I recently had a drunken conversation with a friend of mine, well actually he was sober I was VERY inebriated so I guess it averages out to a drunken conversation. Anyway, my friend is an atheist jew and he introduces some concepts of the Judaic philosophy I had never heard. I guess I always (mistakenly) assumed that since I had a christian background that I had a firm grasp of the Jewish faith as well. Kind of forgetting that most christians have lost their way in dogma and no longer have a firm grasp on christian beliefs let alone the Judaic mysticism that is the backbone of it. Some of the things he was saying though reminded me of a few revelations I had without outside help but since realizing them have faded in my mind to my disdain.

Things such as existential paradox, "god" being more of a metaphor then a bearded lightning bolt tosser. The ever present nothingness, the being and the nothingness. The ultimate contradiction being the entire point. Liberation from logocentrism and bilateral thinking. He said the best way he could describe it is the Universe is a hologram and God is that hologram and that which has never yet existed. He broke it down into the definition of YHVH (the unpronouncable name of God in the bible) to be actually undefinition. Beautifully infinite, just wrap your mind around that thought for a second. Try to really grasp the definition of undefinition.

I raise these points because the discussions on this board have grown stale and have left far too many colors off of the canvas of conciousness. This theory makes atheism moot. I say behold your God is the Godless, our pitiful languages have left us with a name to describe the contemplation of meaningless infinte in the face of death. Can anything be summed up in mere words and still truly pocess what makes it great? Words inspire feelings, but the words themselves are all but useless to even touch the surface of everything important. Why would you expect talk of God to be any different?

Harrrraaahhhh!!

I_Like_Traffic_Lights -You can be my new God.



Below is an ok piece, but not as detailed or discriptive as I'd like, also the tinge of Eastern influence is prevelent. Though the similarities in Qabbalah and Yogic philosophies easily lead to that.

Of course this is only a view too, and not even realy a 10th. of that view I guess.

It's comes thanks to the folks at Work of the Chariot.

quote:

YHVH- the "Perfect Name from NOT"

The single most important Name of Small Face in the Hebrew religion is YHVH (see Ezra Name and see Sinatic Name). It is with this Name that most mystical qabalistic meditation and magical rituals are performed. The four letters Yod Heh Vav Heh correspond respectively to the four qabalistic Worlds of Atziluth (World of Emanation), B'riyah (World of Creation), Yetzirah (World of Formation), and Asiyah (Activity or Making). The relationship between Vast and Small Face is perfectly displayed in the Name YHVH. The Name YHVH portrays the active (sexual) tantric union between masculine (yang) and feminine (yin) aspects of Vast and Small Face in the Upper and Lower Worlds. The Yod and Upper Heh are the respective masculine and feminine (or yang and yin) aspects in the Upper Worlds. The Yod, which emanates in Sefirah Crown/Above, is essentially a witness state the size of the whole universe. The World of Atziluth is thereby rooted in Sefirah Crown/Above. The Upper Heh, which emanates in Sefirah Wisdom/East, is the latent condition of all Mayic (illusory) possibilities. The World of B'riyah is rooted in the supernal Sefirah Wisdom/East. In Chapter Two of the Sifra Detzniyutha (Book of THAT Which is Concealed), the Heh is equated with the nostrils of Vast Face, through which the cosmic breath "rushes forth."

"The breath of the hollow pillar (nose) of the Ancient One unto Small Face.

Without the breath, It exists as NOT (Lo).

In Heh, It is manifested [i.e. B'riyah].

The Heh above, the Heh below.

As it is written, "AHH Adonai Elohim."

And in Chapter Three of the Sifra Detzniyutha, we find:

"In the cohesion of the attached, in the breath of the weights [Sefiroth] is Yod Heh Vav.

The superior Yod is adorned with the wreath of the Ancient One [i.e. the Ayin of Vast Face], the supernal envelope that is clear and concealing.

The superior Heh is adorned with the breath that comes forth in order to animate from the openings of the hollow pillar [i.e. the nose].

The superior Vav, the lamp of heavy darkness, which is adorned by its sides;

The letters then extend and are included in Small Face [i.e in the lower seven Sefiroth].

Just as they dwelled in the skull [i.e. Atziluth],

They are found to be extending into the whole body in order to establish all."

