Right, I want some answers about this religion.

According to Christians, Judaism as God's religion ended with the death of Christ.

The Torah points to the time of Jesus being alive, as to when he will come on to save mankind from eternal sin and imperfection by dying for us.

So.... if the messiah did not come at that time as most Jews beleive(they rejected him) then what are they now waiting for??

Is Judaism not a religion anymore, but just a way of life which they could not give up so carried on the traditions forward???

Well thats my view anyways, feel free to correct me on this.

That's because in Judaism, the messiah didn't have to come at the time of jesus. One has nothing to do with the other.

in judaism they think the messiah has yet to come. and that jesus was a false one.

or messianic jews believe jesus was a messiah but that another is also going to come.

I dont understand Jewish logic concerning there interpretation of the Bible.

The Jews beleived that the Messiah would break them free from Roman rule. The jews did try to make Jesus king at one point, obviously beliving him to be the Messiah and beleiving that installing him as King would bring an end to Roman occupation.

The prophecies at Daniel 9 verses 24-27 point to Jesus coming in the first Century CE. The Jews actually wondered if John the Baptist was the Christ.

Isaih chapter 53 told the jews that the Christ would die for there sins. Jews beleiving that Abrahams example would atone for there sins, didnt belive that Jesus needed to die for them.

When the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, the prophecy at Isaiah 53:3 says ""he was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains... he was despised and we held him as of no account"

Moses prophecied that Israel would turn away from true worship, and that total destruction would come upon them. (Deuteronomy 31).

After Jesus was executed, in 70 CE the Romans totaly destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem and practically wiped out the Jewish culture.

The destruction of the Temple=God leaving the Jews.

The temple has never been rebuilt, showing that God has left the Jews, in past biblical history the Jews have been able to rebuild Jerusalem after its destruction.

The Jews certainly dont have Gods protection today, look at all the problems in there holy land.

So on what basis do the Jews say that Jesus wasnt the messiah-and what do they use to back this up?? The Torah clearly points to Jesus as the messiah and so if God has left the Jews-what are they worshipping? and what do they belive in??

I understand some Jews belive in re-incarnation. where the hell does the Torah support that?

You're basically taking some things, interpreting them how you want to, and then saying that you don't understand. You're interpretations are just wrong, no offence intended to you. I don't have enough time to type out a full reply now but I'll throw in one quick thing. You said that the destruction of the Temple means that God has left the Jews. It doesn't mean that. The Temple was destroyed once and rebuilt and destroyed again. In our belief we wait for the rebuilding of the Temple and the messiah. Moses never said total destruction would come upon them, and as proof - there are still Jews today as we have not been completely destroyed. He did say that evil will befall you if you stray from the right path.



[This message has been edited by wolfhound (edited 06-11-2004).]

Very nice wolfhound

"According to Christians, Judaism as God's religion ended with the death of Christ."

-So what? Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, please understand that.

"The Torah points to the time of Jesus being alive, as to when he will come on to save mankind from eternal sin and imperfection by dying for us."

-I've never seen that in the Torah. Please give me a quote or I'll just assume that you are talking crap.

"So.... if the messiah did not come at that time as most Jews beleive(they rejected him) then what are they now waiting for??"

-The REAL Messiah. NOT the return of Jesus, but the coming of the GENUINE Messiah.

According to Jewish belief he we among other things be a great warrior - proof that Jesus wasn't the Messiah.

The second coming is an entirely Christian concept when you realised that Christ hadn't fulfilled the prophecies you claimed he would come back, Jewish literature points to the prophecies being fulfilled outright, and then the Messiah will die like a normal man and not be resurrected - another Christian idea.

"Is Judaism not a religion anymore, but just a way of life which they could not give up so carried on the traditions forward???"

-Is Christianity a religion based on a false Messiah???

Moron.

"feel free to correct me on this."

Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah so we are still waiting for him to come.

"The Jews beleived that the Messiah would break them free from Roman rule"

-Bullshit. Back that up with a quote.

"he jews did try to make Jesus king at one point, obviously beliving him to be the Messiah and beleiving that installing him as King would bring an end to Roman occupation."

-Bullshit. Back that up with a quote.

Dan 9:24 `Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

Dan 9:25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.

Dan 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

"The prophecies at Daniel 9 verses 24-27 point to Jesus coming in the first Century CE. The Jews actually wondered if John the Baptist was the Christ." - WHAT??? Read that quote.

-You have taken that Isaiah quote out of context. "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." You got the wrong tense.

The destruction of the Temple=God leaving the Jews.

-Ahahahaha! What the fuck? Then how did it happen twice, and why wasn't it destroyed completely?

"The Jews certainly dont have Gods protection today, look at all the problems in there holy land."

- Of course we do. But theres something called free will.

"So on what basis do the Jews say that Jesus wasnt the messiah-and what do they use to back this up?"

