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nevermind
2004-04-15, 13:34
As far as i have understood from the Bible, hell does not exist. I have also seen a lot of people on totse say along the lines of "if god is so loving why is there hell?" ect... and then a load of answers that dont really get anyone anywhere. This is what i hope to clear up the whole issue-it maybe a long post, so bare with me.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Definition: The Hebrew she’ohl´ and its Greek equivalent hai´des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge´en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction.

<LI>Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

<LI>Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

<LI> Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

<LI> What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?[b/]

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

<LI>[b]After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

</UL>

A long post i know, but i hope this clears up a lot of questions surrounding hell. -reference from encyclopedia americana and reasoning from the scriptures

-edit-made it easier to read

[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 04-15-2004).]

inquisitor_11
2004-04-16, 10:21
Just to let you know, while it is admirable that you are trying to figure these things out for yourself, I very much doubt that in one post on totse that you will be able to make a weak fringe doctrine stick. Especially in the face of 2000yrs of Eastern, Catholic and Protestant theology.

skoolboy_arts
2004-04-16, 14:48
yes there is a hell...god made hell because he loves us...i know you dont get it but il clear it out....since god is so loving,he made a place (hell) for the people who dont want to follow him,to go to...u know,satan was from god you know..just like what hapend to lucifer

nevermind
2004-04-16, 17:45
quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Just to let you know, while it is admirable that you are trying to figure these things out for yourself, I very much doubt that in one post on totse that you will be able to make a weak fringe doctrine stick. Especially in the face of 2000yrs of Eastern, Catholic and Protestant theology.

true, but then i wanted to field a argument that people who are confused by religion, and the religious points brought across on totse, a second opionion when it comes to hell. it may help someone

nevermind
2004-04-16, 17:48
quote:Originally posted by skoolboy_arts:

yes there is a hell...god made hell because he loves us...i know you dont get it but il clear it out....since god is so loving,he made a place (hell) for the people who dont want to follow him,to go to...u know,satan was from god you know..just like what hapend to lucifer

i hope your being sarcastic. So you choose to ignore the points raised from the bible itself. then people wonder why the churches are so hypocritical, and get confused about the whole "if god loved us then why did he make hell?" he doesnt torture people, hell doesnt exist, death exists because of sin-thats the punishment for sins, not hell. Go read it in the bible.

---Beany---
2004-04-16, 17:49
quote:Originally posted by skoolboy_arts:

yes there is a hell...god made hell because he loves us...i know you dont get it but il clear it out....since god is so loving,he made a place (hell) for the people who dont want to follow him,to go to...u know,satan was from god you know..just like what hapend to lucifer



Don't be daft. If someone didn't want to follow god why couldn't they go somewhere less torturous?

Hardly any of us follow god right now. Even if we believe in god it doesn't mean we follow him. To follow him is to surrender to the moment and accept anything that happens as perfect instead of trying to direct the situations by ourselves.

We don't know what's perfect for us, but God/life does. This is fate. Our fates are perfect but we try to escape fate and control it ourselves, but since we don't know what "perfect" is, we make cruddy choices and avoid a perfect fate by thinking about how create our own. Eventually we'll give up trying, we'll realise that we can't create the happiness we yearn for and we'll simply give up and surrender to god (This is actually our minds surrendering to the power of our souls, but that's another subject).

God has given us the choice to follow him/fate or to create our own fate, but since we don't yet understand true happiness we can never create a fate that'll satisfy us.

This is hell. Not following god is constantly avoiding moments out of fear of what they could mean. Therefor "fear" will always have this hold on us which prevents us from being comlpetely free.... liberated.

The hell you xians talk about is a metaphor if anything and it's one that none of you understand.



[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 04-16-2004).]

ashesofzen
2004-04-16, 18:18
Excellent post, Beany.

Beany:

We don't know what's perfect for us, but God/life does. This is fate. Our fates are perfect but we try to escape fate and control it ourselves, but since we don't know what "perfect" is, we make cruddy choices and avoid a perfect fate by thinking about how create our own. Eventually we'll give up trying, we'll realise that we can't create the happiness we yearn for and we'll simply give up and surrender to god (This is actually our minds surrendering to the power of our souls, but that's another subject).

Even when we make seem to be "cruddy choices," we are still following our fate, as it were. Our actions are the perfect way for us to live--it's how we do, in fact, live. It is merely our personal dislike for inconvenience or displeasure that puts a "spin" on what we've done.

No matter what we do, it all works out in the end. One always ends up at point "D," whether he goes through "B" or "C," or both/neither, to get there.

---Beany---
2004-04-16, 19:49
Thanx ashesofzen. Yeah there is the fate that God provides and the fate that we provide ourselves. It's all mixed and matched depending on our state of mind at the time. We are more likely to experience a more Godly fate when we are in a super relaxed state of mind. This is when we get on with things without even thinking about it.