The Vav and Lower Heh represent the action of the consciousness of Small Face in the Lower Worlds. The Vav emanates from the feminine Sefirah Understanding/North and is masculine (yang) in the lower planes. The World of Yetzirah is rooted in this supernal Sefirah. The Lower Heh emanates from Sefirah Knowledge/First in the World of B'riyah and is feminine (yin) in Asiyah (World of Activity or Making) as the Sefirah Kingdom. In Qabalah, the feminine aspect of the Spirit of Small Face in the lower worlds is called Shekhinah (lit. abiding, community). In the first chapter of the Sifra Detzniyutha is found:

"Just as the Heh is found to be the Shekhinah."

Shekhinah has many Names in the Torah, such as Bride (Kalah), Queen (Malkhah), She (Hya, pronounced "hee"), and Glory or Honor (Kavod). It is through the interaction of the Vav and the Lower Heh that messianic appearances are manifested in the Lower Worlds. The action of the Spirit of Messiah in the World of Yetzirah resonates through the Vav. The Lower Heh is the presence of the Spirit of the Lord YHVH as the Shekhinah throughout the material Creation, or "Earth" (Aretz). Actually, the Lord YHVH is referred to in the feminine about 10-15 percent of the time in the Torah, though often mistranslated or ignored. It is important to note that, despite the medieval injunctions of the rabbinate, the ancient Qabalah is not sexist. The Mystical Qabalah establishes the unity and equality of the male and female aspects of the Lord YHVH ("Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother"), and offers "equal opportunity" to become "Masters of the Name" and great servants of our Lord.

Among books on the subject of the Qabalah, there is some confusion regarding how the letters Yod, Heh, and Vav are respectively ascribed to the supernal Sefiroth. Many authors ascribe only the upper tip of the Yod to the Sefirah Crown/Above and the rest of the letter with Sefirah Wisdom/East. The Upper Heh is thereby associated with Sefirah Understanding/North and the Vav with the Sefirah Knowledge/First. This confusion may stem from the fact that most writers are not familiar with the Tree of Perfection, and may not clearly comprehend the nature of the relationship between Sefirah Kingdom and Sefirah Knowledge/First. The confusion may also arise from the fact that the Tree spans the four worlds (see Diagram), and at the same time, each Sefirah is a complete Tree (see Diagram). However, the Sefer HaShmoth and the Sifra Detzniyutha in the verses cited above clearly ascribe the Yod entirely to Sefirah Crown/Above, the Upper Heh with Sefirah Wisdom/East, and the Vav with Sefirah Understanding/North. The Lower Heh and the World of Asiyah are associated with the seven lower Sefiroth beginning with Sefirah Knowledge/First.

It may help to visualize the Ezra letter Yod as an eddy spinning around a still centerpoint. This still centerpoint is the infinitesimally small point (smaller than the Planck Constant of 10-34cm) in Sefirah Crown/Above, where the Light of the Endless enters the Tzimtzum (Contraction) and descends as the Central Column of the Tree. If you could magnify this point and make it visible, you would see that it is not in fact a point, but rather a circle i.e. the "wreath of the Ancient One which adorns the superior Yod." This is where the Yod is rooted in and emanates from the negatively existent roots. The two end points of the Yod are respectively the supernal Sefiroth Wisdom/East and Understanding/North, the uppermost sources for the two side columns of the Tree.

I may be misunderstanding you as interpretations (or misinterpretations) can be numerous and varied when dealing with metaphors. Especially ones involving many a word in a language not my own. But it appears to me this school of thought runs very near that of Carl Jung. Although he wasn't referring to God but more the mind and what he called the colective conciousness (which is the same as God if I understand you correctly. I suggest you look into him and his ideas if you haven't already.

The eyes grow weary, however, reading passages from text. I'd like to hear your own thoughts on the subject. How strangely similar Nirvana and YHVH are, the balance of extreme opposites in one, and ever present void (if a void had pressence to feel)

My beliefs centre around one very important experience in my life.

