in the middle east, etc). Sorry if this post doesn't 'flow' to well, I went for lunch in the middle of typing. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I'm very interested to here how you think Hinduism came from Zoroastrianism.

quote:Originally posted by evolove:

I'm very interested to here how you think Hinduism came from Zoroastrianism.

As far as I can see, the Rig Vedas of the Hindus takes some of the main concepts of the Vashtas, but pollutes them with polytheistic myths and folklore (kind of the same thing Catholics did to pollute Christianity).

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

well the truth about hell is that enternity...

Your entire post was contradictory, and you say that God sends ppl to hell cause He would be a hypocrit. That is IMMENSELY STUPID. God making a place like hell, makes Him a hypocrit.

How in the bloody hay, can He be so kind and pure, and forgiving, if He sends ppl to hell?

Doesn't that seem contradictory?

Man is a infinately confused creature, because we can't know or prove the existance of a deity concretely. So we have only our faith, our hope that a deity exists. God being supposedly so intelligent and kind, would understand that. A god such as your God, who is said to love all. Would not hold someone He loves in eternal purgatory.

For if the opposite is true your whole religion, and your God is contradictory.

If the opposite is true, I want no part of your God. And somehow I believe billions of others would feel the same.

You, whether you believe it or not, make your God sound like a child playing master. Love with so many conditions, like a child who could love some1, and hate them in an instant. Like a child hating everyone when they can't have their way with things. Like a child trying to harm some1, even torture or kill spme1 when they disagree or don't do what they want them to.

Like a child hating to be questioned on everything they do, but ask so many questions themselves. You make your God sound hideous.

Yeah I agree with you on one thing. If Christ was real, it had to be God incarnate.

And this to me makes your God even more a hideous creature. Thinking by becoming human, He'll know, and/or understand what it means to be human.

When He'll know nothing, because He knew full well what would happen when He died. Knowing all the while that He was God and would remain so after the torture, the pains, the hardships in his life.

Him having this info, while being human kept him from understand what it's like to not know, to doubt ones self, to struggle with beliefs, and to worry, to worry about the future of his soul.

Him thinking that rapping Himself in flesh would make Him know what it meant to be a man, proves He doesn't know, nor understand all.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Your entire post was contradictory, and you say that God sends ppl to hell cause He would be a hypocrit. That is IMMENSELY STUPID. God making a place like hell, makes Him a hypocrit.

How in the bloody hay, can He be so kind and pure, and forgiving, if He sends ppl to hell?

Doesn't that seem contradictory?

Man is a infinately confused creature, because we can't know or prove the existance of a deity concretely. So we have only our faith, our hope that a deity exists. God being supposedly so intelligent and kind, would understand that. A god such as your God, who is said to love all. Would not hold someone He loves in eternal purgatory.

For if the opposite is true your whole religion, and your God is contradictory.

If the opposite is true, I want no part of your God. And somehow I believe billions of others would feel the same.

You, whether you believe it or not, make your God sound like a child playing master. Love with so many conditions, like a child who could love some1, and hate them in an instant. Like a child hating everyone when they can't have their way with things. Like a child trying to harm some1, even torture or kill spme1 when they disagree or don't do what they want them to.

Like a child hating to be questioned on everything they do, but ask so many questions themselves. You make your God sound hideous.

i take it u disagree that it is understandable for God to be both fair and loving at the same time? if u were to say i will not put my self in the presents of evil and then allow yourself to befriend a person who likes to rape dead bodies or something else that is evil, are u not a hypocrit? God shows his love by him giving man the oppertunity to continue to be evil or to be pure like him while allowing man to retian the current thing him and God have in common, the ability to have a free will.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Yeah I agree with you on one thing. If Christ was real, it had to be God incarnate.

And this to me makes your God even more a hideous creature. Thinking by becoming human, He'll know, and/or understand what it means to be human.

When He'll know nothing, because He knew full well what would happen when He died. Knowing all the while that He was God and would remain so after the torture, the pains, the hardships in his life.

Him having this info, while being human kept him from understand what it's like to not know, to doubt ones self, to struggle with beliefs, and to worry, to worry about the future of his soul.

Him thinking that rapping Himself in flesh would make Him know what it meant to be a man, proves He doesn't know, nor understand all.

so u r saying that God wanted to know what it is like to be human so he sent Jesus to die for himself? Jesus was for us not God. personally i feel that Jesus dying on the cross was for man to see so that he may better understand what God has done for him and see his love. God doesnt need to experience life as a human to understand it. and omniscient being such as God is empathic (like councilor Troy from Star Trek just on a godly level), so he would already know and fully understand the feelings of anything he created and gave the ability to have feelings to.

[This message has been edited by soul flayer (edited 04-05-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

God is not absent from our present world, He is everywhere and everything, but He is hard to see in our present evil society. If you choose to be petty and selfish, when there is the option not to, would you not deserve punishment? The absence of God would be eternal torment, as it would be concious nothingness. What could be worse than the total absence of good? Most of the references in the Bible about 'hellfire and brimstone' and other stuff like that are describing Lucifer's punishment, which will be far worse than any human punishment.

While I won't argue with you about God being present in our world, seeing as how I haven't met a Christian that doesn't feel that way, your views on Hell are personal. Well, Im sure there are tonnes of people who agree with you, but they are by no means truth. You may feel Hell is eternal concious nothingness but you can't prove that thats the truth [assuming Christianity is true of course]. Infact Im sure it wouldn't be hard to pull up biblical quotes describing Hell as a place of fire and eternal damnation.

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

no one has sufficiently disproven Chrisianity to me

And Im sure nobody has sufficiently disproven the Muslim faith to a Muslim person, or Hinduism to a Hindu person and so on. Im sure you feel that you could adequately pick appart the Muslim faith or Hinduism but that is because you don't believe in them, so you see many flaws. Obviously if they didn't seem flawed to you you'd be following one of them. However soemone who follows the religion could probably easily give you a rebuttal to anything you could say, just like you could do with Christianity. Obviously though, their answers to any of your questions will seem flawed or illogical, and the same goes for them. Soemone of one faith will never be satasfied with another one.

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

The main reason that I think Christianity is the 'true' religion, though, is the fact that so many people are against it. I believe that people have an inherently evil disposition, so if the majority is so dead set against it, it must be right.

If Im correct Christianity is the worlds largest religion [followed by Islam and Hinduism I believe]. How then is 'the majority so dead set against it'? I suppose you could argue that despite it being the most followed religion, there are still so many more religions and beliefs that the number of people who don't follow Christianity out number the amount that do. But if thats the case the same can be said for any and all religions, faiths and beliefs, and if Christianity is the most followed religion then it actually has fewer people 'against it' then any other religion, faith or belief.

I really fail to see how you came to the conclusion that Christianity in any way has more people 'against' it then any other religion. Sure you get your immature hate posts on totse and what not, but Im sure most of the people making those posts are either quite young and/or incredibly ignorant. If its just because they're young, hopefully they'll grow up soon. And if its just because they're ignorant, then how can you say that their ignorant beliefs at all prove anything about Christianity?

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

That, and more and more end time prophecy from the Bible is coming true every day (increase in natural disasters, population explosion, increase in war in the middle east, etc).

To be fair the increase in population means fuck all. I will right now predict that the population will become dangerously high in the future.....watch it come true. I don't think anyone, ever, would really say that the human race is going to thin out or become dangerously low. Now, if the Bible predicted that and it was true, I'd be impressed because that isn't the most logical assumtion one could make about the dominant species of a planet.

As for other prophecies, the ones Ive heard of seem pretty vague and weak to me.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Yeah I agree with you on one thing. If Christ was real, it had to be God incarnate.

Why is that? I believe Jesus existed but do not believe he was God. I simply believe a lot of the stories surrounding Jesus were made during a confused and uncertain time, by confused and uncertain people. If you look into the past you can find quite a few elaborate stories and things trying to explain simple occurances. However in a time when there really was no true science and no definitive facts about the world [obviously Im sure they had the basics down, but you know what I mean] things that may seem simple and logical to us could have seemed bizzare and miraculous to them. Coming out of grade school kids have a basic understanding of math and the solar system and science and what not; more then a 30 year old man would have known in biblical times.

