since there is no evidence of gods existense why do you believe in god

is it because you need to be more comfortable with death or can you not stand the idea that we can govern ourselves or are you all just brainwashed idiots

i personaly believe most of you are the third one

What is wrong with your arguement is the definition of god. I have my own belief that does not involve the christian god. Soo why not be a good boy and redefine god before making your yappy little claims.

god is a supernatural being if you define him as being the universe then there is no point why not just call everything the universe which is what it is if you define it as love or some such other shit the same thing goes

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

god is a supernatural being if you define him as being the universe then there is no point why not just call everything the universe which is what it is if you define it as love or some such other shit the same thing goes

Alrighty I'll define god as being an omnipresent energy with no free-will. Thats the basic of it, and I'm happy living in my own little world with this belief. The people you really should worry about are the ones who go around forcing their beliefs on other people. I used to be the scientific way until (Insert event here that would be doubted) made me believe. Alrighty, now I'll continue to live my own special way and you (I hope) will continue to live your way the way you wish. Have fun! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Edit: And to the original three questions: I'd actually be alright with death even with no god, as long as I have my mind before death. Looking across the schoolyard people who do believe in god and even those that don't still won't govern themselves, they will just find loopholes in law (Book based or other), get pleasure, and continue to live on. I'd describe it as more of the Insane type, as they come in the stupid and the intelligent as long as they don't mention it to much I'm fine with their beliefs. Weeeheee! Sugar!



[This message has been edited by Mojo Hojo (edited 05-15-2004).]

i believe in GOD because he will put the one who posted this post in HELL for ever then you will find that GOD exists and it will be too late

mojo thats fine with me that you just define god as omnipresent energy it doesnt mean you are really worshiping anything or wasting your life

as for you princecharmant what evidence do you have of god that makes you so sure of your beliefes how do you know the koran is telling the truth maybe the idea of god was just created by insane power hungary individuals

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

mojo thats fine with me that you just define god as omnipresent energy it doesnt mean you are really worshiping anything or wasting your life

as for you princecharmant what evidence do you have of god that makes you so sure of your beliefes how do you know the koran is telling the truth maybe the idea of god was just created by insane power hungary individuals

the first monotheist relligion is Judaisme then came christianity and then came Islam

it's like cars the newest car are more advanced than old ones!

But they all break down after 10 years.

yea they are like cars the newer ones are made out of plastic and the old ones used to be made out of real steel plus the old ones anyone could repair but the new ones only highly trained technicians with high tech stuff can fix them but they were all designed to break down enough so you have to buy an new one soon not to mention all the polution they cause

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

yea they are like cars the newer ones are made out of plastic and the old ones used to be made out of real steel plus the old ones anyone could repair but the new ones only highly trained technicians with high tech stuff can fix them but they were all designed to break down enough so you have to buy an new one soon not to mention all the polution they cause

Let's make god powered on hydrogen! But then he would be raining water on us all the time.

What evidence do i have that god exists? What evidence do you have that god doesn't? This argument is pointless and can't go very far in the eyes of someone who has made their mind up about the subject... For you to start this thread, and try to put other people down because of their faith (brainwashed idiots), in something higher is ignorant. People believe in god for boundless reasons, reasons you may one day grasp. Until then i suppose you, and people like you (intellectual wanabes) will continue to put other people down, in order to try to justify and make yourself feel better about your faith, or lack there of. "Most of us" may be the third, brainwashed or leading a life of blind faith, but you and your disbelief, in this, you are the minority, and seemingly the idiot.

[This message has been edited by drBOX (edited 05-16-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Why believe? Because to do otherwise would mean blinding myself to the facts.

Iv'e said it before and I'll keep on saying it until someone can destroy it, or till people get sick of asking.

There's a historical event that just refuses to be explained away. That a man named Yeshua, lived, claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, was put to death and died. Shortly after his tomb was found to be empty and a rapidly increasing number of people, first in that same city, were proclaiming that he had overcome death and that they had seen him alive again. Of these same people many would go onto die for what they proclaimed, that Yeshua was God among us.

Destroy a historical resurrection and you destroy christianity.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." - Paul (1 Cor 15:14) cAD55. Who left not only his respected position and privilige to proclaim this, but died for it.

quote:

Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Plus, we have a number of very bright atheists, who can, and have countered every arguement that the resident theists routinely bring.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

every argument....hmmm.... except, for instance, the two main things that the God presented in Judaism and Christianity claimed for his divinity-

"Bring in your idols to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so that we may know that you are gods." - Isaiah 41:22-23

'Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

He answered, "A wicked and unfaithful generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here" '

-Matt12:38-41

that is, fulfilled prophecy and the resurrection.

quote:Originally posted by drBOX:

What evidence do i have that god exists? What evidence do you have that god doesn't? This argument is pointless and can't go very far in the eyes of someone who has made their mind up about the subject... For you to start this thread, and try to put other people down because of their faith (brainwashed idiots), in something higher is ignorant. People believe in god for boundless reasons, reasons you may one day grasp. Until then i suppose you, and people like you (intellectual wanabes) will continue to put other people down, in order to try to justify and make yourself feel better about your faith, or lack there of. "Most of us" may be the third, brainwashed or leading a life of blind faith, but you and your disbelief, in this, you are the minority, and seemingly the idiot.

[This message has been edited by drBOX (edited 05-16-2004).]

i dont see any more reason to believe in god than the invisible purple cat sitting beside me there is no proof either way thats why it is stupid for people to wast 1/7 of thier lives to believe in. not to mention always creating new sects and killing each other over very slight differences in sects

The way life works is so damn perfect that it surely can't be accidental.

Science tells us that we are "programed" for religion because it aids in our survival(people live longer if they believe in something)and it is just a trait that was passed down because of survival of the fittest. I don't believe in that, but it is a posible explanation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_deception

Self deception

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Self deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and argument. Typically, self deception is used to maintain false beliefs or delusions that one has an emotional attachment to. Self deception can also include the defensive process of controlling and interrupting a discussion in order to try to prevent the opposing evidence and argument from even being presented.

