If he is omniscient, then why did he even bother making us? He would know exactly what our choices would be and exactly who and who wouldn't go to Heaven. Why not just create the souls meant for Heaven and let them live there and not create the souls destined for Hell?

Really though: If destinies exist, then everything is completely meaningless as the outcome is inevitable. Our existence has no meaning if God already knows everything.

Oh yeah, that's applying logic to religion, sorry, forgot I can't do that when discussing the Christian god...

So axiomatic and yet so overlooked.



but ur going 2 hell anywayz for questoinig god d00d!!11

Good questions, Hex. quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

If he is omniscient, then why did he even bother making us?The Bible gives no explanation of the why God created. Perhaps on this side of our death, we were not meant to know. It's probably something we'll find out on the other side.

But a common reason I've heard is that God created us because that is God's nature: to create. But I personally believe we cannot know God's reasons for creating us, except that our existence was intended for beneficial reasons. To who, or for what, I don't know. I'm sure love is in there somewhere. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

He would know exactly what our choices would be and exactly who and who wouldn't go to Heaven.Well... not so much.

I mean, you're right, but our actions are still our own. We were created with free will, the ability to choose God or not to. quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Why not just create the souls meant for Heaven and let them live there and not create the souls destined for Hell?First of all, God has never destined a single soul to Hell. But I know what you're asking: why would God create beings that have the possibility of going to Hell?

Well, I don't know. But the existence of Hell doesn't mean God is unjustified in creating us. Hell is literally defined in the Bible as a separation from God, and there are some legitimate interpretations I've read that suggest Hell isn't literally permanent.

God created beings with the ability to choose to love Him, and that He could love back. For those who do not choose Him, their option is a complete separation from Him. quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Really though: If destinies exist, then everything is completely meaningless as the outcome is inevitable. Our existence has no meaning if God already knows everything.Your first sentence is right, your second sentence is wrong. God knowing everything doesn't mean life is worthless. If anything, an omnibenevolent (all-good) God who created us, knowing our futures, should come across as great, meaningful news. quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Oh yeah, that's applying logic to religion, sorry, forgot I can't do that when discussing the Christian god...Suuuuuuure you can. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

"Well... not so much.

I mean, you're right, but our actions are still our own. We were created with free will, the ability to choose God or not to."

If God is omniscient then we aren't free, making the Christian God inexistent; if we are free then God cannot know everything, and is therefor not omniscient, once again nullifying the Christian God. If everything is known then there can be no chaos in the happenings, everything would be predestined and enslaved to cause and effect; even God would not necessarily have free will if he's omniscient...he would know the perfect choice, and being an all-good God, would make the perfect choice every time. The Christian God is one giant paradox.

"Your first sentence is right, your second sentence is wrong. God knowing everything doesn't mean life is worthless. If anything, an omnibenevolent (all-good) God who created us, knowing our futures, should come across as great, meaningful news."

How should that come across as great and meaningful news? I find that to be meaningful news, but horrible still. If I have a future that is ordained by an omniscient being then I have no choice in the matter; I will succumb to a chain of cause and effect and lose my free will; that, my friend, is horrible news.

"Suuuuuuure you can. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)"

Hehe

The bible speaks of god being a loving god. Hell is just a christian doctrine, it doesnt exist in the bible. God created us because he wanted others to experience the gift of life . He dont need us for anything.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

The bible speaks of god being a loving god. Hell is just a christian doctrine, it doesnt exist in the bible. God created us because he wanted others to experience the gift of life . He dont need us for anything.

Firstly-

Hell is referred to in the bible, though it is most often called a 'lake of fire', or 'pit of fire'. It is not just something created for the Christian doctrine. Verses that contain references to Hell are Psalm 86:13, Matthew 8:12, and Jude 7.

Secondly-

It is stated in a basic way that God's wisdom is greater, and always has been, than that of the human race(1 Corinthians 2:1-16). Though He reveals parts of it to us, we do not have the ability to comprehend what exactly He's doing in that great big sky of His.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I'm fairly sure it was Augustine who, after a lot of thought on the matter of free will and God's omniscience came to basically this conclusion:

God is the beginning and end of time, and obviously everything in between. For God, time isn't measured in minutes and seconds, and it's not sequential.

Think of a parade. We are members of the parade, we see people around us marching, and we see the parade move as we move. God has more of an aerial view of the parade. He sees the beginning and end and everything else all at once. And he makes sure the basic flow of the parade fits his plan. We still have a lot of freedom within our place.