So in my opinion, a lot of the stories and ideas surrounding Jesus were simply attempts at justifying what was seen/experienced without the luxury of science.

[This message has been edited by SEN D-F (edited 04-05-2004).]

[This message has been edited by SEN D-F (edited 04-05-2004).]

Well anyways, I'll try to brinh this thread back on point.

Ok, try to think of the way the society/religon has evolved, now imagine how it may have turned out had Jesus not been born, things would be a lot different then they are now. The influence of christianity has had a great effect on the evolution of human cultre. No other religon has had such an impact on the history of modern civilization. While there have been many wars about christianity at the same time it has givin the people who fought these wars & others positive moral values to live by. It is really as simple as the golden rule (Due unto others... you know) yet religous institutions have made it seem more complicated than it really is.

So anyways here's what i'm getting at,

Ok now god being infinate knows the past and futre, time does not flow for him everything is there at once he can see it not from beginig to end as we do but more like a portrait if you will. Ok know imagine the beauty that jesus adds to this portrait from his view, now imagine how dismal this portrait could have been without the effect jesus has had. It would be quite a difference I'm sure. If all the people that are christians now had never became christian or religous we would be living in an even crueler harsher world than we live in today, and many more souls would be lost in chaos than there are now, I don't think this would be pleasing to God why would he want a world full of immoral people who live to please only themselves with no example of how to live rightchously. So by adding Jesus in the picture we have an idea of what we ae meant to be & with this it gives us oprotunity to become somthing more (to be forgivin for those who think in those terms) to give us a better sense of our purpose instead of living blindly.

Like it has been said, He is the light he is the way.

Hope you peeps get what i'm sayin.

peace.

quote:Originally posted by Lysergamideman:

If all the people that are christians now had never became christian or religous we would be living in an even crueler harsher world than we live in today, and many more souls would be lost in chaos than there are now, I don't think this would be pleasing to God why would he want a world full of immoral people who live to please only themselves with no example of how to live rightchously.

How do you know what the world would be if anything was different? You don't. Don't be stupid and claim to know what the world would be like if something didn't happen.

And I absolutly HATE it when people try and claim that Christainity is the only thing that keeps people moral and in line. Are you honestly trying to say that all non-christians are immoral and live only to please themselves? Are you saying that this is what everyone was like before Christianity? Thats ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by SEN D-F (edited 04-05-2004).]

I found these to quotes, the second one maybe the weeker of the two, I found it on www.Hindunet.com (http://www.Hindunet.com) but I think that most schollars agree that it was no later that 2500bc that Hinduism could have started, which is the Vedic texts, things like the Uppanishads(sp) were maybe only written sometime before 600bc. which could consevable been corrupted a little, but the base was already there, and it's a tennent of Hinduism that they can absorbe other beleif systems without compromising they're own.

I did once read that they have found coins that have people in yogic postures on them, dating to 10,000-15,000bc. this could be said to be the earliest evidence of Hindusim, or it's related philosophies/practices

I'm going to stop babbling crap in the middle of this conversation now.

-----------------------------

The problem of Zarathushtra's time will never be solved, unless some improbable archaeological find turns up. Most scholars agree on a time-frame for Zarathushtra which could be as early as 1700 B.C. or as late as 1000 B.C.

-----------------------------

Hinduism is one of the oldest religions of the world. It is definitely the oldest among the living religions. The European historians of early 20th Century grudgingly accepted the period around 2500 B.C. as the earliest available evidence of the origin of the Vedic religion, which is a precursor to Hinduism. But many present day scholars, especially from India, do not agree with this opinion.

The Evidence

The antiquity of Hinduism can be better estimated from the astronomical evidence available in the Hindu Scriptures, the folk-traditions and anthropological studies peculiar to the Indian sub-continent, and some geographical and etymological references mentioned in the Vedic literature. These evidences suggest that the Hinduism has a long and checkered history of at least 6000 years or more.

Zoraster:

"There is a controversy as to the date of his birth. Historians believe that he lived some time around 1000 B.C. According to another opinion he might have lived some time around 600 B.C. While it is not possible to arrive at an exact date, we can safely assume that he might have lived during the early Rig Vedic period, when the Rigvedic people were busy consolidating their gains in the northwestern parts of the subcontinent."

quote:Originally posted by evolove:

Zoraster:

"There is a controversy as to the date of his birth. Historians believe that he lived some time around 1000 B.C. According to another opinion he might have lived some time around 600 B.C. While it is not possible to arrive at an exact date, we can safely assume that he might have lived during the early Rig Vedic period, when the Rigvedic people were busy consolidating their gains in the northwestern parts of the subcontinent."

Your point is? According to what you have just said, Hinduism may or may not be older than Zoroastrianism, and Zarathustra lived most likely during the period when the Rig Vedas were written. Keep searching.

To SEN D-F: Christianity is NOT the biggest religion in the world. You are thinking of Catholocism, which is quite different. They use a different Bible, worship Mary and the 'saints', and hold completely different views on the Church, God, heaven, and hell. Some may argue, but I was raised Baptist, and taught that the Roman Catholic Church is the anti-Christ. I do not agree with all Baptist doctrine, but there is a lot of Biblical prophecy that backs this idea up. My brother has a few books on the subject, I'll see if I can borrow them for more info.

as far as i remember from when i read the bible, god was not to happy about what Jesus was doing, father-son relationships eh! jesus needed cruxifying, in the eyes of the romans, because he was a trouble causer who was saceligious against their gods and very ungrateful for all the romans had done (security, clean water, sewers, trade laws etc...)

when he was sacrificed, a favrorite in biblicans, he was made a martyr, but just for good effect to show how powerful god is to the romans, loads of rumours started about his resurrection.

just to get this straight, all those who say jesus died to take our sins, does that mean it's time to party???

quote:Originally posted by pot_prince:

Why is it then that he had to send Jesus, his only son, to earth only to have him killed in order to pay for our sins? the way i see it he could have just forgiven us without the whole killing his son thing. also why does us killing his only son balance the scale and allow our sins to be forgiven? i would have thought it would have been another strike in the negative column for us

Here's how it works: Adam was created without flaw directly by God. (Whether this is true or not, doesn't really matter. Just the idea matters). Jesus was also created similarly, the main point being that they were both sinless and equal in that regard.

Now you could have a big argument about if this really happened this way, or not. But no one can prove it either way, or disprove it. So forget about that for right now, but assume it is correct for arguments sake. Because it is the message, not the reality, that is important, since we will find out there may not be any reality.

So Adam sinned by eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. His reward for this was death. The wages of sin are death.

Now Jesus comes along. He also is tempted to sin. He remains sinless. What is his reward? DEATH. God kills him or allows him to be killed...same thing.

Why?

Because, everyone already believed that he should have lived as a reward. But Jesus was sent to teach us something...that love believes all things, and that God is love. If we are able to believe that Jesus should live for being good, we must also believe that Jesus should die for being good. He did both.

What was Adam's sin? He quit believing all things. He decided that some things he could do were good, and that some things he could do were bad. He ate of the tree of good and bad. Jesus didn't. He believed all things.

What is good?...To believe all things.

What is bad?...To believe in any other rule.

To paraphrase: To believe all things means that you can see there is SOME truth in any idea, or some good in any idea. (Also some untruth and some bad, in any idea, or action) The only idea that is completely true and good, is that there is NO OTHER idea or belief that is completely true and good.

That is why Jesus had to die. If Jesus was God or not, is not relevent. If he was "immaculately concieved" or not, is not relevent. If it "really" happened or not, is not relevent.

Love is believing all things. God is love. We can attempt to do this. But we will always fall short. Thats the fun part!

[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 04-06-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

so u r saying that God wanted to know what it is like to be human so he sent Jesus to die for himself? Jesus was for us not God. personally i feel that Jesus dying on the cross was for man to see so that he may better understand what God has done for him and see his love.

How so? If an inventor constructed a robot, a cyborg. Looked human, acted human etc, and that machine murdered, stole, raped etc., who would be held responsible?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

If you don't believe Jesus was the son of God, died, and was resurrected, his blood doesn't count towards your sins.



What does that mean believing Jesus was the son of god? How does it make him different from us? What does "only begotten" mean?