Generally, the person engaged in self deception is unaware that they are illogically defending their beliefs. It has been argued that humans are without exception highly susceptible to self deception, as everyone has beliefs they are emotionally attached to.

-------------------------------------------------------- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Cognitive dissonance

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Cognitive dissonance is a theory proposed by the psychologist Leon Festinger in 1957.

Cognitive dissonance is a state that an individual reaches once he has an imbalance between cognitions. For the purpose of this theory, cognitions are defined as being an attitude, emotion, belief or value, or even a mixture of these cognitions.

Conflicting cognitions: cognitive dissonance

Once two cognitions are held and there is a conflict of interests between them, the individual falls into a state of cognitive dissonance. This may be demonstrated by an individual purchasing a brand of washing machine, initially believing that it was the best product to buy. This person's cognition is that good washing machine has been bought. However, after the purchase, the individual may be exposed to another cognition that informs her that there is a better washing machine out on the market (for example, through an advertisement). This then leads to an imbalance between her cognitions and a psychological state which needs to seek consonance between the two cognitions.

Ways to reduce cognitive dissonance

A person in a state of cognitive dissonance will then seek consonance. There are various ways to achieve this. However, changing a cognition gives some discomfort: one has to reflect and admit to oneself that one has had a wrong cognition.

Therefore, rather than adapt to these cognitions, one may deride the new improved washing machine, and perceive the new advertisement as untrue. This is another way of allowing one's cognitions to be in a consonant state once more.

However, there are even more ways of reducing the state of dissonance. One example is through selecting information after the purchase. It might be that a person would purposefully avoid other washing machine advertisements knowing that the decision had been made and finding out about other products could lead to some discomfort.

Festinger proposed that cognitive dissonance is a similar psychological tension to hunger and thirst and that people will seek to resolve this tension.

Reduction of cognitive dissonance is good because one feels better, and because one can come closer to consonance by eliminating contradictions. On the other hand some of the ways of reduction of cognitive dissonance involve a distortion of the truth, which may cause wrong decisions. The harder way of changing favorable cognitions may in the longer run be better.

Cognitive dissonance and conspiracy theories

Some people believe that cognitive dissonance can be instrumental in the creation of conspiracy theories. Suppose that Fred believes that satanic ritual abuse kills hundreds of thousands every year. However, these supposed deaths don't get reported in the media. This leads Fred into cognitive dissonance, which he can resolve either by changing his belief in satanic ritual abuse, or by believing that satanic cultists have infiltrated the media. In the latter case, Fred's original belief is augmented by a new belief in a media conspiracy, and this starts the process towards the creation of a new conspiracy theory.

-------------------------------------------------------- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

Wishful thinking

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Wishful thinking is making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence or rationality.

Studies have consistently shown that, holding all else equal, subjects will predict positive outcomes to be more likely than negative outcomes. See positive outcome bias.

Prominent examples of wishful thinking include:

Economist Irving Fisher said that "stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau" a few weeks before Black Thursday in 1929, which helped to trigger the Great Depression

Paul Wolfowitz predicted "an explosion of joy will greet our soldiers" in the run-up to the 2003 Iraq War

President John F. Kennedy believed that, if overpowered by Cuban forces, the CIA-backed rebels could "escape destruction by melting into the countryside" in the Bay of Pigs fiasco

Logical Fallacy

In addition to being a cognitive bias and a poor way of making decisions, wishful thinking can also be a specific logical fallacy in an argument occurring when it is assumed that because we wish something was true or false then it is actually is true or false.

For example:

The teacher gave us a difficult exam! We shouldn't have to be subjected to such stress under the course of our education.

It may be that it was uncomfortable, but that does not mean that uncomfortable things should always be avoided. Wishful thinking underlies appeals to emotion, and is a red herring.

(Edited for ease of reading)

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 05-17-2004).]

I believe in God because I know it's the truth.

but no one can force that on you, you have to find it for yourself and make your own decision.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

the first monotheist relligion is Judaisme then came christianity and then came Islam

it's like cars the newest car are more advanced than old ones!

Become a Baha'i then.

to the starter of this thread: why do you give a fuck about what idiots like me think? thats a much better question.

id be willing to bet that someting in your life pissed you off, and now your angry at god because your a weak little cocksucker.

or, you truly take a scientific perspective of this, and want to look down your nose at someone. you want to sneer at us in all your self deluded glory.

either way, your a cocksucker. go get a life and stop caring about why we do what we do.

Most people who come close to dieing all see close to the same thing. Some have died for a time then come back and say something about what they saw. It matters not on what they saw just that they saw something.

But the problem is that we feel a need to define "God" as something. An infinte and all powerful being. How can that be when this world is finite? Thus "God" doesn't exist. But why did all of those people see something when they "died?"

I don't think we should believe anything. Just keep an idea. There is no god, is just an idea, just as there is a god is just one, it is an opionion and you should just take it as one.

It is really pointless to argue this point and all I am going to do is live. The difference between right and wrong lies in the grey area. Its the intention, not the action. Therefor I don't think "God" is going to judge us.

Just another opinion for the thread.

Why do I beleive in God???

Because the bible is so old, and yet amazingly difficult to prove infallible. And i have seen so many arguements against the bible to prove its infallible, but then ive seen so many arguements that put those all to nothing.

Anyone who has a deep knowledge of the bible cant help but be transfixed by it, its such an amazing book, everytime you read it you learn more from it. the more you cross reference its accounts with archaeology the more accurate it becomes.

And then you get to the prophecies... thats why i beleive in god. Its just an amazing book, and it really does help me get through bad times by being religious.

Half the time i think most people say they hate religion or dont belive in god because its cool to do so. I only respect those who actually do there own research to come to a position in which god doesnt exist for them, i respect them for that, i just cant take people who cling on for the whole "i hate god and listen to slipknot" ride.

quote:Most people who come close to dieing all see close to the same thing.

Just like how most people have the same type of dreams. It's a social effect -- most of our minds are very similar. Which is also why masses of people can be brainwashed into believing whatever a persuasive authority tells them.

Do you think déjà vu is real? Sure, it seems like it does, and the Matrix would have us believe it is. But it's more of a bug in our brain chemistry than the matrix.

quote:But the problem is that we feel a need to define "God" as something. An infinte and all powerful being. How can that be when this world is finite? Thus "God" doesn't exist. But why did all of those people see something when they "died?"

