I was taking the bus today and some guy starts talking to me about Jesus. I told him I was an Atheist and hes like "SO, YOU HATE GOD EH?" I said "How can you hate something that dosn't exist?" He gave me this really dirty look and said "How do you explain how the sun and moon rise at just the right time???" I told him its because of gravity. Then he said to me... "Yea well, how do explain the birth of the universe??" I was too freaked out by this guy to really get into an intellegent argument with him but how would you guys handle the question "How do you explain how the universe was made?"

I would have told him that nobody knows the correct answer, which probably explains the number of religions out there.

Tell him you atleast have the balls to say I dont know and not chalk somethign up to a miracle

You could use that old favourite...

"It was a singularity but not a miracle."

Mummy universe and Daddy universe.

I just found a really good quote online: "Whatever we dont understand we call god, this saves us much wear and tear on the brain" I always see this guy on the bus, next I see him writing his bible quotes on the windows im going to say that.

Thanx anyway

^ Exactly, so why not call everything God and get on with it.

Because then you're misusing the word "God".

how?

If we call everything god we become catholics, that dosn't solve anything. Actually it makes it worse. Rational thinking is what seperates us (atheists) from them. (Catholics)

answer teh question however you like. it aint like hes gonna change his seemingly stubborn ways. also not like its your place to change them. oh yeah also be glad it wasnt the same bus Dr.Bint got onto.

quote:Originally posted by SARDONICPILLOW:

how?

OK, let's define God as "everything".

Where are we now? Ah, we've got another word for "everything". How useful.

Gods have distinct personalities. You can't say this about "everything".

Gods are generally hated or venerated (or both) . Neither has any effect on "everything".

Gods happen when humans are made to be above human.

Gods act very human, they look human (excluding monotheism), and they are assholes like humans. They get mad, they obviously don't control you, if they did why would they smite you.

If gods exist they're assholes.

I said it before and I'll say it again, Craftian

You must be one stupid fuck...

Actually craftian is among the more intelligent posters here- his posts have been among the better informed and definately consisted of his own thoughts and appropriations rather than poor plagerism and hear/say.

*bows*

Thank you, inquisitor_11. It's good to see my presence is appreciated.

quote:Originally posted by Phrensied Rabbits:

I said it before and I'll say it again, Craftian

You must be one stupid fuck...

As for Phrensied Rabbits... fuck off and die. Unless you have something to back your statements up, you're wasting the bandwidth, screen space, memory and time of everybody who visits this page - including yourself, as you've done nothing to advance your position.

Feel free to back them up, though.

I dont understand why when people think of a God creating a universe, he's actually physically making it. If he really is intelligent-then he would set in motion laws of physics...let it go about its business for a few billion years (if hes been there forever, that amount of time dont really matter)

Then with the universe being so huge, find a place which seems suitable, and then cause a chain of events to form a solar system.

Once this has happened, do a little intervention to create a eco-system.

Wherever you look in the universe, there is perfect order-even in things that seem chaotic to us, eg-supernova's, black holes-they all obey laws essentialy.

I back p my opinion with the fact that every time I see you you're being a complete douche and pretending you're proving something that YOU can't back up. Everything you say is like holding up a piece of paper and painting a brick onto it. You're an idiot.

And, nevermind...

if the universe is being created (and I use that term a bit more loosely than I'd like, but it's more easily relatable than trying to find a more acurate one), then it would continue to form all on it's own once it was started, simply by the line of events that are already in motion, which will propel it forward. The idea that a God should begin a new chain by "setting in motion the laws of physics" is kind of strange.

If it acts on it's own anyway, why does it need to be told that it does? Why does a car need to be told that it runs? A game of chess that it is being payed? What difference would it make? It will act, it will run, it will be played, it will continue the chain whether or not a God has told it what it is doing.

I'm going to make a jump here, because frankly going on at this rate would just bore everybody. (and "as for" Craftian, if you don't like the fact that people who aren't complete assholes have the right to use public bandwidth, then don't make up fake responses to them instead of just passing the thread by, jackass..., eh?)

Why is it generally assumed that a God made the Universe?

I mean, who told you that?

Who said that a God isn't just another chain in the advance of the universe? Who said that it ever began? Or that it will ever end? When you use the term 'Universe', what are you really saying?

When you say 'and then cause a chain of events to form a solar system', what makes you say that that chain of events ever started?

Go outside and plant a seed in the ground.

Did you just create a tree? Or a flower? Or a bush? This is a bad example, because it leads to bigger questions, and it brings in the fact that animals have free thought.