When Jesus was accused of blasphemy for saying he was the son of god, his defence was that their own scriptures said "Ye are Gods"(Psalms). Blasphemy was a serious offence, punishable, by jewish law, with immediate stoning to death. Jesus defence rested on a scripture that says in effect that all are gods, by using this defence Jesus seems to place himself on the same level as everyone else, not some exalted unique 'son of god'. How then does one's destiny hinge on believing jesus was the "son of god"?

The record speaks for itself despite those who seek to control the minds and behaviour of others. If there is a God/Creator, we are all His children/creations, and all people are equally significant. John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." -- could be paraphrased -- 'But as many as received christ consciousness, to them was given the realisation that the sons of god are those that believe, 'God is help'. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

i take it u disagree that it is understandable for God to be both fair and loving at the same time?

Ummm, where did you get that from????

quote:if u were to say i will not put my self in the presents of evil and then allow yourself to befriend a person who likes to rape dead bodies or something else that is evil, are u not a hypocrit?

What does this have to do with anything???

What reference would make you say this?

Yes some1 would be a hypocrit for that. But that also also has many dimensions. And you trying to use such a thing as a way of making a point does not make you appear very smart.

How in the bloody hay, am I to know if some1 rapes dead f*n bodies? Dude that's dumb. That's not exactly um, a thing that one would say in a conversation, or a story to tell at a freakin dinner party. What person would say that. Sex offenders are very secretive about those things anyway.

quote:God shows his love by him giving man the oppertunity to continue to be evil or to be pure like him while allowing man to retian the current thing him and God have in common, the ability to have a free will

That's a load of bull, how can the follwers of God have free will and have to follow all His rules? Making some1 follow rules is not giving them free will, it's telling them what to do. And God is not pure, tell me what pure thing can make a place such as hell. Do you think Ghandi would make a hell? To say that some1 is pure and then to say they've created a place for souls to SUFFER for ETERNITY, is contradictive and idiotic.

And like I said before no one knows concretely that God exists, so for Him to really exist and punish those who are hurt by confusion, and grief and pain and self-torture, makes Him an imbacile, an evil imbacile!

quote:so u r saying that God wanted to know what it is like to be human so he sent Jesus to die for himself?

No that's not what I'm saying. It's sad that you quoted me and ask this question. I remember saying:"If Christ was real, it had to be God incarnate."

This means that I blieve God was Jesus, not that He sent Jesus.

quote:Jesus was for us not God. personally i feel that Jesus dying on the cross was for man to see so that he may better understand what God has done for him and see his love.

I never said that Jesus was for either us or God. However, how does a man dying and getting the shit beaten out of him show love??? I mean, be serious, that doesn't make any sense. And the reason no one believed Jesus was because, well... Would you believe someone if they told you they were God or the son of God? I highly doubt that you would. Many have done this and still no one believed them either, these ppl are often called, megalos.

If God truly wanted us to know He existed He'd come and tell us Himself. If He is real then, He could do whatever He wanted. And knowing, and UNDERSTANDING Man(as you for some reason think He does), He would understand that were not going to believe something someone says, just because they said it. Collectively, we are not a gullable creature.

quote:God doesnt need to experience life as a human to understand it. and omniscient being such as God is empathic (like councilor Troy from Star Trek just on a godly level), so he would already know and fully understand the feelings of anything he created and gave the ability to have feelings to.

HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA!

mAN THAT IS FUNNY.

Dude if God was all knowing then Jesus would have no purpose. Why make Jesus when knowing all the while, that his death would just be a death to so many. If He understood US, then He'd realize that the consciouses given to us, makes us a creature of reason. No creature of reason would listen to a MAN who tells them that He is the son of God.

Being a human means wanting to know things concretely. That's why we have science, and so many scientists. We want to know things for what they are. Humans want proof, and Jesus had no proof that He was a being of the creed he claimed. If indeed, God made us then He'd KNOW this for sure.Well I guess I know what your gonna say next.

"Well, if ppl want proof then why do they believe in God, with no proof He indeed exists?" I would then answer: "Faith!" Faith is a type of concrete proof for humans, we make faith in ourselves with a thing called, theory. The theories of the bible, all man made, nothing more than theories.

Oh, and BTW: Feeling the same thing as some1 does not signify understanding. Everyone can feel love, and interpret it different. Everyone can feel pain, but not everyone construes it the same way. If indeed God exists, He’d never type us. He has no understanding of man! Never, never should one categorize man so foolishly, not one creature of mankind can be representative of us all, we are not all the same.

quote:Originally posted by Lysergamideman:

Well anyways, I'll try to brinh this thread back on point...

What a jerk, and didn't even stay on topic, as did the ones he/she/it complained about.

yeah a great job at Brinhing things back to the point. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) just kidding dude.

Ok no more kidding, you make yourself sound like a hypocritical moron. How in the bloody hell can Christianity be so great and give man good morals, when FIGHTING A FUCKING WAR???!!!

That's pious and just fuckin stupid. Espsecially when the damned religion their forcing on everyone is a religion that breaches: KILLING IS A SIN!

Thus making it immoral, the opposite of what you posted. I could go on for days, LITERALLY, about how stupid what your saying is, but I too tired so I'll call it a night.



[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-07-2004).]

quote:Why is that? I believe Jesus existed but do not believe he was God. I simply believe a lot of the stories surrounding Jesus were made during a confused and uncertain time, by confused and uncertain people. If you look into the past you can find quite a few elaborate stories and things trying to explain simple occurances. However in a time when there really was no true science and no definitive facts about the world [obviously Im sure they had the basics down, but you know what I mean] things that may seem simple and logical to us could have seemed bizzare and miraculous to them. Coming out of grade school kids have a basic understanding of math and the solar system and science and what not; more then a 30 year old man would have known in biblical times.

Because Jesus did not live as a human, He rather made his whole life a plan. A plan to make everyone believe that He was the son of God. If you've read my belief that Satan was not evil then you'd understand this. He made his whole life a plan for making all man Christian.

Trying to make everyone believe in God, to make everyone trust in God, and believe that He could do no wrong. He made his whole life a way to make those who already believers in God, force that belief onto everyone. If you don't already know Christianity, was the bloodest(at least in my oppinion) one of the bloodest religions every created.

There have been many wars made to get ppl to convert. And the death and belief in Christ fueled many of these wars. Never before has a religion benn taken so seriously, never before did ppl believe that those who didn't believe in thier god, were the advocates of the devil. And should die.

Before Christianity, ppl lived kindly amongst believers in the pagan gods. But this Christianty was(again in my oppinion) a disease of mans ability to reason. I believe if God is real that He was Jesus, and was trying to prove a point, to the first being that He created to think on it's own(Satan).

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

To SEN D-F: Christianity is NOT the biggest religion in the world. You are thinking of Catholocism, which is quite different. They use a different Bible, worship Mary and the 'saints', and hold completely different views on the Church, God, heaven, and hell. Some may argue, but I was raised Baptist, and taught that the Roman Catholic Church is the anti-Christ. I do not agree with all Baptist doctrine, but there is a lot of Biblical prophecy that backs this idea up. My brother has a few books on the subject, I'll see if I can borrow them for more info.

According to the thigns Ive read christianity wins overall. However they never differentiated between Catholism and Christianity because Catholism is Christianity. Just one of its many faces.

quote:Originally posted by bkc:

Now Jesus comes along. He also is tempted to sin. He remains sinless. What is his reward? DEATH. God kills him or allows him to be killed...same thing.

One could easily argue that Jesus was not without sin as by allowing himself to be killed he commited suicide. Some even believe Jesus was sent to hell before his ressurection. He would not have gone to Hell if he was not a sinner.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Ummm, where did you get that from????

err:

"How in the bloody hay, can He be so kind and pure, and forgiving, if He sends ppl to hell?" - Metalligod

remember that?

quote:if u were to say i will not put my self in the presents of evil and then allow yourself to befriend a person who likes to rape dead bodies or something else that is evil, are u not a hypocrit?

quote:What does this have to do with anything???

What reference would make you say this?