If you want a way to believe that God exists somewhere, and he/she is infinite and all-powerful, then realize that the universe that we see is only what we can detect. There are actually multiple dimensions folded up within what is normally seen, but these dimensions are only used to fill in the blanks for superstring theories and the like. We don't know what's beyond the visible universe -- heck, a human hasn't even made it past the moon. Maybe that'll change soon.

But I think it's absurd to believe in a God that can be described by a bunch of cut-and-paste religious texts. If God can be found, it's through reason. I'm not even sure of that.

quote:It is really pointless to argue this point and all I am going to do is live. The difference between right and wrong lies in the grey area. Its the intention, not the action. Therefor I don't think "God" is going to judge us.

From what I've read, morality only exists in our heads. There was an article in the April 2004 edition of the Discover magazine about that. It's called "Whose Life Would You Save?" I can't post the entire thing here, but I'm willing to e-mail it to whoever wants to read.

"Hume argued that people call an act good not because they rationally determine it to be so but because it makes them feel good. They call an act bad because it fills them with disgust."

"Moral insticts have deep roots, primatologists have found. Last September, for instance, Sarah Brosnan and Frans de Waal of Emory University reported that monkeys have a sense of fairness. Brosnan and De Waal trained capuchin monkeys to take a pebble from them; if the monkeys gave the pebble back, they got a cucumber. Then they ran the same experiment with two monkeys sitting in adjacent cages so that each could see the other. One monkey still got a cucumber, but the other one got a grape -- a tastier reward. More than half the monkeys who got cucumbers balked at the exchange. Sometimes they threw the cucumbers at the researchers; sometimes they refused to give the pebble back. Apparently, De Waal says, they realized that they weren't being treated fairly."

"The evolutionary origins of morality are easy to imagine in a social species. A sense of fairness would have heled early primates cooperate. A sense of disgust and anger at cheaters would have helped them avoid falling into squabbling. As our ancestors became more self-aware and acquired language, they would transform those feelings into moral codes they then taught their children."

My personal belief is that you should do whatever would make you happiest. Often this would be doing what is morally right. If you do something that others consider morally wrong, you'll end up suffering. And remember, your actions influence how others behave. Show a good example and others might behave similarly.

For example: don't treat animals with both cruelty and indifference if you don't want someone thinking of the possibility of doing the same thing to humans (which includes yourself). You wouldn't like the thought of someone who had social power stuffing you in a cage, now would you?

Death's a weird subject, simply because none of us really know what happens afterwards. You may have heard of those after-death experiences, but they are only the subconscious reacting to chemical stimulation, which produces such experiences and memories. All I know is what it isn't -- dancing in heaven with a bunch of angels or lying with dozens of virgins for all eternity.

quote:Because the bible is so old, and yet amazingly difficult to prove infallible.

You meant something like 'difficult to prove fallacious,' right? Well, I'd have to disagree. Not because I hate the Bible, but because of what I've learned about its history. You'd do well to read some of the articles by Frank R. Zindler.

http://www.atheists.org/church/realbible.html

This one is about which version of the Bible is the right one. If you're saying that the Bible is almost impossible to prove wrong, you have to tell us which one.

http://www.atheists.org/church/myth.html http://www.atheists.org/church/didjesusexist.html http://www.atheists.org/church/jesuslife.html http://www.atheists.org/church/ozjesus.html

Four articles by Zindler that say Jesus never existed. I bet you can't go through all those without a good deal of doublethink.

The Skeptics Annotated Bible is also very useful for finding contradictions. But my personal favorite was on -- get this -- a Jewish website. Two short articles: one on the heredity of Jesus, the other on the symbolic references to the passover.

http://www.torahatlanta.com/articles/Problems%20with%20Jesus'%20Lineage.htm http://www.torahatlanta.com/articles/Passover%20Lamb.html

The prophesies in Matthew fulfilled rarely have anything to do with what they meant in the Old Testament. Explain the prophesy of where Jesus came from. How did they know he was to come from Nazereth?

1. Nazareth probably didn't even exist at 1 A.D.

2. There are no prophesies in the Old Testament about Nazereth.

However, Frank Zindler explains this beautifully.

<<<<<<<<<<Before Jesus could be given a biography, he had to receive a name. Actually, he received several names and, as we shall see, all of his names were really titles. Thus, the name Jesus of Nazareth originally was not a name at all, but rather a title meaning (The) Savior, (The) Branch. In Hebrew this would have been Yeshua‘ Netser. The word Yeshua‘ means 'savior,' and Netser means 'sprout,' 'shoot,' or 'branch' - a reference to Isaiah 11:1, which was thought to predict a messiah (lit., 'anointed one') of the line of Jesse (King David's father): "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots…"

While this reference to a branch from Jesse will doubtless seem obscure to modern readers, it would not have been obscure to ancient Jews such as those who composed the Dead Sea Scrolls (and wrote a commentary on Isaiah 11:1); nor would it have been obscure to the early Christians. According to the church father Epiphanius, who was born on Cyprus in 367 C.E. and wrote a treatise against "heretics," the Christians originally were called Jessaeans, precisely because of the messianic tie to Jesse. [21]

Although for speakers of Hebrew and its close cousin Aramaic the meaning and prophetic significance of the title The Savior, The Branch would have been clear, after it had been wrestled into Greek as or , its titular significance must soon have been forgotten. The part came to be a simple name ( in Latin) of the Tom, Dick, or Harry sort. The part, however, was misperceived as being derived from the name of a place - the imaginary village of Nazareth - much as the word Parisian can be derived from Paris.

And so, Yeshua‘ Netser came to be Jesus of Nazareth - a name of the Jimmy-the-Greek sort, a name thought to contain information on a person's place of origin. (There may have been an intermediate Wizard-of-Oz period, combining a title with a place name: The Savior of Nazareth.)>>>>>>>>>>

Go Inform Yourself.

