After reading the religion forums on totse ive realized most people are Atheist. Why is that? I would think that people would be talking about Jesus and shit. So my question is, why the abundance of Atheists?

p.s. im atheist too!

Because the majority of us, are intelligent intellectuals who think for themselves.

Thats a great response.

I believe that atheists are also intellectuals, because we think for ourselves. We look at things from more than one point of view. We try to answer questions with logical answers and not claiming that an all powerful force designed it.

Finally, I personally HATE being pressured by others to join their religion. If I want to join their forsaken cult i'll research it and show up on sunday to your church.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

Thats a great response.

I believe that atheists are also intellectuals, because we think for ourselves. We look at things from more than one point of view. We try to answer questions with logical answers and not claiming that an all powerful force designed it.

Finally, I personally HATE being pressured by others to join their religion. If I want to join their forsaken cult i'll research it and show up on sunday to your church.

Ya creationist's and the like are fucking stupid, who beyond foolishness choose to take the path of the mindless.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

I believe that atheists are also intellectuals, because we think for ourselves. We look at things from more than one point of view. We try to answer questions with logical answers and not claiming that an all powerful force designed it.

So those of us who believe in God are stupid and close-minded?

Not all of us theists disagree with the evolution and modern science, us merely use God as a backdrop to fill all the holes. We haven't come far enough to fully disprove the existence or prove the existence of God, so saying your way of thought is the only correct, intelligent way shows how naive you really are.

[This message has been edited by onasis (edited 05-04-2004).]

Don't use God to fill the holes, that's weak, and is exactly the sort of attitude that gets us into this mess where you get a science vs. religion thing going on.

'Most' people on this forum are atheists because, i think, it reflects the demographic that totse users make up. The lack of non-atheists on totse is a reflection on the lack of non-atheists in the real world. I haven't articulated myself well, but you get the gist of it.

On totse, people can say that they don't believe in God without being yelled at by parents, or whatever. Plus, we have a number of very bright atheists, who can, and have countered every arguement that the resident theists routinely bring. The religious fanatics are almost universally stupid, and quite a few of the rest of the theists openly admit that they can't prove that God exists, and have no real appolgy for their own beliefs.

Combine that with the fact that totse is hardly an accepting atmosphere for some "saving myself for marriage, drugs are the tool of Satan, and bad language sends you to hell" theist, and it's really not suprising.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

The lack of non-atheists on totse is a reflection on the lack of non-atheists in the real world.

I don't know where you live, but if you think that the real world lacks theists then I desperately want to move there.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Don't use God to fill the holes, that's weak, and is exactly the sort of attitude that gets us into this mess where you get a science vs. religion thing going on.



Science can't prove everything, neither can some fake religious savant. I do believe science is much more tangible than religious belief but at the same time it has unexplainable--perhaps unattainable--holes. I do not see a difference between someone putting faith in science rather than religion.

I can honsestly say that I don't know if God exists and I don't really care either. Religiously, I was raised loosely, mainly Hindu, but at the same time I've dabbled with atheism, the Baha'i faith, deism, and agnosticism. None of these provided the answers I was looking for, and I realize that the answers I am looking for will probably never be solved. Until that time, I will not deny the existence of a higher being.

Totse users are generally young. Wisdom comes with age.

That's just a theory.

quote:Originally posted by onasis:

Science can't prove everything, neither can some fake religious savant. I do believe science is much more tangible than religious belief but at the same time it has unexplainable--perhaps unattainable--holes. I do not see a difference between someone putting faith in science rather than religion.

Science requires no faith. Ok, well, it does require believing that someone got the results they said they did, or that newton's laws are pretty much constant.

But you know what I mean. Science offers proof, while religion offers...? Quick and easy answers? I dunno, I'm an agnostic.(<- our motto:P)

Besides, using god to fill in those holes is just lazy, and it prevents you from finding the actual answers to those questions because you think you've already found them.

We just CAN'T find all the answers we need right when we want them. Life doesn't work that way.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Totse users are generally young. Wisdom comes with age.

That's just a theory.



And fear of death(and what the afterlife might/might not bring) increases, bringing with it questions about our lives and what we've done with them.

Also just a theory.

[This message has been edited by Tesseract (edited 05-04-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Tesseract:



Besides, using god to fill in those holes is just lazy, and it prevents you from finding the actual answers to those questions because you think you've already found them.



I don't really believe its lazy unless someone(many religious fanatics) just arbitrarly gives glory to God, faults him for short comings, praises him for advances made by man, etc...

quote:

We just CAN'T find all the answers we need right when we want them. Life doesn't work that way.



Yeah I know, that's why I believe in a higher being. I get my answers from him(whoever he is, my subconscious, the guy underneath my bed, whatever).

There are plenty of theists that deny evolution and the Big Bang, but there are many that do accept evolution and the Big Bang. I do believe in science and the mass amount of theory, but in the end thats all it is--theory--it can be disproven or proven time and time again. Religion is the same way, and for me putting faith in science is the same as putting faith in religion.

quote:Originally posted by hand_made_attrocity:

Because the majority of us, are intelligent intellectuals who think for themselves.

*laughs hysterically*

Are you for real? "intelligent intellectuals"...

*more hysterical laughter*

Anyways.

I don't think the majority of the people on &Totse are athiest.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

*laughs hysterically*

Are you for real? "intelligent intellectuals"...



^Apparently you'r not an intellegent intellectual.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

[B]Totse users are generally young. Wisdom comes with age.

B]

Wisdom DOES NOT come with age,

Wisdom comes with experience.

If you are assuming that age=more experience you are sadly mistaken.

That is most definitely true. I've met several kids with far more wisdom than most adults I've come across. Wisdom comes with experience, not age. You can live 85 years and not have the slightest bit of experience. You can be 15 and have already lived a good and full life.

I don't consider myself a intelectual, but I consider myself a avid learning and seek out knowledge. Yes, I do believe in god, but You say I fill in gaps on certain issues. This is not true I search for knowledge and try to find the scientific reason or historical reason for the topic I search out. For the things I don't know and can't find anything on I think god just wants it a mystery until we're ready. You may attack me, but that doesen't bother me. Becuase I know that only Gods' opinion matters, not yours. I do believe in evolution to an extent. Micro-evolution. But, if I did believe in full evolution and platechtonics, I would prove against how people have been around alot longer than evolutionists say. Civilizations are current in the minds of those who believe humans are new, but are in fact old. Every time they have it figured it out that civilization is a certain age there is evidence from archealogists that prove a new civilization older. Sort of losing their credibility every time they guess. Also, civilizations that are underwater are real. Evidence shows after polar ice caps melted water level rose 300 feet sinking the civilization in a watery grave. Also, another possibility could be through the belief in platechtonics. The constant shifting could bury the civilizations deeper nd deeper in the ground or even water. Big Bang could have happened if I believed in it. But if it did happen thre was nothing that could have sparked the explosion. There is no solid theory on how it happened. That means someone or thing had to flip the switch. But, I believe god provides me with asorted information to keep me entertained and healthy human being. You could strike back with hostile anger and say there is no proof of god, but there is ,also, no proof that he doesen't exist. Most of my information is learned through sources like archealogy and the bible.

How did God come into existence?

I don't know, but I trust in God. One theory I believe is that he has always existed even though how unfathomable it is. God I believe works in ways that humans can't understand sometimes.

quote:Originally posted by Jab:

I don't know, but I trust in God. One theory I believe is that he has always existed even though how unfathomable it is. God I believe works in ways that humans can't understand sometimes.

