Are there any other satanists among this board? Or am I the only one.

To get things straight, there are two types of Satanism. Traditional and Modern.

Traditional Satanists believe in a Satan as Christians believe in the devil. Now, The Satan that is worshiped is not necessarly how the Christian or Cathloic religion describes, which is evil, anti-human and such. It can be good, evil, or nothing but a superior force. Personally I am a traditional satanist and I, as cheesey as it sounds, believe in Satan as an evil creature.

Modern Satanists believe in neither God or Satan/Lucifer, but they believe in themselvs as a god. They don't believe in any superior force. They are there own god, and not something else.

Anybody?

not really on topic-but a lot of christians say that getting mixed up with the occult can lead to bad demon experiences, or just ghostly or wiered things happening even when your not worshipping....anything like that happen??

i mean, where do you get your faith from that he exists and all, christians have the bible and prophecies ect...so where does your faith come from???

quote:Originally posted by aplz:

Modern Satanists believe in neither God or Satan/Lucifer, but they believe in themselvs as a god. They don't believe in any superior force. They are there own god, and not something else.

Anybody?

?

so are you a practicing satanist,ie.

human sacrifice, shit eating, blood drinking, law breaking.

or just a knob that goes around dressed in black.

Well, my friends aunt was at a party when she was around 13 or 14 and they were playing with a Weji (spelling!) board, and one of them said "We call on the spirit of the devil" and her aunt got a burn on her arm in the shape of a hand. One of the many reasons why I believe Satan does exist (and yes, I'm Christian).

quote:Originally posted by ergo:

shit eating, blood drinking, law breaking

erm... you ask if he is a politician and if he goes to MacDonalds? lmao

quote:Originally posted by aplz:

Modern Satanists believe in neither God or Satan/Lucifer, but they believe in themselvs as a god. They don't believe in any superior force. They are there own god, and not something else.

According to LaVey they do believe is Satan as in some dark force, and in demons they invocate during their ritual magic. However they consider this force to be too superior to interfere into life of humans...

one thing i find irritating about humans and demon worship....do they think that a bit of gold, a crappy chalk drawn pentagon and some runic writing is going to contain something from the supernatural??

anyone who thinks they can control demons or whatever they are is an idiot.

There are afew sites out there about satanism and other aspects of the "occult".



An site of which I know of, and used to visit for satanism and other aspects to prove religions wrong is http://www.apodion.com/vad/

They have things ranging from why blowjobs are their own religious/are aganst stanism to how satanism is like christianity.



As well, satanism normally takes it's "religious" readings from the "Dark Doctrines" which can generally be found on the internet, as well as some books sold in various book retailiers.



And please do not think all satanists are blood drinking, murdering people. Alot of satanists really are like Catholics, only difference is that they do not practise their religion openly/publically supported. Some satanic rituals are actually just inverted/changed catholic church rituals, which others are actually the exact same.



In relation to asking if anyone practises satanism, I used to follow the religion, but then I started to think about things differenly and became an athiest/someone whom wants more evidance of god's existance(Forget what it's called, haven't really had to use the word in a while XD).



I apologuise if I offended anyone, confused anyone, am ambigious(sp?) or am wrong in anything I said. Thank you for your time http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Gyhth (edited 05-10-2004).]

Like ah... I don't get it.

Do satanists believe in the satan that is in the bible? I mean... If they know he exists only from the bible, and the bible says he's like the origin of all bad... And if they believe satan exists because they believe what the bible says... Shouldn't they believe the whole jesus saves thing...?

See where I'm going? Someone explain :/

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

This may answer some of your questions. Have fun reading, I sure did.

Oh and I consider myself a practicing satanist. Modern and traditional, in that I have beleifs from both. And no: a true satanist doesnt murder, or eat shit, or any of that stupid and wrong stuff.

LaVey declared pretentiousness to be a sin? Kudos for him, but apparently the self-proclaimed "satanists" at the local Hot Topic didn't get the memo...

Armed, where ya been man? You have some really damned good posts when you're around here.

You aren't the only one Alpz. I'm a registered member of the Church of Satan. Have been since I turned 18. Best codified system of morals I've ever found.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Armed, where ya been man? You have some really damned good posts when you're around here.

I swore off Totse after the inane prattle of the various buffoons began to effect my sanity. Sadly, my favorite board isn't as active, hence I must find sustenance here. Plus I got kinda wrapped up in other stuff for a while - school, books, various side projects, that sort of thing. Anyway, I'm back.

Well, it's good to see you around again, whether it is temporary or not. Your input has been appreciated by me, and I'm sure others have interest in your thoughts as well.

quote:Originally posted by aplz:



Traditional Satanists believe in a Satan as Christians believe in the devil. Now, The Satan that is worshiped is not necessarly how the Christian or Cathloic religion describes, which is evil, anti-human and such. It can be good, evil, or nothing but a superior force. Personally I am a traditional satanist and I, as cheesey as it sounds, believe in Satan as an evil creature.



How do you worship something that is evil? It's not good. It's evil. Or have you never had an experience with true evil? Do you worship the acts of Dahmer? Those were pretty fuckin' evil. I'm sorry, I can't really describe what true evil is. You'll just have to talk to it yourself.

Do you think that if you stay loyal to Satan and do his bidding that He will reserve a special spot in hell for you? So you can run around for all eternity and torture the souls of the damned? What is the major reward in this lifestyle? Other than alot of selfishness and no moral structure to say what's right and wrong.

I looked into Satanism when I was a teen, but it just didn't sit well with me. I just saw it as some "psuedo-religion" that some fucker thought up on the bus. I mean, didn't he invent this religion in the '60s?

On another note: I'm not Christian and I'm not looking down on anyone's beliefs, my questions are real.

Hey, I'm a satanist too.