Also, consider this. You're about to have a baby. You buy rubber bumpers to put on all your sharp edges, you put glass bottles out of reach, you put those plastic thingys in the electric outlets, etc. The baby can still do whatever he wants, but he won't be able to cause any real damage to your plans because of the safeguards you've put in place. This is how god treats us, we can still live meaningful lives, but the key parts of God's plan are still going to happen. Destiny as you put it, doesn't really exist in my opinion.

As for God's reason for creating us, i'm not sure there is a definite answer. Some possible answers are: it's God's nature to create, God created us to learn more about himself, God created us to worship him, etc. Maybe he just wanted to.

God made us because he only knows itself, not through experience, but through a state of being. God needs us to experience what becoming is. You know getting shot hurts like a bitch, but until someone shoots you in the leg you will never have the experience, it's like that.

If god is omniscient, then technically his awareness already exists at the end of time, and logically would have already existed at that point when he created humans and the earth.

I guess what I'm saying is if god really did create people for some reason, then why did he pick these specific coordinates in the space-time continuum?

Obviously, any answer would be pure speculation, and amusing at best. Like maybe there's some profound logic behind it all, and there are vulcans and klingons in other galaxies, and the three galaxies form an equilateral triangle at some arbitrary point in time when all will become enlightened and meet god!

You see how easy it is to make up this garbage?

Ah, now we get into the murky waters that are the precise definition of "omni_______."

(one may fill in is he or she wishes)

The muslims fixed this problem, by stating that we can't fully understand the nature of Allah (God) and we can't describe him completely in our languages... In that sense, the word omnipotent, is the best we can put for God, which by our own limits of the definition, he can do anything he wants, even contradict himself.

I personally believe that God is nature, and nature is to create and sustain beings, no real

"purpose" persay.

in terms of the Christian God, there was somewhat of a Cosmic bet between Satan and God on whether the humans were worthy of entering heaven, so God said let's try and see, and Satan pulled all the mischief to stop them, and bam we can make our own choices, thus freewill. I think God knows that if we make a certain action, than we will be sent to heaven, but if we choose differently we are sent to hell.

In terms of Destiny, Greek Mythology basically states that your fate is set by the "fates" but you decide how you are going to get their, (so do the gods, if they help choose). In their view, they basically know your going to die, but they don't know if your going to the elyssium sp? fields or not, not until they judge you.

its a tricky subject, btw, your last comment, about God and Logic which you said probably spitefully, you should know that this is VERY true, since you cannot apply a belief system of the supernatural to science and vice versa, please respect the cosmic balance http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I find it kind of depressing to think about how much time has been wasted considering and arguing these ideas.

These twisted mental acrobatics do absolutely nothing for me.

Thanks for sharing craftian, your contribution means a lot.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

"Your first sentence is right, your second sentence is wrong. God knowing everything doesn't mean life is worthless. If anything, an omnibenevolent (all-good) God who created us, knowing our futures, should come across as great, meaningful news."

How should that come across as great and meaningful news? I find that to be meaningful news, but horrible still. If I have a future that is ordained by an omniscient being then I have no choice in the matter; I will succumb to a chain of cause and effect and lose my free will;

IF that is so, then you will not succumb to a chain of cause and effect, because you have always been subjected to that chain of cause and effect ; and you will lose no free will at all because you will never had any to begin with. How could learning that your existence is ordained by an omniscient God make you lose your free will ? Nothing would actually change, would it ? The only thing you would lose by learning that is a set of misconceptions.



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-11-2004).]

My views on the matter have changed over the last month, I'm quite in agreement with you now.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

If he is omniscient, then why did he even bother making us? He would know exactly what our choices would be and exactly who and who wouldn't go to Heaven. Why not just create the souls meant for Heaven and let them live there and not create the souls destined for Hell?

Really though: If destinies exist, then everything is completely meaningless as the outcome is inevitable. Our existence has no meaning if God already knows everything.

Oh yeah, that's applying logic to religion, sorry, forgot I can't do that when discussing the Christian god...

I have a feeling that you would enjoy Buddhism http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I did enjoy Buddhism http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I've gone through many religious beliefs in my search for answers, though after awhile I came to the conclusion that there isn't anything spiritual. I'm still open to talking about ideas and such, and still have a bit left in me of each religion I partook in, but I remain overall empty of faith in the supernatural.

