All I need is a little proof, but this wanting of proof is called a lacking of Faith?

Why?

Dont we all want proof?

When you buy a car dont you want proof that it can actually run?

.. where is this proof that I seek? where can I find it? is it that hard for God, the almighty being to just send me proof?

No mirrors where you live?

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 06-11-2004).]

honey, god is like the square root of -1, he don't exist cept in the minds of the sheep taht are searching for some higher power to stop their chaotic lives. he can't send you proof, but if ull let me be god ill send you proof , lol

Funny thing about that, heh.

By asking for proof, you show lack of faith. Therefore you most likely won't receive any proof.

It's hard to explain, but, I don't know, I understand it in my mind.

There's a good book I would suggest to you. Makes you think about things a little differently. It's called Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It's not a real preaching kind of annoying Christian book, not at all. In fact, just read the first part or so. Lewis (a former atheist) explains why he is sure there is a higher being, a creator. Unfortunately, that didn't really help me in connecting that creator with the God portrayed in the Bible. Still took a lot of doubt out of my mind, and gave me the "proof" you speak of to an extent.

quote:Originally posted by 8abs10fingers:

All I need is a little proof, but this wanting of proof is called a lacking of Faith?

Why?

Dont we all want proof?

When you buy a car dont you want proof that it can actually run?

.. where is this proof that I seek? where can I find it? is it that hard for God, the almighty being to just send me proof?

I guess you'll have proof one way or another when you die. I've resigned myself to the fact that I'll never have proof while I'm alive, and I suggest you do the same.

quote:Originally posted by Roostergougingureyesout:

honey, god is like the square root of -1, he don't exist cept in the minds of the sheep taht are searching for some higher power to stop their chaotic lives. he can't send you proof, but if ull let me be god ill send you proof , lol

Hey man, the square root of -1 does have its uses, as does religion.

quote:Originally posted by Diokhan:

Hey man, the square root of -1 does have its uses, as does religion.

yeah they are both killing me, lol

Proof on What??

If its Christianality, I can help you there.

strive

Glad you understand in your mind whocares123, because it sure doesn't make sense to me.

Theologians count on the validity of faith in addition ot reason. This faith is an intuitive recognition of God and an affirmation of God's positive nature. In your Judeo-Christian model of God and the story of 'the Fall upward', upward because it represent the alienation from God through reason. Apparently the forbidden fruit was reason/knowledge. Philosophy on the other hand uses efforts of reason that are focused on proofd for the existence of God. People like Aristotle, the Watchmaker argument, Saint Anselm, and Immanuel Kant.

Books for you to reference:

God the Problem, Gordon Kaufman; Theological Investigations 22 vols., Karl Rahner; Systematic Theologu 2 vols., Wolfhart Pannenberg; Naming the Whirlwind, Langdon Gilkey; Existence of God John H. Hick; The ontological Argument, ed. Alvin Plantinga

[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 06-11-2004).]

What evidence do theologians have that "intuition" is an accurate means of obtaining knowledge?

They don't. Philosophers doascertain proof via reason. Some theologians can be philsophers, believe it or not. The cosmological argument is as follows, followed by philosophers and theologians: i) everything has a cause ii)No thing is the cause of itself iii)the universe is a thing. iv) The universe is not the cause of itself.

[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 06-12-2004).]

Originally posted by Lokil:

i) everything has a cause ii)No thing is the cause of itself iii)the universe is a thing. iv) The universe is not the cause of itself.



OK, let's take that reasoning one step further:



1)Every thing has a cause.

2)No thing is the cause of itself.

3)God is (according to theists)a thing.

4)God is not the cause of himself.

God is not a thing, he is the uncause creator. The difference between him and the universe is he is a conscious all powerful being, where as the universe is just, well, the universe. That's why it needs a cause and God does not.

quote:Originally posted by whocares123:

God is not a thing, he is the uncause creator. The difference between him and the universe is he is a conscious all powerful being, where as the universe is just, well, the universe. That's why it needs a cause and God does not.