I do agree that dreams can very well be a social effect. Fraud proved that to an extent. But that is to say that when we die for the first while we dream. Aren't these different, for if you truly believe you are going to die you will. The steps of death are first would come denial, second anger, depression, bargining, then acceptance, that is the psycological steps of the brain. That would be to say that these people didn't go through that process and just dreampt of a light and perhaps something after. Which could be seeing as how thing such as pain or blood loss could make a person pass out, and dream.

But how do these people come back to life? Is it really that truely believe that they chose to come back to life? No doubt it is possible, I just find it illogical. Because the brain couldn't stay alive long enough for some of them. (I've heard of as much as an hour and about 15 min.) And I would think that the brain would die after 40 min. How long can the brain survive after the heart has stopped circulating blood?

Let's suppose you have an program on a computer. It's for Artificial Intelligence. And it's so realistic, that it is a self-aware being. What happens when you ctrl+alt+del the program? This 'person' flashes out of existence or goes into limbo or something. When you turn the program back on, our intelligent being may have some glitches in his memory, thanks to the program that sustains it. But it has no will, no ability to turn the program back on after its thoughts have stopped.

And in a dream, it's impossible to die. Your subconscious makes sure of that. One time I did dream I died, and I just faded into being awake. Strange, huh?

^^^Alright that didn't explain anything.

And if its impossible to die how did you die?

For Franky,

http://www.tektonics.org/zindler01.html

http://www.tektonics.org/zindler02.html

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

Anyone who claims that Jesus never existed is on about the same level as those that claim the earth is flat. The best of the critics are left with the task of trying to destroy the traditional image of Jesus and strip him of anything supernatural.

Why? because a mythical christ makes no uncomfortable claims.

[This message has been edited by inquisitor_11 (edited 05-18-2004).]

cus He believes in you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Why? because a mythical christ makes no uncomfortable claims.

Christ's claims don't make me uncomfortable, it's the claims made about Christ. And I'm only uncomfortable then because I've got adults trying to tell me that the myths they believe are based on fact.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

For Franky,

http://www.tektonics.org/zindler01.html

http://www.tektonics.org/zindler02.html

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

Anyone who claims that Jesus never existed is on about the same level as those that claim the earth is flat. The best of the critics are left with the task of trying to destroy the traditional image of Jesus and strip him of anything supernatural.

Why? because a mythical christ makes no uncomfortable claims.

[This message has been edited by inquisitor_11 (edited 05-18-2004).]

yeh maybe jesus did exist...doesn't mean he's God.

the world is flat, in this room at least, because the builders made it so

I don't believe in jesus (being jewish0). But I do believe he existed, just that he was a bit crazy, and that if he was the Messiah why is there still war, i pretty much agree with CroaT. Anyway maybe there is a G-d or not, but the most important thing is no other theory of the universe fits every single thing that exists.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Christ's claims don't make me uncomfortable, it's the claims made about Christ. And I'm only uncomfortable then because I've got adults trying to tell me that the myths they believe are based on fact.

Are you rejecting them as myths just cause your parents are saying them or are actually looking at the evidences? (Which from what i've seen, you generally are)

quote:Originally posted by CroaT:

yeh maybe jesus did exist...doesn't mean he's God.

the world is flat, in this room at least, because the builders made it so

The only problem is that he claimed that he was God, and that doesn't leave us many options.

It either means that he was or he wasn't. If he did truely believe he was God, than he was a nutcase. If he didn't he was a liar who died willingly for his own lie...

Wasn't it Christian apologists who were trying to prove the earth is flat? I don't find apologists very reliable when it comes to being logical and consistent. They take lots of stuff out of context, whap whap, throw in a few pages of irrelevant information, and say they've proven their point. I don't find their arguments convincing enough to make me believe a magical man came to earth born of a virgin, who resurrected the dead, walked on water, controlled the weather, turned water to wine, and came back from the dead after preaching the good news about being perfect and living in heaven. Uh-uh, for that I need proof. And circular reasoning doesn't work, don't go pointing to all those times he calls people "faithless".

I've been looking up stuff on the internet. Here's a couple odd things I found.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040408.wxharpur08/BNStory/Entertainment/

http://essenes.net/

From what I can guess, he may have been a real person, but what we find in the New Testament was just ripped off from a bunch of ancient myths, and integrated as well as possible into current Jewish tradition. Or not.

Still, that Essenes site has me a bit confused. Vegans and Buddhism? Weird...

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Are you rejecting them as myths just cause your parents are saying them or are actually looking at the evidences?

I don't think there's any evidence to look at. I have no reason to take the Bible any more seriously than any other ancient mythology.

I have absolutely no problem writing Jesus off as a nutcase. We have plenty of examples of people who thought they were divine who convinced their followers the same thing - Charles Manson, David Koresh, Rael.

I do believe in gods (not God) only because if i dont believe in a higher power, then i would turn into an angry anarchist... not that there's anything wrong with angry anarchists incase any are reading.... i just dont wanna deal with asking the big questions and questioning reality and all that. Ignorant may be ugly to those who's eyes are open, but to the ignorant one's, its bliss. And dont yell at the ignorant christians for being ignorant. Unless you are willing to teach them and take the time and energy to change them, dont scream at them cause then your just doing what they do to everyone else.

or maybe nihilism i just am getting pissed off by religious people who try and say what i can and cant do

nevermind i have read some of the bible the prophecies are always something you can say A say it happened or B say it will happen not to mention how vague they are. and by the way i think cortes came in the exact year that the aztecs had predicted quetzelquatels return that is what i consider a prophecy come true but how many people are aztecs now none.

clarphimous i also read that article and found the train delema particularly interesting but i think morals developed because we needed to form groups but wars still happened because we condidered the other group as different and offen inferrior. however because of the fact that morals are subjective to what we want to believe

Since the beginning of time people needed four things to live Food, Water, warmth and beleiveing in something. That beleif is god, god was made by poeple. God is just a tale that gives poeple a hope thats why so many beleive in it. There is no heaven, no hell. Thats it.

Imagine doing what Jesus does, even if it's mythical, who is to say that those things can never be done by us some day? There is no proof only evidence.