-My basis is the Holy Torah which you have perverted and misquoted to try and prove that this Jesus was the Messiah DESPITE NOT BEING A WARLORD FOR FUCKING HELL'S SAKE HE WASN'T A WARLORD.

And have you ever read the Talmud - the Oral Torah? You can't just read half the Torah by reading the Pentateuch because then you would make mistakes that would make you seem stupid, such as that remark about reincarnation.

Please stop interpreting the Torah in any way you can to "prove" that Jesus was the Messiah. Please read the Talmud before you blabber on about what you percieve to be the Torah.

And to prove that God hasn't left us: We have almost 4000 years of history in which we moved over almost the whole world, because some of the most influential people in the world, and still retained our traditions.

EDIT : If you have any serious questions about Judaism and aren't just trying to ridicule (which is absurd seeing as you are quoting from only 1/2 the Torah) then I'll be more than happy to answer them.

And please show me where the Torah says that the Messiah will be God in human form. It seems to me that this is another entirely Christian invention.



[This message has been edited by Aphelion Corona (edited 06-11-2004).]

Hold on a second here. Nevermind's argument seems to be composed pretty much of "this is what Christians believe-and that makes Jews wrong. Basically, the Jews do not believe Jesus to be the messiah and do not believe he fullfilled their prophecies (which I actually tend to agree with-we're not exactly living in a messianic era are we? and the time after Jesus hiimself died, it wasn't that messianic either). Anyway, that makes all your arguments pretty much redundant.

OK.

Jews believe in the Old Testament. In a number of places in the Old Testament, there are prophecies as to how God's people will know the messiah when he comes. Here's a website with an assload of examples:

http://www.messianic-prophecy.net/

But Jesus was a poor man and the Jews were expecting a Super-Man-like King, so they didn't believe him to be the messiah.

Here's i think a more interesting question than "What are Jews waiting for?":

Why Aren't Jews Still Sacrificing Animals?

According to the OT, a blood sacrifice is required to cleanse sin. Jews still believe in Sin, so without Jesus' blood, shouldn't they be offering blood sacrifices?

You're asking an interesting question Nevermind, keep looking into it despite what some of the bastards are saying ;-).

theBishop

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nevermind:



So.... if the messiah did not come at that time as most Jews beleive(they rejected him) then what are they now waiting for??

[/qoute]

The Jews didn't reject Jesus's teachings, but it's against Judaic beliefs to worship anyone/thing other than god, and they didn't believe that Jesus was god so they didn't worship him like the Christians.

And as far as what they're waiting for: they're waiting for the messiah. The Christians thought the messiah was Jesus, the Jews disagreed. How hard is this to understand? I think Mother Teresa was really great, but I don't think she was the messiah.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nevermind:



Is Judaism not a religion anymore, but just a way of life which they could not give up so carried on the traditions forward???

[/qoute]

- Judaism is still a religion and a way of life.

Cheers,

Lost

You're right Lost, but Mother Tereasa doesn't fulfill any ancient prophecy either.

How could I not agree with some of Jesus' teachings if they derived from the teachings of the Rabbis at that time?

I also believe in Rashi's teachings but I don't think he was the Messiah.

For the Messiah to come don't all twelve tribes need to be gathered in the Holy land?

[This message has been edited by Keltoiberserker (edited 06-12-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

I dont understand Jewish logic concerning there interpretation of the Bible.

-Both parts of it are Jewish, the latter polluted by Rome

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nevermind:

[B]The Jews beleived that the Messiah would break them free from Roman rule. The jews did try to make Jesus king at one point, obviously beliving him to be the Messiah and beleiving that installing him as King would bring an end to Roman occupation.



-Where did you get this?

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

The prophecies at Daniel 9 verses 24-27 point to Jesus coming in the first Century CE. The Jews actually wondered if John the Baptist was the Christ.



-No, it doesn't.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

Isaih chapter 53 told the jews that the Christ would die for there sins. Jews beleiving that Abrahams example would atone for there sins, didnt belive that Jesus needed to die for them.



-I see this, but animal sacrifice in my eyes is horrid.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

When the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, the prophecy at Isaiah 53:3 says ""he was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains... he was despised and we held him as of no account"



-Go to an Islamic country and slander Muhammad, let's see how long you live. The Roman's iced him for being a power threat. Anyone claiming to be Messiah without proof wil be looked down on, a man claiming to be God was very very lucky that he wasn't stoned on the spot.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

Moses prophecied that Israel would turn away from true worship, and that total destruction would come upon them. (Deuteronomy 31).



-Total destruction never occured, and never will.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

After Jesus was executed, in 70 CE the Romans totaly destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem and practically wiped out the Jewish culture.



-They left one wall standing, and dispersed the Jews, they didn't wipe out Jewish culture and let Jews exist for the most part, but there were massacres in which many were killed with Christians.

-They should've destroyed the temple right after they tacked up Jesus, they didn't.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

The destruction of the Temple=God leaving the Jews.