Have you ever seen god? have you ever spoken to god? have you ever had any contact with him at all?how can you trust in god? you do not know that he exists, you have no idea, none. You cannot tell me or anyone else he exists because you just dont know. Am I able to prove god exists, of course not, but it would be foolish of me to devote my existance to the worship of a being who most likely does not exist, would you not agree. I am who I am, I am an indivisual, I am free to do as I will and to think for myself, even if you could prove to me with out a shadow of a doubt that god did indeed exist I still would not worship him, and that is not because I am an evil person, it is quite the opposite, I am a loving carring person, I love my family, I care for my friends, I go out of my way to help others and all of those things make me happy, I dont need an all powerfull being tmake me happy, because being a good person makes me happy. And that is why I reject god, because I am good, I have a good soul and I am a good person, and no true all powerfull god can take that away from me, because If I am good, and i do good then I have power, and that power is my own and with it I can live my own life. You however lead a pathetic existance, you have let fear take hold of your life, you can no longer say that you have a life, you have sacrificed your life. I trust myself, you trust nothing.

Where did the gases or whatever the hell they were for the big bang come from? The "where is god from" argument is so frigging weak. btw, no human being will ever answer either question so don't ask.

Edit: It's unanswerable because no matter what, "something" had to always exist or just appear. Either way is unfathomable to a human. God is just as logically likely as some gas.

[This message has been edited by bigtmoney (edited 05-05-2004).]

Except we have evidence that those gases (observation, testability, interaction...etc), do in fact, exist now, which atleast gives a matter of probability to them having either randomly sprung into existence or having always existed in one form or another. God, however, has no evidence existing now, which makes any conjecture into its previous states of existence completely useless as we have no evidence of one existing even now.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Plus, we have a number of very bright atheists, who can, and have countered every arguement that the resident theists routinely bring.

every argument....hmmm.... except, for instance, the two main things that the God presented in Judaism and Christianity claimed for his divinity-

"Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so that we may know that you are gods." - Isaiah 41:22-23

'Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

He answered, "A wicked and unfaithful generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here" '

-Matt12:38-41

that is, fulfilled prophecy and the resurrection.

quote:The religious fanatics are almost universally stupid, and quite a few of the rest of the theists openly admit that they can't prove that God exists, and have no real appolgy for their own beliefs.



I love your work

inquisitor, thats a cute story, but explain to me how barbarian myths written at least 300 years after the supposed events took place is supposed to convice me? If the Bible is to be taken at face value, then why not the Koran? The Upanishads? The Vedas?

What proof do you have that Jesus ever died and came back from the dead? Twelth hand testimony? And thats being generous.

Thank you, try again.

Yes, alot of people that believe in creationism are stupid, but there are the choice few who actually take it seriously, and not use it as an excuse to damn people to hell or to sip wine and eat a circular cracker on Sunday. I know many, like myself, that believe in creationism, but they also accept the arguments and absorb the information from the other side of the argument. Like the dumbasses who will automatically turn themselves off when you question their religion, people like that use religion as a scapegoat. But like I said in a post before, I you bring me a logical argument that you can prove with logical evidence then I will listen to it and take it into consideration as being truthfull. You cannot argue your point of view without knowing the whole argument. That's why 24 Hours To Live is a dumbass.

Because on totse if you can't defend your viewpoint you will be flamed, and anyone smart enough to defend such an illogical viewpoint is probably going to end up an athiest in the future. You can use the same logic to explain why much of totse hates president bush as well.

By the way, Inquisitor_11, can you give me any proof that the quote from the bible that you posted is not complete bullshit?

[This message has been edited by Duck (edited 05-06-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Duck (edited 05-11-2004).]

god is your shoulder to cry on... god is your fairie tale answers... god is your scapegoat...

god is an imaginary friend you created because you are too weak...

if you deny this, here are my words for you...

you are unworthy of undefiled knowledge...

you dont deserve enlightenment...

your mind cant comprehend the truth...

and you can lie in the bed you have made...

may your soul be crushed by the iron shackles of self-deceit that were thrown the day you lied..

quote:Originally posted by hand_made_attrocity:

Because the majority of us, are intelligent intellectuals who think for themselves.

^^^ What he said.

because atheists dont have the pressure of not going to heaven. this site has alot of stuff in it that if u did them u would go to hell. not many people who have a religen want to go to hell, so most dont go here. i am atheist aswell.

quote:Originally posted by flincher:

because atheists dont have the pressure of not going to heaven. this site has alot of stuff in it that if u did them u would go to hell. not many people who have a religen want to go to hell, so most dont go here. i am atheist aswell.

Good point.

I found this site googling for "how to make a bomb".

Most of the content of the site doesn't conform to the standards of most major religions.

quote:Originally posted by Eos:

god is your shoulder to cry on... god is your fairie tale answers... god is your scapegoat...

god is an imaginary friend you created because you are too weak...

if you deny this, here are my words for you...

you are unworthy of undefiled knowledge...

you dont deserve enlightenment...

your mind cant comprehend the truth...

and you can lie in the bed you have made...

may your soul be crushed by the iron shackles of self-deceit that were thrown the day you lied..



Atheists use "things not in their own control" to hide their own shortcomings. I don't see how that is different from those who blame it on God.

I'm not trying to say that either side is right, I think both sides are wrong. My personal beliefs are that God really has limited control over people--he isn't really here to judge us or push us in some direction or serve his will--he is just here to observe. But those are just my personal beliefs, I'm sure if you ask another theist they will say something totally different.

I'm not atheist.

Nor am I lazy.

Nor am I stupid.

So who cares.

Its the people who don't understand what they believe that always have to justify themselves.

Wise people tend to be silent because they no longer have anything to prove.

Chew on that.

"A believer is not a thinker and a thinker is not a believer."

Marian Noel Sherman, M.D. Interview, Daily Colonist, c. 1969

I'v seen this be the case many a time. A believer placing their faith in the basis of hope rather than what's known and left to be known and a thinker constantly striving to fill in the empty gaps with more knowledge rather than a simple explanation.

"To affirm that the Sun ... is at the centre of the universe and only rotates on its axis without going from east to west, is a very dangerous attitude and one calculated not only to arouse all Scholastic philosophers and theologians but also to injure our holy faith by contradicting the Scriptures"

Cardinal Bellarmino, 17th Century Church Master Collegio Romano, who imprisoned and tortured Galileo for his astronomical works

Self explanatory.

"It is a just retribution for improper sexual misconduct."

Mother Teresa, on AIDS

Simple explanation for those who are uneducated, trying to make them god fearing people. Any given educated person would disagree with this.

quote:Originally posted by YKSH:

I'm not atheist.

Nor am I lazy.

Nor am I stupid.

So who cares.

Its the people who don't understand what they believe that always have to justify themselves.

Wise people tend to be silent because they no longer have anything to prove.

Chew on that.

Who the fuck said anything about wisdom? Wisdom an intelligence are two completely different things. And the notion of "wisdom" is often bullshit. Was Jesus wise? Obviously not, he had something to prove.

*Smile* So why do you get so disturbed?

And why do you assume I'm a christian?

Your skill in persuading has nothing to do with your skill in finding the truth.

As far as I know

Intelligence is knowing "facts" and interrelations but not necessarily knowing how to use them or having the ability to know whether or not they are true.

Wisdom is not necessarily knowing the facts, but is the ability to use them when you know them and the is science of knowing whether or not they are true.

Thats all I have to say about that. I am not going to argue about proper definitions. I'm just telling you what I mean when I say those words so if you'd like to, you can understand me.

quote:Originally posted by YKSH:

I'm not atheist.

Nor am I lazy.

Nor am I stupid.

So who cares.

Its the people who don't understand what they believe that always have to justify themselves.

Wise people tend to be silent because they no longer have anything to prove.

Chew on that.



^^I completely agree

I am not an unknowlegable person, I rest in the facts givin to me by God. Someone, also, said that I am controled by fear of God. That is not true God rules with love not fear. I follow God becuase He has made my life great, and he has givin me what I have asked for every time I asked, it took time but he answered me. The fact I started believing God was

1. I considered that I am going to die and what I'm doing now with my life is not rewarding.

2. I loooked into Archealogy and other history to determine that evolution was in fact the complete truth or is God the complete truth.