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

since there is no evidence of gods existense why do you believe in god

is it because you need to be more comfortable with death or can you not stand the idea that we can govern ourselves or are you all just brainwashed idiots

i personaly believe most of you are the third oneThe problem with your question is that it starts with with an assumption that is not provable. That assumption is that God would either exist, or not exist. In other words, God is more basic than existence, or God is above existence. So then, how does a person even talk about God? Well it is a start when it is realized that God cannot be defined by any question or definition that tries to limit "him".

Only one thing can be proved.

Does anybody understand what bkc was trying to say?

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Does anybody understand what bkc was trying to say?

Interesting response. What part don't you get? Its the same thing I always say.

[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 05-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by NeoCide:

Since the beginning of time people needed four things to live Food, Water, warmth and beleiveing in something. That beleif is god, god was made by poeple. God is just a tale that gives poeple a hope thats why so many beleive in it. There is no heaven, no hell. Thats it.

It's more likely that ancient people started believing in gods because of natural events they could not explain. What sort of thing could they possibly have related to when they saw lightning from the sky, volcanoes erupt, spewing forth lava, even their own reflections in the water?

Want my opinion? Gods are the explanation of the unknown.

From the unknown we get have a sense of hope, power, and knowledge of a purpose on earth and afterlife. Religion fills in the void of the unknown with human-created, simplistic answers. That's what religion is all about -- the unknown.

As we find out more of what is and what isn't, we have proven many pagan religions to be wrong. The monotheistic religions we know But people do rely on the hope and power of the unknown. They can't give up the answers they think they know. It would only leave a void, an emptyness, a waste of a life.

That's what's left of me. An ex-Christian, my life is purposeless except to experience life itself. To gain pleasure and avoid displeasure. And in reality, that's all I see for anyone. When a person seeks something in religion, they seek pleasure. They find fulfillment, and often avoid the displeasure of choosing from multiple decisions, with absolutism. Remember my post about the Christian decision-making process? The disciples had recently lost Judas, after he hung himself (Matthew 27:1-10) or fell in the field and burst his guts all over the place (Acts 1:18-19). All the disciples had to do was pray to God, and choose at random to pick between the two disciples. And naturally, they knew God had made the right choice for them. But there is really nothing in the unknown worth thinking about. No elemental forces of witchcraft, no spiritual guidance, no moral rights and wrongs.

Why do we get satisfaction from finding answers? Simply put, if we didn't, then there would be no motivation for finding solutions to problems faced through our lives. Our ancestors who did receive pleasure after discovering an answer, generally did find the answers more often, and lived to pass on their genes. Here's where the solution-found --> pleasure wiring is used by religion. Religion supposedly has all the answers to life. At the same time, religious people will only find out most of the answers after they die, but they still know that they'll know the answers eventually.

I basically said the same thing as NeoCide, but in a different way. Does it make any more sense?

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

since there is no evidence of gods existense why do you believe in god

is it because you need to be more comfortable with death or can you not stand the idea that we can govern ourselves or are you all just brainwashed idiots

i personaly believe most of you are the third one

quote:Originally posted by bkc:

The problem with your question is that it starts with with an assumption that is not provable. That assumption is that God would either exist, or not exist. In other words, God is more basic than existence, or God is above existence. So then, how does a person even talk about God? Well it is a start when it is realized that God cannot be defined by any question or definition that tries to limit "him".

Only one thing can be proved.

Actually, it is possible to have proof that there is a God. And do you know how? God could prove it.

BUT HE HASN'T.

Isn't that so odd? You'd think that if he wanted everyone to worship him he'd prove it by simply bellowing out in a great voice over all the land "I am God, worship me because I love all my children and I want you to use these things to live by." But no, that's not the way God works. He wants us to choose if he exists. He also wants us to choose which religion to follow, and which interpretation of that religion. For Christianity, he also wants us to brainwash ourselves into simultaneously accepting contradictory passages in the Bible, always thinking there's an explanation somewhere else.

The Bible has disclaimers about such things. The Bible says God makes us think that he doesn't exist so that he can bring us back to Christianity. Another disclaimer is where it says he hurts us because he loves us. If you add up all the verses about God treating us well and poorly, you'll find this:

God blesses us his favored people.

God harms his favored people.

God blesses those not favored.

God harms those not favored.

By favored, it can mean those who do good and/or believe, or those he just liked from favoritism. Of course, at the same time, he doesn't show favoritism. But he does. And he doesn't.

God is everything at once. But he's certain things when you want him to be. I think 1984 has some interesting terms to look at.

<<<<<<<<<<Winston sank his arms to his sides and slowly refilled his lungs with air. His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.>>>>>>>>>>

<<<<<<<<<<Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity. But stupidity is not enough. On the contrary, orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one's own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.>>>>>>>>>>

<<<<<<<<<<'But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach for ever.'

'What are the stars?' said O'Brien indifferently. 'They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the centre of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it.'

Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection:

'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?'>>>>>>>>>>

And here's something a lot of people have been saying recently.

<<<<<<<<<<'You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else.'>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, listen to good old O'Brien. He's perfectly sane. Doesn't the stars thing remind you of something? Like Revelations?

Once again, if God really existed, wouldn't he have shown himself by now? Wouldn't Jesus's prophesies about his disciples seeing the second coming come true? Oh, but those weren't really prophesies about his second coming, and/or he didn't mean his disciples when he said 'this generation'. Yes, I understand how you can trick yourself into thinking that. You can fill in any answers that fit in with history and somehow metaphorically fit with his sayings (somehow, deep within your mind in a way you only understand through 'faith'). But keep in mind that you ARE only tricking yourself, that you are ignoring important facts that might make you stray from your beloved religion. If you're willing to believe such things, then why don't you just go and believe that those extra-terrestrials are really angels, and they give us crop-circles as messages from God (despite the fact that crop-circles have been proven to be man-made) and they visit us in dreams and abduct us to give us messages through God, and everything can be explained this way. Sure, with some twisting here and there it can fit the gap of your mind left for what's unknown, but you're only fooling yourself. And you're also insane.

That's all I have to say for now. Bye-bye.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I don't think there's any evidence to look at. I have no reason to take the Bible any more seriously than any other ancient mythology.

