Can some one please explain to me why some references to satan/devil are ones that say he encourages people to do evil or does evil himself and some references say he punishes people who do evil?

The TV shows and movies that portray Satan as the lord of Hell in my opinion are completely false. In Revelation, Satan gets the worst punishment of all. In fact, it's possible that Hell the lake of fire is reserved just for Satan's torment and non believers just sort of die. I don't know that's speculation, however God would never give Satan any type of dominion of his creation.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

The TV shows and movies that portray Satan as the lord of Hell in my opinion are completely false. In Revelation, Satan gets the worst punishment of all. In fact, it's possible that Hell the lake of fire is reserved just for Satan's torment and non believers just sort of die. I don't know that's speculation, however God would never give Satan any type of dominion of his creation.



Don't you find it a bit ridiculous that Satan is accussed of doing so much evil, yet he is not stopped? Don't you think it's kinda ridiculous that God is said to not like evil yet He chooses not to rid the universe of Satan?

Don't you think it makes no sense that God 'will' eventually punish Satan, yet free him after a few centuries of being locked in hell?

I believe that those who say Satan is evil, aren't really thinking things through, or either they're just really stupid. Evil is a point of view, I don't understand why these mentally capable beings (you-plural) ignore this fact.

Evil is not a true force, nor is it an actual thing that could influence a soul to do this or that. Take the faggot bastards in Iraq for instance(those who slayed Nick Berg). They aren't evil; from our American Point of Veiw, they are. But they truly, honestly believe they are doing something great, they believe they have an accepted cause.

Accepted by, Allah/God. They are just stupid, now if evil means stupid, then my argument would be invalid. But to answer you, d00d, no Satan is not evil. He cannot be claimed to be evil as a definate thing, if he was truly so much of a disturbance to God's plan/will/wants he'd be long gone.(If indeed God and His angels are real)

If they are, I believe God loves him. For various reasons, but this one might awaken some brains cells in a few. Don't you find it questionable that Satan is said to wage a war against God in the future, and have done many disturding things before then...

God not only lets Satan get away with everything he's supposedly done, but He even at one time told Satan to do something that could be considered an evil act...

He'll also, after Satan will supposedly wage this war, set Satan free after a while... He'll also apparently never destroy him, don't you think if he wasn't loved by God, he's just be destroyed? What force other than love would make one decide not to rid themselves of someone who've caused them so much distress?

None that I know of, I think God loves Satan, and the idea that someone could actually be evil, is ridiculous. I think it's obvious that He loves him because He chose to make Satan a Prince at one time(which still stands), which one would not do unless they loved someone. At least one in His position.



[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 05-25-2004).]

Satan is the best friend of the church, for he has kept it in business for all these years.

"I was to be thy Adam, but I am your fallen angel." - Mary Shelley: Frankenstein. (derived from Milton, Paradise Lost)

"Do you believe in a suprem being dedicated to the destrution of man?"

"I honestly don't think man needs help."

does any one know about Adam's first "real wife", Lilith?

All I know is that the texts concerning Lilith aren't recognized by organized Christianity. No idea what the reason is, but I'd be interested in finding out.

lilith was created from the same dust as adam according to the medieval work "the alphabet of bin sirah". she was angered at the dominant personality of adam. she was in a sense a femminist. she fled the garden, and god ordered her to return to adam. when she refused she was damned to howl and screach, taking her revenge on babies and keeping a strong hatred of men.

I am not sure, but I believe the reason is that femminism is an unchristian idea and is evil. they did not want to show it or give the idea of it. even if you do think femminism is a good christian idea, the people of the middle ages did not, and hid the idea with stories of women turning into lilith or a masculine sort of amazon freak.

I'd say the main reason it's not well known or cannonized (alongside the patricarchal reasons already given) was the fact that it was written in the middle-ages. It would be like making "The Last Temptation of the Christ" scripture...maybe.

Thanks for the bit of knowledge guys.

Evil is a subjective concept that perpetual fluncuates not the ethreal dictates which some

believe.

And now to be offtopic http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Does anyone know what Lenoire(sp) is a reference to in Poes poem?

quote:Originally posted by inquingconsciouss:

Evil is a subjective concept that perpetual fluncuates not the ethreal dictates which some

believe.

Thatnk hell that someon agress, that is all I was trying to say. Though ya didn't do it for me, thanx a million Inquis.

quote:And now to be offtopic http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Does anyone know what Lenoire(sp) is a reference to in Poes poem?

