.... That the 'virgin mary' could have just been raped? I mean seriously... i'm sure she was the one who went around and said she was pregnant but didn't have sex. So maybe she was just raped. She maybe had too much to drink and passed out, or she could have been drugged, or maybe she was anemic and passed out and then was raped? Now think about this; If she wasn't raped, and really did not have sex to produce jesus, where did those extra chromosomes come from? Jesus really and truly couldn't be the son of god if it was god that made this pregnacy possible without sex, because that would mean god would somehow have to put his DNA into mary, which would make god human. And i think it's made very clear that god is not human. So if God did make her pregnant, then maybe God took some of mary's own DNA and put it into and egg cell to get the 48 or however many chromosomes is needed. If this is the case and there was no outside DNA put into mary, then that would make Jesus mary's clone. this is just a little weird theory of mine. Anyone have any ideas?

When discussing miracles you really shouldn't focus so much on the laws of physics and biology.

Why not? Because you might discredit the bullshit?

Applying substantiate, scientific laws and principles to phenomena is rather paradoxical.

Actually, it isn't. It makes absolute sense to apply science to a situation.

I was born asexually from a man, and am the son of God. In 20 years I'm going to feed a bunch of starving Ethiopians with a single can of tuna. 2000 years later people will question those accounts.

Now, I can claim that all I want, I could even write stories about it happening, or ask friends to do so. Still though, if one applies logic to it, one finds that it is utter bullshit, just as many will do with a lot of the stories in the Bible.

You've completely missed the point I was making. No one's arguing with the absurdity of the phenomena, only the inevitable contradiction of applying logical reasoning to it. It wouldn't be a miracle if it didn't break the laws of science.

"Virgin" mary was a prostitute. It sounds far fetched but do some research into it.

I understand that; I also understand the capacity of humans to exaggerate first-hand accounts to sensationalize them. Which is why we must apply logic to first-hand accounts, it's the only way to determine the bullshit from the truth, though thanks to our good friend cognitive dissonance, even one who knows what they have faith in is utter bullshit can wholeheartedly maintain said faith.

quote:Originally posted by WristSlitter:

.... That the 'virgin mary' could have just been raped?...

I've asked and exclaimed this to ppl many times.

I think she was raped, but by God though. This ghost, comes and inseminates her against her will. That's an extreme violation, aka rape.

quote:Originally posted by RvK:

"Virgin" mary was a prostitute. It sounds far fetched but do some research into it.

Prove it.

And the Crusader is right.

[This message has been edited by Direckshun (edited 04-19-2004).]

yea she was a big fat american prostitute mothersucker and i fucked her all day long on a sofa ... basicaly , i raped the biotch + made her pregnant

so im god

(well if jesus is the son of god)

so now bow down on your motherfucking knees punks. and say : God is the best!!!

quote:Originally posted by RvK:

"Virgin" mary was a prostitute. It sounds far fetched but do some research into it.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Mary Magdelene, but she wasn't actually a prostitute anyway, in all probability it was just some slander early Christian leaders, probably Peter and/or James, threw around to make sure she didn't become a force in the up and coming religion, and possibly because she was a woman, and they didn't want to be overshadowed by some woman.

trying to reconciliate religious beleif with what can be considered as 'fact' by historians will only lead to argument. the most logical way Jesus son of joseph was conceived is from joseph and mary. afterall they were married, mary was over 13, so they were bound to be shagging.

but thats a bit boring for a book about the greatness of god, masking Mary into a virgin gives her a pure representation, untouched by sin... now this sounds better for religious folk who link body with sin.

so yes it is normal to apply reason to stories you hear, but bibl;e bashers like the crusader will always go on about how it needs to be illogical for it to be a miracle

Wasn't Marry married? The night of marriage, ppl do something called, consummation. In which the man fucks the woman. Therefore she could not have been a virgin. Joseph had to tap that ass when they were married. So she could not have been a virgin. That's Christian custom, and also was in marriages of other religions. So how then could she have been a virgin.