I have absolutely no problem writing Jesus off as a nutcase. We have plenty of examples of people who thought they were divine who convinced their followers the same thing - Charles Manson, David Koresh, Rael.

Then you must have chosen to ignore everything I've brought up in this forum.

Charles Manson, David Koresh, Rael all convinced their followers, but no one (who wasn't their follower) rates them as "great teachers" or something like that.

Clarphimous- the Essenes references to Jesus (from memory) are pretty sketchy. There is a number of extrabiblical references to Christ. However as with everything that supports the Christian concept of Jesus there's a fair bit of criticism (some good, a lot is poor).

However, without using the bible, you can construct (to varying degrees) that a man called Jesus existed, miracles and teachings were attributed to him, he was executed and shortly after his tomb was found to be empty.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Actually, it is possible to have proof that there is a God. And do you know how? God could prove it.

Only one thing can be proven, and that is God. Of course, if "he" is not proven to YOU, then he is not proven. If you have proved him to yourself, then he is proven.

When proven, he can still exist, or not exist.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Then you must have chosen to ignore everything I've brought up in this forum.

Charles Manson, David Koresh, Rael all convinced their followers, but no one (who wasn't their follower) rates them as "great teachers" or something like that.

Clarphimous- the Essenes references to Jesus (from memory) are pretty sketchy. There is a number of extrabiblical references to Christ. However as with everything that supports the Christian concept of Jesus there's a fair bit of criticism (some good, a lot is poor).

However, without using the bible, you can construct (to varying degrees) that a man called Jesus existed, miracles and teachings were attributed to him, he was executed and shortly after his tomb was found to be empty.

can anyone name a single person who so much as mentioned Jesus that lived during his life besides a brief mention by josefus

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

can anyone name a single person who so much as mentioned Jesus that lived during his life besides a brief mention by josefus



Theres a few...

I've mentioned this sort of stuff in previous threads so i'll resort to posting links.

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html

I only found this site recently, but as apologetics sites go its pretty good and relevant.

My feelings on the belief in God fall more toward the Theory of the Universal Mind. I'm just going to assume none of you are familiar with it and define it for you. The Theory of the Universal Mind states that all matter has some sort of psyche (much as Shintoism and some sects of Buddhism state) and that the psyche contained with in is simply part of a large pool. When a human is born, they obviously have specific atoms, i.e. they don't share parts with each other on a molecular level. This unique collection of parts makes up your inner drive and determines your bodily chemistry, the chemical abundances or deficiencies in your brain, etc. That fact can be concretely proven, and already has, so I will not bother trying to go in more detail about that. I beleive that, while we are simply part of a great pool, when we die our psyche stays as its previous self until bits and pieces are taken and made into other organisms. Your soul is eternal but its form is not. This would also account for the gradual mental and social evolution of a species, for the relics of the past could never be completely looked over until several layers of this psychic build-up cover the past. But by then, the present has already built and expanded upon it, so it is no longer needed.

quote:Originally posted by Kryolotor:

My feelings on the belief in God fall more toward the Theory of the Universal Mind. I'm just going to assume none of you are familiar with it and define it for you. The Theory of the Universal Mind states that all matter has some sort of psyche (much as Shintoism and some sects of Buddhism state) and that the psyche contained with in is simply part of a large pool. When a human is born, they obviously have specific atoms, i.e. they don't share parts with each other on a molecular level. This unique collection of parts makes up your inner drive and determines your bodily chemistry, the chemical abundances or deficiencies in your brain, etc. That fact can be concretely proven, and already has, so I will not bother trying to go in more detail about that. I beleive that, while we are simply part of a great pool, when we die our psyche stays as its previous self until bits and pieces are taken and made into other organisms. Your soul is eternal but its form is not. This would also account for the gradual mental and social evolution of a species, for the relics of the past could never be completely looked over until several layers of this psychic build-up cover the past. But by then, the present has already built and expanded upon it, so it is no longer needed.

has anyone who believes this ever taken a physics class there are certain rules that will allways be true atoms move in a specific way you put the same atom in the same conditions it will always do the same thing. but we cant predict or control them to well so that doesnt mean they have a soul.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Charles Manson, David Koresh, Rael all convinced their followers, but no one (who wasn't their follower) rates them as "great teachers" or something like that.

So? Whether he was a "great teacher" or not has no relevance to the question of whether he was divine or not.

How can you consider life so divine if it is so easily corrupted and destroyed by such a pathetic force such as humans?

<A HREF="http://www.antiqueweird.com/nun01.jpg">http://www.antiqueweird.com/nun01.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://www.antiqueweird.com/nun01.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

So? Whether he was a "great teacher" or not has no relevance to the question of whether he was divine or not.



Yeah, but it has everything to do with his sanity.

Sane people don't claim to be God.

Sane people don't claim that they will die and be resurrected 3 days later as evidence that they are God.

Odd, I've always looked at divinity under the exact opposite light.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Yeah, but it has everything to do with his sanity.

No, not really. A madman can speak truth. There are plenty of plurry crazy folks around.

quote:Sane people don't claim to be God.

Well, yeah. That's kind of my point.

I think it's far more likely that there were crazy people around 2000 years ago than that there were gods in human form around 2000 years ago.

At least we know crazy people exist.

quote:Sane people don't claim that they will die and be resurrected 3 days later as evidence that they are God.

I would like to add "Sane people don't claim that other people were resurrected without damn good evidence.", but I'm being respectful so I won't.

New religions? More than one religion? Juzt proves there is no basis of fact behind any of them. That doesn't mean you can't believe in them, just don't mess with me, waste your own life.

Yeah, a madman can speak truth, but rarely are they put on the level of being one of our greatest moral teachers (from a secular humanist P of V).



quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I would like to add "Sane people don't claim that other people were resurrected without damn good evidence.", but I'm being respectful so I won't.

That's exactly right so either:

a) I am insane

b) There is good evidence

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980:

i believe in GOD because he will put the one who posted this post in HELL for ever then you will find that GOD exists and it will be too late

or perhaps, when you lay there dying, a feeling of bliss floats through your consiouness. you smile and prepare to go with god. then darkness closes in, and even in your weakend state panic grips your mind, and you realize that you are really going to die, there is no god, and because of that stupid smile you planted on your face more people are going to waste there lives living as others tell them to. Your last thoudgt, before darkness closes over, is that of utter humileation, before no witness but yourself. it is just as likely as your prediction.