Yes some1 would be a hypocrit for that. But that also also has many dimensions. And you trying to use such a thing as a way of making a point does not make you appear very smart.[QUOTE]

ok simplified, God = one who made the vow not to alow evil around him

Mankind = the evil necrophiliac basterd

explination, u agreed by saying that would be hypocritical so it was actually a good point in defence about God not being a hypocrit by sending ppl to hell

[QUOTE]How in the bloody hay, am I to know if some1 rapes dead f*n bodies? Dude that's dumb. That's not exactly um, a thing that one would say in a conversation, or a story to tell at a freakin dinner party. What person would say that. Sex offenders are very secretive about those things anyway.[QUOTE]

uhh dude, look at the point made. i did not intend for ppl to draw conclusions on the possibility of them meeting a sick fuck that rapes dead ppl and knowing about it, i just used that as an EXAMPLE of evil since it was the first thing to pop into my head and it seemed like ppl would see through it and understand what i was trying to say, but guess not everyone was able to get it so i guess i was wrong so srry........

[QUOTE]That's a load of bull, how can the follwers of God have free will and have to follow all His rules? Making some1 follow rules is not giving them free will, it's telling them what to do. And God is not pure, tell me what pure thing can make a place such as hell. Do you think Ghandi would make a hell? To say that some1 is pure and then to say they've created a place for souls to SUFFER for ETERNITY, is contradictive and idiotic.

no. it is not a load of bullshit. followers of God dont have to and it is impossible for them to follow his rules exactly since we r sinnful creatures and are destined to fail. many times throughout school (especially math class) the teacher will give the students some credit if it looks like they tryed to complete the assignment or do the test.

the reason for rules and stuff is to show us what perfect is and to let us know that we cant achieve it on our own. we r children compared to God. parents will typically let a child try something on thier own and then help them out after the child knows they cant do it on their own.

and God is not making man follow any set of rules. if he was we prolly wouldnt be having this debate since u would be perfect and i would be perfect and the world would get along and agree. like i said, God gives us choices that we are to make out of our own free will.

hell is a place away from God. if God doesnt want u with him, is he evil? it seems to me that one of our main conflicts is that u r look at mankind as innocent while i am looking at mankind as guilty. if man is innocent of any sin at all, the only reason for hell would be for other creations that are not innocent (lucifer and his pals). the government is not neccisarily evil just because it makes jails to send the ppl who violate the law of the land, so why should God be evil if he makes a place for evil to go since God doesnt want evil to be anywhere near him. God is the Judge, the Jury, and the Sentancer, and in our case he is also the DA.

quote:And like I said before no one knows concretely that God exists, so for Him to really exist and punish those who are hurt by confusion, and grief and pain and self-torture, makes Him an imbacile, an evil imbacile!

well i can tell u that i know that God exist but u will think i am crazy, but i cannot prove to u that he exist. but that there is a different conversation now to yer arguement about mankind being hurt by confusion, grief, pian, self torture and all that other good stuff. only God knows what u would do if u were perfect and faced with temptation. this may not seem fair to man but in the end God created us and set forth what is good and decided what evil would be by saying everything outside of the bubble of good is evil, there is no lukewarm, just hot and cold, positive and negative, on and off, 1s and 0s. and dude u should have known that it is IMPOSSIBLE to convince me of that point(i just gave u the Universal God is Right point and man is not and it is true assuming that God exist)!!!! lol just like it is impossible for me to convince u of Gods existance. but then again i am not trying to convince u of anything, im just voicing my point of the arguement agianst your contrary point.

quote:No that's not what I'm saying. It's sad that you quoted me and ask this question. I remember saying:"If Christ was real, it had to be God incarnate."

This means that I blieve God was Jesus, not that He sent Jesus.

well i guess i may have worded it wrong but u were basically implying that God needed to do something to know everything (including how it is like to be human). i am saying that an omniscient being such as God already knows those things and does not need to DO anything special to find them out.

quote:Jesus was for us not God. personally i feel that Jesus dying on the cross was for man to see so that he may better understand what God has done for him and see his love.

quote:I never said that Jesus was for either us or God. However, how does a man dying and getting the shit beaten out of him show love??? I mean, be serious, that doesn't make any sense. And the reason no one believed Jesus was because, well... Would you believe someone if they told you they were God or the son of God? I highly doubt that you would. Many have done this and still no one believed them either, these ppl are often called, megalos.

well technically, Jesus didnt have to get the shit beat out of him. infact Jesus didnt neccisarily have to exist for salvation to work. Jesus was also a man, he was 100% God and 100% man (and no he wasnt schitzo)Jesus the man was used to show man what God did in areas that man cannot see, like making Jesus perfect to be the final sacrifice for mankind while keeping himself away from evil. in away God was seperate from Jesus but he was Jesus, 100% God 100% man(yes i understand that this is very confusing so perhaps by reading the New Testament ye shalt understand more)

quote:If God truly wanted us to know He existed He'd come and tell us Himself. If He is real then, He could do whatever He wanted. And knowing, and UNDERSTANDING Man(as you for some reason think He does), He would understand that were not going to believe something someone says, just because they said it. Collectively, we are not a gullable creature.[QUOTE]



or if God truly wanted man to know that he existed he could also have a book written and have it say "Seek and ye shall find." and he could make a complex system(universe) and let ppl see how complex it is and wonder about the existance of a creator and seek him them selves. if u r implying what i think u are, then u r right. only God can prove his existance to man, and like i said before, i am convinced that he exist and so are millions of others.

[QUOTE]God doesnt need to experience life as a human to understand it. and omniscient being such as God is empathic (like councilor Troy from Star Trek just on a godly level), so he would already know and fully understand the feelings of anything he created and gave the ability to have feelings to.

quote:HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA!

mAN THAT IS FUNNY.

Dude if God was all knowing then Jesus would have no purpose. Why make Jesus when knowing all the while, that his death would just be a death to so many. If He understood US, then He'd realize that the consciouses given to us, makes us a creature of reason. No creature of reason would listen to a MAN who tells them that He is the son of God.

ok ill start from the bottom up. Jesus didnt just tell ppl in his time that he was the son of God, he showed ppl by making the blind see, the lame walk, the dead live, and alot of other good things that a normal person cannot do.

yes, God does expect us to reason things out, and we do. alot of ppl during his time reasoned "this dude performs miricles, maybe we should listen", while others during his time beleived that he would have their religion desacrated and decided to execute him. throughout milleniums his words have been kept and his prophecies are becoming true and more. it takes reasoning to figure that "maybe should try what i have been told" hence i became a Christian.

why NOT make Jesus knowing that him not existing will cause the spiritual death of every human being?

hmm do i smell a contridiction made by u? lets see:

"Dude if God was all knowing then Jesus would have no purpose." and

"I never said that Jesus was for either us or God"

if God was not all knowing then would Jesus have a purpose? u were implying that God made Jesus for him in the first quote and u deny it in the second. but then again perhaps it was worded wrong or i misunderstood it...

quote:Being a human means wanting to know things concretely. That's why we have science, and so many scientists. We want to know things for what they are. Humans want proof, and Jesus had no proof that He was a being of the creed he claimed. If indeed, God made us then He'd KNOW this for sure.Well I guess I know what your gonna say next.

but no matter what, humans will never understand everything because there is no concrete proof to every valid question of our existance. and Jesus did have proof that he was the Son of God. have u heard of all the cool stuff he did that we cant? he has an entire series of books about him called the New Testament, the ppl that wrote it were convinced but your right, we need faith.



quote:Well, if ppl want proof then why do they believe in God, with no proof He indeed exists?" I would then answer: "Faith!" Faith is a type of concrete proof for humans, we make faith in ourselves with a thing called, theory. The theories of the bible, all man made, nothing more than theories.

yes all humans must have faith in something no matter what they believe in. i have to have faith that Jesus did in fact die on the cross and pay for my sins, but that faith is reinforced by other things such as prayer and fellowship with God. this is just about impossible to understand to someone who does not believe in God so i am expecting u to think im crazy but i assure u i am not. all i can say is i know it is true.

quote:Oh, and BTW: Feeling the same thing as some1 does not signify understanding. Everyone can feel love, and interpret it different. Everyone can feel pain, but not everyone construes it the same way. If indeed God exists, He’d never type us. He has no understanding of man! Never, never should one categorize man so foolishly, not one creature of mankind can be representative of us all, we are not all the same.

so your saying an omnipotent, omniscient being such as a God does is not really omnipotent and omniscient since he has NO understanding of man? that kinda contridicts the deffinition of a "god" such as the one i refer to. as for man, all humans have things in common yet we all think differently, yer right. but think of it this way: suppose u were in Adams place according to the book of Genesis. u have no knowledge of any religion and everything u now does not exist so u no longer know nothing. all u know is what God told u to do and what he programed into yer genetics. lets say Eve comes along so u r no longer lonely. and now lets say u were faced with the temptation of doing something wrong (the snake and the strange fruit thingy). do u really think u can withstand that temptatino. remember Adam and Eve had all the evidence they needed to know God exist; he talked to them and they knew what God was capable of doing, so why did they disobey him? because they were tempted so much that they gave in. any of us would prolly have done the exact same thing in thier shoes.

now i think i know what u might say next "that is very cruel of God since he knew that we would fall!" the only answer i can give to that is the universal God is Right because he is God and he made every thing.