I guess we're two of a kind huh?

What texts do you get your information about satan from? The bible? If so, how do you get around the fact that the bible prophesizes the immenent defeat of your diety?

i always thought that 'satan' was just a fallen angel to blame all shit that man does wrong on. and a bunch of mallcore teenagers sit and worship him to be hardcore- but in truth all he wanted was a more democratic heaven, or to overthrow god or something- who deserves to be spat on for wanting to be king of the world?

^^Hitler.

quote:Originally posted by KidKelko:

^^Hitler.

... wasn't a satanist. He was a christian (http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm).

I wasn't saying he was a Satanist, I was saying he deserved to be spat on.

But I really want to know how someone can worship Evil. Come on, how many Satanists are out there? You can't even validate your beliefs?

Ok traditional satanism is the ONLY satanism. Modern satanism isn't satanism, its choosing your own spiritual path, and beleiving in your self rather then a divine power, so where does satan come into this? well, he doesn't, so it isn't satanism! they don't even look up to satan as a representative of a self-assisted path or whatever, so it isn't satanism. And even if they did they wouldn't be satanists they'd be people who don't beleive in satan but look up to him as a character.

Satanism is worshipping satan, if you don't you're not a satanist.

As for blood drinking, shit eating, murdering and all the rest of it thats not in satanism and satanists don't agree with it.

There is as much murdering in satanism as there is in christianity.

Satan goes against Gods will.

Gods will is that we live in peace and don't break his rules.

God says that murder is bad.

Satan wants us to break Gods rules.

Ergo Satan wants us to commit murder.

So if you believe in Satan and put into practice the things that Satan wants you to do, then you would take part in human sacrifice and do other unholy and unclean things.

And if you don't you are just talking rubbish.

quote:Originally posted by Discipulus:

Well, my friends aunt was at a party when she was around 13 or 14 and they were playing with a Weji (spelling!) board, and one of them said "We call on the spirit of the devil" and her aunt got a burn on her arm in the shape of a hand. One of the many reasons why I believe Satan does exist (and yes, I'm Christian).

Did someone actually witness this happen and see the burn ?

In itself, it doesn't even prove the existence of Satan. It could have been her subconscious mind. I hear that hypnosis can actually make blisters appear on your arms just by making you believe you burnt yourself.

quote:Originally posted by KidKelko:

I wasn't saying he was a Satanist, I was saying he deserved to be spat on.

true.

(but he wanted dictatorship as aposed to a democracy)

quote:Originally posted by Sniper:

... wasn't a satanist. He was a christian (http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm).

"[Christianity] is a thousand years of domestication."

- Adolf Hitler

Then again, Satan is the great deceiver so who says he wanted Democracy in Heaven? I don't really think that the Magna Carta is one of Satan's great works.

But no one can tell me why they worship Evil? Come on Satanakiddies, you've got to have a good reason other than the fact that mom and dad don't want you to.

quote:Originally posted by KidKelko:

Then again, Satan is the great deceiver so who says he wanted Democracy in Heaven?

Actually, according to Judaeo-Christian mythology, The Morningstar/Lucifer/Saton rebelled against God out of pride. Believing himself to be powerful enough to challenge Elohim himself and seize the throne, he lead the fallen angels against the host of Heaven. The myths don't say anything about Satan desiring a democracy in Heaven.

quote:Originally posted by KidKelko:

But no one can tell me why they worship Evil?

They don't worship evil... they are just anti christian... they practice "eye for an eye" way of life, btw "eye for an eye" is from the Old Testament...

They aren't that bad people used to think they are.

Except those little shits who think they're satanists because they cut school and smoke weed. They can bleed and die, for all I care.

ah im a spiritual satanist (traditional) but i dont believe satan is necessarily evil, just more informed and effective, strong, and a supereme god, there are some really bad misconceptions about satanism here http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

According to George Orwell's '1984', Satanism (the Brotherhood) and its scriptures (the Book) were probably just creations of the Catholic church. They needed somebody to blame, so they took the guys who found something wrong with the church and gave them these 'demonic passages'.

Much like how the Anarchist's cookbook was really a creation of the U.S. government, in order to discourage any true Anarchist movement.



[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 05-15-2004).]

Well the last five posts here seemed like they came from fairly informed people. But I want to hear from alpz or one of his kiddie friends, give me a good justification for worshiping evil. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I just want to know. I cannot understand what would make someone do that. It just baffles me.

i agree, worshipping something you consider evil is completely retarded, or basing your view of satan on the bible and worshipping him.... being a spiritual satanist i dont believe in the bible or that he is evil, but i'd like to hear why would you worship evil?

quote:Originally posted by aplz:

Modern Satanists believe in neither God or Satan/Lucifer, but they believe in themselvs as a god. They don't believe in any superior force. They are there own god, and not something else.

Uh, by that description I'm a Modern Satanist.

The things a person learns when they go into the back forums of totse. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Actually, according to Judaeo-Christian mythology, The Morningstar/Lucifer/Saton rebelled against God out of pride. Believing himself to be powerful enough to challenge Elohim himself and seize the throne, he lead the fallen angels against the host of Heaven. The myths don't say anything about Satan desiring a democracy in Heaven.



"Elohim" is a plural noun in Hebrew, so it cannot mean "God", and if I am not mistaken is mentioned only in the beginning of Genesis.

Does the Bible speak about The Morningstar/Lucifer/Satan as being all one and the same individuality ?

Besides, when these texts were written, the idea of democracy didn't exist yet. Democracy is a Greek concept, so it's no wonder the "myths" as you call it don't say anything about democracy (relating to Satan or not). They don't talk about communism either.



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Except those little shits who think they're satanists because they cut school and smoke weed. They can bleed and die, for all I care.