Edit:spelling

[This message has been edited by Duck (edited 06-02-2004).]

Hah! Well said, Duck.

I'm seeing alot of arguments from popularity here. Just because many people claimed that Jesus was this supernatural unfraggable respawning entity doesn't make it so.

I'm going with the mass hystaria theory.

Anybody here familiar with the "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast of 1953 and what it did?

Long story short, it was a fictional story and everyone was in a panic thinking little green men from outer space were invading Earth.

Exaguration, legendary development, the telephone effect, etc.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

The way life works is so damn perfect that it surely can't be accidental.

heh. A puddle will fit perfectily in a depression in the ground. does that mean the earth was created to perfectily accomidate the puddle? or does it mean that the puddle changed its shape to accomidate a depression in the ground?

By the way, thanks for the compliment, Dark_Magneto.



Edit: to answer the starter of this thread, I give you my philosophy: Ignorance is bliss, Ignorance is the only crime. And in america, you have the right to pursue happiness(at least in the decleration of independence), so you can have any damn stupid idea you want, based on no facts at all, and be a criminal in my eyes alone. So people are religious to stay happy and avoid the responsabilities of maturity.(walk through a public high school today, the die hard christians are damn near always the ones acting like first graders, and continue acting like that the rest of there lives, beleving that only faith matters, and never learning self dicipline.)

[This message has been edited by Duck (edited 06-04-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Duck:

heh. A puddle will fit perfectily in a depression in the ground. does that mean the earth was created to perfectily accomidate the puddle? or does it mean that the puddle changed its shape to accomidate a depression in the ground?

By the way, thanks for the compliment, Dark_Magneto.



Edit: to answer the starter of this thread, I give you my philosophy: Ignorance is bliss, Ignorance is the only crime. And in america, you have the right to pursue happiness(at least in the decleration of independence), so you can have any damn stupid idea you want, based on no facts at all, and be a criminal in my eyes alone. So people are religious to stay happy and avoid the responsabilities of maturity.(walk through a public high school today, the die hard christians are damn near always the ones acting like first graders, and continue acting like that the rest of there lives, beleving that only faith matters, and never learning self dicipline.)

[This message has been edited by Duck (edited 06-04-2004).]

It'd be interesting to see what these "die-hard" christians would be like in a country that wasn't so friendly towards them. Would they even be christians?

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

I think it's far more likely that there were crazy people around 2000 years ago than that there were gods in human form around 2000 years ago.

I think we can say without fear of being far off the mark that statistically, there have always been more crazy people around than gods in human form.

That shouldn't be a surprise, I should say, but neither does it imply that gods in human form, or God incarnated in a human form, has never existed or couldn't exist.



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 06-04-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Duck:

So people are religious to stay happy and avoid the responsabilities of maturity.(walk through a public high school today, the die hard christians are damn near always the ones acting like first graders, and continue acting like that the rest of there lives, beleving that only faith matters, and never learning self dicipline.)

Even christians are partly a product of their environment, apart from undergoing the influence of their faith. The kind of christians you are describing seems to me a breed which is not necessarily the typical christian.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

It'd be interesting to see what these "die-hard" christians would be like in a country that wasn't so friendly towards them. Would they even be christians?

One of the possible answers to this question you will find when searching for "Darfur" with google or Teoma. Admittedly, the christians in that region may not be the same kind as those you are talking about, I don't know. Depends on what you mean with "die-hard".

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

That shouldn't be a surprise, I should say, but neither does it imply that gods in human form, or God incarnated in a human form, has never existed or couldn't exist.

Of course not.

But is there any reason to believe that they have?

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Yeah, a madman can speak truth, but rarely are they put on the level of being one of our greatest moral teachers (from a secular humanist P of V).

I don't understand why so many people claim that he was a "great moral teacher". I can't find anything in the Bible attributed to Jesus that is particularly profound, and there are quite a few things that are just silly.

JUST LIVE LIFE THERE IS NO "GOD" PERSAY JUST ATOMS CHEMICAL REACTIONS AND SHIT LIKE THAT JESUS GODDAMN MOTHER FUCKING CHRIST GIVE IT A REST WE'RE HERE THATS IT GET OVER IT ! ! !

the question of sanity and morality are always interesting and inconclusive

to claim you are god i would say you are probably insane. however some of the more modern religions i feel have no insanity at all, only pure unadulterated greed like scientology.

there once was a kingdom with a wise and good ruler, but only one well. one night a evil man poisoned the well and everyone except the king drank from it. they all went insane, but they thought that the king was insane. the next day the king drank of the well and went insane. the people rejoiced because thier king had regained his sanity.

i dont know where i heard this story but i thought it applied. you are only insane when you are the minority.

as for jesus being a great moral teacher he invented the set of morals which are mostly around today. if hitler had won we probably would have a slightly different set of morals and considered him a great moral leader. blame constantine for spreading cristianity across the roman empire.

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

if hitler had won we probably would have a slightly different set of morals and considered him a great moral leader.

Not to mention how the face of marketing would have drastically changed:

<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~darkmagneto/milk.jpg">http://home.earthlink.net/~darkmagneto/milk.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://home.earthlink.net/~darkmagneto/milk.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 06-07-2004).]

^That's tops lol!

As AR-180 said, a weird sort of Judeo-Christian ethic has defined western laws and ethics since the merger between christianity and the state.

"It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world an ideal character, which through all the changes of eighteen centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, tempersments, and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice ; and has exercised so deep an influence that it may truely be said that the simple record of three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philosophers and all the exhortations of moralists."

- William Lecky (he's a skeptic btw)

[This message has been edited by inquisitor_11 (edited 06-07-2004).]

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot. Or he can, but does not want to. Or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil, then how come evil is in the world?"

~Epicurus

i guess that means that god is either evil, impotent or doesnt exist

im in favor of the last one

same here.

quote:Originally posted by Ouada:



"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot. Or he can, but does not want to. Or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil, then how come evil is in the world?"