-Where did you get this? The Temple was destroyed after a rebellion was quelled. There were many rebellions against Rome. The Jews like the Kelts didn't go down without a fight.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

The temple has never been rebuilt, showing that God has left the Jews, in past biblical history the Jews have been able to rebuild Jerusalem after its destruction.



-It will be rebuilt one day.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

The Jews certainly dont have Gods protection today, look at all the problems in there holy land.



-God's protection? The nation hasn't been destroyed even by all of the countries around them.

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

So on what basis do the Jews say that Jesus wasnt the messiah-and what do they use to back this up?? The Torah clearly points to Jesus as the messiah and so if God has left the Jews-what are they worshipping? and what do they belive in??



-God never left the Jews, most Christians believe that Jews are still with god but that the covenant has been extended to those all over the Earth who are non-Jewish as long as they follow 2 rules. The seven Noahid laws annul this but they're nice rules even if Christian.

-Love thy neighbor

-Be a good person (samaritan, whatever)

-So where do you get that they were left?

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

I understand some Jews belive in re-incarnation. where the hell does the Torah support that?

-Gilgul Neshamot, I think that's the name of it

I'm an agnostic, but I've studied Judaism as a youngin because my mom who was best friends with some Jews when younger bought me a book about it. It also runs in the family, my cousin's best friend is Jewish, a good friend of mine is Jewish, even my great-grandpa who made anti-semitic comments as provocation was friends with Jew. A Jew in the IRA no less.

*IRA mentioned here means the one from the early 1900's, not the terrorists from '60s onward.

theBishop: Jewish people no longer make animal sacrifices because of the destruction of the temple.

There are some groups that want to rebuld the temple and reinstitute animal sacrifice.

In reply to (I think) Inquisitor referring to Isaiah 9:6 as concerning the Messiah.

I went to synagogue this morning and looked at a copy of Isaiah with Ibn Ezra and Rashi commentary in both Hebrew and English.

I noted that Isaiah 9:6 contains the word vayikra (He called) as apposed to veyikre (He will be called) and doesn't refer to the Messiah at all but infact to the son of the current king. The subcommentary noted that when the Bible was translated for Christian usage the word was spelt wrong to try to convey a different meaning.

Young's literal translation is closer to the original version of Isaiah, and says:

Isa 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Present tense

Here it is in Hebrew : http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl ?book=Isa&chapter=9&version=heb&Go.x=36&Go.y=7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=9&version=heb&Go.x=36&Go.y=7)

According to Jewish belief this passage is concerning the son of the current King who will bring peace to the land, and will therefore be known as the prince of peace, unfortunately I can't remember his name and I obviously couldn't write it down. If anyone can then please remind me.

This is also an amazing site to use. http://www.levsoftware.com/verses.htm



[This message has been edited by Aphelion Corona (edited 06-12-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

The Jews certainly dont have Gods protection today, look at all the problems in there holy land.



Oh really?? Then don't you think they should have been killed off by now since almost every group of people has tried to kill then all? (at one time or another)

I disagree with you on the fact that they have no protection.

Sorry about my confusion in the other thread- all is made clear now. Thanx.

How much does the changing tense effect the claim in 9:6? Plus there's still 7:14 as well (and, unfortuently, we've gotta have a healthy skepticism about both contemporary Christian and Jewish translation and commentary on Messiah related passages, which really makes life harder for all of us).

This is a great thread, I have read a book about the Qabalah, it is an interesting belief, I'd like to ask any jews who are reading this, if they know about the Qabalah, and if so what they think about it, and how best to learn about it.

I'm not Jewish but I find QBLH rather interesting. Maybe someone versed in this can private message me.

quote:Originally posted by penjo0in:

This is a great thread, I have read a book about the Qabalah, it is an interesting belief, I'd like to ask any jews who are reading this, if they know about the Qabalah, and if so what they think about it, and how best to learn about it.

Well according to Orthodox Jewish belief you probably can't learn direct Kabbalistic knowledge because I doubt that you are a married male Jew over 40 years of age and a load of other stuff (age restriction actually doesn't apply to Sephardi Jews) but you can learn Kabbalah from books on the subject etc. as this is seen as 1 removed from the source.

At least that's the Orthodox Judaic view (I think :S)

I know a bit about Kabbalah I have a book by Avraham Yaakov Finkel called "Kabbalah" which is very interesting because Finkel talks about the lives of famous Kabbalists and then quotes excerpts from their work which he then explains.

I think it's a very interesting subject providing it's not abused by those people trying to teach Madonna. Their Kabbalah is enhancing yourself whereas the essence of true Kabbalah is to become at peace with the Universe, to become a part of it.

I don't reccomend the internet for learning about Kabbalah unless you want a bunch of sites made by complete n00bs. Try and find a book on Amazon and start from there.

http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm

Heres a good site to get you started.