3.I read the bible and history and meanings of teachings(old and new testament) decided there was some truth in it.

4.developed a spiritual nature that determines what I should do and it works.

quote:Originally posted by onasis:

There are plenty of theists that deny evolution and the Big Bang, but there are many that do accept evolution and the Big Bang. I do believe in science and the mass amount of theory, but in the end thats all it is--theory--it can be disproven or proven time and time again. Religion is the same way, and for me putting faith in science is the same as putting faith in religion.

Once again, you're completely ignoring the concept of PROOF, even while talking about it. Every accepted theory has evidence backing if up. Later on, they could very possibly be disproven.

Here's my point: modern science isn't perfect. BUT, it's always undergoing a process of refinement, looking for better answers and more evidence.

Meanwhile, religion's still sitting at the starting gate, thinking it's already won the race. Never refined, never improved upon. Sitting there in it's own arrogance while eating the dust of science.

quote:Originally posted by YKSH:

Wise people tend to be silent because they no longer have anything to prove.

Chew on that.

That's exactly right. You have nothing to prove.

Interpret that as you will.

Surah: Funny you should ask... you obviously haven't been watching any of the resurrection related threads lately. If I make a claim like that on TOTSE, you'd think I'd know by now that you MUST be able to support it. So... new thread coming.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Surah: Funny you should ask... you obviously haven't been watching any of the resurrection related threads lately. If I make a claim like that on TOTSE, you'd think I'd know by now that you MUST be able to support it. So... new thread coming.

You're right that I havn't been delving into every thread here (it's finals week). I eagerly await this new thread.

quote:Originally posted by Jab:

Someone, also, said that I am controled by fear of God. That is not true God rules with love not fear.

Oh. Well that explains everything.

<A HREF="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:m_exfDnKDEsJ:micha.virtualave.net/pics/hell.jpg">http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:m_exfDnKDEsJ:micha.virtualave.net/pics/hell.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:m_exfDnKDEsJ:micha.virtualave.net/pics/hell.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

quote:Originally posted by Tesseract:

Once again, you're completely ignoring the concept of PROOF, even while talking about it. Every accepted theory has evidence backing if up. Later on, they could very possibly be disproven.



Sure there is evidence, there is evidence to back up Newtonian Physics, but on the scale of quarks that doesn't work, scientists needed Quantum Mechanics. Relativity can't prove everything(and in two years it could be proved false), so the theory of Thermodynamics was created. The point is science is as indefinite as religion. You say I have no evidence backing the existence of God, and I say that God created the Big Bang. Can you deny that? Am I absolutely sure? No.

quote:

Meanwhile, religion's still sitting at the starting gate, thinking it's already won the race. Never refined, never improved upon. Sitting there in it's own arrogance while eating the dust of science.

I can't disagree with you there. Most of the people who believe in God, refuse to adapt to changing times, that's why most religions are obsolete in this age. I think its up to the believer to decide what really is the "truth" and what is not.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

Why is that?

why not?

quote:Originally posted by onasis:

The point is science is as indefinite as religion. You say I have no evidence backing the existence of God, and I say that God created the Big Bang. Can you deny that? Am I absolutely sure? No.

Science is as indefinite as religion? That's such a ridiculous claim, I don't even know where to start.

Science has observations to back itself up. What has religion got for it? Faith? People can have faith in anything.

And the fact that I can't deny whatever you say created the Big Bang is completely meaningless. We don't know what caused the Big Bang; the proper thing to say is "I don't know what caused the Big Bang", not "I think it was &lt;x&gt;, but I have nothing to support my position". If you expect to be taken seriously, you need a reason to believe these things.

quote:Originally posted by YKSH:



Intelligence is knowing "facts" and interrelations but not necessarily knowing how to use them or having the ability to know whether or not they are true.

Wisdom is not necessarily knowing the facts, but is the ability to use them when you know them and the is science of knowing whether or not they are true.

Knowledge is "knowing", facts... hence the "know", bit. Intelligence is the ability to process knowledge, articulate and understand thoughts. Wisdom is knowing when to use the facts... intelligence is how to use em.

Anyways, your whole "I am not atheist, lazy, stupid", post, is a load of crap. Basically you're saying that if your "intelligence and wisdom", dictate your beliefs as truth... you'll sit quietly and laugh at the world, "knowing", that you're right regardless of anything the outside world throws at you, because you feel no need to "justify", yourself.

Justification is clarification, and if done correctly is often capable of influencing others, as long as it makes sense. The whole "I don't need to justify myself...", is usually said by people who are basing their beliefs on faith and know, deep down, that they aren't strong enough to hold up to scrutiny.

Personally, I believe in God due to a personal epiphany. Now, I realise how illogical this is... especially when thinking in terms of an objective reality, and to this end, I advocate agnosticism as the most sane theory to live by. This is because I feel too many unexplained phenomena exist, and some of these phenomena seem supernatural in nature.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Odd_Pics.html

quote:Originally posted by hand_made_attrocity:

Because the majority of us, are intelligent intellectuals who think for themselves.

I hate wild brumbies, myself, you stupid idiot.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

^Apparently you'r not an intellegent intellectual.

You're* Intelligent* ... fuckwit.

As for Eos' crap... I don't believe in God because of a need. It doesn't bring any comfort to me, because I don't see the higher being I believe in as something that I can use as a source for reliance. I just feel the being exists because of some inexplicable feeling inside of me that I cannot shake off (Try as I might).



[This message has been edited by Durell (edited 05-08-2004).]

Because we believe that religion, nowadays, is mass - produced and controlls most countries. We are also intelligent human beings. We think for ourselves.

Im athist becasue how can you belive in a guy from a book writen 2000 years ago, it hasnt even a slight semblace of modern life

quote:I don't know where you live, but if you think that the real world lacks theists then I desperately want to move there.

Anywhere in the 1st world outside America, I presume.

quote:Totse users are generally young. Wisdom comes with age.

That's just a theory

Dumb, but you've got a point... the latest generation has been less influenced by it's immediate family and more by outside infulences thanks to the whole cultural globalization thing, so it could be partly because the younger people on totse weren't raised with infulences from mostly one religion.

quote:^Apparently you'r not an intellegent intellectual.

Anyone who has time to spare posting on a BBS on how intellectual they are isn't an intellectual.

quote:"Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so that we may know that you are gods."

I don't understand... it's saying that God can predict the future given the past? So? So can the application of scientific knowledge.

quote:Atheists use "things not in their own control" to hide their own shortcomings. I don't see how that is different from those who blame it on God.

I'm not trying to say that either side is right, I think both sides are wrong. My personal beliefs are that God really has limited control over people--he isn't really here to judge us or push us in some direction or serve his will--he is just here to observe. But those are just my personal beliefs, I'm sure if you ask another theist they will say something totally different.

I totally agree on the whole "everyone's wrong" thing :d.

It seems the only intelligent theists are the ones who make it up for themselves... who build their beliefs on the evidence they see just as scientists build their theories on their observations.

quote:Wise people tend to be silent because they no longer have anything to prove.

Chew on that.

We're not talking about religion to justify our beliefs to each other; we're arguing about religion to see what holds up to argument and therefore is more likely to be true. Except me. I'm here because I have no life.

It doesn't seem very wise not to share opinions just because you think yours are justified.

quote:

Your skill in persuading has nothing to do with your skill in finding the truth.

You really don't see the point in argument, do you? It's not persuasion, it's mutual investigation. Two heads are better than one.

quote:Intelligence is knowing "facts" and interrelations but not necessarily knowing how to use them or having the ability to know whether or not they are true.

That's extelligence.

quote:Wisdom is not necessarily knowing the facts, but is the ability to use them when you know them and the is science of knowing whether or not they are true.

Maybe.. or maybe that's intelligence. These definitions are really a matter of opinion. I think intelligence is your potential for this, and wisdom is how much you've fulfilled that potential.

quote:Relativity can't prove everything(and in two years it could be proved false), so the theory of Thermodynamics was created.