I don't know, so don't grill me for this guess: I think Lenoire was a 'Fallen Angel', but I'm not sure how that corresponds to Poe.

Or wa it just someone he was in love with, and he lost them to some tragedy?

OMFG! I think she was one of the women who caused the angels to fall! That's what it was, she wasn't an angel, but she caused/took part in the Fall of them.

(I type things as they come to me, so disregard the way I write what I write.)

Lenore in Poe's poems is just refering to his wife. That was from The Raven I believe. He calls her Annabelle Lee in the poem of that name. Both poems were written about his torment because of the loss of his wife.

quote:Originally posted by TheJackal:

Lenore in Poe's poems is just refering to his wife. That was from The Raven I believe. He calls her Annabelle Lee in the poem of that name. Both poems were written about his torment because of the loss of his wife.

So my first instinct was right? He was speaking of someone he was greiving for? What had made me think that was the fact that he said, "...sorrow for the LOST Lenore..." and, "Nameless here for evermore."

That's what usually happens when someone dies, for a while their name is not spoken because it brings pain to their mourners. I was wrong about the fallen angel thing, the womans name was, Naamah. Which is a wholly far stretch from Lenoire.

satan is the only god for us all

Satan was just one of God's angels in the Hebrew scripture, he tested mankind and served as the prosecutor of the Court of Heaven. You could call him the source of evil, but then you'd be implying that God recognized an inherent merit in a certain amount of evil in the world, and hence created Satan.

Satan is the prosecutor, and just tests people by giving them bad ideas and seeing they will follow thru with evil, I'm sure he's a nice guy with a crummy job, who knows.

I remember something about how satan was trying to rebell against god because he didnt want to worship his new creation (us) along with a few other angels and god was all like oh hell no and sent him to hell or something like that. I'd have to say hes bad but really does it matter? If we die we die. If we go to hell then we go to hell who knows enjoy yourself while you can.

i think the bible is full of shit but in many other books all satan does in example in the garden he "gave them knowledge and made them like gods" but jehova was keeping them ignorant and satan gave them knowledge, yet jehova floods, smites, and has all these sensless contradictory rules, i dont know about you but i'd rather be wise than a complete moron serving that false god jehova

quote:Originally posted by WristSlitter:

Satan is the best friend of the church, for he has kept it in business for all these years.

True, true.

quote:Originally posted by the d00d over there:

Can some one please explain to me why some references to satan/devil are ones that say he encourages people to do evil or does evil himself and some references say he punishes people who do evil?

short answer..

evil because he was the "highest ranking" angel and he was jelous of the creation of man, who at that time was created a little higher than the angels

the other side of the coin is that he has a "job" which is the tempter

this is the very shortest answer i can give, there is more to it but itll suffice

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

The TV shows and movies that portray Satan as the lord of Hell in my opinion are completely false. In Revelation, Satan gets the worst punishment of all. In fact, it's possible that Hell the lake of fire is reserved just for Satan's torment and non believers just sort of die.

I don't know that's speculation, however God would never give Satan any type of dominion of his creation.

satan does have SOME dominion over God's creation, but it is temperary.

Coincider the tempations of Christ: satan told Jesus that he would give Him all that He could see, and Jesus didnt tell him that it wasnt his to give, but responded that we are to worship God and only God.

As far as hell goes, Jesus says that there are only two outcomes.. Heaven or hell and the only way to the Father is through Him (Jesus) So i dont think that the unbelievers will JUST die

quote:Originally posted by AI:

"Do you believe in a suprem being dedicated to the destrution of man?"

"I honestly don't think man needs help."

The devil is NOT a supreme being! He is a created being. You are right, however, man really doesnt need help. But satan's driving force, is that he is angry at God and jelous of man

quote:Originally posted by Snoil-nine:

does any one know about Adam's first "real wife", Lilith?

I believe i read somewhere that Lilith is an invention from the middle ages by people who saw things in the Bible and felt they had to fill in the blanks.. i'm not 100% sure on this as i cant find it in my reference materials right now but try doing a web search and check a few hits

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:



Don't you find it a bit ridiculous that Satan is accussed of doing so much evil, yet he is not stopped? Don't you think it's kinda ridiculous that God is said to not like evil yet He chooses not to rid the universe of Satan?

That is similar to a question i have asked myself..."Why didnt God send the Savior right after the first sin?"