"He who holdeth the biggest stick makeths the rules." -some quote i compiled from other quotes hehe

and God has the Biggest stick and we are lucky that hey decided to give us a chance at redemption

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

One could easily argue that Jesus was not without sin as by allowing himself to be killed he commited suicide. Some even believe Jesus was sent to hell before his ressurection. He would not have gone to Hell if he was not a sinner.

would that mean that Jesus was then nolonger the perfect sacrifice for us and that all Christians r going to hell no matter what?

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

would that mean that Jesus was then nolonger the perfect sacrifice for us and that all Christians r going to hell no matter what?

If Christianity is infact true, maybe. I don't know. Im simply telling you what happened. He allowed himself to die which can be seen as suicide, and some believe he went to Hell. What comes of that I don't know, Im just saying theres a chance Jesus didn't die free of sin.

Me, nor anybody else can say what this would truly mean. One could only speculate, but Im only telling you what happened and what some people believe.

quote:Originally posted by StoneMan:

Christianity is NOT the biggest religion in the world. You are thinking of Catholocism, which is quite different.

They use a different Bible, worship Mary and the 'saints', and hold completely different views on the Church, God, heaven, and hell. Some may argue, but I was raised Baptist, and taught that the Roman Catholic Church is the anti-Christ.

Catholicism is a form of Christianity, just like Baptism.

Catholics, Pentacostals, Anglicans, Baptists, Christian Scientists, Orthodox Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. all use different bibles and hold completely different views on God, heven and hell.

But by any reasonable definition of Christian - somebody who (at the very least claims) to follow the teachings of Christ, Catholics are just as Christian as Protestants.

Incidentally, I'm not a Catholic, but it is my understanding that they worship neither Mary nor the Saints, only ask them for favours.

If the reasons behind Jesus are really so complicated no wonder the biblical religions branched off after his time.

all this sin stuff is made to instore fear into the common person

you you believe these tales they tell then you desreve to burn in hell

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

so your saying an omnipotent, omniscient being such as a God does is not really omnipotent and omniscient since he has NO understanding of man? that kinda contridicts the deffinition of a "god" such as the one i refer to.

And just what is the one you refer to, because all the definitions of god that I've ever known, says nothing about being able to know everything. You kinda don't know what your talking about. Now being omniscient means all knowing, but god does not mean all knowing. So to answer your question, NO, it's not contradictive.

quote:as for man, all humans have things in common yet we all think differently, yer right. but think of it this way: suppose u were in Adams place according to the book of Genesis. u have no knowledge of any religion and everything u now does not exist so u no longer know nothing.

This makes no sense, At All.

quote:all u know is what God told u to do and what he programed into yer genetics. lets say Eve comes along so u r no longer lonely. and now lets say u were faced with the temptation of doing something wrong (the snake and the strange fruit thingy). do u really think u can withstand that temptatino. remember Adam and Eve had all the evidence they needed to know God exist; he talked to them and they knew what God was capable of doing, so why did they disobey him? because they were tempted so much that they gave in. any of us would prolly have done the exact same thing in thier shoes.

First of all what does this have to do with anything. Secondly, I wouldn't have eaten the damned thing, especially without someone else eating it first. Not because I'm a follower(doesn't describe me at all) but because I'm smart. I would wait to see if the bitch died from eating it first, or if she was punished.

quote:now i think i know what u might say next "that is very cruel of God since he knew that we would fall!" the only answer i can give to that is the universal God is Right because he is God and he made every thing.

Ahh, wrong! I wouldn't have asked that cause I don't think it's a very good question. And also, just because I build a house and make everything in it. Then make creatures to live in this house, then beat the shit out of them whenever I wanted to, would not make it right.

If I program a robot, and then put it in the presence of a cat, and it raped the cat, I wouldn't destroy it, or torture it. That's stupid.



quote:"He who holdeth the biggest stick makeths the rules." -some quote i compiled from other quotes hehe

and God has the Biggest stick and we are lucky that hey decided to give us a chance at redemption

What in the bloody anus, you are insane. That is so stupid. A chance to redeem us FROM WHAT?!!! I aint done shit, to be redeemed from. What in Gods eyes have I done wrong? The way you speak of God, makes me see Him no different from Hitler, or the wht supremists. How fucking lame is it to punish future generations, for something that an ancestor has done? Or to punish one for your dislike of their ancestors? That's PIOUS BULLSHIT!

Metalligod-Soul_flyer

err:"How in the bloody hay, can He be so kind and pure, and forgiving, if He sends ppl to hell?" - Metalligod

remember that?

Ok, how did you get the idea that I believe that God can't be both fair and loving at the same time? What does the above which you quoted have to do with being fair and loving?

Now let me ask this, would you send someone to hell that you loved? Now tell me this, if you chose to send someone to hell that you love, to be tortured and burned for eternity, would that not make you evil?

ok simplified, God = one who made the vow not to alow evil around him

Mankind = the evil necrophiliac basterd

explination, u agreed by saying that would be hypocritical so it was actually a good point in defence about God not being a hypocrit by sending ppl to hell

This makes no sense, and to add to this, I also said, IT HAS MANY DIMENSIONS! How the hell would I know if someone rapes dead fuckin ppl? So I've changed my mind, that would not make someone a hypocrit, how are they to know if somes butt fucks dead bitches, that's stupid. And you shouldn't dare to think, to use it as a defense angain.

no. it is not a load of bullshit. followers of God dont have to and it is impossible for them to follow his rules exactly since we r sinnful creatures and are destined to fail. many times throughout school (especially math class) the teacher will give the students some credit if it looks like they tryed to complete the assignment or do the test.

You just killed your argument. And you use false statements. Followers of God do have to follow His rules. And if we have destiny, then God makes us do what we do. So why would He then punish us if He made us do it? Dude just quit. So what if a teach gives someone credit, what does that have to do with anything? You choose bad analogies that often deface what is said previously.

For example:the reason for rules and stuff is to show us what perfect is and to let us know that we cant achieve it on our own. we r children compared to God. parents will typically let a child try something on thier own and then help them out after the child knows they cant do it on their own.

Know tell me, do these parents then torture, banish, and/or burn their children for an eternity, because the child couldn't accomplish what they know the child can't accomplish?

and God is not making man follow any set of rules. if he was we prolly wouldnt be having this debate since u would be perfect and i would be perfect and the world would get along and agree. like i said, God gives us choices that we are to make out of our own free will.

How can we have choices, and have a predestined future? You aren't making sense.

hell is a place away from God. if God doesnt want u with him, is he evil? it seems to me that one of our main conflicts is that u r look at mankind as innocent while i am looking at mankind as guilty. if man is innocent of any sin at all, the only reason for hell would be for other creations that are not innocent (lucifer and his pals). the government is not neccisarily evil just because it makes jails to send the ppl who violate the law of the land, so why should God be evil if he makes a place for evil to go since God doesnt want evil to be anywhere near him. God is the Judge, the Jury, and the Sentancer, and in our case he is also the DA.

No, God wouldn't be evil for not wanting me, but then why even fuckin create me? It's not that He doesn't want ppl, that wouldn't make Him evil. But to then torture them, forever, that makes Him evil.