I don't know how real it was, or how much of it was a psychological illusion, but it was this;

I was at my wits end, I asked pretty much the classic "WHY?" and I was overcome by a feeling that was also delivered a message I guess....and I know how crap that/this sounds aswell, just to note....The feeling was extremily blissful, the kind of drug you wish you could take, everything was perfect, God was the protrayer of every action, like I tell myself to move my hand, God tells me to do that, and every other thing in the world. Like a deja've, your kind of removed, but so happy you want to jump around etc. but you still can't express how great you feel, everything you do is in perfect harmony with everything else like an exquisitly crafted dance, from the largest right down to the smallest detail.

This only lasted for a short period, but it's still with me. And whenever I remember it, if it's not completely patronising, I laugh.

Some people it seems like to think of religion as sorid prayer and guilt or flighty happiness that plasters a worse than plastic smile or something, and doesn't allow you to see falws because your worl will fall with them.

But it's realy realy not. I can be as ballsie and you can embrace it as completely as everything in life, tear it apart if you want....it will probably be all the better for you in the long run.

It's not at all about reading scripture, or listen to prophets...it just life, religion and life are sunominuos, religion is the act of living, life is sacred.

It was this life that I felt, as the Logos, or Prana or Qi.

As you go deeper into this, the greater you live, the deeper you will go...there is no two ways about it, and probably no morality at all to do with it apart from living your fullest potential.

To continue...as you go deeper, you will feel this blissful, loving feeling that I experienced in greater and greater depth. It will become so strong at times that it is completely debiliating and you will pass from conciousness. This is knowns as Samadhi or Nirvana, I cannot profess to know what happens, if anything at all.

I did once as a person who has had this experience, and he simply said, and I mean very simply, "There is nothing to tell" When I hugged him it felt like there was nobody there, I'm not sure if that is important, when he stared at me I could feel 'electricity' moving around and bubbling inside of me. He knew simple things about me, but his nature was soemthing like I have never know before, like a person with almost nothing about him. Jesus! Full but Empty....can you see Monkey Magic comming through? lol

I might be just making all of it up! I beleive it, but it's just what I saw.

I'm yet to be shown that this is physical or supernatural, these states of consciouness.

I do know that the very little I have experienced has been experienced by man for many, many centuries.

There have been exercises devoloped to bring on these experiences, and other things realted to them. Like Yoga, Qigong, the Swirl of the Sufis(I don't know the name) in many instaces those that practice such things have been able to know and see things about the human body that science seems to be starting to only now accknowledge, but this is also a very grey area, and I'm often not sure who or what opinion to trust.

Again I can say of one personal experience I had. It was when I saw my Third Eye, it was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen in my life. Truthfuly. I had no idea of what the thrid eye classical looked like at that time...I knew of it's existant but not much more. When I saw it I didn't even know what it was I had seen, it was just an amaizing thing. I only discovered what it was weeks later.

I had finished Qigong we were doing a relaxation afterwards, lying down flat. When I closed my eyes all I could see was blue, like crystal blue, then in the middle of my vission was a darker blue diamond shape, perhaps only illuminated by these whitest white rays that were shinning out from behind it, like when you block out the sun, and making every part of the other blue shimmer like crystal.

I don't have the intelligence or experience yet to answer what this was fully, but what I had seen is, roughly, what people have catarorised as being the third eye. There must be something about the state I was in that makes this vission apear, something that is similar in all humans, like some brain function that produces similar colors, similar blissful feelings and basicaly similar phenomena all round...small differences perhaps accounted for my culture, time, psychology. But I can say that this wasn't in anyway a sujestively based/purely psychologial manifestation. It would be like a whole heap of people having the same dream, spaning long periods of time. I don't know what it means, or even if it's worth anything.

But I do know if I felt like that all the time, I would need nothing else. If everybody felt like that all the time there would be no war, we'd be the eternaly high bother/sisterhood. The world would be this huge love in and we'd be happy every second we where alive.

And you can do this......this feeling is Ananda which is spoken of in Yogic teachings. You can walk around having what would be akin to the best orgasm of your live, for your whole life. Strangely enough, yogis often don't speak of this in such a way because they say there are much better things to come....

We almost got to God before.

When you pass from any normal sembalnce of conciosness, into Nirvana or Samadhi, this is the experience of God. Or so I beleive. If you think of a white sheet, covering a hole with nothing in it, nothing, nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing, goes on forever. And we where on that sheet and apart of it, it being Logos or The Word, and we could pass through it, into that nothingness, and be that nothingness ourselves, Then that is kind of what I think of this experince.