Isn't thermodynamics just the study of energy exchange?

The theory of relativity is almost certainly correct... I recently went to Cardiff University's open day and they're doing an interesting experiment with a laser interferometer to measure the gravity waves coming from some very distant objects... they hope to prove the existance of black holes, as obviously gravity is the only thing which can escape from black holes.

quote: ]http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Odd_Pics.html (http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Odd_Pics.html[/QUOTE)

Hehe... Hitler action figure http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

quote:I advocate agnosticism as the most sane theory to live by. This is because I feel too many unexplained phenomena exist

Me too. Maybe a week ago I was totally atheist, and about a month before that I was agnostic. I tend to fluctuate, but I'll never believe in any organised religion.. I can't handle swallowing someone else's exact view of the world unless they totally prove it to me.

Long post.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 05-08-2004).]

Myself being a hardcore atheist, I still accept that agnosticism is the farthest most people are able to go when leaving the world of religion...oh well, some freedom is better than none, I say.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Myself being a hardcore atheist, I still accept that agnosticism is the farthest most people are able to go when leaving the world of religion...oh well, some freedom is better than none, I say.

Right now I'll say that's pretty closed minded of you, but in a few weeks I'll probably say "right on, brother!" or somthing.

Thoughts are generally ever changing with no solidity. Go through enough recourses though, and you'll eventually find a truth within yourself that does so much damage to your concept of reality that only one mindset can any longer hold you stable. A lot of people seek the truth through exploring the world around them; that is why they never find it. I sought the truth within my own mind and tore down the barrier between my conscious and subconscious; the horrors I have unleashed allow me to be nothing but a hardcore atheist. I am utterly devoid of divine presence, which is my personal reason for not just believing, but 'knowing' that a god does not exist, for one to exist that could be called a god would have to touch my thoughts in some way...and this, a being other than a mortal creature, has not done. Sure, forms of life may exist that are far superior to humans, but none worthy of being called a god. Anyone can go ahead and tell me that gods may possibly exist, but there is no divinity within me, and upon that basis, I know, not just think, but know in the absolute that no god exists. Call that illogical, but I find it quite logical to know that no being worthy of the title of God exists if it has no impact upon your mind.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Thoughts are generally ever changing with no solidity. Go through enough recourses though, and you'll eventually find a truth within yourself that does so much damage to your concept of reality that only one mindset can any longer hold you stable. A lot of people seek the truth through exploring the world around them; that is why they never find it. I sought the truth within my own mind and tore down the barrier between my conscious and subconscious; the horrors I have unleashed allow me to be nothing but a hardcore atheist. I am utterly devoid of divine presence, which is my personal reason for not just believing, but 'knowing' that a god does not exist, for one to exist that could be called a god would have to touch my thoughts in some way...and this, a being other than a mortal creature, has not done. Sure, forms of life may exist that are far superior to humans, but none worthy of being called a god. Anyone can go ahead and tell me that gods may possibly exist, but there is no divinity within me, and upon that basis, I know, not just think, but know in the absolute that no god exists. Call that illogical, but I find it quite logical to know that no being worthy of the title of God exists if it has no impact upon your mind.

You're as bad as any religious extremist. You're basing your beliefs that could so easily be justified by the real world on blind faith and claiming you have some sort of "inner light" (ok, not your exact words but an impression given). You're closed minded. The world is not solid, and the world around you is the only place you can ever find evidence or share the experiances of others, therefore no person can ever be solid in their beliefs without being closed-minded and therefore intellectually lazy, whether they are fortunate enough to have guessed right or not.

quote:Sure, forms of life may exist that are far superior to humans, but none worthy of being called a god.

I think humans can be called gods of sorts.. we can create elements, and in theory even whole seperate universes if we wish.

Do you penetrate the minds of every last human to live and know the ins and outs of existence? No? Didn't think so, we are not worthy of the title God. If any being worthy of the title god existed, I would have found their influence or their presence when I tore through my mind. There's nothing there that is special. No omnipresent being exists. Sure, powerful entities some may call god exist, but nothing that is omnipresent.

Also, I'm far from intellectually lazy. If you honestly think I haven't put thought into this, then you are a fool. I have a concept of what a god is, and anything less will not be called god by me. There is NOTHING WITHIN ME THAT EVEN SUGGESTS DIVINITY; if a god existed, divinity would be within the thoughts I have unlocked, I have found it to be absent.

[This message has been edited by Hexadecimal (edited 05-09-2004).]

quote:I still accept that agnosticism is the farthest most people are able to go when leaving the world of religion...

Agnosticism doesn't exist "in the world of religion". It exists on sideline between raw empiricism and supernatural occurence... usually because someone sees some things that science or rationalisation can't explain and becomes open to the possibility of an answer from any source that presents one.

quote:we are not worthy of the title God. If any being worthy of the title god existed, I would have found their influence or their presence when I tore through my mind. There's nothing there that is special.

You are saying we aren't divine... yet we have in us the ability to detect divinity if it is present. Why? Is it possible that divinity exists, but we can't unearth it? Just because you feel you have pored over your own thoughts long and hard, doesn't mean you can perceive things beyond your perception.

quote:No omnipresent being exists. Sure, powerful entities some may call god exist, but nothing that is omnipresent.

Assuming that God isn't a personal and loving entity... why is it impossible to think that a being exists everywhere at once. Similar to "the Force", in Star Wars... that's a strange example, and likely an unbelievably improbable one, but is it possible?

Because if a being is omnipresent it would be present everywhere you fucking search; I've torn my mind apart to find anything that even suggest divinity and I've found nothing.

quote:You are saying we aren't divine... yet we have in us the ability to detect divinity if it is present. Why? Is it possible that divinity exists, but we can't unearth it? Just because you feel you have pored over your own thoughts long and hard, doesn't mean you can perceive things beyond your perception.

If divinity is something we cannot detect, cannot feel, cannot experience, then it only makes sense that it is absent; if someone finds no pain within their thoughts, then it only makes sense that they are devoid of pain. There is no divine presence within my mind that I can find; it makes no fucking sense at all to think something is there that would be impossible to detect. Call me close-minded if you want, or intellectually lazy for my views, but to me, it only makes sense for divinity to be complete bullshit if I cannot find it even within the recesses of my own mind.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Do you penetrate the minds of every last human to live and know the ins and outs of existence? No? Didn't think so, we are not worthy of the title God. If any being worthy of the title god existed, I would have found their influence or their presence when I tore through my mind. There's nothing there that is special. No omnipresent being exists. Sure, powerful entities some may call god exist, but nothing that is omnipresent.

Also, I'm far from intellectually lazy. If you honestly think I haven't put thought into this, then you are a fool. I have a concept of what a god is, and anything less will not be called god by me. There is NOTHING WITHIN ME THAT EVEN SUGGESTS DIVINITY; if a god existed, divinity would be within the thoughts I have unlocked, I have found it to be absent.

[This message has been edited by Hexadecimal (edited 05-09-2004).]

"Tore through my mind" - what are you, the Bhudda? Sure, your mind is nothing special, but that bears no connection to the existance of supernatural forces of some kind. I didn't say the Christian "God", in fact I stated that I couldn't swallow organised religion. The fact that the supernatural has to imply somthing similar to the Christian diety is probably a result of your self-confessed closed-mindedness.

On the whole humans as gods thing, it depends on your definition of god. I think somthing with the power to destroy planets, create life, alter existing life and (theoretically) create universes is pretty powerful.

quote:if a god existed, divinity would be within the thoughts I have unlocked

"Thoughts I have unlocked" - what the hell? Name a thought you have unlocked. From where?

Huh?