Hex, what about our distinction as the only really self aware species on the planet? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

It took me a long time to really embrace Christianity, but i've always felt that humans have sort of a divine spark, and i have a hard time believing that our place on the food chain is more than just a random occurance. That's sort of what' kept me searching, and I personally identify with Jesus's teachings more than so called philosophical religions, I also reject the idea of taking ideas from various religions, because what's the point of holding yourself to something you know isn't true?

I don't know about that; one can present a rather decent arguement that other species exist which are self-aware.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

If he is omniscient, then why did he even bother making us? He would know exactly what our choices would be and exactly who and who wouldn't go to Heaven. Why not just create the souls meant for Heaven and let them live there and not create the souls destined for Hell?

Really though: If destinies exist, then everything is completely meaningless as the outcome is inevitable. Our existence has no meaning if God already knows everything.

Oh yeah, that's applying logic to religion, sorry, forgot I can't do that when discussing the Christian god...

i dont believe in god myself, but id still like to argue ur point... there is a difference in knowing something and controlling sumthing, and watching us fuck up might give him something to du...

oh and to add on to what i said the bible says that it's human nature to want to oppose god but that our soul is like our concence or sum shit like that i cant remember it word for word but wutever.

Hex, perhaps "self-aware" was the wrong choice of words. I just meant there isn't another race that is equal to us. Think about any sci-fi movie; Usually there are a lot of different races of about equal intelligence. But afaik, this doesn't occur on Earth. Our dominion on this planet is unquestioned, and i have a hard time believing that happens by accident.

Accident implies that it was random when talking about something like that. I don't think there's anything special about our dominion, but I don't think it's random either. Millions of variables were just right for us humans to come out on top; however, I don't atrribute this to some destiny we can speculate forever about.

Then what do you attribute it to?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

If he is omniscient, then why did he even bother making us?

Oh, that's an easy one. Being that I've been a god for a good infinite infinites of my "life" (haha, that word makes me laugh out loud) it is really easy to explain why a being with all knowledge would do something: Because s/he knows that s/he did it. When I went around the act of creating the tenth ring of the fallen, I knew that it would take so long that it would be useless by the time I was done, and I also knew that the act would forever be forgotten by everyone that would have used it because they would all have died by then. But I did it anyways because I knew that I did it.

All of time is structured in such a way that the only way to change what has, is, and will happen is to change the way time started (this is at temporal index 0, the beginning). All of time from that point on flows in the way it does because that is the way it was structured by the first event change from temporal index 0.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

He would know exactly what our choices would be and exactly who and who wouldn't go to Heaven. Why not just create the souls meant for Heaven and let them live there and not create the souls destined for Hell?

Because s/he knew that s/he didn't, so s/he didn't. S/he knows that s/he created the souls on Earth to suffer for however long they will, and then die. And seeing as s/he knows, s/he does as so.

Ok, I better try and get to bed before the excess water goes anymore to my brain, night-o. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by EPHEMERAL:

oh and to add on to what i said the bible says that it's human nature to want to oppose god but that our soul is like our concence or sum shit like that i cant remember it word for word but wutever.

The Bible says, the Bible says... where does it say this ?

I have seen people claim the strangest things "said" by the Bible.

I am not saying that it isn't true but you know, better provide the quote with reference.

"Blessed are the cheese-makers..."

Free will in my definition is doing whatever you want whenever you want. If that is true then God didn't give us completely free will, we have rules made by Him that prevent us from being truly free to do whatever we want. But if we did have completely free will we would prevent others from having completely free will... So maby that is why he set the rules. Kinda like how America was supposed to be: the right to do whatever you want just as long as you don't do anything that prevents anybody else from doing what they want to do. I think that it is imposible to completely comprehend the "Why?" and the "How?" of God but that doesn't make these conversations meaningless, because we are inclined to do so and we need to get it out of our system. I don't have a real firm stance on what religion is right or which is wrong, but I think that if you do what is good and you are good then you will go to heaven no matter what religion you are in or even if you don't believe in God just as long as you do what is right. Religions that I don't like are ones that only people in that religion go to heaven and everyone else no matter how good they are they go to hell because they believed in the wrong God. I don't know if any of you feel the same way, but for some reason I read this thread and replied the way I did maby for you to read it or for me to read your posts (assuming that everyone that read this posted)so we would see the so called "light" or maby it means nothing at all.