Yeah, they suck just like little "wanna be anarchists" do.

quote:Originally posted by ergo:

Satan goes against Gods will.

Gods will is that we live in peace and don't break his rules.

God says that murder is bad.

Satan wants us to break Gods rules.

Ergo Satan wants us to commit murder.

So if you believe in Satan and put into practice the things that Satan wants you to do, then you would take part in human sacrifice and do other unholy and unclean things.

And if you don't you are just talking rubbish.

Exactly my belief. That's why "modern Satanists" can't be actual Satanists. If they are real Satanists, they can't be modern Satanists.

This makes me think of something which happened in Mexico about 15-20 years ago now I believe. Bodies were found which had been sacrificed during some kind of Satanic masses over the course of some time, and several persons were arrested which had participated in these Satanic ceremonies.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

"[Christianity] is a thousand years of domestication."

- Adolf Hitler

How there are some people here which will still claim that Hitler was a Christian is beyond my understanding. They must be people who hate Christians and Christianity and will go to any extent to disparage and defame them.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

According to George Orwell's '1984', Satanism (the Brotherhood) and its scriptures (the Book) were probably just creations of the Catholic church.



I didn't read the book cover to cover, but don't remember having seen this. Can you provide the exact quote ?

quote:Originally posted by Gyhth:

And please do not think all satanists are blood drinking, murdering people. Alot of satanists really are like Catholics, only difference is that they do not practise their religion openly/publically supported. Some satanic rituals are actually just inverted/changed catholic church rituals, which others are actually the exact same.



That is exactly the point : I think at the core of Satanism may just be the desire to do the opposite of what is supposed to be good, just for the kick, for the hell of it (no pun intended).

But I think it all depends on how far you will go in practising "evil" as being the opposite of good. There are degrees. Some might just practice reversed Catholic rituals (which, considered from the viewpoint of the Church are a kind of crime in themselves), some might commit murders and other crimes. To me, these are different kinds of persons altogether.



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by ergo:

Satan goes against Gods will.

Gods will is that we live in peace and don't break his rules.

God says that murder is bad.

Actually, the Ten Commandments don't talk about murder. They say "Thou shalt not kill". Killing is bad. Murder is a worse form of killing.

"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew"

- Adolf Hitler

intresting how solgers are so religus yet they break though shal not kill

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:



I didn't read the book cover to cover, but don't remember having seen this. Can you provide the exact quote ?

To understand what I'm talking about, you have to interpret the book something other than the obvious. 1984 is also a criticism of Roman Catholicism.

Big Brother is God

The Party is the Church

The three world superpowers are the three monotheistic religions of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

The Party's slogans:

War is Peace -- The Catholic church, as well as the other two religions, is infamous for its Crusades and other holy wars. At the same time, it proposes that it is a peaceful religion. Even in protestantism, we have missionaries to go out and 'fight in God's name'. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/sword.html

Freedom is Slavery -- One of the messages I've often been preached is that complete submission to God will lead to personal freedom. Also, whenever you do something against God's will, you become a slave to sin.

1 Corinthians 7:20 -- Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [21]Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. [22]For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. [23]Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. [24]Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

Ignorance is Strength -- In order to relate to this, it must be understood that faith is very much like ignorance. Ignorance can have two meanings: ignoring something, or not knowing something. Both apply to this case. In order to have 'faith' in God, you must ignore the wicked preaching of atheists and other non-Christians and only believe in what the Word of God tells you (I'm speaking from a Christian perspective, here). Members of Jehovah's Witness take this to the extreme. Many times a Christian must take a contradiction that they see and have faith that God has all the answers for them. By thinking this way, they are able to ignore these 'problems' with the Bible.

Matthew 17:14 -- And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, [15]Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. [16]And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. [17]Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. [18]And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. [19]Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? [20]And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. [21]Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

While reading the NIV, I noticed that there was no verse for Matthew 17:21. How odd.

Other parts of 1984 that are much like those in Christianity. One example is the anti-sex policy (proposed by St. Paul in the epistles). Another would be the ministry of truth (Catholicism, rewriting its own scriptures and choosing which books of the Bible to canonize). Then there's the ominous "Big Brother is watching you." How about the kids telling on their parents for the sake of the Party? Matthew 10:21 -- "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death." Also see Matthew 10:34-39 and Matthew 12:46-50. The Ministry of Plenty? Matthew 6:25-34. (The other books also have similar verses, but for simplicity I'm using what I find in Matthew.)

Let's not forget the experience at the end where Winston is reconverted. First is the reason why they let him go ahead and commit thoughtcrime.

Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

And then after they capture him, why can't they just kill him? They (the Party) must erase what's inside of him and fill them with themselves.

Phl 2:1 -- If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, [2]then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose... [5]Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: [6]Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, [7]but made himself nothing... [9]Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, [10]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [11]and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

An interesting side-note: "Who... did not consider equality with God something to be grasped... (dies on cross)... Therefore God exalted him to the highest place." Hmm...

But Winston can't be like everyone else anymore. All he can do is wait for that bullet. Hebrews 6:4-6 -- "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Thoughtcrime -- Matthew 5:27-30. Matthew 12:33-37. Matthew 15:19. Mark 7:21. Luke 6:25.

How does O'Brien know what Winston is thinking? God sees into the hearts of all men. And... O'Brien is acting through Big Brother.

I could go on and on like this, but let's get back to the subject.

So, how this deals with Satanism. Near the end O'Brien tells Winston Smith that it was HIMSELF that helped write the Book.

<<<<<<<<<<'As you lie there,' said O'Brien, 'you have often wondered you have even asked me -- why the Ministry of Love should expend so much time and trouble on you. And when you were free you were puzzled by what was essentially the same question. You could grasp the mechanics of the Society you lived in, but not its underlying motives. Do you remember writing in your diary, "I understand how: I do not understand why"? It was when you thought about "why" that you doubted your own sanity. You have read the book, Goldstein's book, or parts of it, at least. Did it tell you anything that you did not know already?'