But yeah It's nice that you get what I'm talking about.

SEN D-F
2004-04-16, 23:25
quote:Originally posted by skoolboy_arts:

yes there is a hell...god made hell because he loves us...i know you dont get it but il clear it out....since god is so loving,he made a place (hell) for the people who dont want to follow him,to go to...u know,satan was from god you know..just like what hapend to lucifer

Wow, I'll take your baseless claims over his evidence and biblical quotes anyday! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

And let me ask you something, why does god need to torture non-believers for eternity to show he loves his followers? Thats like saying you need to beat and torture all the kids who are't friends with your children to show you love your kids! Its rediculous.

SEN D-F
2004-04-16, 23:30
Oh, and hes not necessarilly saying 'Hell' doesn't exist [as in a place where non-believers go] he saying its death of the soul; nonexistance. Rather then eternal torture and pain. 'Hell' is merly a label, you can call it bibble-dee-goop for fucks sake, its the nature of the place that matters. Thats how I see it anyways.

dearestnight_falcon
2004-04-17, 08:39
quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

As far as i have understood from the Bible, hell does not exist. I have also seen a lot of people on totse say along the lines of "if god is so loving why is there hell?" ect... and then a load of answers that dont really get anyone anywhere. This is what i hope to clear up the whole issue-it maybe a long post, so bare with me.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Definition: The Hebrew she’ohl´ and its Greek equivalent hai´des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge´en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction.

<LI>Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

<LI>Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

<LI> Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

<LI> What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?[b/]

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

<LI>[b]After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

</UL>

A long post i know, but i hope this clears up a lot of questions surrounding hell. -reference from encyclopedia americana and reasoning from the scriptures

-edit-made it easier to read

[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 04-15-2004).]

I was going to post exactly the same thing a couple of days ago, but I didnt have as much stuff to back it up.

Great post though, and I totally agree.

Except that you can't really prove anything with Ecclesiastes, its Solomans rant on the pointlessness of life, rather then "Gods word"

Although I suppose not everyone is certain it was Solomon that wrote it

skoolboy_arts
2004-04-17, 10:51
god made hell to make us learn...cus,u guys r misled by the bibile cus u only read it by line...thats whats fucked up bout non catholic christians...u have to read the whole story and get the moral lesson...cus the moral lesson,is the real thing u shud know,absorb and understand...god made hell for us!

---Beany---
2004-04-17, 11:34
quote:Originally posted by skoolboy_arts:

god made hell to make us learn

Think dammit think!! Break out of your pathetic conditioning or you'll never understand anything.

It's life and living that teaches us, not the hell you talk about.

Have you not noticed that people get more wiser the older they get. Experience leads to wisdom. Wisdom is understanding life.

We live, we learn, we become liberated. Those who "Sin" simply haven't learnt yet, but they will. It's only a matter of time and experience.

There is no need for a hell. Time leads people to god.

inquisitor_11
2004-04-17, 11:46
How can hell be about learning? I think Surah originally posted this argument- and its right? Whats the point of burning in hell to learn a lesson that you are never going to be able to apply?

*I'd say* that God created us as eternal beings. Post-physical death something has to be done with us and that leaves eternity with God or eternity without, and no in between.

nevermind
2004-04-17, 14:50
quote:Originally posted by skoolboy_arts:

god made hell to make us learn...cus,u guys r misled by the bibile cus u only read it by line...thats whats fucked up bout non catholic christians...u have to read the whole story and get the moral lesson...cus the moral lesson,is the real thing u shud know,absorb and understand...god made hell for us!

okay, so i have read the whole bible and i do understand the whole moral point of it...the whole point of the bible is a chronicle of events scince humans fucked up, and what god means to do about it.

the Catholic church in its own Catholic encyclopedia says that there is no hell . this book is published by the vatican, but the vatican says Catholic doctrine is more important than the bible's message!! fucking hypocritical or what? you say you base the religion on the bible, but then dissmiss anything it says to keep your fucked up reasoning alive.

The Pope, the whole Catholic church is a fucking liar. face it. Catholic Doctrine more important than the bible my ass.....

nevermind
2004-04-17, 15:17
another point here.... Lazarus was ressurected by Jesus. If Lazarus was in hell, wouldnt something of been said about it by Lazarus? Or if he had gone to heaven, then wouldnt he be mighty pissed that he got taken down from heavenly paradise to live back on this earth again??

kromlic
2004-04-17, 18:02
Gods = Way of explaining natural phenomena to the weak minded/harted and the people with as much logic George Bush.

mechanik
2004-04-18, 01:36
quote:Originally posted by kromlic:

Gods = Way of explaining natural phenomena to the weak minded/harted and the people with as much logic George Bush.If I had to agree with someone, it would be you.

Mr. Jack
2004-04-18, 07:25
The word Hell means grave.