I don't know if it's possible, but that's what they say.

So in this instance, the Sheet would be YHWH.

The sheeeeit. Realy sorry, I just couldn't resist.

I kind of stoped then. I don't know if I should write more or not. I'll post this and see how I go. I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, I hope so. It's also helping and enjoyable for me at the moment, so I'll keep going anyways....

[This message has been edited by evolove (edited 06-11-2004).]

Ok, going back to the Third Eye. My basic outlook on life as a model, I guess comes from the Charkric Tree.

Both the Yogic, seven pionted one, and the classic Qabblah with 10 pionts.

This works for me as a way of looking at my own body, my mind-whatever that is, and the universe as a whole.

I'm not sure how much you know about these, and I don't know enough.

The Yogic tree usualy only deals with the central collum, or is illustrated in such away, although they do have ida and pingla, but they only use the central stations...usualy.

The Qabbalic has two side collums which are widely used, and map different path along these, ie. The Path of the Wizard, The Path of the Saint -Which is converse to the Wizard.

They are kind of zig-zaged through different states of concsiouness. They are usualy much harder, but much more fruitful in the way of powers or psychic experiences than a central collums path.

So the way this works out is like the yin and yang.

The Wizard would go say, yin - yang - yin - yang. The Saint yang - yin - yang - yin as the ascend the 'tree' A central collum traveler would try to keep them both in complete balance and let themselves naturaly lift or be lifted(it doesn't realy matter) upwards through the tree.

All ariving at the same destination regarless.

There are different paths; like the "Path of the Angels of Disruction" which is totaly yang orientated(I hope I have them right-the back one) still ending in the same place, but usualy only after the 'id' has been, or completely distroys itself. This being Black Magic, and things associated with this style, like massive and hard drug use and a combination of all such things...there was a thread in Humanities about "A Season in Hell" which was about Rimbauds 'disorganisation of the senses.'

And they're is an opposite again, being "The Path of the Angels of Elholm, which seaks to be ABSOLUTELY perfect in EVERY action, complete comando style. They're both extremily difficult. Many Rabbis I am told practice or at least try this.

My view of life, and corespondingly my path, is that of the central collumn. I Simultaneously chose it and it me, with the kind of experiences I've had, I could realy choose no other, not would I like too.

This revolves around simple exercises, say meditiations and such. Also holding the view that everything is God. As I explained before, All that occurs is Gods will, like following the Tao...row row row your boat gently down the stream.

(I just want to add something here: The song Third Eye, the line "Childrens song stuck in my head....Telling me life is but a dream....I spent so many years in question...." That song is..Row Row Row Your Boat. For anybody who might be interested, and if anybody is accutaly reading this. Who knows what drug he was talking?)

This also consist of trying to balance your right and left hemishperes of your brain. Yogis knew, somehow, that when your breath is running mostly in your right nostril, you will be operating in your left brain predominately, and vise vesra for the right. Western medicince validated that in 1984, a few thousand years afterwards. This isn't always the case, I try to be fair, but time and time again it seems that things like this are being shown as true. I say this only because there is so much we can learn about our own bodies, and espeialy keeping them healthy and in prime condition that we can do totaly by ourselves, if only we learn how to do it.

What I'm trying to get to is duality.

I see things basicaly as the yin-yang.

Not so much good and bad, as I try to embrace and balance both, keeping myself in harmony, even if that is to be inharmonius for a time, and being in harmony with that...and so on.

I have no idea's as to why things are like that. Hot Cold, Dark Light ect.

I do believe that we can trancend each, if we choose, but we don't have to.

What I do think is that these are both expressions of the Logos, a modern analogy is the scientif beleif(fact?I think so) that everything is composed of energy, to the underlying principle of everything is Logos, and when you see that, everything is one and the same, still underlying that is the viod. All this exist together, "Giving Birth to the Myrid Things" kind of like a virus halfing itself, or an living kaleidoscope.

That is kind of it I guess. There is much more, and 99% of this stuff are the world of others I've made my own. Though with all of it I have had experience I just don't pretend to know the be all and end all of those experiences.

