Ok, reading those free will posts made me think of this. In monotheistic religions where god is omnipotent, this omnipotence would grant him the power of looking into the future. If it were possible for anyone or anything to look into the future, it would mean that what we will do has already been decided. If that is true, then it means that before we were created, he must have been able to tell who among us would choose to believe and who wouldnt. Even if he didn't use this power to look into the future, it would mean that our paths in life had already been decided.

If all of this makes sense to you, think about this. If our paths in life have been decided, it means that before we are created, it's possible to know if we will go to heaven or hell. This being so, it means that when people say that we were created because god wanted to see if we would believe or not, they are spewing bullshit.

I'm not saying any of this proves there's no god. That can't be proven. This all just made me think of what a prick he must be to create beings who will be condemned to hell even before they are born.

Whoes to say that you didn't chose your entire life before you were even born? You can't even really prove that everyone else around you even exists. Maybe you chose your expirences which would mean you controled everyone around you? I don't think its true its just a possiblilty. Of course then maybe its possible for you not to make mistakes and know everything...

Maybe just every option has already foretold? Not really that you don't have an option just when you choose that option it has already been told of where that will lead, to different options. Almost like a tree. You can chose which branch you want to walk on, yet the branch you chose has every possible option for you already laid out.

The problem is with god is who do you believe? Every one has an opinion of god, yet have no idea if its true or not. Is god really going to judge you? When one could argue all day of what is actually wrong and right? We don't know, if it is following societys view thats right then Hitler did a good thing. Or is he still wrong and your societys right? Is it following the ten commandments when all of them could be summed up in respect. Every action has a reaction, so would people be mean to others if someone was never mean to them? How could you do what you don't know what or how to do it?

What is freedom?

Well... I don't think God knows the outcome of our lives. In my opinion when the Bible talks about people being "Made in God's image", I always think it implies that we are imbued with divine essence so that we can make choices independent of God. Cause, as you said, if it's predetermined then why bother sending souls to Earth, he may as well just automatically assign the soul to heaven/hell/purgatory, based on its predestined path.

So yeah, divine essence allowing us the ability to choose. Now I find "Choice", to be one of the most important factors here, without choice I don't believe we can prescribe moral judgement to any action.

I'll give an example using the theory in Mark Twain's "Method of Man", where he cites that in a purely objective reality all our actions are predetermined based upon our genetics, external stimulus, and past experience.

He believes that you can trace every action to genetics and past experience working together to produce a future action. Now if this is the case, then someone is not consciously choosing to do good or bad, they're being forced to do the only action "they", are capable of, based solely upon external stimuli.

Effectively we're all brainwashed to follow a course of action that we can never steer... so how can we be moral? Morality is eschewing one choice in favour of another... if no choice is present then the individual is as moral as a brainwashed cultist.

In light of this above theory, I think God, has to allow (assuming He exists), free will... otherwise the notion of judgement makes no sense... and our existence on this planet seems rather pointless...

(I'm saving this thread, which I found on the fourth page. I've got a little something to add.)

It makes a lot of sense if you think of it like this. I smack my friend in the face. Why? Because I think it's funny. Why? Because I was exposed at a young age to movies that portrayed it as hilarious. Why were they made? To distract people form economic and social problems. Why were those around? Because the world was embroiled in war and recovering from others.

From my friends end, you can do the same type of chart, stretching backwards. Now, obviously, if that path works backwards, it must work forwards. With that, you could also predict how each future action or reaction will be based on past experiences of the parties involved. It's not so much that our fates were predetermined as that we are a predictable world. A god wouldn't decide our options for us, but rather see what we would choose. We are given the options, we choose freely amongst them, but we will always choose some option over another in any given situation. It's human nature.

quote:Originally posted by flipskate1323:

If that is true, then it means that before we were created, he must have been able to tell who among us would choose to believe and who wouldnt. Even if he didn't use this power to look into the future, it would mean that our paths in life had already been decided.

By that very same token, if "God" controls the making of every child, and the introduction of homosexuality, mental retardation, etc. to the child's life were by his design, then hes a sick bastard, making his children to suffer <disabilities> or be damned to hell for following their (perfectly normal) desires <homosexuality>.

When I think of "God" making people, just so they can be comdemned and abused, it makes me think he is a six year-old with a magnifying glass, burning the hell out of ants.

Maybe the clergy know something we don't, if "God" really is a 6 year-old with a magnifying glass, and he really is burning us to death, then maybe thats there the burning hells came from......think about that.

quote:Originally posted by AI:

Whoes to say that you didn't chose your entire life before you were even born? You can't even really prove that everyone else around you even exists. Maybe you chose your expirences which would mean you controled everyone around you? I don't think its true its just a possiblilty. Of course then maybe its possible for you not to make mistakes and know everything...



It reminds me of the matrix 2 quote.

"You've already made the choices, you are only here to understand why you made the choices."

That line was quite profound for me.

quote:If it were possible for anyone or anything to look into the future, it would mean that what we will do has already been decided.

Here's my few points:

1) People are predictable - if I bother to try, I can tell what people will do in a given situation

2) The future is predictable - given the fact that people are predictable, if we know enough relevant facts, the future is quite simple

Now, given the fact that people are predictable, and the future is predictable, by me (who is not omniscient or omnipotent), does my knowledge inhibit other's freewill? Not in the slightest - I know what they'll do, because I know the way they work, and what they'll choose.

quote:Originally posted by VampireSlaya:

Here's my few points:

1) People are predictable - if I bother to try, I can tell what people will do in a given situation

2) The future is predictable - given the fact that people are predictable, if we know enough relevant facts, the future is quite simple

Now, given the fact that people are predictable, and the future is predictable, by me (who is not omniscient or omnipotent), does my knowledge inhibit other's freewill? Not in the slightest - I know what they'll do, because I know the way they work, and what they'll choose.

I'm glad someone finally agrees with me here. Although, I doubt I had the idea before you did, so it's more likely to be the other way around. Still comforting, though.

Oh, hey... yeah. Didn't notice someone else on the same track. I've only had the idea since last year really... so meh. Anywho - if you know enough relevant details, and keep your eyes and ears peeled, you can figure out what people are thinking - much fun.