ok hex, i hafta agree with the others when they try and tell you that in order to be a miracle it has to break the laws of science and logic. next up: if someone believes god is all powerful then why the fuck couldnt he have created jesus through mary? next: pointed at all the doubters of religions who think science and logic are the ultimate answers- you all seem to think that god is just a creation outta someones head and made important because the masses fall for it. hmm sounds awfully close to logic to me. not dissin logic just sayin that its an idea created by the human mind. dont even try and argue that. and since logic is god that would make science religion. wow they both try and make sense of the world and give explanations to the unexplainable. religions-such as christianity- were generally developed thousands of years ago durin a time when it was harder for people to distinguish between imagination and reality (or mebbe they didnt want to or mebbe imagination is reality,but thats a whole other thread unto itself) so using the best tool they had to explain stuff i.e their own mind they created religion. nowadays science uses what we deem our best tools (technology) to explain the unexplanable.

just tryin to open your minds guys not bashin you. dont dismiss religion because you cant open your mind enough to let your imagination have some control.

Have you EVER witnessed a Scientific Law being broken? Have you every seen a Theory disproven, or shown to be illogical, and then defended to the death rather than being abolished?

Miracles are the result of oral tradition and limitless use of hyperbole...they didn't really happen.

Science is NOT religion. Science deals strictly with the Who, What, Where, When, and How. Religion deals with Why because the answer to Why can be complete and utter bullshit without the slightest bit of contrary evidence. That is why I can still be open-minded and ponder about the Why, but realize that it's completely meaningless if there is no way to discern truth from bullshit.

I actually think religion is important to humanity due to our massive fear of death and the unknown. People don't know what happens when we die, so they seek comfort. Even if it makes no sense, they will believe it to ease their fears. Who wants to live a life of fear? I'm rather sure that nobody does. Some are able to do it without religion, some aren't. I have nothing against religous people; they comfort themselves with their faith, I comfort myself with apathy.

Also, you can call me close-minded all you want, but until you know my experiences with religion, I don't value your opinion on my ability to take shit into consideration.

quote:Originally posted by spyxero:

ok hex, i hafta agree with the others when they try and tell you that in order to be a miracle it has to break the laws of science and logic. next up: if someone believes god is all powerful then why the fuck couldnt he have created jesus through mary? next: pointed at all the doubters of religions who think science and logic are the ultimate answers- you all seem to think that god is just a creation outta someones head and made important because the masses fall for it. hmm sounds awfully close to logic to me. not dissin logic just sayin that its an idea created by the human mind. dont even try and argue that. and since logic is god that would make science religion. wow they both try and make sense of the world and give explanations to the unexplainable. religions-such as christianity- were generally developed thousands of years ago durin a time when it was harder for people to distinguish between imagination and reality (or mebbe they didnt want to or mebbe imagination is reality,but thats a whole other thread unto itself) so using the best tool they had to explain stuff i.e their own mind they created religion. nowadays science uses what we deem our best tools (technology) to explain the unexplanable.

just tryin to open your minds guys not bashin you. dont dismiss religion because you cant open your mind enough to let your imagination have some control.

Mary, mother of Jesus, God (if It exists) and Jesus' father (if he exists) are the only people who could even possibly know who the father of Jesus was.

Mary says it was God. God say nothing (but It doesn't say anything about anything, so whatever). The hypothetical father is unknown.

Now, Mary has a reason to claim it was a virgin birth - unmarried nonvirgins weren't very popular at the time.

Now what's more likely - Mary had sex with/was raped by somebody she shouldn't have, or Mr. Invisible comes down from heaven and impregnates her?

Not much contest, really.

ok Hex, callin you closed minded may have been goin a bit far, but to call something complete and utter bullshit is complete and uttetr bullshit unto itself. a scientific theory cannot be proven illogical because logic is the controlling force of science. can you show me a piece of religion that is ungodly? not contrary to another piece of religion but contrary to god itself? remember that scientific theories arent always definites. it was once thought without doubt that to go over 50 miles an hour would destroy the human body. then someone did it and the speed went higher til it was determined tht it probably wont kill as at any speed. science seems unlike religion because it is allowed to change while other religions appear like they cant. but remember, at one point to say the planets orbit the sun was a deathwish. you say science deals with the why the how and all this but think of christianity, it simply does hte same. take jesus for example. his job was to save us (according to christians) how? by dying and absolving our sins. why? cuz otherwise we go to hell. sure it takes a leap of faith to believe this but in my opinion it takes a leap of faith to believe that its impossible to travel at the speed of light

Scientific claims were death wishes BECAUSE of religion and the necessity of warping science to their whim to preserve the faith. We can't be losing believers just because they decide to believe that with evidence and disbelief that without.

did i say it wasnt because of religion? no. stupid arse. i was just showing you how it changed like science has. well not religion but christianity.