And what proof can you show to support your position? I see no evidence of a conscious,all powerful being.I do see proof that the universe exists.

All you can offer is what you accept as the truth, even though logical reasoning cannot support your view.Faith does not constitute proof.Physical evidence does.

There is much more evidence to support the idea that man created god, rather than god created man.

No offense intended.You have the right to believe what you want. I just prefer to base what I believe on what is reasonable. Not on unfounded faith.

How am I supposed to have faith in something I don't believe in?

Could you have faith in the Easter Bunny?

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Glad you understand in your mind whocares123, because it sure doesn't make sense to me.

made sense to me man. God will show you he exists when you yourself know he exists yah think about it its hard to explian but it makes a lot of sense.

You can't be shown god. you can only experience god. You already do experience god but without enough clarity to really understand what it is you're experiencing.

To experience God with clarity takes work, and if all you do is sit around debating this and that, you aint gonna acheive it.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

You can't be shown god. you can only experience god. You already do experience god but without enough clarity to really understand what it is you're experiencing.

To experience God with clarity takes work, and if all you do is sit around debating this and that, you aint gonna acheive it.

Also:



originally posted by Lucky:

"made sense to me man. God will show you he exists when you yourself know he exists yah think about it its hard to explian but it makes a lot of sense."

----------------------------------------------------



So basicly,if a person disregards all reasoning based on verifiable evidence,is willing and able to convince himself/herself that there exists a higher power responsible for all that happens in the universe,that the person will be able to see evidence of that higher power?

Obviously, if you are able to convince yourself that there is a higher power,it would be relatively simple to delude yourself into giving credit to that power for normally occuring events.







[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 06-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by 8abs10fingers:

All I need is a little proof, but this wanting of proof is called a lacking of Faith?

Why?

Dont we all want proof?

When you buy a car dont you want proof that it can actually run?

.. where is this proof that I seek? where can I find it? is it that hard for God, the almighty being to just send me proof?

What sort of proof do you seek ? The Bible is not only the handbook for the life we live on earth, but it is also more than ample proof, intellectually. The Holy Spirit is our proof spiritually, and if it is physical proof you are seeking, Jesus talks about the "wicked and adulterous generation", and how no more signs would be given to us, because even when He did bless us with miracles and signs, we still did not believe.

quote: No offense intended.You have the right to believe what you want. I just prefer to base what I believe on what is reasonable.

Would that include "Evolution"...excuse me, all the Bunk taught in the name of Evolution.

don't believe in anything

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Originally posted by Lokil:

i) everything has a cause ii)No thing is the cause of itself iii)the universe is a thing. iv) The universe is not the cause of itself.



OK, let's take that reasoning one step further:



1)Every thing has a cause.

2)No thing is the cause of itself.

3)God is (according to theists)a thing.

4)God is not the cause of himself.





He is a metaphysical object. Look up metaphysical, trucker.

Look up and flick of god, and tell him to go fuck himself. If you are struck by lightning then he exists. If not then he doesn't.

quote:Originally posted by Jesus:

Look up and flick of god, and tell him to go fuck himself. If you are struck by lightning then he exists. If not then he doesn't.

That is a pretty fallible way of testing God, since I doubt He would care about something so childish and ignorant. You are humanizing God, and that is ridiculous.

You: " Nanny-nanny-boo-boo !"

God: (continues to bring peace the hearts, minds and souls of those He calls His children...answering millions of prayers, and at the same time ruling Heaven)

He also speaks against testing Him, since it is not seeking proof for faith, it is deliberate disregard and disrespect.

Do you ask your mother to prove that you were born of her ? Probably not...why ? How do you know you weren't abducted, or adopted ?

If you did, her response would most decidedly be that of a human, from a human perspective, with human emotions involved.

God, as an omnipotent, all-knowing entity, would never succumb to the labor of emotion resulting from insult and ridicule. It is just not His nature.

