We have no knowledge on this subject whatsoever, we can bicker and fight, but try as we might we cannot prove or disprove the existince of a god. If a god does exist, and makes it this damn hard to truly find him while practicing any form of rationality, I don't hold much respect for this god. If a god doesn't exist, then it looks like a lot of people have quite the placebo effect, as they *feel* god... :P

After reading much on a large amount of different religions, I cannot see any way to intelligently decide on one with the information presented. It seems idiotic to make a blind decision, so I am now going to balance myself on the fence until one side pulls me in with solid proof.

I'm a christian, so all my questions are going to be related to Christianity (because i'm a close-minded bigot).

#1. What will you consider proof? I.E. Do you need God to personally show himself as a being and do all sorts of crazy God shit; or would bible prophecy coming true be enough to sway you. I'm not going to endorse the "Left Behind" series of books, but if that sort of stuff started happening, would you consider that proof?

#2. What's wrong with "feeling" god? I know that just because we feel a certain way and say "that's god" it seems like even if it was God, whose to say it's the "Cristian" god, but i can't think of any religion that stresses a personal connection or relationship with God outside of prayer/cermonies.

My opinion is in the absence of proof in either direction, i can only trust my feelings. I personally feel like god has done things in my life, for better and for worse. I also trust God because i believe that the moral code presented in the bible is the most fulfilling way to live life.

what scares me about agnostics is in the event that God comes and proves his existance in any shape or form, it's going to be too late for people to say "now i believe". Which, according to the bible, means you'll be going to hell (whatever that is, but it's not heaven).

i don't feel like i've addressed your thread well enough, but at least it's a place to start.

sorry,

theBishop

#1 I need physical proof. I.e. I will never know until the day I die. No slight coincidence will all of a sudden make me jump to my feet and randomly praise whatever god was last introduced to me.

#2 Never said it was a bad thing. On the contrare, it is a good thing. If there is no god and you still feel it, it still feels like you are being touched by something above, so why does it really matter if you actually are or not, it just feels good.

That is one of the reasons I don't like the Christianity beliefs anyways. I was raised in a Christian home, and I see that they threaten you with hell too much, and try to scare you into believing. Tell me something, if the only reason I believe in, and love god, is because I fear hell, where does that get anyone? I will not convert because of idle threats or propaganda. If Christians are correct, I believe that they skewered the Bible when they translated it 5000 times, and alot of the things mentioned in there (like the threats of forever torture pain and suffering...) are blown way out of proportion by these so called self-rightious prophets.

You are supposed to love your mother and father in Christianity, right? What if they are muslims and you are brought up in a muslim home. What if you are never introduced to "Jesus"? Does this mean you are sent to burn in hell because god forgot to arrange a prophet to save you? Seems like bull to me.

[This message has been edited by God (edited 05-06-2004).]

tingtonger: too bad, you're already on the atheist side!

Seriously though, there aren't very many atheists that say they're sure there are no gods.

OT, but worth saying I think: If things started happening as outlined in Revelation (and I mean identifiably so, I'm not going to leave much room for interpretation) I would seriously consider converting.

I would lean to athiesm over Christianity, but there is other religions too...

quote:there aren't very many atheists that say they're sure there are no gods.

Then technically they aren't athiests.

Yeah, i definitely agree that many homes threaten their children with hell if they don't believe. Personally, my mom was a half believer and my dad is all but an atheist.

I'd like my children to come to the same conclusion i did about Christianity on their own, but i know i don't want to make them feel like they have to believe it. I'm still trying to work out how that's going to happen though ;-).

Anyway if you're only believing because you don't want to be burned buy a bright red dude with horns, that's not really a reason. I think the additude of Christians should be graditude for what we believe Jesus has done for us and humility because we know in the same position we wouldn't be able to do what we believe he did. Unfortunatly, you'll be hard pressed to find a Christian how meets those qualities.

theBishop

If God descended on madison Square Gardens, made a huge entrance, complete with Angels flying around, and every news crew in America got there and videotaped it and it was on the front page of every newspaper in the world and declared himself as the Christian God of the Bible and performed supernatural miracles then yeah, I would believe.

You'd either have to believe it or deny reality, just like any thing else we know for a fact to be true.

If I knew I could gain the respect and love of billions of people, and convert them to believing in me, I would sacrifice myself on a cross with no hesitation. It's not really anything special.

You would be surprised as to how many people only believe in Christianity so they can prove themselves worthy of heaven. 'Tis bullshit.

Well I can't prove the existence of a god, nor can I prove there is no god. But I have to ask you, why do you need other peoples opinions to reasure you? If you beleive in god, for whatever reason. Be it support, or faith, or anything else.. all well and good. If you don't beleive in god, then don't. I can't really explain this as well as I see it.. but I can't see why you would need proof one way or another, as religion requires one to beleive in it. If you don't, so be it. I'm sure all those budhists are going to hell for not beleiving in the proper god?

No. Just for reasurance though, If you are afraid of judgement day, with him coming down and you not beleiving at the time, whats to say god can blame you for not beleiving when there wasn't enough proof for you? So there's a book, big deal...If it were that easy, I could create my own religion. I require physical evidence.

-[G-Prime]

I'm an agnostic. I do not like Christianity, because the Bible has been raped so many fucking times, and I find the Christian beliefs hard to understand/believe. I do think there is a "God", not in a 'old guy in the clouds' sense but in an energy/dimension type thing.

quote:Originally posted by [G-Prime]:

But I have to ask you, why do you need other peoples opinions to reasure you? If you beleive in god, for whatever reason. Be it support, or faith, or anything else.. all well and good. If you don't beleive in god, then don't.

It's called being open minded and willing to change your position if you discovered it violated the facts of reality and was logically untenable.

I don't know about you, but if the Christian God descended on Madison Square and started smiting people, I would drop my current position with no problems whatsoever.

Fortunately, it hasn't happen, isn't happening, and isn't gpoing to happen, so my justification remains.

quote:Originally posted by tingtonger:

We have no knowledge on this subject whatsoever, we can bicker and fight, but try as we might we cannot prove or disprove the existince of a god. If a god does exist, and makes it this damn hard to truly find him while practicing any form of rationality, I don't hold much respect for this god. If a god doesn't exist, then it looks like a lot of people have quite the placebo effect, as they *feel* god... :P

After reading much on a large amount of different religions, I cannot see any way to intelligently decide on one with the information presented. It seems idiotic to make a blind decision, so I am now going to balance myself on the fence until one side pulls me in with solid proof.

That depends on what do you mean when you say "god". Some old guy watching you from the clouds? Or the source of life in nature? Or the source of our will?

Obviously I mean god... If I were referring to anything else it would speaking of god as nothing but a metaphor.

People understand the word "god" in different ways. Some see "god" as someone watching us and punishing us for sins, some call him "lord", some "father", the source of everything.

If "god" is the source of our will and life, everything proves it's existance.

"God" is rather something than someone. Might be as law of existance.

According to some mystics we can divide a human into 3 parts: the body, the soul and the spirit. The center of the body (it's like a machine) is the belly, the soul dwells in chest, the source of life and emotions, the spirit dwells in head and it is "divine". The soul and body can be affected, the spirit cannot.

It controls emotions and desires, the source of the will... so if you need to seek God - seek it inside, if you don't want to, then don't. Follow your will.

I am not a christian, but I read Bible (the part about Christ) and I believe he was a wise man, and his apostles were assholes (sorry if it offends you), he even told them they were dumb a few times (he didn't use the word "dumb" but it is obvious that he meant it), and they managed to pervert what he said, take a look at the churches, priests and other "believers" and saints, and the pope.