I have this mental image of God, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus on the Jerry Springer Show with a paternity test, fighting and cursing. That would be hilarious.

Argh! I just spent half an hour typing a reply and i got screwed when i tried to post... i couldn't be arsed doing it again.

This will do:

That Mary's child was conceived out of marrige is undisputed. As is that 30 yrs later her child claimed that he was the promised Messiah.

Virgin birth, along with a number of other events surrounding the Messiah's birth, outside of their control were among prophecy the Messiah would fulfill.

Part of this was the Messiah's geneology. For Jews culture and identity your lineage was crucial, and as such if Yeshua's linegae didn't met that which was required for the Messiah, the authorities of the time would have quickly brought it to light. Same with some other events/ locations. However, the Jewish polemics only really adressed the nature of his birth- something unverifiable that could at best be "Jerry Springer-esque", rather than that which was easily verifiable.

The Koran also attributes virgin birth to Yeshua.

Re: Miracles in general

"It is therefor inaccurate to define a miracle as something that breaks the laws of Nature. It doesn't. If I knock out my pipe I alter the position of a great many atoms: in the long run, and to an infinitesimal degree, of all the atoms there are. Nature digests or assimilates the event with perfect ease and harmonizes it in a twinkling with all other events... If God creates a miraculous spermatozoon in the body of a virgin, it does not proceed to break any laws. The laws at once take over . Nature is ready. Pregnancy follows according to all the normal laws, and none months later a child is born...If events come from beyond nature altogether she will (not) be incommoded by them. Be sure that she will rush to the point where she is invaded as the defensive forces rush to a cut on our finger, and there hasto accomodate the newcommer. The moment it enters her realm it will obey all her laws." - C.S. Lewis (again)

"The clinching argument for the importance of miracles is that God thought they were important enough to use them to found and perpetuate his Church.

In fact, all the essential and distinctive elements of Christianity are miracles: creation, revelation (first to Jews), the giving of the laws, prophesies, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Second Coming and Last Judgement.

Subtract miracles from Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, or Taoism, and you have essentially the same religion left. Subtract miracles from Christianity, and you have nothing but cliches and platitudes most American Christians get weekly (and weakly) from their pulpits. Nothing distinctive, no reason to be a Christian rather than something else."

- P. Kreeft

The proper translation is not virgin. It's young woman. I think she wasn't raped, but I think somehting else was going on there.

quote:Originally posted by The Crusader:

You've completely missed the point I was making. No one's arguing with the absurdity of the phenomena, only the inevitable contradiction of applying logical reasoning to it. It wouldn't be a miracle if it didn't break the laws of science.

oh, so IVF treatment is a miricle is it? Or making a female rat pregnant by using dna from another female rat?

If we can do that, then surely a intelligent creature being around for many more years can use proteins and enzymes to make some chromasomes and make a woman pregnant whos a virgin.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

oh, so IVF treatment is a miricle is it? Or making a female rat pregnant by using dna from another female rat?

If we can do that, then surely a intelligent creature being around for many more years can use proteins and enzymes to make some chromasomes and make a woman pregnant whos a virgin.

Aliens!!! now there's an arguement that will convince everybody!!!

(p.s. for americans: thats sarcasm)

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Wasn't Marry married? The night of marriage, ppl do something called, consummation. In which the man fucks the woman. Therefore she could not have been a virgin. Joseph had to tap that ass when they were married. So she could not have been a virgin. That's Christian custom, and also was in marriages of other religions. So how then could she have been a virgin.



Sorry if this was mentioned before, but Mary was actually married after she became pregnent(sp). Joseph tried to call off the marriage when he found out, but some angel told him not to and that this was the son of god and that she was chosen to help save the world from damnation. On and on it goes till Jesus is born from a "Virgin" mother.

I was a Christian for awhile, then I found WAY too meny flaws in the logic and too meny beliefs I personally head that contricted the religion so now I do not believe the "teachings" of the religion to the same extent I used to, so please do not flame me or anything please.

I apologuise if this offends anyone, and thank you for your time http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Gyhth (edited 04-23-2004).]