It's one thing to think to yourself about the existance of devine powers - it's impossible not to think, but that doesn't make your opinion balanced or even based on anything outside your head. You have no idea what you're talking about (I'm not saying I do to any real extent, so don't cahllenge me on that, but at least I can say my opinion is based in reality).

quote:if someone finds no pain within their thoughts, then it only makes sense that they are devoid of pain. There is no divine presence within my mind

Therefore you're not devine? Holy shit! Call the whitehouse!

The thoughts I have unlocked were the thoughts of my subconscious mind; I've become consciously aware of my id and my superego, it was in these two places which are really one in the same that I find myself completely absent of a divine presence.

I've never said it is impossible for superior beings with immense power to exist; planetary destroyers or what have you, are not likely to exist, but they may...but I am 100% certain that there is no single entity, force, nor will, that has unwavering influence over every other entity, force, or will; for if it influenced all, it would influence me, and I find it does not. Perhaps I may become a pantheist of sorts; believing that there are superior beings to us humans who are capable of influence if necessary, but never again would I be able to accept a single deity for their presence is not within me.

"Therefore you're not d(i)vine? Holy shit! Call the whitehouse!"

My point is that a single god entity would influence every last being in the universe with its "omnipresence", and that if a single being out of the billions who have existed cannot find this being's divinity or influence within themselves, then it only makes sense the being does not exist nor influence at all other than a construct of an individual's mind.

First off, atleast a reasonable portion of people turn atheist at the first thought or even notion that god may not exist simply because being an atheist in modern America means you are automatically entitled to be considered an intellectual thinker, free from the bonds of religion and theism altogether.



quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



...but I am 100% certain that there is no single entity, force, nor will, that has unwavering influence over every other entity, force, or will; for if it influenced all, it would influence me, and I find it does not.

How can you really know that you are not being controlled? True free will can never be proven, it can only be assumed.



[This message has been edited by KikoSanchez (edited 05-10-2004).]

Well, I don't think I do have free will in the sense most people think of it. I am the sum of my environment and nothing more, just as worthless as the next chunk of biotic matter.

In a way, in our contemporary world view, it's easy to think that science has come to take the place of god. But some philosophical problems remain as troubling as ever. Take the problem of free will. This problem has been around for a long time, since before Aristotle in 350 B.C. St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, these guys all worried about how we can be free if god already knows in advance everything we're going to do.

Nowadays, we know that the world operates according to some fundamental physical laws, and these laws govern the behavior of every object in the world. These laws, because they are so trustworthy, they enable incredible technological achievements. But look at yourself. We're just physical systems too, right? We're just complex arrangements of carbon molecules. We're mostly water. And our behavior isn't going to be an exception to these basic physical laws. So it starts to look like whether it's god setting things up in advance, and knowing everything you're going to do, or whether it's these basic physical laws governing everything, there's not a lot of room left for freedom.

So you might try to just ignore the question, ignore the mystery of free will, and say, "oh well, it's just an historical anecdote, it's sophomoric, it's a question with no answer, just forget about it". But the question keeps staring you in the face.

Think about individuality for example. Who you are is mostly a matter of the free choices that you make. Or take responsibility. You can only be held responsible, you can only be found guilty, or you can only be admired and respected for things you did of your own free will. So the question keeps coming back. And we don't really have a solution to it. It starts to look like all our decisions are really just a charade.

Think about how it happens. There's some electrical activity in your brain, your neurons fire, they send a signal down into your nervous system, it passes along down into your muscle fibers, they twitch, you might reach out your arm. It looks like it's a free action on your part, but every part of that process is actually governed by physical laws, chemical laws, electrical laws, and so on.

So now it starts to look like the big bang set up the initial conditions, and the whole rest of human history, and even before, is really just the playing out of subatomic particles according to these basic fundamental physical laws. We think we're special. We think we have some kind of special dignity, but that now comes under threat. That's really challenged by this picture.

So you might be saying, well, wait a minute. What about quantum mechanics? I know enough contemporary physical theory to know it's not really like that. It's really a probabilistic theory. There's room. It's loose. It's not deterministic. And that's going to enable us to understand free will.

But if you look at the detail, it's not really going to help because what happens is you have some very small quantum particles, and their behavior is apparently a bit random, they sort of swerve, their behavior is absurd in the sense that its unpredictable, and we can't understand it based on anything that came before. It just does something out of the blue according to a probabilistic framework.

But is that going to help with freedom? I mean, should our freedom be just a matter of probabilities, just some random swerving in a chaotic system? That starts to seem like it's worse. I'd rather be a gear in a big deterministic physical machine than just some random swerving.

So we can't just ignore the problem. We have to find room in our contemporary world view for persons with all that that entails. Not just bodies, but persons. That means trying to solve the problem of freedom, finding room for choice and responsibility, and trying to understand individuality.

- Excerpt from the movie "Waking Life"

quote:The thoughts I have unlocked were the thoughts of my subconscious mind; I've become consciously aware of my id and my superego, it was in these two places which are really one in the same that I find myself completely absent of a divine presence.

Yeah, suuure you have.

quote:; planetary destroyers or what have you, are not likely to exist, but they may

Gah? Hydrogen bombs?

quote:Perhaps I may become a pantheist of sorts; believing that there are superior beings to us humans who are capable of influence if necessary

Hehe, scraping the bottom of your vocabulary barrel there... it seems you don't actually know what pantheism is.

quote:My point is that a single god entity would influence every last being in the universe with its "omnipresence"

As I said "The fact that the supernatural has to imply somthing similar to the Christian diety is probably a result of your self-confessed closed-mindedness."

quote:Well, I don't think I do have free will in the sense most people think of it.

As the man said, how can you know that you do? You may think you do.

I only skim read DarkMagneto's post because I've got to go, but I think the way the quantum world is described is wrong, and that nothing is random, we just don't know the true nature of what's going on down there. Easy to say, harder to back up though I guess - nothing devine here IMO.

Also, conciousness is an odd thing - how can a collection of neurons, some chemicals and some energy be self aware like this? It's difficult to think about because it's impossible to experiance conciousness from the outside (if that makes any sense) - this is an area where I think somthing devine may be going on (NOTE: I only said may be... I think it's a possiblity but I doubt it).

"As the man said, how can you know that you do? You may think you do."

I actually stated quite clearly that I don't think I do have free will.

"Yeah, suuure you have."

Believe me or not, I truly don't care.

"Gah? Hydrogen bombs?"

I was talking about beings, not abiotic weaponry.

"Hehe, scraping the bottom of your vocabulary barrel there... it seems you don't actually know what pantheism is."

Seems your vocabulary is the limited one. I made quite clear which definition of pantheism I was using; I was using it to mean the acceptance of all gods of any particular religions. Essentially, you believe there are multiple gods that work as one body, none of them truly all powerful though.

"As I said "The fact that the supernatural has to imply somthing similar to the Christian diety is probably a result of your self-confessed closed-mindedness.""

I've never said it implies something similar to the Christian deity, nor have I confessed closed-mindedness; I did say, however, that people can call me close-minded if they want.

"As the man said, how can you know that you do? You may think you do."

Misread much?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



My point is that a single god entity would influence every last being in the universe with its "omnipresence", and that if a single being out of the billions who have existed cannot find this being's divinity or influence within themselves, then it only makes sense the being does not exist nor influence at all other than a construct of an individual's mind.

Humans are not all that observant or unpredictable, if you change the environment you can easily shape there thoughts and predict there actions. there is no reason for god(s) to exist in your mind in the first place, an intelligent person who has watched you for a few minutes can easily see what you will do next, or influence your actions. That said, I am atheist and arrived that way when I managed to explain religion with evolution.

I though Agnosticism was a kinda of middle ground between believing in god and no god. So thats a more questioning person since they don't say there is no god but also doubt god, continuing to think along both paths. Being more questioning than a devout athiest. I say I'm athiest because I think there is no god, but I still bow to the fact I have no idea what I'm talking about, and noone else does either. So under what I thought was the definition I'd be more of an Agnostic.

