This is to discuss all the topics on the religion site here. And to relate all the arguments to one concept. In other words, all the arguments made here are based upon one religious belief that is prevalent; that all questions and arguments that are being undertaken, have a right answer to them and that we just need to get the other person to see what the right answer is.

But how is that a religious belief? To think that there is a right answer to a question is a religious belief, because the thinker believes in the "right" answer. No matter what else he says he believes in, you know that he believes the answer to this question he is defending. In other words, he has faith in this answer, whatever it is, whatever the subject is.

So actually, he has absolute faith in whatever he is defending. For example, he believes that we think, therefore we exist. He has faith in this idea, and therefore no matter what the circumstance, he maintains his faith in this idea. This idea might as well be his god. He idolizes this idea. He finds no bad or fault in this idea.

He might have some other idea that he also believes in and finds no fault in, that seems unrelated to this other idea. Maybe he believes the earth orbits around the sun, or that an elephant is bigger than a mouse. He also idolizes these ideas: there is nothing wrong with them, he thinks.

Each one of these ideas is one of his gods. He has many gods. The trouble is that his friend has a different set of ideas that he believes in. Many of his friend's ideas will be the same. Say they both believe the earth orbits the sun. Each of them has a set of ideas he believes in, but nobody has identical sets. So we have disagreements.

Some of us like disagreements, but they are not ultimately satisfying. Arguing and fighting bring some temporary victories and happinesses, but then the next time or sometime, you lose, and then you are the unhappy one.

Each thinker's set of ideas he believes in, constitutes his religion, his personal religion, you could say. He may also subscribe to a group religion. Each one of these also has a set of ideas, or doctrines, that is believed in, supposedly, by the individual members. The religion may say it believes in god, but they also believe in each of their doctrines just as much. They have multiple gods actually.

(to be continued)

[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 04-11-2004).]

[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 04-14-2004).]

So it turns out that there is only one belief that you can have that overcomes these problems. Only one belief that thinkers can have where they can all share the same belief. Any other belief besides this one, will eventually lead to divisions and arguments.

So what are the characteristics of the one "correct" belief. One is that it is able to contain or explain opposites; opposite findings, explanations, observations, points of view.

Another characteristic is that belief in it does not cause people to give up the things they love. People are usually defensive against completely agreeing with some one else, because they are afraid they are going to be controlled, and have things taken from them.

Why does everyone on totse argue about everything? They are afraid they will lose an argument or a belief, and have to make changes. Because all religions or concepts, except one, are simply rules that require you to do or think certain things. There is only one that does not.

So you say that I would have you believe "my" way, and take your individuality away from you? But I would say that believing "my" way contains all the individual ways of believing, and releases you from your enslavement to rules and oppressive beliefs.

External reality doesn't care whether we like how it works.

One can believe whatever they want.

What exists remains unchanged, however.

To accept what seems to be the "correct" answer to a question due to rational thought is hardly like belief in a god.

As for the belief that "does not cause people to give up the things they love," what are you trying to say? That makes no sense, to me.

quote:Originally posted by ashesofzen:

External reality doesn't care whether we like how it works.

You are stating your belief in reality here.

quote:What exists remains unchanged, however.

Your belief in (un)change.



quote:To accept what seems to be the "correct" answer to a question due to rational thought is hardly like belief in a god.

You are right. There are differences from belief in a god. There are also similarities, which I was focusing on.

quote:As for the belief that "does not cause people to give up the things they love," what are you trying to say? That makes no sense, to me.

If a person accepts a religion with it's belief system, there will be things, beliefs, activities, in their old belief system, or set of beliefs, that will conflict with some of the new dogma. These have to be given up.

With the belief that I am supporting, only one thing must be given up, and only one new belief taken up.

Regardless wether we argue or not, the only thing that we can express to each other are our differences, even if we don't notice them. Simply becaue we are not the same person.

quote:Originally posted by ilbastardoh:

Simply because we are not the same person.This is an example of a belief, the kind we all have, that are kinda automatic and not subjected to scrutiny, except when we get in an argument or "discussion" with someone, and they attack it as much as we defend it, producing nothing but disagreement and inflexibility.

Do you believe your statement without exception, or do you think there might be some circumstances in which it seems we are not different, as much as it seems right now we are all different people?

For example, what if we look at it as if we are all part of the hologram known as God?



[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 04-15-2004).]

And, have you subjected your ideas that led you to start this topic to the same intense scrutiny?

quote:Originally posted by ashesofzen:

And, have you subjected your ideas that led you to start this topic to the same intense scrutiny?

Well yes, although the intensity is a relative deal. In other words, I am comparing myself in order to answer yes. If I compared myself to the ultimate though, then I could answer you "no".

But this type of scrutiny is an ongoing process and the journey is the goal. And I always forget it needs to be done with humor.

Well at least in this world we carry out our functions as separate entities, this is what our perception tells us. I don't feel however that this is nessicarly true. Perhaps we are unaware of a higher framework of reality, in which we all are as one. What i'm saying is that this world is like a chain reaction. I say something to you, which causes you to be at exaclty the right place for you to tell someone else, something, which causes that person to do or say something, etc, till infinity. If you look at it from that perspective, then in a way every thing was meant to happen and the chances of the same order of events occuring in the same exact pattern are infinitely small. Almost as if they were miracles, or the least likely thing to occur.

Humor, perhaps, is mankind's only hope.

Or, I may just be having a bout of misanothropy.

I've found that humor all contains the rapid alternation of our thoughts between opposite, "contradictory", ideas. This description doesn't sound very funny, but that is what happens. And it causes our diaphragm to rapidly alternate between opposite positions and create laughter.

This phenomena is present in all that can be observed or thought of .

And it is mankinds only hope.

quote:Originally posted by ilbastardoh:

Well at least in this world we carry out our functions as separate entities, this is what our perception tells us.

Our perception that is a result of our current viewpoint

quote:I don't feel however that this is nessicarly true.True from one perspective, untrue from another.

quote:Perhaps we are unaware of a higher framework of reality, in which we all are as one.A different perspective which you lay out below.

quote: What i'm saying is that this world is like a chain reaction. I say something to you, which causes you to be at exaclty the right place for you to tell someone else, something, which causes that person to do or say something, etc, till infinity. If you look at it from that perspective, then in a way every thing was meant to happen and the chances of the same order of events occuring in the same exact pattern are infinitely small. Almost as if they were miracles, or the least likely thing to occur.Looking at it from the perspective of after it all having already happened. Another way to say this is that the perspective changes the reality, which quantum theory discusses on a subatomic level.