'You have read it?' said Winston.

'I wrote it. That is to say, I collaborated in writing it. No book is produced individually, as you know.'>>>>>>>>>>

And an earlier conversation between Winston and Julia.

<<<<<<<<<<Sometimes, too, they talked of engaging in active rebellion against the Party, but with no notion of how to take the first step. Even if the fabulous Brotherhood was a reality, there still remained the difficulty of finding one's way into it. He told her of the strange intimacy that existed, or seemed to exist, between himself and O'Brien, and of the impulse he sometimes felt, simply to walk into O'Brien's presence, announce that he was the enemy of the Party, and demand his help. Curiously enough, this did not strike her as an impossibly rash thing to do. She was used to judging people by their faces, and it seemed natural to her that Winston should believe O'Brien to be trustworthy on the strength of a single flash of the eyes. Moreover she took it for granted that everyone, or nearly everyone, secretly hated the Party and would break the rules if he thought it safe to do so. But she refused to believe that widespread, organized opposition existed or could exist. The tales about Goldstein and his underground army, she said, were simply a lot of rubbish which the Party had invented for its own purposes and which you had to pretend to believe in. Times beyond number, at Party rallies and spontaneous demonstrations, she had shouted at the top of her voice for the execution of people whose names she had never heard and in whose supposed crimes she had not the faintest belief. When public trials were happening she had taken her place in the detachments from the Youth League who surrounded the courts from morning to night, chanting at intervals 'Death to the traitors!' During the Two Minutes Hate she always excelled all others in shouting insults at Goldstein. Yet she had only the dimmest idea of who Goldstein was and what doctrines he was supposed to represent. She had grown up since the Revolution and was too young to remember the ideological battles of the fifties and sixties. Such a thing as an independent political movement was outside her imagination: and in any case the Party was invincible. It would always exist, and it would always be the same. You could only rebel against it by secret disobedience or, at most, by isolated acts of violence such as killing somebody or blowing something up.>>>>>>>>>>

The Brotherhood, Satanism, is rebellion against the church. Its book was contrived by the Party, the church.

But, this is only an opinion. Maybe its not a way 1984 should be interpreted, and maybe Satanism wasn't an invention of the church. But it makes sense to me.



So, do you love Big Brother?

----------------------------------------------

Bah, I can't get the damn link to the SAB to work. Take out the spaces and it should be fine.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 05-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

How there are some people here which will still claim that Hitler was a Christian is beyond my understanding.





I am a Christian and i think it's certainly possible that Hitler was a Christian. Don't try to pretend that a large percentage of Christians don't misrepresent their own religion. Hell, most of the "Conservative" movement don't know what Jesus meant when he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" otherwise, why would they support the death penalty? They must think they are without sin.

George Bush and Hitler are both Christians. They just misunderstand what Jesus was saying. It's not uncommon.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

George Bush and Hitler are both Christians. They just misunderstand what Jesus was saying. It's not uncommon.

theBishop

Am I pretending anything ? You seem to be deliberatly ignoring all the manifestations of paganism in the Third Reich.

What about that quote purportedly from Hitler, by Armed&Angry ? Wasn-t Nietzsche one of the ideological sources of the Third Reich ? And Nietzsche could hardly be called a Christian philosopher, could he ?

This is what I found some time ago about Hitler being a Christian.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/Hitler.shtml

It explains his odd behavior as a Christian. The reason he was anti-Semetic was because of books he read, written by Martin Luther. And here's an excerpt about the pagan stuff.

<<<<<<<<<<"Hitler believed in Norse mythology and various other forms of pagan mysticism, so he wasn't true Christian": Some of Hitler's underlings promoted a bastardized form of Christianity into which they mixed elements of Norse mythology, but no one in the Nazi regime ever spoke against Christianity, and Hitler publicly, loudly, repeatedly professed his Christian faith. The only way to view the Nazis as anything but a Christian state is to distort the facts beyond recognition; a pagan state would not pray to Jesus in its schoolrooms or enter into a concordat with the Catholic church! The tinge of Norse mysticism was only intended to create a particular Teutonic flavour of Christianity for the purpose of enhancing German racial pride, not to oppose or remove Christianity.>>>>>>>>>>

You might want to take a look at it, Uncus.

And as for people misunderstanding the Bible, I don't think it's as simple as "misunderstanding." It's more ambiguous than cryptic. The reason is that Jesus wasn't the only person whose teaching Christians follow, there's also have Paul, and all of the old Testament must be followed as well. When you come up with something like "Kill all of God's enemies" in the old Testament, then "Love your enemies" from Jesus, we have some problems. I don't see how else there could be something like Westboro Baptist Church.

Whatever floats your boat.

Thanks, Clarphemous.

"Hitler believed in Norse mythology and various other forms of pagan mysticism"

I suppose "believed" means here he took Norse mythology seriously and considered it an adequate belief system for our modern time. How can someone be a Christian at the same time ?

"Hitler publicly, loudly, repeatedly professed his Christian faith"

Does this in itself prove anything ? The whole of the German people were protestants or catholics, so it can easily be imagined that, even if the need for a leader was high (suggested by the evidence), they wouldn't be ready to accept as their leader someone professing to be a pagan.

"a pagan state would not pray to Jesus in its schoolrooms"

No German would have accepted his country knowingly turned into a pagan state, so there is nothing contradictory in the above statement. The nation was not pagan, the regime however very much so. Again : whatever they professed, there would not have been all these pagan symbols around.

Your last comments about those difficult to reconcile statements in Old and New Testament are relevant indeed.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-18-2004).]