So says I...

Sorry to post three times.

Qabbalah deals A LOT with Divine names, and letters in the Hebrew Alphabet, which they believe holds the secrets to creation if you understand them....you may have seen 'Pi' and you may know this already.

The worlds that they speak of above are like different planes, and the Sefirah are the charkra which embody the priciples of these plains in the microcosim.

YHWH is being taken as a "TREE" or representive model of creation and man respectively.

The right and left nostirls/pillars are like the yin-yang (I don't know how much it speaks of this above I'm getting tired and lazy) also the breath is the Logos, as well as the Neshama or individual spirit, breathed out by God, micro/macrocosmicly.

(He breathed into his nostirls the breath of life and he became a living soul-talking about Adam -some people say this can be transelated in the present tense).

Logos = Small Face -YHWH can be both- Vast Face = Void-Nirvana (YHWH trancends them both, like Buddha said, "Nirvana and Samsara are one.") The 'weight' of the breath is like the yin-yang balance. Creation is the Spirit of God, just as our "spirit" or divine spark whatever is like ours, then his.

NOT - is the void.

I don't know if you were realy asking for that. But I thought I'd throw it in, if anything doesn't make sense it's probaly me. Said like a true vessle.

Hope I can here back from you...if not at least someone. Guess it doesn't realy matter.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

The ever present nothingness, the being and the nothingness. The ultimate contradiction being the entire point. Liberation from logocentrism and bilateral thinking. He said the best way he could describe it is the Universe is a hologram and God is that hologram and that which has never yet existed. He broke it down into the definition of YHVH (the unpronouncable name of God in the bible) to be actually undefinition. Beautifully infinite, just wrap your mind around that thought for a second. Try to really grasp the definition of undefinition.

I like this stuff. These descriptions are pointing towards God. Words of course cannot explain God. Like I said before, people argue on totse about if God exists or not, but God is greater than existence. God cannot be put in a box called "existence" of "time" or "space". These are all just things that we are limited by, but they are all things that are also pointing us to God. If we go and examine anything more and more closely, we find that it changes into something else, or that it disappears. We think that matter or mass exists, but when we look more closely at it, it disappears. When we look for the smaller and smaller particle, what will we find when we find the smallest? The universe. If I ask you a question and you give me an answer, what happens if I ask a question about your answer? I turns out that your answer only appeared to be an answer, until looked at more closely. This process leads you to God. The way to be far away from God is to decide that you have found an answer. Our lives are a process of doing this.

"Jewish Mysticsm" is not Judaism. In fact "mysticism" amounts to basically dogma in the jewish faith.

A lot of groups have tried to "hijack" judaism in an attempt to dilute its message. Kabbalists are one such group, so are Zionists.

A lot of the "fringe" groups that are lumped in to the jewish faith are interesting to study, but keep in mind, they exist primarily to throw jews off course.

The Torah is the jewish backbone, the "mysticism" is the shit that's been added later. Much in the way that papal decrees are the shit that have been added to Christianity. Luckily, Christians have had a protest movement in an attempt to try to get back to following the bible. I am unaware of a similar movement within the Jewish faith.

I'm not a Judaism expert but i believe this post to be accurate,

theBishop

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 06-12-2004).]

I completely disagree with that.

Kabblah is not anything like the Papalcy, infact if anything it would be the oposite.

It is more like Chistianities own mystics/mystism, saints ect.

What your thinking of (I'm guessing) is Rabbinical Judasim, who yes, at the same time might practice Kabbalah. The dogma your talking about I imgine is acctualy all the rituals ect. that would emcompass the whole and every little part of the Jewish lives, constraining them like a straight-jacket. (which is the Path of the Angels of Elholm, which I meantioned before) And all the things of a similar nature, hense your identification of 'mystism' with the Papalcy. All the man made, you can do this, not that, do it this way, only at such and such a time.

This was also making the priest all the richer, and peasents all the poorer, because of fees and donations asociated with this. It was beoming extremily prevelent at the time of Christ. Perhaps this still exists to a degree today aswell.

It was obviously a big part of what Jesus was speaking out against, ie. declearing all foods "clean" and so on, getting rid of the over-baring strictness of the Sabbath.