~Epicurus

or how about, god is that which wants to abolish evil and does? epicurus starts with the assumption that evil has always existed or is getting stronger... maybe the truth is the opposite.

God's had at least 6000 years to abolish evil. Is he just bad at it?

Or there could be a bigger concept at work-

I think the Job narrative sheds some interesting light on it- satan presents a challenge to God (that righteous people are righteous only because God is good to them i.e. out of self-interest). God could simply destroy satan, however the challenge would still stand, and God, and his people, would not be vindicated. Does that make God impotent? I don't know.

Does an omnipotent, omniscent God choosing NOT to immeadiately remove all evil make a God unjust and uncaring? Perhaps, if God's prime concern is our comfort and contentment.

wow alot of u are talking about catholic religion and god, when u have very little information about it, try reading the bible, oh and ar when u die and go to hell IF GOD EXISTS, THATS GONNA SUK, u mgoht as well just be safe then sorry instead of being a close minded fuk. craftian wiht that statement above i can tell right away that youve never even looked upon any information about god based on the bible and catholicism

[This message has been edited by mr.theman (edited 07-04-2004).]

what is evil? are you difining evil as what is evil to chirstians.

as for a challenge by the devil. why was it a challenge for god but only a tempting for jesus and why wont god show himself anymore.

i will make you a deal god if you rain fire and birmstone on a major city lets say New York i will believe in you*

*terrorist attacks dont count hast to rain from the sky.

quote:Originally posted by princecharmant1980 i believe in GOD because he will put the one who posted this post in HELL for ever then you will find that GOD exists and it will be too late

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

how do you know the koran is telling the truth maybe the idea of god was just created by insane power hungary individuals

[QUOTE][B]i believe in GOD because he will put the one who posted this post in HELL for ever then you will find that GOD exists and it will be too late



The hell of the muslim religion (from the Koran) is called "Jahannam" which literally means "hellfire".

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

i dont see any more reason to believe in god than the invisible purple cat sitting beside me there is no proof either way thats why it is stupid for people to wast 1/7 of thier lives to believe in. not to mention always creating new sects and killing each other over very slight differences in sects



in what way do you waste 1/7 of your life? and what about the other 6/7 of your life?

do you?: play video games, go for motorcycle rides, hunt or fish for the simple pleasure. or any other of the vast amounts of things to recreate and pass the time.

this is not meant as a "cut" at you. we all see the things we like as not being a waste of time.

Aside from going to church to Praise, Worship, and keep the Sabbatical Commandment, I go also because I like to go. I brings me pleasure and peace.

As far as "killing each other over very slight differences in sects ", I think that even if there were no religions, the human race would still have just as many wars. we would just have to blame some other reason for them.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

You meant something like 'difficult to prove fallacious,' right? Well, I'd have to disagree. Not because I hate the Bible, but because of what I've learned about its history. You'd do well to read some of the articles by Frank R. Zindler.



This one is about which version of the Bible is the right one. If you're saying that the Bible is almost impossible to prove wrong, you have to tell us which one.

http://www.atheists.org/church/didjesusexist.html

Go Inform Yourself.

I only checked out one of these sites and only checked out the first example of that site....

THE TRUTHFUL WITNESS

"If I [Jesus] bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." (John 5:31)

"I [Jesus] am one that bear witness of myself..." (John 8:18)

According to these scriptures, Jesus was a false witness.

Back then, they would accept testimony as long as there were at least 2 "witnesses" to testify.

Read the whole chapter but especially John 5:31-47. In verse 31 (the one the web site listed) Jesus is pointing out this fact. In our time, maybe it would have been stated

"If (only) I..."

But if you read on, He shows that there are others, which the Jews believed, that ALSO testify for Him. John (the baptist), the works that God the Father gave Jesus to do, the Father Himself, the Scriptures and the Prophets, and the one the Jews believed most of all (because he was a historical figure) Moses.

In the other chapter that the web site used as a counter-point against the Bible...

Again, read the whole chapter. But especially the whole verse ...

John 8:18 I am the one that bear witness of myself, AND THE FATHER THAT SENT ME BEARETH WITNESS OF ME.

My point of all this is that when people say that the bible is contradicting itself, they are usually doing so without looking at a bigger picture, either on purpose or not.

Sometimes, "contradictions" come from the difference of modern word use compared to what particular words and phrases meant when the bible was writen or translated.

example: "fear God" didnt nessesarily mean being afraid of God but rather having deep respect, awe and love; for and of God.

quote:Originally posted by Ouada:



"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot. Or he can, but does not want to. Or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil, then how come evil is in the world?"

~Epicurus

Our claiming His wickedness is assuming that

(a)we know His motives

(b)we know when this should have happened

the Bible states why there is evil in the world and why it hasnt been removed yet

Coz I don't understand him. As soon as I understand him I'll stop believing.

i finally figured it out why god hasnt abolished evil by watching south park bigger longer and uncut

without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes. (or at least thats what the devil says)

I do not believe in anything which does not have an effect on my life.

quote:Originally posted by Kw0nLiE:

I do not believe in anything which does not have an effect on my life.

Haha. That's funny.

quote:Originally posted by AR-180:

since there is no evidence of gods existense why do you believe in god

is it because you need to be more comfortable with death or can you not stand the idea that we can govern ourselves or are you all just brainwashed idiots

i personaly believe most of you are the third one

Why are you a closed-minded ignorant bitch?

quote:Originally posted by Kw0nLiE:

I do not believe in anything which does not have an effect on my life.

God is the person who decides whether or not there is ice on the patch of road where you decide to break. God is the person who decides if the drink is gonna come out the vending machine or if it's gonna rip you off. God is the person who decides if you tread in some shit on your way to school. God is the person who decides if you're gonna lose ten quid at the fairground.

But God wont do these things as long as you aren't arrogant.

If you are lacking in self esteem, God will be the person who helps you find 10 quid at the fair ground. He will be the person who helps you make a tasty cup of tea in the morning, etc

You get the picture?

we all believe in a god cus there is evidence in each religion...science cant even explain how we started...al they can say is big bang theory..so there must be a god.