Faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

How do you attain belief in something if it is not based in reason? I do not understand how people can come to believe in something that is not logical. And yet people have tried to convince me there is a god using logic. Why use logic to convince me about something that is not logical? This does explain why posts in this forum never go anywhere. The athiest's try to use logic to reason with the thiest's, and the thiest's are not affected by logic because there belief's are not based on logic. But if your belief is not based on logic what is it based on?

[This message has been edited by Jesus (edited 06-07-2004).]

My beliefs are based on a historical event, my faith is in a historical person. History either happens or it doesn't.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." - (1 Cor 15:14)

"We, as Christians, are asked to take a very great deal on trust; the teachings, for example, and the miracles of Jesus. If we had to take all on trust, I, for one, should be sceptical. The crux of the problem of wether Jesus was, or was not, what he proclaimed himself to be, must surely depend upon the truth or otherwise of the resurrection. On that greatest point we are not merely asked to have faith. In it's favour as a living truth there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true."

- Lord Darling, former Chief Justice of England

Faith? Faith is not some airy fairy belief that you have "just because". You have faith in something or someone because they have demonstrated themselves trustworthy.

Faith calls you to go beyond reason, not against it.

I haven't had enough direct experience to "KNOW" anything, but who you gonna believe? A monk who dedicates most of his life to "the cosmic whole", they are always relaxed, in control of themselves and strive to help others, or the human beings that live in utter hypocrisy, hate one another and want nothing but money and someone to suck them off?

Jesus...

quote:How do you attain belief in something if it is not based in reason?

You attain 'belief', for things that aren't wholely based on reason. This is because known things based on reason, exist regardless of a belief that they do. The notion of belief is holding to the truth of something without reason. Hence you 'believe', it to be true.

quote:I do not understand how people can come to believe in something that is not logical. And yet people have tried to convince me there is a god using logic. Why use logic to convince me about something that is not logical?



Saying that God isn't logical, is also somewhat stupid. You can't be sure; just because our ability to test and understand the world around us is limited, doesn't mean that everything can't one day be understood as our means and technological advancements progress. Perhaps we can one day sample and scientifically analyse 'divinity'... or psychic phenomena.

Agnosticism is the best standpoint as it refuses to outright refute unexplained phenomena on the basis that such phenomena are scientifically unfeasible. Additionally, it refuses to show blind faith in the existence of an omnipotent being.

Perhaps God can one day be rationalised... or at least some supernatural or divine being, however, as it stands there are too many weird happenings in the world to blatantly disregard a possibility 'without', concrete evidence as to its non-existence. That would be illogical.

quote:Originally posted by Jesus:

Why use logic to convince me about something that is not logical?

What is illogical about god.

Also to say that God is illogical is to claim that you understand exactly what god is. Understand something before you decided whether or not it's logical.

look at prayer

if you emmerse yourself deep enough in dillusion and reinforce it with spoken words, you will develop plenty of faith...

the power of thought is a mighty force... i dont care how you obtain it... most people nurture it through religion...

religion is wrong but it creates some good things... people with commitment, determination, hope and self discipline... and gullible people for the government to control and exploit...

i can understand having faith in someone or something that has come through to you several times, but blind faith is just plain RETARDED.

The less you believe, the better off you are.

look at prayer

if you emmerse yourself deep enough in dillusion and reinforce it with spoken words, you will develop plenty of faith...

the power of thought is a mighty force... i dont care how you obtain it... most people nurture it through religion...

religion is wrong but it creates some good things... people with commitment, determination, hope and self discipline... and gullible people for the government to control and exploit...

The power of thought is nurtured through religion? I think you've got the cart before the horse, pal.

And what makes religion wrong?

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

...who you gonna believe? A monk who dedicates most of his life to "the cosmic whole", they are always relaxed, in control of themselves and strive to help others, or the human beings that live in utter hypocrisy, hate one another and want nothing but money and someone to suck them off?

Well, at least I have something in common with the human beings.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Well, at least I have something in common with the human beings.



Something you might not wanna brag about there buddy.

But hey, maybe I'm an idiot. At least you'd have something in common with me, fellow human.