I don't see 'Mankind' as guilty or innocent, NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME! I do however, see ppl indivisually guilty, or innocent. Whatever being types man so stupidly, be he a Deity or anything else, would make that being STUPID! Infinately stupid.

And what is this innocents you speak of, what makes one guilty? I don't believe Satan is evil, and by your description of God and heaven, he can't be evil. God puts those He does not like, in hell, so you say. Why then is Satan welcome to heaven?

And this thing about the government, by the gods,you are ignorant(it just means you don't know or understand). We The People, made the laws, not one being who thinks we should praise it. Our rules are divised by US. So it is by us that we decide what is right, or what is wrong, and none of our sentences punishes one for eternity.

So again, bad analogy( hehe, it says 'anal'-oh-gee). (Disregard my childishness)

well i can tell u that i know that God exist but u will think i am crazy, but i cannot prove to u that he exist. but that there is a different conversation now to yer arguement about mankind being hurt by confusion, grief, pian, self torture and all that other good stuff. only God knows what u would do if u were perfect and faced with temptation.

First, I won't say your crazy, did you not read the thing I said about faith?

I'm http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif) on what you said about the conversation stuff, I don't know what you mean, at all.

this may not seem fair to man but in the end God created us and set forth what is good and decided what evil would be by saying everything outside of the bubble of good is evil, there is no lukewarm, just hot and cold, positive and negative, on and off, 1s and 0s. and dude u should have known that it is IMPOSSIBLE to convince me of that point(i just gave u the Universal God is Right point and man is not and it is true assuming that God exist)!!!!

Your not making complete sense, however, if God did indeed make us, then our being evil came from Him. Thus making Him impure, thus making Him amassed with evil. You like analogies so much, well are you familiar with chemistry?

Let me break it to you this way, 2h2 O2 2Na 2Clà 2H2O+2Nacl. In layman’s terms, it basically says, that what is yielded on the left side of the arrow, has to come from somewhere, which is the product on the right. If there is evil in us then it came from our maker, God.

BTW: I’m not atheist, so quit it with the, can’t make me blah blah, etc.

well i guess i may have worded it wrong but u were basically implying that God needed to do something to know everything (including how it is like to be human). i am saying that an omniscient being such as God already knows those things and does not need to DO anything special to find them out.

No, was saying that if God and Jesus were real, then Jesus was God Incarnate, which means he was God. Know if you built a freakin robot, and it had sex with another one, would you know how it felt to have sex as a robot? No, because you not a robot. If you built a robot and it was suffering, but this suffering had no name, it had no explanation, could you know what it was feeling. No. Humans have many emotions and feelings; God could not know what it was like to be man. Especially when, (in the event that He and Christ were real) He know all along that He was God. He didn’t let Himself go, He did let Himself forget, and see what it was like to be man, to feel as a man does. No amount of empathy can make someone know this. It’s the same as adults and babies, babies feel things differently, wool could be painful to their touch, but to an adult it wouldn’t be painful.

As for the rest of your reply, making the blind see and healing someone with your hands, has also been done by ppl. Some of these are mere tricks and for anyone to believe someone is God because the do this makes them dumber than shit! Have you ever heard of a Miracle Worker? Well these ppl become millionaires every year, cause they use Churches as their stages, and everyone feeds into, when all the while they’re just being scammed. Can you see know why such things would not work on reasonable ppl?

Your full of it when you say if Jesus didn’t exist we’d all be spiritually dead. That more PIOUS BULL! Christianity is not the only freakin religion on the globe. And BTW: Christianity is also known as the bloodiest religion.

How can me saying I didn’t say, “Jesus wasn’t for us or God” be a contradiction. If I DIDN’T SAY IT, then what makes it a contradiction to something that I did say? Your not using your God given brain. I never said who Jesus was for when you had made the comment.

And the thing you said about humans never knowing, well you don’t know that for certain, number 1, and 2, we'll know out of the flesh when were dead. And what you said about Jesus’ proof, have you ever heard of a magician? There was a man in the ‘50s who claimed he could heal all, well his partner could walk and make it apper as though he had broken limbs. He would then after the man claim to use his power, make it look as though his bones were snapping into place. He’d then throw his cane and run and flip. Magician, nothing more.

so your saying an omnipotent, omniscient being such as a God does is not really omnipotent and omniscient since he has NO understanding of man?

Yes I am.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-07-2004).]

I dont think was a question of being "all-knowing", you can "know" a great many things but that is different from actually experiencing it. You can stand at the side of a bed and shed tears, but you can only "know" what its like to have cancer if you have suffered it yourself.

In the same way I think the incarnation, in some respects, was God not only leaving the side of the bed and sharing our suffering, but suffering for us.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

OK. God is a loving god, but more than loving, he is just and fair. Sin cannot go unpunished, or God would not be fair.

In the old testament when followers sinned they had to offer a blood sacrifice as pennance for that sin. However, we sin more times than we can possibly know. There aren't enough animals in the world to get one person into heaven.

Fair? LOL. 1 person could sacrifice every animal on earth and still not be forgiven? Very fair. Eternal damnation for sinning? Joe Loser masturbates and just to be FAIR, god allows him to burn in hell for all eternity?



Your god is great, so fair and just.

alright Metalligod, im a little tired of quoting and unquoting and all that other stuff so hopefully i can clear everything up wiht this post:

u say alot of my stuff does not make any sence. i think this is because me and u have different deffinitions of what God is and what he can and cant do. ill start out with the things i think God can do which basically is ANYTHING.

i believe that God knows all that there is to be known and understands all that can be understood, controls all that will be known and understood(and knows and understands that too) has an infinit awarness, he is all powerful (he is not bound by anything AT ALL but his own will which is not really something that hinders your decisions), he is eternal (time has no effect on him, infact he is the reason why it exist). that is what i believe God is, but if God wanted to ofcourse he could temporaly or perminantly(which i would doubt) limit himself (like maybe saying "i dont want to have infinit awarness anymore!"

now u on the other hand (from what i can tell about from yer post), u apply human charactoristics to God and make him in a way "human-like". u have shown this to me by yer example of a person making a robot and the robot having sex (that is as far as im gonna go with that analogy or "'anal'-oh-gee"). you basically say that God is bound by things i say he aint.

i have reread my posts for 2nd time after i posted it and it makes clear sense to me.

now about the analogy that i made about the dude that rapes dead ppl that u seem to have a problem getting past and seeing the point. I DONT CARE HOW THE PERSON WHO VOWED TO BE SINNLESS KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER DUDES SEXUAL PREFFERENCE!!!!! the only thing that u should know about the necrophiliac dude is that he is EVIL, and thats it. he is just suppose to be an example of an evil person and the other person knows that he is evil, not neccisarrily that he is a necrophiliac. i aint gonna mention that anymore because i think that u may understand it.

ok ill quote u twice so here it goes:

1) about the

quote:Your full of it when you say if Jesus didn’t exist we’d all be spiritually dead. That more PIOUS BULL! Christianity is not the only freakin religion on the globe. And BTW: Christianity is also known as the bloodiest religion.

assuming that Christianity is the CORRECT religion in the world. and yes i am aware that Christians have been some of the most violent ppl on the planet (the crusades and stuff like that) but those were over power and had political agendas too. even now i dont agree with many christians i know. i am kinda a "Liberal" Christian in a way as opposed to those far right-wing conservative Christians that r all for Bush and dont agree with seperation of church and state.

2)and

quote: How can me saying I didn’t say, “Jesus wasn’t for us or God” be a contradiction. If I DIDN’T SAY IT, then what makes it a contradiction to something that I did say? Your not using your God given brain. I never said who Jesus was for when you had made the comment.

so r u saying these words didnt come out of yer fingers?: I never said that Jesus was for either us or God

i remember copying and pasting both strings of what YOU said from one of YOUR post. i in no way made any of them up.

now to point out the contridiction. u said that Jesus would not have had a purpose if God was all knowing. this can also mean "If God was NOT all knowing, Jesus would have a purpose". This DOES imply that Jesus was made to increase Gods knowledge and Jesus was FOR God. now the other quote that i pointed out that claimed that Jesus was not for either God or man is saying the opposite. that would then demish Jesus as someone who taught good values and stuff like many other men that existed.

ok that is what i have to say and i hope things have been cleared up for u, if not i am afraid there is nothing else i can do but recomend u reread everything.