This thread has some interesting thoughts on religion, it's pretty clear most people here aren't willing to change their minds on the issue, and a lot of the ideas remind me of the dialogues i used to have with friends as an agnostic.

I respect the opinions agnostics and atheists much moreso than those of people who are involoved in mainstream faiths (although there are always exceptions, both ways). Simply because, like a lot of people here i am a thinker and, will respect any well constructed opinion.

I've read all sorts of literature, the new testament (Catholic school), a lot of daoist literature (i'm throwing 'soul mountain' and 'art of war' with this vein of philosophy), Nietzsche, 'the dice man', psychology, political works as well, i'm also a person who studies biology and anotomy, i've read a brief history of time... you get the idea i, like knowledge and try to have solid well rounded thought processes, with this i was willing to 'humour' the idea of 'God' or 'spirituality'... but that was about it.

Last year i packed my bags though after working for the better part of the year, and took a trip to India of all places. The reason was pretty much to humour a friend of mine (Hindu, which shows i'm pretty bloody tolerant for an agnostic), and finally have a trip overseas without the family. I won't go into many details, but when i was travelling in the South with my chums i saw something in an orphanage which has given me a lot of food for thought ever since.

I can't remember the name of the city, but we were in Chennai not long after, and we stayed at the 'hotel Dashprakash' (if i remember right from all the head wobbling jokes about the owner) just outside Ghandhi square (every bloody city in India has a Ghandhi square). Well in the orphanage was a shrine to an Indian saint, in that shrine (next to friendly Indian who knew barely any English), was a small medallion about the size of an Australian 20cent piece (2cm radius or so).

The thing about the medallion was that according to the guy, the medallion had been doing what we were seeing for the last 20 years. It was slowly seeping a substance that was like honey, not as sickly sweet, i was given the chance to hold it in my hand and... i just couldn't figure it out. Perhaps i'd been brainwashed? Yet there was no charismatic preacher (i'm well acquainted with brainwshing techniques, part of the reason i'm agnostic), no secret string or lever so i took 100mls or so of the stuff to remind myself i wasn't loosing it(i've taken out the container i'm keeping it in out, and i'm looking at it as i type this).

I can't deny the reality of this experience i have the tangible evidence of the event to remind myself of it. I guess this event reminds me of what underlies everyone's opinion here, personal experience. Whether you've been bible bashed as a child, and then learned differently (which i think is a great first step, by some twist of irony Atheists and agnostics, make the most sincere and enlightened people... if they ever do turn to some sort of custom made spiritual practice), or simply have not had any reason not to believe anything, how can you be asked to believe in something you've had no experience with? You've been asked to do something that goes against all critical thinking, everything you've been taught, and i sure as hell won't tell you to think differently despite my personal experience.

Yet to the final part, what the hell have i done about it? Have i decided to worship and completely change my life, join a monastary? Actually not fucking much, i'm studying massage therapy (nothing wacky, Govt run, learning a lot anatomy and biology there, 2 year course), keeping up my martial arts training, went with a friend to see Van Hellsing (it's so bad it's entertaining). I'll tell you something else, i'm extremely uncomfortable talking about this experience as though people will look at me like a weirdo or a charlatan (like any religious fanatic, hell those fanatics see me as challenging them since i don't believe in any mainstream religion), and it's a hell of alot easier posting it up here since i'll never see you (hands all of you an imaginary $50 for being my shrink for the evening).

The closest thing i can do to faith is meditate (not particularly well either, i haven't really had any odd experiences apart from a couple of lucid dreams and there are psychological explanations for these), i'm not much of a prayer (can never do it with any consistency), but i believe prayer needs to come from a position of strength, to avert the creation of God as a psychological crutch... as opposed to what he actually is, and hopefuly finding his place in life... and i still haven't got a clue what that is, perhaps someone can reply with questions, or suggestions on the topic (Magneto's free will point is probably one of the most interesting)? Then we can continue the debate on more theological grounds, though i'm reminded of the old Daoist proverb of the foolishness of pushing a limited lifetime towards limitless knowledge.

(P.S, i rarely post so i reserve the right to be extroardinarily longwinded, thanks for your time)

some one said : Because the majority of us, are intelligent intellectuals who think for themselves.

only an egotistic idiot would post somthing like that. for those of us on this website chose not to follow the crowd. to challenge the beleifs of sosity autority figures ect. while were challengeing everything else y not god. noone can prove god exist, and noone can prove he can't. since everyone ( via teachers parents) are telling us how he does exist. weve already prove thos ppl lie so much what makes us beleive their telling the truth a/b this? think a/b this. if we had noone telling us if we steal we'd go to hell etenally do u really think the nuns would still b nuns and not strippers? god is a way to keep this world from chaos and destruction. and i beleive

"where knowledge ends, religion begins"



but peopel say that there were tons of wise religious people.

"wisdom is knowing the right question to ask. knowledge is knowing the answer"

Why is it that the majority of people on Totse are atheist?

Why is it that the majority of people on Totse think a kid shitting all over himself and his home is the funniest thing ever?

The answer to both questions is because they're fucking morons.

Atheists-Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse Tsung, three of the worst people in history.

Religious-Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, three of the best people in history.

quote:Originally posted by pumpkinhead:

Why is it that the majority of people on Totse are atheist?

Why is it that the majority of people on Totse think a kid shitting all over himself and his home is the funniest thing ever?

The answer to both questions is because they're fucking morons.

Atheists-Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse Tsung, three of the worst people in history.

Religious-Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, three of the best people in history.



Haha, I hate when people pull this shit. Because a couple bad guys were atheists makes atheists bad. Your forgetting that those people were mass murdering fuck heads too.

[This message has been edited by jm5k (edited 05-15-2004).]

Bad Theists: Look at shit like the Crusades to see entire religous groups going apeshit. You really think it's theism/atheism driving these people to do evil shit rather than them just being fucking twisted? You can have an ideal of what is 'good and moral' such a religion may define and completely defile that ideal the next. It happens all the time because humans are generally cruel and heartless fucks no matter what they believe or don't believe.

quote:Originally posted by pumpkinhead:

Why is it that the majority of people on Totse are atheist?

Why is it that the majority of people on Totse think a kid shitting all over himself and his home is the funniest thing ever?

The answer to both questions is because they're fucking morons.

Atheists-Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse Tsung, three of the worst people in history.

Religious-Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, three of the best people in history.

Actually, Hitler was a devout Christian. And Ghandi was spiritual, not really religious.

Then you have to consider that MGCBTSOOYG is a completley different atmosphere than Spurious. I doubt anyone involved in this thread responded to that idiot who shat all over himself.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Actually, Hitler was a devout Christian

Right..... Hitler was a devout Hitler-istian and not much else

quote:Bad Theists: Look at shit like the Crusades to see entire religous groups going apeshit. You really think it's theism/atheism driving these people to do evil shit rather than them just being fucking twisted? You can have an ideal of what is 'good and moral' such a religion may define and completely defile that ideal the next. It happens all the time because humans are generally cruel and heartless fucks no matter what they believe or don't believe.

Yet the one thing that all great activists have had is a belief in something greater than themselves. Whether that be humanistic and deistic, it was always when people stepped out of their own concerns and comfort that they did what they did.

"It's not about you..."

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

[B]Right..... Hitler was a devout Hitler-istian and not much else

[B]

What the fuck are you talking about? Hitler was a Christian, it's a well documented fact.

quote:Originally posted by NjYouthAttack:

What the fuck are you talking about? Hitler was a Christian, it's a well documented fact.

How do you determine if someone is a christian? If you define a christian as someone who goes (regularly or occasionally) into a building, sings a few songs, listens to some guy drone on, then walks outside and gets on with the rest of their life. Then, sure, Hitler was a christian.

A religious affiliation has little do with following Christ.

"...I can therefore cling to my bourgeois secular existence, and remain as I was before, but with the added assurance that the grace of God will cover me. It is under the influence of this kind of 'grace' that the world has been made Christian, but at the cost of secularizing the Christian religion as never before." -Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Nachfolge, 1937.