I'm not sure if the answer i came up with is even close to any religion's doctrine or even if it agrees with God ('s plan). IMO sin is sort of like a contagieous and genetic disease. And it affects not only people but the world. Also, i think that there is a finite number of souls; much like the hebrew legend of the guf that was mentioned in the movie 'the seventh seal'.

my theory is that if God had sent the Messiah right after the 1st sin, not enough of creation would realize the need for a Savior, so no one would choose to be saved, since the 'genetic' part of the disease would still be in all the progeny.

Logically, an Omnipotent God would have known, before He created anything, that Lucifer would cause a rebellion and infect other parts of the creation. This would lead to the conclusion that free-will was given to angels as well.

Perhaps the answer to why He hasnt gotten rid of satan is that, as a created being, the Creator does love him and maybe there might be a way for satan to be redeemed also.

This is very far from scripture, and ONLY my oppinion, but does anyone know God's mind or total plan?

quote:

I believe that those who say Satan is evil, aren't really thinking things through, or either they're just really stupid. Evil is a point of view, I don't understand why these mentally capable beings (you-plural) ignore this fact.



If there is no God, then good and evil are a point of view. If it is only a point of view, then there really is no point of or to anything, no reason for existence.

Logically, an Omnipotent God would have known, before He created anything, that Lucifer would cause a rebellion ...

Perhaps the answer to why He hasnt gotten rid of satan is that, as a created being, the Creator does love him ...does anyone know God's mind or total plan?

OMGF! I've been aching for a response from some1 like you. I totally agree with the idea that God loves Satan, I believe that the reason he hasn't been destroyed is that he has a purpose just as everyone else does. And yes, he too is looking for redemption and he has a chance at it.

But my thing is, the issue of evil. The thing he did that he needs redeeming from could be a number of things, but Enoch told what that thing was.I believe evil is a POV, ands from God's POV it would be evil to interfere with His plan (Oh, and Enoch does say that God does indeed have a plan, but that's unknown). The thing that is supposedly so evil, was ignoring his duties and having sex with multiple women.

I think Satan's considered evil because he deliberately disobeyed God's commands on several occassions. He had sex with not 1, 20r 3, but 4 women(I think, either that or just 3). He did this multiple times, unlike the other fallen ones.

As you might be able to tell fro the bible, Satan and God have a sort of -Marius and Armand- relationship. In that, Armand questions every little single thing Marius does, even when he knows it's right. No matter what the thing is he always bombard him with questions, so much so that it angers Marius and sometimes makes him violent.

Satan sort of questions God's motives too often, for example Job. He's basically telling God like, 'look these people don't really like nor admire you, they only praise you so that you'll bless them, or because you've blessed them with wealth'. And then, God's all, 'Uh uh, go beat his ass, and allow his family to be tortured, raped and whatnot, he'll still like me, 'watch'.

Then Satan's like, 'Yeah, right. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)'. Then it turns out God was right. But at the same time, so was/is Satan. As he told God, '...so that you'll give them wealth'. And eventually what did God do? I think of Satan as Gods' adversary, yes, but evil, no.

quote:If there is no God, then good and evil are a point of view. If it is only a point of view, then there really is no point of or to anything, no reason for existence.

I disagree.Whether there's a God/god or not, evil is by definition(s) a POV. As Metallica said, 'One mans fun is another's hell!' There needn't be a god to have g-e, they're just POV's, they require only a being with a POV.

I totally disagree with the whole 'existance' thing. I believe very strictly that there is a distinct purpose for our being here. But the thing is, I'm not a theist(of any sort), so I won't make the statement that my belief is in anyway the truth.

I'm sort of on the fence when it comes to religion, not willing to dismiss it completely but not willing to follow. Sort of agnos. Why you believe that if g-e are only POV's then there's no meaning for existnace, is unknown to me and shocking.

Becasue even the 'Prince' himself knows that he's no match for God, and he's also obviously intelligent. He must be God's fav or something, because he knows exactly what he's allowed to get away with, and what he's not.

If there were g-e as forces, then there would be no point in existance, because both sides would be fighting a loosing battle. In the end there can only be one dominating force, that force which He wields.

Both good and evil came from He, and both are in His power, therefore only a combo of the two would be honestly on His side. Those who'll fight for 'evil' will be against Him, He's not evil. Those fighting for 'good' will be against Him, He's not good. Both.

Wow Metalligod, that's probably the first post you've ever written that I agree with you on.