Animals are the things that really have the opportunity to make a difference. A rock,a rock is a passive experiencer. It's along for the ride. It is part of a chain. Humans can change a chain.

Find a rock outside.

Move it two inches to the left.

Congratulations, you've just changed the 'universe'.

Did you really change anything? Sure you did. If you are driving down the highway, and you stick your head out the window, you are an active participant in the universe. When you slow down, when you speed up, things become different. Fuel is combusted and expelled. Relations of distance and time become different, rate of change is no longer a constant variable.

The only thing that is truly hard to change is people's perception. You are a living, breathing, active participant in a microcosm of a constantly changing atmosphere.

What are you really changing? Not all that much. How much of that change is percievable? How much can be felt, how much can effect another human being? How much of it is moving us toward disaster? How much is standing still? Moving backwards?

How much of what you do can change the 'Universe'?

Nothing.

How much of what people do can change the 'Universe'?

A hell of a freaking lot...

Have fun, go kick a rock...

Go change the universe, go worship your Gods, and go shake up perception just a little bit...

Just don't kill anybody...directly, of course...

My bus ride home still sucks.

quote:Originally posted by Phrensied Rabbits:

Why is it generally assumed that a God made the Universe?

Because it's a significant point of Christian theology that God created the universe.

Since we're talking Christian theology here, that's the assumption we work from.

(incidentally, I don't care if you don't like my writing style. If you can point out errors in my arguments, please do so; if all you're going to do is toss out insults I hope you can see it's a waste of your time. and bandwidth is not public, though that paragraph of mine was more for retort value than anything.)

[This message has been edited by Craftian (edited 04-22-2004).]

Why do you say we're talking about christians theology? You assume we are. Maybe you should read the starting post again.



/me throws a herring at the asshole

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Fuck You http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

my favortie response to the question where the universe came from is "where did god come from them". They almost always say "well he was always here". They just answered their own question and feel dumb.

quote:Originally posted by Phrensied Rabbits:

Why do you say we're talking about christians theology? You assume we are. Maybe you should read the starting post again.

*reads the starting post again*

quote:I was taking the bus today and some guy starts talking to me about Jesus...how would you guys handle the question "How do you explain how the universe was made?"

You asked why it is assumed that a God created the universe. The guy on the bus was talking about Jesus, so presumably he assumed that a God created the universe.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

The guy on the bus was talking about Jesus, so presumably he assumed that a God created the universe.

Pretty big jump there, rockhead

No...it isn't. The guy was talking about Jesus, got offended by the author being atheist, and then asked how the universe was made. It is barely a fucking step to conclude Christian theology is the one being talked about the the guy on the bus.

quote:Originally posted by CyberMan:

Gods happen when humans are made to be above human.

Gods act very human, they look human (excluding monotheism), and they are assholes like humans. They get mad, they obviously don't control you, if they did why would they smite you.

If gods exist they're assholes.

Oh really, monotheistic Gods don't look human? God (the Christian God) can take any form he likes, whether it be human or not. All in all, lets look at Michaelangelo as an example. He drew a painting were Adam and God were on the same level, and they looked the same. If God and I look the same, then what seperates him from me, other than the fact that I say he is more powerful than I am and that I know that he created the Universe and everything in it? Pretty much nothing, at least that is how atheist look at it. I, personally, believe that God is above me. If he wanted to, he could kill me right now, every second of my life is a gift from Him, and I thank him every night and every morning. Be thankful that he gave us freewill. It is written that if humans don't worship Him then the rocks shall bow down and worship Him. I got really religious when the girl that I feel in love with told me that she thinks she's a lesbian, not entirely sure why. Last time I got really religious was when my dad died (in 7th grade, I'm a freshy now). Anyway, end of my rave for right now.

L8r,

Disc-y-p00

EDIT: W00T! page 2, where's my cookie?

[This message has been edited by Discipulus (edited 04-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

I dont understand why when people think of a God creating a universe, he's actually physically making it. If he really is intelligent-then he would set in motion laws of physics...let it go about its business for a few billion years (if hes been there forever, that amount of time dont really matter)

Then with the universe being so huge, find a place which seems suitable, and then cause a chain of events to form a solar system.

Once this has happened, do a little intervention to create a eco-system.

Wherever you look in the universe, there is perfect order-even in things that seem chaotic to us, eg-supernova's, black holes-they all obey laws essentialy.

But why believe in god if physics can do it all anyway?