I'm suprised today that people seem to still misunderstand what 'mystism' is, which is a horrible title anyway.

It is simply the experince of God, and meathods of prayer that allow one to have such an experience.

Usualy it's very anti-dogma.

Kabbalah has existed within Judaism for a long time. Moses was given two forms of Law, one was written down, the other was an oral law, this is Kabalah. Some say it goes back as far as Adam. However I think the Moses reference is the oldest recorded one.

It's very interesting that you seem aproach it like some Christians look at things "A dervesion of the Devil.....A path to Folly! Beware!"

I understand that they're are very few Jews who would agree with you on this, the mystic vain of they're religion I'm told is strong, although delueted much in potency over time it would seem, from my understanding and conversations with Jewish people, most have a very deep respect for people who TRULY practice Kabbalah, as opposed to hacks. Which is an important note.

Qabbalahist never tried to hijack Judaism.

Edit:Well...some have, but they were cast aside by the real Kabbalahist, these can be classed as some of the hacks.

[This message has been edited by evolove (edited 06-12-2004).]

I didn't mean to raise up a group against group mentality. In fact the person I heard the original theories brought up from wasn't a part of any group. He's an existential jew. With his own thoughts, his own views, from his own experiences and references. The whole terminology thing was actually something I was hoping to down-play or all out erradicate from this discussion. After-all language is our limitation in that words can only scratch the surface of the true meaning of these words.

There are far too many laws in far too many schools of thought, I was hoping this discussion would go the other direction towards the limitless. Not to say I don't appreciate the glimpse into evolve's Kabblah world, I always love to see the world from as many different eyes as I can, I just wasn't expecting the exchange of words to take that path. I do understand some of the things you speak of, I have felt the extreme bliss (as well as the exact opposite when you can't laugh and smile with the nothingness and it engulfs you), and I understand the living kaliedoscope. It's the practices and terminology I'm not really into, but hey that's your trip man.

I want to go past what's known, beyond the written decrees of ancestors that have gone astray, but then again I may be asking for more then I am giving. I shift my views on how the universe functions as my life progresses. They usually lean towards a duality of opposites (niether "good" nor "bad" just opposite) or a constant flux of absurd existance void of any meaning save for the meaning you give it. I really view the various religious jargon as people trying to tell the same exact story just not being able to do it exactly the same, thus misunderstanding eachother becoming aggravated that other people can't see these ultimate truths that have become so vividly obvious to themselves and start to form walls of dogma around the original picture. This story seems to be on the tip of EVERYBODY'S tongue, but there's something in the way. Some people see the thing in the way as sin, others as other people, others as desire, others as life itself.

Trouble comes up when people fail to realize how similar and vastly different everyone is simultaneously. All the things in life unite us all the ways we reflect and judge life divide us.

I really appreciate what you are saying and encourage you to expound on what you are saying. I try to hold back from being too explicit about some my similar ideas since I usually turn people off with the way I say it. But you seem to have more ability in that area. Maybe I could make some specific comments later.

seconded

Truth gets clouded in beliefs, that is my belief.

It's supposed to be ironic, a joke played on my witlessness. To be honest a vast majority of my philosophical semi-structure is based on humor. A great practical joke existance had played on me, my own mind laughing at itself as it's own immortal trickster. A puppet without a puppet master really, propping itself up with false meaning infront of the other empty puppets. Lunatics in a giant asylum stripped of vibrancy and led astray towards the greater goal of death. A million laughs holding together these strands of lives being lived with the greatest joke of all as the center of everything. Because of our false ego we'll never get to laugh at death.

As my understandings branched out, becoming more and more complex, I learned not to take life so seriously because I'd never get out of it alive anyway. I realized that nothing really mattered in the end since you can't take it with you so what you leave is all that remains. I developed deeper connections with simpler beautiful things. I lost any inhibitions I had over what others thought (which were very little anyway) since then I get the impression I am viewed as an eccentric in the nicest way or balls-to-the-walls lunatic in the most straightforward way. I don't cause harm, I am a nice person, taboos and etiquite simply are no longer concerns to me. It became a strange concept for strangers to remain strangers to me. I'd play with little kids, sing to strangers, roll down hills, and tell people walking by to have fun with their lives.