-Soul Flayer

srry for the dbl post hehehe

[This message has been edited by soul flayer (edited 04-08-2004).]

Your problems are: You want to be right so bad, you ignore the truths. You miss the meanings of your own points.

If I befriend some1, and so far I'm as God calls it, an upright man. This person a I befriend is a necrophiliac, you say I would then be evil for being friends with him, even though I don't even know this dude does this. But still I should go to hell.

That's STUPID, no matter what angle you want to look at it from. And a god who would punish one for such a thing is evil, mean, and stupid.

And to believe it is right for someone to be punished for this, makes you stupid as well.

What if you were really close to your father, you were eachothers best friend. And he kills ppl for fun, but you don't know of this.

Should you then go to hell for being his friend?

By your own admission so far you believe you should. And you also believe that a god who does this to someone is pure, just, and loving.

Which makes you appear to be far more and more stupid than anyone would think one could be.

I mean, should a baby go to hell for loving his mother who also poisons men and take their money?

Now about the Jesus thing.

Pay close attention: I never said who Jesus was for.

But you came and said that I did, and it was contradictory to something that I previously said.

When indeed, before that statement I never made reference as to who he was for. I said only that if he was real, then I believe he was God, in the form of a man. And previously you said the same thing, that Jesus was God.

I've never said, "Jesus is was for God". Or, "Jesus was for man."

I did say Jesus would not have have a purpose if God WAS all knowing. That I did say, but that does not mean he was for anyone.

I said that he wouldn't have a purpose because, again I believe it was God in the form of man. God was Jesus, and that he made him so understand what it meant to be one of mankind. You then went on with the empathy thing.

I then stated that just because you can know what emotion some1 of a certain species feels, that doesn't mean you know or understand that feeling or what it's like to be them.

God could never know this cause He's not a man in spirit. If you made a robot that could feel and you programmed what it can feel, that doesn't mean you understand what it's like to be that robot, or that you feel what they feel the same way.

It's like if your mother dies and you feel extreme pain and anger and whatnot. Just because I've felt the pain of lose, of anger over such a thing, that does not mean that I know how it feels to you.

Because I'm not YOU! It could be more intense to you than it would be to me. And also I would have a better understanding of your pain because I'm human just as you are, than someone who is not.

It's the same as if a robot feels pain, you won't understand it the way another robot would.

Plz, tell me you understand now. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-09-2004).]

do i understand now? Yes. i understand what u view God as. i understood that awhile ago. like i mentioned in my previous post, u see God differently than i see him. u make God human-like and i dont. so u can stop with the "there is no way that God could fully understand man and whatnot". there is no way in hell ill believe that and i can assume there is no way in hell that i can make u see God the way i do.

about that analogy that i made that u still completely miss the point on since u have changed the meaning of what i was trying to prove. i was not trying to prove that u r evil if yer friends r evil. instead i was trying to prove that u r a HYPOCRIT if u say that u dont befriend evil ppl and u then befriend one. that better be clear as glass now.

and about u saying that u didnt contridict yerself in those statments i pulled up. u said that IF God knew everything Jesus wouldnt have a purpose. then that must mean that if God didnt know everything, he would have a purpose to send Jesus and u also said that u believe that God was Jesus incarnated and that in order for God to understand mankind he had to be a human which is what Jesus was for and u say that God doesnt know everything. this = Jesus was here to help God find out what it is like to be human.

u then claimed that Jesus wasnt for man or God.

this is starting to bore the fuck out of me so ill give u the last word since i hate having to repeat myself and restate my aruguements.

Wow Newdude, way to read have the story and form your opinion without reading the whole thing. It's not God's fault we don't follow his laws. Even still he made the biggest sacrifice he possibly could for us and people are still like "fuck god, he's a pussy".

quote:Originally posted by SEN D-F:

One could easily argue that Jesus was not without sin as by allowing himself to be killed he commited suicide.

The only sin is not having love, or "believing all things", as explained. Your argument is or course valid, but he did it with love. You could say he committed suicide and you would be correct from the point of view that he had some responsibility in what happened. Just realize this isn't the only point of view. There is always another point of view.

And this is another way to describe love. For all other subjects other than love, there is always another point of view to see it from.



[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 04-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by dr_rock:

If the reasons behind Jesus are really so complicated no wonder the biblical religions branched off after his time.

Right. Thats what is so neat about the concept that there is only ONE thing that is true, as I try to explain on page 2.

And thats what Jesus explained/demonstrated.



[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 04-09-2004).]

i have a bunch of athiest questions

why does god need worshipers, and why must we worship him, he makes it sound like he is doing us the favor, all we have to do is believe in him and he gives us eternal life, religion is just mans fear of death, his yearning for inmortality

how could jesus die for people he has never met and will never know, they say he died for our sins, but who asked him too, personally i think he was lynched and didn't have a choice, but his followers made it out so hes "dying for all of mans sins, he endured it for us"

how does him dying affect people he will never know, and never will know. (topic opener)

why do we need to believe in him, and the things he did in order to get in to heaven.

where do new souls come from, can heaven and hell never run out of room?

wtf is up with communion, i think satanists wrote that in to the religion as a joke, they sabotaged the relgion, and they laugh at all the idiots, who pretend a cracker is christs flesh and grape juice or wine his blood. why the fuck would we want to eat him and drink his blood, does that bring us closer to him? i call it canibalisim, i coulda swore it was wrong. its ok if your stuck with no food and there are dead corpses that serve no other purpose other then food. satanists have made christians canibles. that reminds me, canaibible, i need to get that.

i hate how a lot of christians act like they have it all figured out, they talk in absolutes, like they witnessed what they speak of. in the end they have no evidence and they go off of what they hear. i was saying how does jesus dying and being crucified affect our sins being forgiven, and my friend who argues at anything he can, says i get it, and i ask him to explain and he can't. wtf thats some old school shit, making living sacerfices in the name of a god. what are we tribal nomads?

i wish we had better technology, that way civilians could go out in to space and figure out some real stuff, instead of all this crap we have. as a whole man dissipoints me. most everybody dosen't believe that nine eleven was staged even though there is moutains of evidence. older generations think im stupid for saying things like the wtc was a contolled demolition, jet fuel dosen't melt steel, a hole left in the building from a plane causing the building to collapse would cause the building to tip over and not fall in to itself. it reminds me of that game rampage, punching a building a few times or jumping on it and then it just crumbles in to the ground. how can the goverment have that tight a grip. most older people are stupid as fuck, they refuse to keep an open mind, their way of thinking is so well controlled, its frustrating how they try to get you to believe in christianity and push it on you, but if you try to get them to believe in a few, very likley conspiracy theorys, thier opinion of you lowers. what is the world coming to when we are this stupid. i want to build a time machine and go in to the future, where hopefully future generations are smarter.



Let me say this, i witnessed a man keeping a puppy in the house when all others told him to let it outside to shit or else it will shit on the carpet. he says no i love this puppy. when it shits he picks it up and slams it in to the ground, its back or neck is broken and it yelps till its dead minutes later, all this in front of the mother of the puppy, a dog. i go to school and try to forget the horror. when i come back the man tells me that he had a little talk with god and his sins have been forgiven. how is that right just or fair, to be able to do wrong things and have them cleansed away, and be granted eternal life. depending on what sect, there is a number of ways to get rid of your sins. Well christians, i have this thing called a conscience that dosen't allow me to do what i believe is wrong. but christians can do as much wrong doing as they please, as long as they wipe thier sins clean before they die. can anybody see why i hate the godamn religion. people can use it as a shield.

[This message has been edited by Kendjo (edited 04-09-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Kendjo (edited 04-09-2004).]

I'm going to chalt this one up to: You have a fatal learning disability.

You get mad cause you make an analogy, I then propose a situation that you have by your own admission, think in the case, the person should indeed go to hell. And that they are a hypocrit. You are a hypocrit, and not a very smart one either. You make points that are severely flawed in reason, judgement, and intelligence.