Sorry Uncus, i didn't know you were talking about the occult stuff, I though you were just saying "hitler was bad, so he couldn't be a christian". My fault.

Oh no, theBishop, that would be silly.

Here I found something about paganism and fascism :

quote:The idea of what we have described as 'The post-Christian period' may strike many readers as odd. Because Christianity is still by far the majority religion in European society. But many ideologies and philosophies opposing Christianity, materialist philosophy being the most important, had become increasingly influential by the 19th century.

Looking at these three periods, we see that fascist culture belongs to the first and third. In other words, fascism was born out of pagan culture, and was later resurrected as a part of materialist culture. There was no fascist ideology or practice throughout the thousand or so years when Christian culture dominated Europe.

http://www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/thepagan.htm

I rather agree with this author. Didn't neo-paganism arise out of the modern materialistic western civilization ? And materialism certainly has been pushing Christianity aside for some time. That's not to say that it hasn't been lent a helping hand in this respect from other quarters.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-18-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-18-2004).]

What disgusts me is that despite a tiny, tiny minority, or which i believe i am one, the only people really representing Christianity are the conservative and neo-conservatives who have a totally different agenda than what Jesus was instructing.

Sorry, Uncus. I didn't make the quote very clear. The first sentence "Hitler believed in Norse mythology and various other forms of pagan mysticism, so he wasn't true Christian" was one of the 'facts' the page was proving as wrong. It says that he didn't believe in the mythology, his underlings just used it to give fascism that 'Zing'. Since you didn't seem to have read the page (some of the material is a bit shocking, I would think) I'll copy and paste it here for you.

--------------------------------------------------------

Atheist Morality

Was Hitler an Atheist?

Atheists have been, and continue to be the targets of a vicious, tireless smear campaign. For example, after informally questioning my co-workers, I realized to my chagrin that most of them think Adolf Hitler was an atheist! Not one of them realized that Adolf Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing (of the type that supposedly produces moral, virtuous people), or that he was an altar boy in his youth, or that he once told General Gerhart Engel that "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". None of them knew that his infamous "Mein Kampf" contains phrases such as this: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (among many, many other things; see my page on Hitler's Religion for more). None of them knew that Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed with "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

None of them knew that he made Christian school prayer mandatory for the 1930's German schoolchildren who grew up to be his dreaded SS, or that he publicly espoused "family values", which in his mind meant the condemnation of sexual "perversions" rather than the promotion of healthy marriages and parenting methods (rather reminiscent of the right-wing fundamentalist position today). None of them knew how much the German Christian Social movement resembled the modern right-wing Christian Fundamentalist movement. None of them knew that Hitler closely followed the anti-Semitic teachings of none other than Martin Luther, founder of Protestantism, but this isn't surprising since they didn't know about Martin Luther's extreme anti-Semitism either, even though he wrote a book titled "On Jews and their Lies". Anti-atheists have noted that Hitler had minor disagreements with the Catholic church in Germany (but not with the church in Rome, with which he signed a Concordat in 1933, and which ordered the German church to fall in line), and they have attempted to twist these minor disagreements into a widespread misconception that he was an atheist, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Numerous arguments have been advanced in favour of the notion that Hitler was an atheist, despite the above information. Among them are:

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<LI>"While most of the concentration camp victims were Slavs (5 million) and Jews (6 million), Hitler killed Christians too, so he was obviously an atheist rather than a Christian, despite the misleading quotes you use": Nice try, but the medieval Catholics killed Christians for disobedience too; does this make them atheists? George W. Bush approved of the execution of many criminals who were Christian; does this make him an atheist? The question is not whether Hitler killed Christians; the question is why. When one considers that Hitler himself openly professed his Christian faith in both his writings and public speeches, and when one considers the specific actions for which Christians were arrested and killed, it's obvious that they were killed for actively opposing his government, not for being Christian. This is entirely different from his hatred of Jews (whose only crime was their religion and race) and Slavs (whose only crime was citizenship in a "Godless Bolshevik" state). As for the "misleading" quotes, it's one thing for an atheist to use the word "God" (I myself say things like "Thank God" even though I don't actually believe in God), but it's quite another for him to say "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter," isn't it?

<LI>"Hitler feuded with the German churches, so he obviously wasn't a Christian": As before, this proves nothing since Christians have feuded with one another for centuries. In Hitler's case, his only feud with the church was over the division of power between church and state. Note that he never contested the idea that church and religion belonged in government; he only insisted that he have control over the church, rather than the church having control over him.

<LI>"Hitler believed in Norse mythology and various other forms of pagan mysticism, so he wasn't true Christian": Some of Hitler's underlings promoted a bastardized form of Christianity into which they mixed elements of Norse mythology, but no one in the Nazi regime ever spoke against Christianity, and Hitler publicly, loudly, repeatedly professed his Christian faith. The only way to view the Nazis as anything but a Christian state is to distort the facts beyond recognition; a pagan state would not pray to Jesus in its schoolrooms or enter into a concordat with the Catholic church! The tinge of Norse mysticism was only intended to create a particular Teutonic flavour of Christianity for the purpose of enhancing German racial pride, not to oppose or remove Christianity.

<LI>"Hitler's actions were un-Christian, therefore he was not a true Christian, even if he claimed to be one": I suppose that would depend on how you define "true Christian". The medieval Catholics did everything Hitler did and more; does this mean they weren't "true Christians" either? One Catholic actually E-mailed me to argue that Hitler's actions were far worse than those of the Catholic church, as if gas chambers are so much worse than hacking a "witch"'s breasts off, violating her with heated metal instruments, and then tearing her limbs out of their sockets on the rack! I define a Christian as one who believes that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. Others define it far more narrowly, so that they can exclude people like Hitler and Mengele. But if they are to use such a narrow definition, then they must be willing to admit that most self-professed "Christians" throughout history have not been truly Christian. Either way, they certainly couldn't call them atheists.