I acted in such a way because I viewed life as something that needed to be LIVED. We were all the same in that we all could be anything we wanted and do anything we wanted. We could be God, a bum, a soldier, a loved one, a revolutionary, an observer. I felt the need to wake people from their dogmatic slumbers, look around, and see the beauty that bombarded me from every direction. I didn't want to waste my life anymore for I had found the moment called "now", and the moment is nothing but carried reprucussions of the moment that preceeded it. Something as simple as giving a random stranger a flower could be the most crucial moment in life, and that's what I was going to do. The most amazing people in the world to me at that time was "Some Guy". Some Guy made it possible for me to be watching what was on tv, Some Guy bagged my dorritos so I could carry 'em around and eat 'em, Some Guy printed the books I read, and I wanted to be "Hey Honey, Some Guy I ran into on the way home made me look at life in a completely different way." or at least "Hey Honey, Some Guy did the most absurd thing and made me smile on the way home from work. It made me think I should be more spontaneious, lets go to Hawaii"

Sometime between then and now though fear has found it's way back into my life. I have once again grown pious. The drunken conversation I had had rekindled my search for deeper truths. The definition of undefinition seemed similar to a discention into irony I had one meditative night, becoming one with nothingness and therefore everything. Seeing how delicately balanced the moments of life floated on, like an intricate dance that painted all emotions onto the faces of babes and pounded on through the heart and souls of the elders. Rapture personofied into life for life's sake.

Parts in that I was seeing LSD, acctualy writen into your words, of course it's not there. I'm not sure if it's anymore than my own crossed wires.

I may have come across you talkning about the drug before, it seems likely now.

I'm very happy your meantioned THE JOKE

one of my own personal favourites

You write this stuff well, congrats.

Ah yes THE JOKE lest we forget. I'm not sure what you mean by seeing LSD in my words. The literal sense of seeing those actual letters within the words? Or words entering conciousness the way LSD would and inspiring that train of though? If it be the latter then I feel I've been complimented a million times at once, and I thank you.

A thought has occured to me at a few occasions that LSD and the like actually open up a part of your mind that lay dormant in most folk. I believe that Psyclobin acts upon the part of your brain referred to as The Third Eye (I forget the medical term for it.) I've never checked on the validity of my thought, I've just wondered from time to time about the phenomena of such a substance and how many people describe it as a "religious experience"

Connections perhaps? or an illusion? Who's to say that the older religions did not begin in a similar fashion? Wandering the desert, starving, BEGGING God for salvation from your hunger, and suddenly you spot some fungus or a root. "THANK GOD!" and dive on the sustenance. A short time later God begins to speak to you, and you're not thinking about what you ate other then that it was a gift from God.

The definition of YHVH is that it is an accronym of the Hebrew words for "He was, He is and He will be". This is a name for God to indicate that He is eternal.

No I was accutlay seeing the letters LSD, but I'd look and there'd be nothing.

Though I always get excited -similar to a trip buzz- when talking about this stuff.

When I did acid in the past....I don't anymore, I would get this sensation in-between by eyes like a fault line, the higer the dose the stronger it would be, like my head was spliting in half down the middle, right going down, left rising up...sooooo much pressure!

I still get this same feeling, though the fault line thing is nearly none existant(I think because I'm a little more balanced) when I'm concenraiting on something, or given the right frame of mind it's just there, also in my heart and crown of my head.

This pressure in the area is something to do with the activation of the chakra. So yes, it's safe to say that drugs(psychadelics at least) can do this.

Personaly I wouldn't recomend it though....many a time I've seriously had to question my own sainty, and there are many many potholes that don't exist on a more conservative path. I would only realy recomend drugs if you had somebody, a Shaman or whatever, that was experienced in such things.

They're religions we can safely say started with drugs, but I think that for most Western ones that are present today, it's unlikely. No realy great reason for it, but usualy they're would be some more predominate clues. It just doesn't seem to fit for me. Still they're have been many books about it.

Prayer/Meditiaion can do the same things so that is were I would say most religions came from, I think theres more reason to believe this.

Perhaps one good thing about drugs is the steping away from an organised path, so you have the more freer way, and personaly talored way that you seem to want.