I will let this subject go, because you simply refuse to learn. Your remarks are pious, and imbecilic. You want so very bad to be right and it kills your arguments. I don't make God, human-like, I don't make Him anything. I go by what ppl say and show them how one part of their view contradicts the other.

Anyone who read our posts from beggining to end will see that what I've said about you was not concoctions of malice but truth.

They will see that what I've said about 'your' God (and I litterally mean yours alone) were statments that would be true, in the event that things happened the way you say.

They would be able to see that you are infallably dumb. I've said several times IN BOLD LETTERS, that if God knew everything Jesus would NOT, NOT have a purpose.

For some fuckin reason you continue to say Jesus would have a purpose. Which brings me to my next point.

Your insanely stupid!!! You constantly add things that I don't say, to make a point that is useless because I indeed did not say what you for some reason believe I have said. You hear what you wanna hear, or in this case read what you wanna read!

It is your belief that God has made us a creature of reason but not to question Him because what He does is right and just. Even if someone by your own analogy, does not know that they've committed a sin, they should go to hell.

And these things you call sin aren't even sin. You say befriending an evil person make you evil, even in the event you don't know of the evil things this person does.

Your a sick, sad imbecile, who would agree with a being of supposed infinite intelligence and understanding, punishes the innocent.

Everyone could see from our posts that you avoid questions that you know makes your belief stupid. For instance: Would you send someone to hell that you loved?

Anyone who reads our posts would see that you don't even know the definition of the words you use. God means all knowing, what a dumbass! You have no powerful arguments and you make your God look like a shit for brains wht supremist.

Have a nice Day!

quote:why does god need worshipers, and why must we worship him, he makes it sound like he is doing us the favor, all we have to do is believe in him and he gives us eternal life, religion is just mans fear of death, his yearning for immortality

God doesn't need us to worship him at all, and if we don't want to we don't have to. Worship is a way of expressing love. If you love something enough you naturally want to worship it. It's also a way of developing a relationship with god. Take deities for instance. If you believe that the deity represents god and you worship it, as time goes on you will see the deities as god and not just statues. Then you can use these deities to express your love.

But God doesn't need worshipping and we are not required to.

Religeon maybe a fear of death to some, but some people would probably rather not exist if God didn't. For others religeon is a way to understand life, express love for God blah blah.

quote:how could jesus die for people he has never met and will never know, they say he died for our sins, but who asked him too, personally i think he was lynched and didn't have a choice, but his followers made it out so hes "dying for all of mans sins, he endured it for us"

Jesus was an enlightened soul. He had a connection with God, who in turn is connected with all other souls.

Maybe Jesus didn't die for our sins, but it's believed that Yogi masters can absorb the negative Karma (Sins) of other people. Perhaps Jesus did this, and his dying on the cross was the paying off of that negative karma. Maybe not, try thinking about it a bit.

quote:why do we need to believe in him, and the things he did in order to get in to heaven

We don't, that's just the belief of certain people. We can get to heaven faster by following his example. It's all about learning. You can learn fast or slow, it's your choice. Eventually you learn who you are in relation to everything ele, but it takes years and lifetimes of experience.

quote:where do new souls come from, can heaven and hell never run out of room?

Imagine a big block of ice, that being god. Take a small peice of ice off it and there you have a new soul. God however is infinate, so the block of ice would never shrink.

Heaven or hell (If hell exists) are not physical places. They are most likely states of consciousness. Heaven being ultra clarity and freedom of mind, and hell possibly being a state of being trapped in fear and utter confusion.



Remember that christianity is only 1 religeon. There are many more. If you studied a few just a little you might start noticing close connections that actually start to make good sense.

Soul flayer and Metalligod, please shut the fuck up.

I find it pretty ironic that in a forum dealing with spiritual issues the "Ego" rears it's head more times than anywhere else.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

I find it pretty ironic that in a forum dealing with spiritual issues the "Ego" rears it's head more times than anywhere else.

Yes, it is very ironic for the ego to pop up in correlation with the Christian God.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Soul flayer and Metalligod, please shut the fuck up...

Beany, plz leave me out of your posts, you INBRED-BITCH!

Every post I've made in here it's been about the topic, things that back up my view in the topic, and things that support what I've said about someone elses view on the topic.

SAVE FOR THIS ONE.

If you don't like democracy so what, fuckin intolerate asswhipe!

If you have stupid shit to say, leave me out of it. I don't care for your whining, I don't care for your attitude on the matter. And as far as concerned your the one who should shut the fuck up!

What you've said was way off base from the issues. You you had the ability to cognize, you'd kow what you've read had nothing to do with ego on my part. I had facts, and plausable ideas.

I guess you were expecting ppl to go "yeah, you tell em, blah blah blah"

With your ego, you've defeated the purpose of your post.

Now 1,2,3, here it goes.

Eat shit and die slow BITCH!

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-09-2004).]

Was that some sort of hint as to God's true location? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Edit: This was to Crusader.

[This message has been edited by Hexadecimal (edited 04-09-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

I've said several times IN BOLD LETTERS

Yeah, enough with the bold. If you have something you want to emphasize, bold it. But your whole post? Come on.

Metalligod, you needed a verbal slap to stop your none productive bickering.

Relax.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Wow Newdude, way to read have the story and form your opinion without reading the whole thing. It's not God's fault we don't follow his laws. Even still he made the biggest sacrifice he possibly could for us and people are still like "fuck god, he's a pussy".

Biggest sacrifice? How? He came back to life. Where's the sacrifice? He's omnipotent. He cannot be harmed. He's omniscient. He knew he would come back to life.

The following isnt my quote, and unfortunately I dont know the author otherwise I would give he/she credit.

A sacrifice is not a sacrifice by definition if you get back what you supposedly sacrificed. At best, Jesus can be considered to have been inconvenienced for your sins.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Metalligod, you needed a verbal slap to stop your none productive bickering.

Relax.

I understand, I've not had a good day.

Plz, excuse my venomous words. But you too, should try to present what you say in a less hostile way.

I too have this problem, I'm only a stinkin human.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Plz, excuse my venomous words. But you too, should try to present what you say in a less hostile way.



Sorry dude.

It wasn't supposed to sound as hostile as it did, but kinda like how you'd say it to mates if they were arguing. I better be more careful.

hey metalligod it seems like you really have been thinking this kinda stuff through. heh you should search google for christian viewpoints on why God does what he does. some people posted some answer very close tot he mark.

Can you say "myth"?

Can anyone please define what exactly is meant by the term 'sin' that is used so frequently in the discussion? This is a serious question. If is is so easy to sin, there must be something in human design that causes it. I would welcome any replies that could shed some light on this issue.

OK,

so someone asked about why hell exists if god is all forgiving? well, actually, god didn't create hell in case you didn't notice. Lucifer, an archangel of god, rebelled against god, and became a fallen angel. He created his own dimension, hell. The reason why you go to hell is, well, by living the life which is described as a life that will get you into hell, you have effectivley made a pact with lucifer and he owns your soul, which is why your soul goes to his dimension.

As for saying no one can answer where god came from, the concept of coming from somewhere is an earthly one, or at least one of the physical universe where everthing is made of material matter and where things such as time exist. All material matter had to have been created at some point in time, but because god is not material matter and since he lives in heaven, a spiritual realm, there is no concept of time or having to come from somewhere, because nothing there is material matter.

This is exteremly incomprehensible for a human because well, they are material and live on earth where everything is material and everything had to be created once, so it is impossible for them to fully understand the spiritual realm and its workings in terms of the fact that nothing had to be created at anyone time and nothing had to create it, much like it is quite impossible for a human to not be able to understand the concept of there not being time.

As for there being no answer to where god came from in the bible, the bible states that no one can understand god and his workings, and although wise men claim to, they do not, and they are deluded on this. It says no one can understand god a/ his workings people need not, it is not neccesary, because people just need god to live through god and dont have to know how it works.

You people make me sick. Instead of arguing using logic, you use your religion/belief to counteract someone elses. What makes your belief more valid? Nothing. There is no proof God does exist, there is no proof God doesn't exist. I prefer not to give a fuck, as I'd like a high chance of going to hell before I choose worshipping a father figure shaking his finger from way back when.

I'm not coming back to this thread, so don't bother replying to me.

id tell ya, but 78 other people already did.