<LI>"Christians outside Germany fought Hitler, so the Nazis were enemies of Christianity": This argument confuses nationalism with religion; Christian nations have been fighting each other for centuries. In reality, Christians throughout the world actively supported anti-semitism and even eugenics until Hitler went so far that peoples' consciences were finally pricked. America sterilized thousands of people with its own eugenics program before the Nazis began theirs, and Hitler's anti-Semite campaigns went almost unnoticed until they went beyond "mere" segregation and confiscation of property. In fact, in 1939, The Bishop of Hannover (among others) signed the following statement: "The foundation of this institute is based on the conviction that Jewish influence in all areas of German life, including therefore that of the Church and religon, must be brought to light and eliminated". Not exactly a stunning condemnation of Hitler's anti-Semitism, is it? But one doesn't need such quotes to make the point; one need only think about it. Germany was one of the most fiercely religious nations in Europe at the time Hitler rose to power. If Hitler's anti-Semitism offended all Christian principles at the time, then why did Germany's largely Christian population give power to an outspoken anti-Semite? Modern, moralistic Christianity is a reaction to Hitler; he forced Christians to look at themselves in the mirror and change their ways. That's good, but as the right-wing fundamentalists are demonstrating every day, the spectre of "traditional" Christianity always lurks beneath the surface, ready to return if we give it a chance. It is the responsibility of not just secular humanists, but also ethical Christians to make sure this doesn't happen.

<LI>"The worldwide Christian community knew nothing of the horrors of the Holocaust until very late in the war, and that's why they didn't say anything. Once the news got out, the worldwide Christian community united against him.": This is just a variation upon the previous argument, and it's an historical whitewash. The worldwide Christian community at the time was strongly anti-semitic, and collectively gave little help to the Jews. The idea that they fought to save the Jews was invented after the war. The historical fact is that the Allies knew about the horrors of the concentration camp by the start of 1942, from spy networks and the eyewitness accounts of escapees, but no one cared. Anti-semitism was powerful and omnipresent: Canada turned away 3,000 Jewish child refugees at the border (all are believed to have eventually died at Auschwitz). America turned away 30,000 Jewish child refugees on its own, as did many of the European nations who were in a position to save countless Jews. An American rabbi had to use his own money to purchase full-page ads in newspapers to publicize the millions of deaths of the Holocaust because the newspapers were putting the information in tiny articles on the back pages. The "March of the Rabbis" had to be organized in Washington DC because the politicians considered the Jewish Holocaust to be a low-priority situation. Winston Churchill proposed bombing the gas chambers (or at the very least, the rail lines leading to the concentration camps) in order to stem the tide of death, but they were not deemed strategically important targets. FDR responded to the March of the Rabbis by ignoring them and sneaking out a back door. There was no worldwide Christian revulsion at the Holocaust until after the war, when movies and pictures finally awoke long-dormant consciences that had been unaffected by written reports.

<LI>"Hitler drew his inspiration from Nietszche, an atheist, and not Christianity": Nice try, but Nietszche opposed anti-semitism and he was ashamed of his German heritage. Does that sound like Nazism to you? Hitler used Nietszche the same way most people use Nietszche today: only as a source of an occasional handy quote. I've known a lot of Christians who quoted Nietszche at one time or another, and because of the ubiquity of Nietszche quotes, many of them don't even realize that he was an atheist until you point it out.

<LI>"The swastika is an ancient pagan symbol, so the Nazis were Pagans rather than Christians": This seems quite convincing at first, but swastika-like forms are found in so many cultural artifacts throughout history that the use of that shape cannot be taken as proof of paganism. Did Hitler know of the swastika's use in pagan culture? Did he know of any of its history? Or was he simply influenced by the fact that during his youth, he lived near a monastery whose coat of arms included a swastika? Again, not to belabour the point, but given his loud and repeated public professions of Christian faith, as well as the lack of privately expressed sentiments against God, as well as the official policies of the Nazi party, it would take much stronger evidence than this to disprove the fact that he was a Christian.

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Christian claims concerning Hitler's "atheism" are historical revisionism at its worst. Every vague hint, every subtle clue to anything even slightly different from Christianity is blown wildly out of proportion, while all of the official policies of the Nazi government as well as Hitler's own speeches and writings are dismissed as unimportant, irrelevant, and misleading. If you listen to a typical right-wing Christian fundamentalist describing World War Two, you would think it was a struggle between the righteous forces of God-fearing Christians and the evil forces of godless heathens. Nothing could be further from the truth.

When confronted by the fact that Hitler's example hardly helps in their slander campaign against atheists, some anti-atheists suddenly switch gears to Marxism and point out that Marxism is atheistic, in an obvious attempt to tie atheism to past and present human rights abuses in Russia and China. However, that is a logical fallacy: the fact that all Marxists are atheists does not mean that all atheists must therefore be Marxists (if you don't understand why that's a fallacy, go back to school). It's also an unnecessary slander against Marxists. While I find Marx's communist ideas to be very seriously flawed, I must note that he never would have approved of the violent regimes of Stalin or Mao. Atheism is merely the refusal to believe in a God for whom no scientific evidence exists. It does not necessarily lead to Stalinism, or decadence, or the breakdown of family values, or any of these other ridiculous charges that are routinely levied at it.

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The thesis of the page you found is:

This is because Christianity is a religion of peace and equality. Christianity, which believes in and tries to bring people to live by love, compassion, sacrifice, affection and humility, is the complete antithesis of fascism.