The thing is with the raising of Kundalini and the activation of chakras the possiblity of some forms of maddness developing are large if you don't live in a manner that is conductive to this, and drugs make this much harder, not just the effects and nature in themselves, but even the social situations which suround drugs.

FUCK Sanity!

Sanity is enslavement. What has sanity done for me other then set up a value-system that guarantees misery? I say I'd rather blow out the rest of my mind then fixate my thinking on a manifestation of society that does little but perpetuate it's own meaninglessness. Sanity makes life out to be a job, 2 cars, and a house. Sanity makes life out to be something that is hardly living. If there is a God he would never forgive us for wasting such a gift on something inane and whimsical and sanity. If there is no God I would never forgive myself for getting comfortable in such decay.

The mind grows weary and refuses to travel far under such restraints. How can we find ourselves with such guidelines? How can we ever hope to find the promised land running the same circles? How could Nirvana be accomplished with thoughts resting on the rational? How can we not experience death if we still believe it exists? How can we break through if we still think there's something to break through?

THROW OFF YOUR PIOUS CHAINS!! Proclaim to the heavens "I AM IN LOVE WITH LIFE AND REFUSE TO HOLD MY LOVE AND MY THOUGHTS UNTILL AFTER LIFE IS NO MORE!!!" "BUSINESS AS USUAL WILL NEVER BE USUAL LEST IT NOT BE MY BUSINESS" "I WILL NOT SAVE MY ENERGY FOR THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW WHILE THINKING ABOUT THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY!!!"

What is the definition of insainity, being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality?

Nirvana is about seeing reality.

The very concept of Nirvana is espoused by those who live a life of complete balance, or as close to it as they can. Buddha being the most noted.

It can be reached in other ways, of course, but that is up to the practicioner.

The self-realised (or whatever you wish to call them) are in reality the only truely sane people. They may be regarded as insane by society, because of some of they're actions. Many have been, but in acctuality it is exactly the opposite. Duality?

You seem to be equaiting sainity with (suburban) normalicy, truthfuly many of these people, while not insane are not sane either.

If you think insainty means freedom, go and visit your local mental institution. Pick a nice hard-core one and tell me what you think of those people.

They're aliens who's mission it is to save earth, while in reality not being able to save themselves from a pool of they're own faeces.

To a greater or lesser degree, this is what all insainity is.

There was an Indian Saint, a huge fat guy, around three-hundred pounds, though he ate very little, he also had a fondness for walking around the city of Varanasi naked, as some Sadhus do, perhaps because of his behaviour aswell he would be often taken into custody by the British and locked up.

Sometimes he would be soon seen standing on the roof of the police station, naked as the day he was born, without ever being let out of his cell.

I'm guessing this is realy the type of 'insainity' you are talking about.

This guy also meet another regarded as a Holi man by many, the fat guy remarked....."What a great great man you are, much better than me, while I had to be rid of everyhting including my loin-cloth, you have become realised without giving up a thing." The other saint was a family man who worked every day of his life until retirement, raised a family, kept a wife and all the other normal stuff of 19th. cent. Indian gentleman.

This guy is also credited with things like being able to manifest numerous bodies, healings, forsight, ect. ect.

Many Tantric practicioners are like this.

It may seem like I'm raging on you. I'm not and I'm also very sypathetic to what your saying. Just what your saying is not sainty vs. insanity, it's a life of shit vs. one that seems a little more interesting.

I will also note, if you have little regard for your mental condition, then it will probably fuck up on you, just like anything that's ill treated, a car, your body, friends, whatever.

quote:Originally posted by evolove:

I will also note, if you have little regard for your mental condition, then it will probably fuck up on you, just like anything that's ill treated, a car, your body, friends, whatever.

Too true, and too late. Although it appears a chapter of my life is closing, perhaps it is not too late.

Or perhaps it is the end of the book.

lol

Awww, that sounded sad

Best of luck in all your travels

[This message has been edited by evolove (edited 06-19-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

Truth gets clouded in beliefs, that is my belief.

That is my belief too. In other words, there is one belief that I have, and it is about other beliefs, and it is that all the other beliefs, except for this one belief, obscure the one belief. This is the only belief I have, the only truth I have, and all the other truths that there are slaves to the one truth.

[This message has been edited by bkc (edited 06-22-2004).]