[This message has been edited by AlfMan (edited 04-25-2004).]

Yeah i second that, Craftian you are a big douche bag, you inspired me to STOP posting here due to your insane lack of intelligence.

Alot of the Athiests here can't have a healthy conversation without bringing up silly facts from before, everyone always responds with GOD DOESN'T EXIST STFU IM RIGHT UR WRONG.

Wow.. Healthy debate huh?

[This message has been edited by exesept (edited 04-27-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Discipulus:

I, personally, believe that God is above me. If he wanted to, he could kill me right now, every second of my life is a gift from Him, and I thank him every night and every morning.

If I wanted to, I could kill a lot of people, right now. Does this make their lives a gift from me? Should they bow down and worship me? It seems to me that the Christian god is glorified for characteristics that in humans are very base and simply expected.

quote:

Alot of the Athiests here can't have a healthy conversation without bringing up silly facts from before, everyone always responds with GOD DOESN'T EXIST STFU IM RIGHT UR WRONG.

Wow.. Healthy debate huh?



Trying as hard as possible not to generalise, but i find that, on average, the arguements from christians are the ones that most often deteriorate into name calling. Every side of these kind of debates has been guilty of this, no one, atheist or christians, can really point fingers. Its like watching a donkey call a mule an ass.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

If we call everything god we become catholics, that dosn't solve anything. Actually it makes it worse. Rational thinking is what seperates us (atheists) from them. (Catholics)



Okay so i find this to be a bit harsh. I think that by saying this that you are somehow bettering yourself than religious people....I mean can you really be such a close minded atheist? Look at it this way: the first step to becoming truly intelligent is admitting you dont know SHIT. So therefore, can you really say that you are right and that they are wrong? Now i am not arguing in the favor of anyone here...but, to just be straight, making yourself to be better than anyone who has a belief in a diety, is fucking stupid.

quote:If we call everything god we become catholics, that dosn't solve anything. Actually it makes it worse. Rational thinking is what seperates us (atheists) from them. (Catholics)

Marry me!

quote: oh yeah also be glad it wasnt the same bus Dr.Bint got onto.

Heh, Bint's bus was fun.

quote:my favortie response to the question where the universe came from is "where did god come from them". They almost always say "well he was always here". They just answered their own question and feel dumb.

I love that one... I definately find a singularity coming from nothing easier to believe than God coming from nothing... especially if the universe has always been here and the singularity was just the result of the last Big Crunch. Trouble with that is it's difficult for humans to imagine forever (just as it's difficult for humans to imagine time and space being linked)

quote:I know that he created the Universe and everything in it

Asked him, did you? *does the international sign language for "loony"*

quote:

Okay so i find this to be a bit harsh. I think that by saying this that you are somehow bettering yourself than religious people....I mean can you really be such a close minded atheist? Look at it this way: the first step to becoming truly intelligent is admitting you dont know SHIT. So therefore, can you really say that you are right and that they are wrong? Now i am not arguing in the favor of anyone here...but, to just be straight, making yourself to be better than anyone who has a belief in a diety, is fucking stupid.

His post may have seemed more than a little anti-catholic, but he's right. When you explain stuff as God, you don't need to (and are actively encouraged not to) explain stuff properly. Hence the dark ages and the Church's opposition to Galeleo (can't spell), Darwin etc.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 04-28-2004).]

Hence why the scientific development that led to modernity only occured in western "christian" countries....

...that happened to have a separation of the church and state.

sp0rkius

Regular posted 04-28-2004 22:24

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quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we call everything god we become catholics, that dosn't solve anything. Actually it makes it worse. Rational thinking is what seperates us (atheists) from them. (Catholics)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marry me!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yea sure!

Im a guy...., your a girl right?

If i were you, I'd just say, "oh thats easy, math!"

"His post may have seemed more than a little anti-catholic, but he's right. When you explain stuff as God, you don't need to (and are actively encouraged not to) explain stuff properly. Hence the dark ages and the Church's opposition to Galeleo (can't spell), Darwin etc."

Its funny how you manage to skip over Thomas Aquinas

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Hence why the scientific development that led to modernity only occured in western "christian" countries....

In recent times, maybe.

During the Middle Ages, the Muslims were far more advanced than the Christian Europeans. They pretty much invented things like algebra.

And let's not forget the Chinese, who were pretty sophisticated.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

Yea sure!

Im a guy...., your a girl right?

I can be anything you want me to be baby http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)!

Well there is two things wrong here,

1) Im 15 and its a tad bit illegal to marry at this age in NY.