My response is... does Christianity always mean that it's going to be peaceful and loving? From what I've heard of the past, and what I've seen of George Bush's Christian fundamentalist policies I would have to disagree. Ever read the PNAC? The Project for the New American Century. It's insane, it talks about world domination and other crap. And this is what the good ol' president of the U.S. of A. has been supporting.

But, I'd like to point out a couple things you said earlier.

quote:"Hitler publicly, loudly, repeatedly professed his Christian faith"

Does this in itself prove anything ? The whole of the German people were protestants or catholics, so it can easily be imagined that, even if the need for a leader was high (suggested by the evidence), they wouldn't be ready to accept as their leader someone professing to be a pagan.

Very true. I'm sure that many politicians do fake believing in one thing or another. But I find it more likely that Hitler was just a fundamentalist who went off his rocker. The whole Third Reich... mmm, yeah. They probably had some pagan influence. Does that mean they weren't Christians? You've probably seen many references to Greek and Roman mythology in today's world, but you don't do anything about it. Would you consider renaming the planets, stars, and constellations? Or ban recognition of constellations altogether, since they obviously have pagan roots? How about Cupid on Valentine's day? Easter egg hunts? And many others...

The fact is, Christianity has always been integrating pagan ideas into its own system, after altering these ideas somewhat. It was done that way so Christians wouldn't start to fall away from the church -- they could do it knowing they would still be accepted by God.

Wait a sec...

"In 1935, Christian prayers in schools were stopped, and then all lessons concerning Christianity were banned."

"None of them knew that he made Christian school prayer mandatory for the 1930's German schoolchildren who grew up to be his dreaded SS..."

It seems that one of our sources is lying flat-out. I think that we'll have to take a closer look at this topic to find out the truth.

In the meantime, I found some more information from the same website about Hitler's beliefs.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Essays/Hitler.shtml

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However, without such questionable sources as uncorroborated hearsay accounts of private conversations, we discover a rather interesting phenomenon: the Hitler's seemingly conflicted statements suddenly become very consistent! He believed in natural evolution, but he also believed in special creation. Does that sound contradictory? It shouldn't, because many people still hold his beliefs today. He believed that Adam and Eve were created by God in his image, but he also believed that not all of us are descended from Adam and Eve (interestingly enough, one of the Christian fundamentalists on my Hate Mail page shares this belief). To be more specific, Hitler believed that the Aryan race was descended from Adam and Eve, but everyone else evolved naturally (I have personally encountered people who still believe this).

He believed that Jesus of Nazareth was an Aryan, not a Jew, and that Jesus fought the Jews and was killed by them. He believed in life after death, the supreme being, and universal creation. He opposed the Catholic church only because its seat of power was in Rome, not Berlin. He was intolerant of competing versions of Christianity (an approach lifted directly from the Catholic playbook), but at no time did he ever commit acts or express beliefs which were not expressed by other Christians before him such as Martin Luther (as well as certain Christians after him, right up to this day. The mere fact that the Lutherans refuse to change their name is very revealing; if there was a Hitlerian church, don't you think it would have changed its name?).

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Interesting... the source also has a long list of saying by Hitler from his "Mein Kampf."

I'll still be looking for another source about the policies in NAZI Germany.

<A HREF="http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc5.jpg">http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc5.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc5.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

[This message has been edited by KidKelko (edited 05-19-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

He believed that Adam and Eve were created by God in his image, but he also believed that not all of us are descended from Adam and Eve (interestingly enough, one of the Christian fundamentalists on my Hate Mail page shares this belief). To be more specific, Hitler believed that the Aryan race was descended from Adam and Eve, but everyone else evolved naturally (I have personally encountered people who still believe this).



This got me chuckling somewhat as I know the American "Nation of Islam" (which AFAIK has an entirely black membership) is professing the exact opposite and complementary (in the sense of opposites complementing each other)creed : they claim that only the black race (I suppose they use this word) was created by God, and whites were created by Satan.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Wait a sec...

"In 1935, Christian prayers in schools were stopped, and then all lessons concerning Christianity were banned."

"None of them knew that he made Christian school prayer mandatory for the 1930's German schoolchildren who grew up to be his dreaded SS..."

It seems that one of our sources is lying flat-out. I think that we'll have to take a closer look at this topic to find out the truth.

Very sharp, Clarphimous.

I am sorry and have to apologize to those writing very long posts, but I just can't find, take, and spend the time necessary to read those in length and reply to them... so I just try to find the parts I need, and want, to reply to.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-19-2004).]

I have found this interesting and intelligent text which talks about The State, wickedness, and whitewashing with Christian language. And watch the wisdom of King Solomon who knew about Big Brother even before Orwell did.

http://www.jesusradicals.com/essays/theology/nazis.html

As a further suggestion that, at the very least, powerful anti-Christian forces may have been at work in the Third Reich, let's mention the French mountain village Oradour (also known as Oradour-sur-Glane), where in 1944 most of the inhabitants are said to have been locked up in their church and burnt to death.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 05-19-2004).]

Uncus- I don't think that Clarphimous is trying to deny that the Nazi regime/ Hitler were "anti-christian". I think he's just trying to point out the fallacy of people (i.e. christian's) who claim that he was an atheist, and therefore that atheists are evil.

quote:As a further suggestion that, at the very least, powerful anti-Christian forces may have been at work in the Third Reich, let's mention the French mountain village Oradour (also known as Oradour-sur-Glane), where in 1944 most of the inhabitants are said to have been locked up in their church and burnt to death.

The guys who got burnt up in the church weren't real Christians since they fought against Hitler's church. They were heretics. They deserved to burn.

I guess you could categorize Hitler as a white supremacist, with the KKK. Remember, the KKK were Christians too.

quote:And watch the wisdom of King Solomon who knew about Big Brother even before Orwell did.