He may not have been a christian himself, but he successfully used Christianity to manipulate the German population.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

How do you determine if someone is a christian? If you define a christian as someone who goes (regularly or occasionally) into a building, sings a few songs, listens to some guy drone on, then walks outside and gets on with the rest of their life. Then, sure, Hitler was a christian.

A religious affiliation has little do with following Christ.

"...I can therefore cling to my bourgeois secular existence, and remain as I was before, but with the added assurance that the grace of God will cover me. It is under the influence of this kind of 'grace' that the world has been made Christian, but at the cost of secularizing the Christian religion as never before." -Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Nachfolge, 1937.

I count as Christian one who considers himself one. By your definition, there are no Christians. This has been done numerous times before. If I walked up to you and decked you in the face, what would you do? "Turn the other cheek"? The hell you would, and you know it. But I'm sure you go "(regularly or occasionally) into a building, sings a few songs, listens to some guy drone on". There are no Christians, because none of his sup[posed followers actually do what the man supposedly said. And if you were better read you'd know that Hitler considered himself more than a mere "Sunday Christian". He's as much of one as George W. Bush is.

Stupid as it is, this is how I think.

Get me a pistol and everyone else a pistol.

Shoot each other all at the same time and let's prove to ourselves if this God exist once and for all.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

I count as Christian one who considers himself one. By your definition, there are no Christians. This has been done numerous times before. If I walked up to you and decked you in the face, what would you do? "Turn the other cheek"? The hell you would, and you know it. But I'm sure you go "(regularly or occasionally) into a building, sings a few songs, listens to some guy drone on". There are no Christians, because none of his sup[posed followers actually do what the man supposedly said. And if you were better read you'd know that Hitler considered himself more than a mere "Sunday Christian". He's as much of one as George W. Bush is.

You don't know me. You don't seem to understand christianity real well either. You do understand religion quite well though.

I wasn't exactly saying that Hitler was a "sunday christian" (although that was probably the inference). If you were better read you'd know that:

•Hitler's 'beliefs' were heavily influenced by a skewed understanding of Nietsche, a mix of pagan and norse(?) mythology, and an unswerving belief/arrogance in himself. His 'protestant' ideology was more of a social descriptor, than anything to do with Christ.

•In concentration/death camps, the second lowest group, after Jews, were Catholic Preists.

•Hitler and his cronies (probably more credit to his cronies) were able to take most german 'christians' (including many genuine, but also the indifferant majority that would be 'muslims' or 'hindus' in any other country) along for the ride. He instuited a "Reich's Church" along with his own courts etc. to add a 'christian' legitamacy to his reigme.

•Several christian groups supported (in some cases actively) the removal, sterilisation and finally murder of the mentally ill etc. Many 'christians' supported similarly policies. As do many Palestinians support suicide bombers. Because this is inherent in their religion? No, because they agree with their agenda, and are using religion to justify their goals (freedom in that situation).

•The Nazi's banned the Old Testament as a "Jewish" book. Considering that this was the "bible Jesus read", it may have been slightly anti-christian for them to do so.

• A number of active protestants were imprisoned (some executed) for their actions against the regime. e.g. Martin Niemoeller, one of the leaders of the 'confessing church', readily denounced Hitler's plans in the public arena, as early as the 1930's.

•Member's of the confessing church were indited in an assination attempt on Hitler.

•Hitler's attitude towards religion was to study it for his own purposes. This was particularly true of his interest in how the Roman Catholic Church had maintained so much power for so long. (I had a really good quote about this one).

I spent a year studying Germany History from 1914-45. I'd like to think I have some idea of what happened.

&gt;&gt;Jim Wallis on TV this Thursday

&gt;&gt;

&gt;&gt;Sojourners' Jim Wallis will be appearing in the PBS documentary The Jesus Factor airing this Thursday, April 29, at 9 p.m. (Check local listings at http://www.pbs.org/tvschedules/ ) Theone-hour program explores President Bush's connection with the 46% of Americans who describe themselves as "born-again" Christians. To what extent do the president's spiritual beliefs impact or influence his political decision-making? And how closely do Bush's religious views mirror those of the country's burgeoning - and politically influential - evangelical movement?

Found this, written by former US Army Ranger. Don't know how much I agree with it all, but you get the idea.... (italics mine)

2) A description of the nature of the belief that requires the person to seek separation from the military service or assignment to noncombatant training and duty for reasons of conscience.

I am sincerely opposed, because of religious and moral beliefs, to participating

in war in any form.*

I believe that the purpose of life is to love God and our neighbor, putting our complete trust in the divine plan for our salvation through Jesus Christ.* Always asking us to come closer to Himself, God presents one final and ultimate goal for our soul—perfection.* By demanding the impossible, God asks us to rely on his eternal offer of forgiveness and mercy.* Moments after Jesus demands his followers to “Resist not evil…turn the other cheek…and love your enemies”, he admits that we must “Be made perfect.”

I have come to realize that I though I can not completely emulate such unconditional and divine love, I must try.

The word pacifism has little to do with the beliefs I hold.* I hold faith in God and in Love, because God is Love.

This simple statement, that God is Love, sums up not only all my thoughts and beliefs, but my very existence.

God loved me when he created me.

God loved me when he sent his Son Jesus into the world.

God loved me when I rejected him.

God loved me when I accepted him.

God loves me always, and whispers only one command:

Love me, and Love others.

I have come to realize that it is only by truly loving others that I love God.* True divine love is unconditional.* God incarnate, Jesus Christ, came down to earth and gave his life for all humankind – for the sinners and righteous alike.* As men nailed him into a cross, Jesus asked for their forgiveness.* He spent night and day with the sick, with prostitutes and lunatics, with the fringes of society, the lost and hopeless, the poor and downtrodden.* He spoke of joyful suffering, of loving one’s persecutors, of being a vessel for God’s Love.

I can not deny my conscience, which recoils from violence, hate, and fear.* I can not deny the clear commandment of Love which appears both in scripture and life, but also in my heart.

Under no circumstance can I participate in war.* The only organization I can put my trust and heart into is the Kingdom of God.* The only mission I can support is the mission of salvation and love.* With faith and trust, and courage to follow the example of Christ, I am filled with a joyful optimism for a future guided by the hand of God.

i really hate how often people accuse a religious person of being motivated by fear

no one here knows anyone else (aside from a few instances i'm sure) well enough to infer from a few typed posts what that persons motivations for his/her actions are

i have personally never accused an athiest of being motivated by ignorance,naivete,fear, or any other positive or negative motiviation

it is not my place to do anything other that have a friendly debate over a religious matter

i realize that it would be almost impossible for a post on totse to convince an athiest to suddenly see the light, as i hope they realize any sort of insult and/or argument will more than likely not convince me to change a deep seated belief

wouldn't it be nice if everyone would quit finger pointing and name calling and try to stick to logical, sensible debating, all the while respecting eachothers beliefs and not attempting to force lifestyles on eachother

anyways..

quote:it was always when people stepped out of their own concerns and comfort that they did what they did.

Their comfort lied in the fact that they thought they had an express ticket to heaven. Anyway, you can't say there aren't any selfless non-spiritual people in the world.

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

Their comfort lied in the fact that they thought they had an express ticket to heaven. Anyway, you can't say there aren't any selfless non-spiritual people in the world.

It's much more than that. If you thought you had an express ticket to heaven why waste your time on fucked-up people in fucked-up places, when you could do much more comfortable "godly" things. What I'm saying is tha tit is the selfless people who make real changes to people's lives.

Forget about Hitler what about the Salem Witch trials?

A community based on a strong religious foundation killed almost 50% of their population because they accused each other of being witches. This happened less than 200 years ago. The religon they followed worked well in theory but got easily currupted by power and greed. They finally stopped when the people at the top (mayor, sherif)were being accused of being witches. This along with many other corrupt religious movements shows that religon persuades us to do the unthinkable. That is why so many choose to be atheists.