2) There are enough spooky people I know already.., last thing I need is to marry a girl thats able to do the old

"switch-a-roo" during sex and assume my role.

Damn. I had my hopes set on that. Now what am I going to do with my life?

Eat the souls of the unforgiven?

Yeah for sure, both the chinese and the muslims were very important players in the development of knowledge and science- I was just commenting on the fact that it was only in western christianity that modernity developed- and not the whole "christianity vs. science" thing

Religion will always hold back progress.

They did it early on and they do it now.

They jailed galieio, critize the people who add to stem cell research, even if these discoveries could save millions they ridicule it, its insane. The church hates loosing power. In the 1950's when rock was popular some priests called it the work of the devil. They must of been smoking some god given herb when they made that accusation. How could a source of entertainment made by humans be an act of the devil? They were afraid of loosing power, they would do anything to get back an audience. Including making wild theories.

Finally religion is only meant to establish some sort of order. 10 commandments is the basic rules for a succesful society.

You may ask... "So whats so bad about a succesful society?"

I'll tell you, they control us. You may not realize it but we are being pressured into fitting into the mold. Make money, shut up, have a family, get kids, fit into the mold, then do you taxes... blah blah blah.

The church along with the goverment is too strong and rich. They only elect officals who fit their status. There will never be a gay, black atheist president. Its too radical, all hell would break lose in fear of losing control.

Sorry if im rambling..., too tired to go back and spell check/edit

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Yeah for sure, both the chinese and the muslims were very important players in the development of knowledge and science- I was just commenting on the fact that it was only in western christianity that modernity developed- and not the whole "christianity vs. science" thing

You're not quite correct. Modernity developed in spite of christianity. Even aside from the blatant repression of free thought and science, the actions of merchantilists and capitalists that built the modern world were hardly "christian".

You ask him to explain how god was created. When he says he was always there, you say "then why can't the universe just be here?" When he starts talking about how amazing and complex it is and it must of had a creator. You tell him about evolution, not only animal evolution but evolution of the universe itself. Then he just gets frustrated, or he flips on you. Were all ignorant of any facts that would prove god or disprove. We all know the facts of how the universe works, and the facts of evolution.

[This message has been edited by jm5k (edited 05-11-2004).]

quote:it was only in western christianity that modernity developed

It wasn't in "Western Christianity", it was in Britain, which happened to be Christian. It was also popular to wear funny wigs in 18th century pre-industrial britain - does this mean funny wigs lead to industrial development? Of course not. In fact, after the scientific development that happened a bit later, atheism grew like some rational rash (I'm such a poet http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)).

quote:Finally religion is only meant to establish some sort of order. 10 commandments is the basic rules for a succesful society.

Yeah, I realised the other day that (at leat the non-historically based) Old Testament stories are about people getting ideas above their station and suffering for it.

quote:

The church along with the goverment is too strong and rich.

I know it's getting into politics, but the one probelm paranoid people have is that they see the governmen as one body. The government (at least in he UK) is not one man, it's a very large group of elected commoners who have to discuss the issues their constituants want them to in order to be reelected. Even if the leading party did want total power, they wouldn't be in long enough to attain it without a revolution of some sort.

quote:Originally posted by Lucky:

Tell him you atleast have the balls to say I dont know and not chalk somethign up to a miracle

Why should the Creation Of The Universe be a miracle ? It's probably rather business as usual.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

^ Exactly, so why not call everything God and get on with it.

Isn't that what the animists did ?

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Because it's a significant point of Christian theology that God created the universe.



A Supreme Creator God is part of a lot of religions, not just Christianity. Why talk about Christian theology ?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

No...it isn't. The guy was talking about Jesus, got offended by the author being atheist, and then asked how the universe was made. It is barely a fucking step to conclude Christian theology is the one being talked about the the guy on the bus.

This is true, but that exact question could have been asked by believers of a lot of religions, apart from Christianity, amongst them : Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and even such exotic religions as the American Indian ones if I am not mistaken, and even African religions (which ones I do not know).

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

Finally religion is only meant to establish some sort of order. 10 commandments is the basic rules for a succesful society.

You may ask... "So whats so bad about a succesful society?"

I'll tell you, they control us. You may not realize it but we are being pressured into fitting into the mold. Make money, shut up, have a family, get kids, fit into the mold, then do you taxes... blah blah blah.

Making money has never been part of the Ten Commandments.

Well its a given, because without you to work who would support their corrupt establishment?