Ah, yes. Ecclesiastes, the one book of the Bible the SAB has nothing but good things to say about. Except it contradicts what a lot of the other books of the Bible say.

quote:Uncus- I don't think that Clarphimous is trying to deny that the Nazi regime/ Hitler were "anti-christian". I think he's just trying to point out the fallacy of people (i.e. christian's) who claim that he was an atheist, and therefore that atheists are evil.

According to Hitler, everyone who opposed him was anti-Christian.

'Christian' is a very flexible term. Furthermore, I don't think 'anti-Christian' is a good way to think of Hitler's regime. Just think evil.

The people burnt in the church had nothing to do with religion. It just happened to be a convenient way to make an example of the town (I believe it was provoked when a German officer was assassinated by the French Resistance)

quote:Originally posted by ergo:

?

so are you a practicing satanist,ie.

human sacrifice, shit eating, blood drinking, law breaking.

or just a knob that goes around dressed in black.

That kind of crap has nothing to do with modern satanism. We don't do human sacrifice. Since we do not believe in a god, sacrifice is useless anyway. I mean, if there is no god, who are you gonna sacrifice to? I never heard about Satanists eating shit. You must be a really crazy fucker to do that anyway. About blood drinking then, blood is used in some kinds of sausage, so it's not as gross and creepy as you might think.

I was looking back, and saw this. It reminded me of something.

quote:Originally posted by aplz:

Modern Satanists believe in neither God or Satan/Lucifer, but they believe in themselvs as a god. They don't believe in any superior force. They are there own god, and not something else.

<A HREF="http://www.deism.org/tompaine.gif">http://www.deism.org/tompaine.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://www.deism.org/tompaine.gif" width="90" height="90)</A>

And... about the Hitler stuff -- I think we've all heard enough. And I'm too lazy right now to find out what his policies were. No one cares.

KidKelko = 1

Satanakiddies = 0

Yeah, that's right you got

pwned!

I've always wanted to do that.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

I assure you, you're not the only one.

Most people just think I'm a little bullshitter when I say I'm a Satanist.. I guess it could have to with the fact that I don't walk around wearing all black and shit.. But who said Satanists had to be 'goth'? not me :P

Ooh, and Modern. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



[This message has been edited by stephanie666 (edited 05-28-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by aplz:

Modern Satanists believe in neither God or Satan/Lucifer, but they believe in themselvs as a god. They don't believe in any superior force. They are there own god, and not something else.



so youre saying im a satanist? i always considered myself atheist......could you clarify that classification a little more please.

quote:Originally posted by stephanie666:

I assure you, you're not the only one.

Most people just think I'm a little bullshitter when I say I'm a Satanist.. I guess it could have to with the fact that I don't walk around wearing all black and shit.. But who said Satanists had to be 'goth'? not me :P

Ooh, and Modern. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by stephanie666 (edited 05-28-2004).]



Can you tell me where this was directed?

Alright, I doubt any of you know who the hell I am but I have been on the forums for a year now. Now, I have seen a whole lot of ignorance in that time, but never as much as in this thread. To start off; there are THREE very different groups of Satanists out there. The Laveyan's who don't think Satan was even real but just a force. The Traditional's who worship the Christian Satan. And Spiritual Satanists who believe Satan is the true creator of humanity. I myself am a proud Spiritual Satanist and will focus on that because it's the one I know most about.

SATAN IS NOT EVIL. If any of you people did your homework you would know that Satan was worshipped thousands and thousands of years before Christianity even got dreamed up. Satanism is pure SCIENCE. Anyone here ever heard of a little empire called Sumeria? The oldest known civilization. Who was their God? Anybody? ENKI AKA SATAN. Satanism has nothing to do with murder, rape, blood sacrifices, or any of that shit. If any of you had ever really read the Bible, you would know that it is full of murder, rape, human sacrifices, deceit, torture, abortion, slavery advocation, etc.

I'll even give you a few things to look up in your precious Bible.

Numbers 31:17,18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women children, that hath not known a man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.

And what about 2 kings 2:23,24 where God sent 42 bears to kill 42 children for calling a man bald? (too lazy to type out the whole thing)

2 kings 15:16 Then Men'a-hem smote Tiph'sah, and all that were thirein, and the coasts thereof from Tir'zah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it: AND ALL THE WOMEN THEREIN THAT WERE WITH CHILD HE RIPPED UP.

Isaih 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Hosea 13:16 ...their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Good ol' Jesus said this: Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Must I continue? To begin to understand Satanism you have to first understand that the Christian God is a sick, evil fuck. Pull your heads out of your asses and think for yourselves for once. "God says Satan is bad so he must be." Fuck, what kind of God gives you free will then punishes you for using it? If any of you people cared to look at the numbers you would know that a very large portion of Atheists and *real* Satanists have very high IQ's, that should tell you something right there. Fuck, Einstein was was a damn Atheist. So all you Christians who think you're going to die and go to Heaven where you live in happiness forever, wake the fuck up. Here's a few links for those of you who are intelligent enough to want to educate yourself.

http://joyofsatan.com/ http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm http://www.geocities.com/llfptfu/llf2.html

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

The people burnt in the church had nothing to do with religion. It just happened to be a convenient way to make an example of the town (I believe it was provoked when a German officer was assassinated by the French Resistance)

It hadn't directly to do with religion, but as the enemy soldiers went ahead and burned the church with all those people inside, this indicates that there were anti-christian forces at work.

AFAIK, you are right about the retaliation aspect of this mass murder.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

It hadn't directly to do with religion, but as the enemy soldiers went ahead and burned the church with all those people inside, this indicates that there were anti-christian forces at work.

AFAIK, you are right about the retaliation aspect of this mass murder.

How does it indicate Anti-Christian forces at work? It was just a convieniant method of mass-murder. Not an anti-christian demonstration.