Were you guys borns atheists, or just slowly moved towards it? I'm curious as to how you became aware, or "enlightened" heh.

I guess you kind of go through stages. First you stop attending mass or miss prayer, then you begin to question, all the while learning, about science and through experience.

So how did you lose your religion?

quote:Originally posted by no655321:

So how did you lose your religion?

I think that's a good topic, but for another thread.

What has god done for me? I have the worst luck in the world. That is why i don't bother with one. And I never have to go to church.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

True divine love is unconditional

then all that about god casting unbelevers into a lake of fire to suffer forever makes him a liar then? Or is it for there own good that they are suffering forever? The book of relevations hurts christian credibility a lot.

Technically an atheist is a person who DOESN'T BELIEVE IN A SYSTEMISED GOD, like the christian god, etc. But now has come to believe that a person who doesnt believe in any sort of god or gods.

What i think the problem is that people in the west get caught up in this idea of the christian god, the belnevolent father whose happy happy nice nice as long as u follow him and a bastard if u do somthing wrong. This blinds some people into the belief that there is no god bc of all the sin and bullshit that happens. Thats just something ive seen with some of my athesit friends.

Personally, i believe in a god that is the "spark of life" that started and is the big bang and animates the cosmos, not in the etheral father/mother. This god is bound by the laws of the universe and cannot overstep them for whatever reason. Think about it, we have to abid by the laws of computers to control and manipulate them. How can i prove this, look around u, there is life and matter everywhere, where did it come from.

Also, this universe is so enormously huge god can't micromanage lifes, if one flower dies in a vast garden, does the gardener weep?

thx for listening to my babel

quote:Originally posted by Duck:

then all that about god casting unbelevers into a lake of fire to suffer forever makes him a liar then? Or is it for there own good that they are suffering forever? The book of relevations hurts christian credibility a lot.

That's not a question of divine unconditional love, it's a question of divine judgement.

What lie would he have told?

Hurts christian credibility how?

I suspect that is an unwarranted assumption. Atheists are just noisy.

As are theists http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I think the point he was getting across is that unconditional love would disable someone from engaging in eternal torture. If trips to hell were temporary, rather than eternal, then I could see it as reasonable to some extent, but no loving being could bring themselves to ETERNALLY punish a being they love. Parents love their children, that's why their punishments are temporary...punishment is something you are supposed to learn from, not suffer from. When you do something wrong, the pain, whether physical or emotional, becomes associated with the wrong committed and allows one to then attempt to better themselves. If the punishment is eternal, there is no learning process, no betterment, just solid and unending pain. Hell isn't punishment, it's torture as nothing is to be learned.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

After reading the religion forums on totse ive realized most people are Atheist. Why is that? I would think that people would be talking about Jesus and shit. So my question is, why the abundance of Atheists?

p.s. im atheist too!

Because most people here are from above average intelligence and don't need some imaginary god to make their lives interesting.

quote:Originally posted by ImCoolAndAwesome:

Forget about Hitler what about the Salem Witch trials?

A community based on a strong religious foundation killed almost 50% of their population because they accused each other of being witches. This happened less than 200 years ago. The religon they followed worked well in theory but got easily currupted by power and greed. They finally stopped when the people at the top (mayor, sherif)were being accused of being witches. This along with many other corrupt religious movements shows that religon persuades us to do the unthinkable. That is why so many choose to be atheists.

No one was killed in salem. Admitted witches were fined. And thats something I'm a hel of alot more certain of than the hitler thing.

I don't know about Salem, but there were people hanged in New England for being witches.

When entire towns are populated by people like Cotton Mather (http://www.gty.org/~phil/mather/devil.htm), it's kind of hard to avoid.

Fell free to counter this:

The universe and living things themselves are so complicated that it would only require an intelligent being to assemble human beings to be the incredible organisms they are today, or for the universe to exist for that matter.

To address other issues, Jesus says no man is without sin. This does not make them more or less Chrisitian. So long as they believe in God and Jesus and actually attempt to follow the commandments, there is eternal life for this person.

[This message has been edited by VyacheslavGrinko (edited 05-24-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

As are theists http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I think the point he was getting across is that unconditional love would disable someone from engaging in eternal torture. If trips to hell were temporary, rather than eternal, then I could see it as reasonable to some extent, but no loving being could bring themselves to ETERNALLY punish a being they love. Parents love their children, that's why their punishments are temporary...punishment is something you are supposed to learn from, not suffer from. When you do something wrong, the pain, whether physical or emotional, becomes associated with the wrong committed and allows one to then attempt to better themselves. If the punishment is eternal, there is no learning process, no betterment, just solid and unending pain. Hell isn't punishment, it's torture as nothing is to be learned.

Therefore, if we understand God simply in terms of "God is love" we have a major problem. That why I think that life after death (in Christian Theism) represents the ultimate polarisation- being with God or eternally seperated. Is there purpose in burning? Not that I can see. Is there a reason for it? I think so. We are either with God or without.

Why not give a true second chance though? Sure, you can say all you want that we are given thousands of chances to change for the better during our lives, but with no sort of reliable guidance, many people who rely on logic find it impossible to change for an intangible ideal with no evidence to support it. If hell were temporary, then existence would have a purpose as we would be punished and able to learn from the punishment. If it is permanent, then life and death are both meaningless as we have no oppurtunity to change or learn from the punishment.

As the Bible describes it, Hell is torment, not punishment, and is eternal. Life is meaningless as I see it, whether monotheistic religions are remotely accurate or not.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

It's much more than that. If you thought you had an express ticket to heaven why waste your time on fucked-up people in fucked-up places, when you could do much more comfortable "godly" things. What I'm saying is tha tit is the selfless people who make real changes to people's lives.

What I meant was, they think they have an express ticket to heaven because they're spending time on "fucked-up people". They don't need anything on Earth because they think they'll have everything in Heaven. It's why religion was created: "You don't need to be happy here, there'll be plenty of time for that later".

quote:Technically an atheist is a person who DOESN'T BELIEVE IN A SYSTEMISED GOD

No, that's an agnostic.

quote:I don't know about Salem, but there were people hanged in New England for being witches.

There were hundereds of people hanged in England at around the reign of James 1st. The inquisition also hasn't been mentioned.

quote:The universe and living things themselves are so complicated that it would only require an intelligent being to assemble human beings to be the incredible organisms they are today, or for the universe to exist for that matter.

I've posted this before (Douglas Adams quotes):

quote:The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

quote:"To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow pre-ordained for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he [Adams] mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being exactly the same shape as the puddle."

You don't understand the incredibly simple concept of evolution, so either endevour to or kill yourself.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 05-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Why not give a true second chance though? Sure, you can say all you want that we are given thousands of chances to change for the better during our lives, but with no sort of reliable guidance, many people who rely on logic find it impossible to change for an intangible ideal with no evidence to support it. If hell were temporary, then existence would have a purpose as we would be punished and able to learn from the punishment. If it is permanent, then life and death are both meaningless as we have no oppurtunity to change or learn from the punishment.

As the Bible describes it, Hell is torment, not punishment, and is eternal. Life is meaningless as I see it, whether monotheistic religions are remotely accurate or not.

Yeah, I don't really know why things are that way. Any answers we come up with would be educated conjecture at best.

Why have a temporary hell though? If that were an option than why wouldn't an omnipotent God use reincarnation or some less painful method? I think that in some ways a temporary hell/ purgatory would be even more pointless.

" '...I have five brothers. Let me warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

'No father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent'.

He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " -Luke 16:28-31

quote:Originally posted by VyacheslavGrinko:

The universe and living things themselves are so complicated that it would only require an intelligent being to assemble human beings to be the incredible organisms they are today, or for the universe to exist for that matter.

Except we have a theory of natural selection that does an excellent job of explaining complexity and actually has physical evidence to support it.