Can you try and THINK before you speak ?

quote:Originally posted by Jesus:

Look up and flick of god, and tell him to go fuck himself. If you are struck by lightning then he exists. If not then he doesn't.

That made absolutely no sense to me. Are you refrring to a movie? I thought the dumbest of people know that screenwriters include their own agendas into films as a way of self-validity their whacked out beliefs - liberal ot conservative.

What were you trying to say, Jesus?

quote:Originally posted by Lokil:



He is a metaphysical object. Look up metaphysical, trucker.

quote:

metaphysicalMetaphysical

Main Entry: meta·phys·i·cal

Pronunciation: -'fi-zi-k&l

Function: adjective

1 : of or relating to metaphysics

2 a : of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses b : SUPERNATURAL

3 : highly abstract or abstruse; also : THEORETICAL

So, by definition, God ,is beyond perception in this reality.Ok, in what way does this idea provide any proof of his existance?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That is a pretty fallible way of testing God, since I doubt He would care about something so childish and ignorant. You are humanizing God, and that is ridiculous.

Perhaps you should read the bible. People are killed by god for making fun of his "prophets", mauled by bears and the like. God must have gotten a lot nicer in 2000 years.

Well this is a proof that we do not need god to have the universe.

Douglas Adams is responsible for this.

Anything that happens happens, anything that in happening causes something else to happen causes something else to happen and anything that in happening causes itself to happen again happens again.

The second two statements are derived by Adams from the first. This is a tautology, but a unique one in that it requires no information to go in, but an infinite amount of information comes out of it.

And that is all paraphrased out of the book The Salmon Of Doubt. The tautology istelf as some of you know is also at the begining of mostly harmless(I think, my copy of the guide is loaned out right now). It also adds "but not neccesarily in that order" which is to say that we are here now, so this instant could cause the beggining of the universe. It isnt a logical conclusion of course, but logic isnt everything.

And of course what lokil said earlier about the cosmilogical argument does not agree with this.

Hey, does anyone know who the bible was written by? HUMANS! There will never be physical proof of god while you are alive, or when your dead. All christianity is, is just a bunch of bullshit meant to scare you into being a "perfect" person, like jesus -- "I will forgive your sins." If I were your "god" and I had all these special powers I couldnt give a fuck less about what you did. I'd be busy entertaining myself with magick and stuff.. But your god is perfect and he doesnt do that, if god is perfect why would he create man in his image that ISNT perfect. If he preferred we worship him then why would he let us NOT worship him. Leaving us to that of hell, if we didnt. If he loved us all then why would he even bother to let there be even a possibility of going to hell. Too many people are brainwashed into law biting citizens, because they are afraid of commiting unforgivable sins. That is why the people who wrote the bible are so smart.. Theyve managed to get billions of people to beleive their rediculous fairy tail-like story.

Not trying to start a fight just speaking my oppinion.. This doesnt even strach the surface.

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

How am I supposed to have faith in something I don't believe in?

Could you have faith in the Easter Bunny?

that is the exact inverse definition of faith. many children believe in the easter bunny and because of there belief, they have faith that it will deposit eggs and stuff.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Originally posted by Lokil:

i) everything has a cause ii)No thing is the cause of itself iii)the universe is a thing. iv) The universe is not the cause of itself.



OK, let's take that reasoning one step further:



1)Every thing has a cause.

2)No thing is the cause of itself.

3)God is (according to theists)a thing.

4)God is not the cause of himself.



i'm not sure but i think what you are saying in number 4 is that since God is not the cause of Himself, then man is the cause of God...

The problem here is that you are not taking into account His being eternal.

quote:Originally posted by FeaRSeL:

Hey, does anyone know who the bible was written by? HUMANS!

God inspired

quote:

There will never be physical proof of god while you are alive, or when your dead.

Are you willing to stake eternity on your assumption?

quote:

All christianity is, is just a bunch of bullshit meant to scare you into being a "perfect" person

For whose benifit? No religion that i know of makes makes the claim that anyone is perfect. And Christianity teaches --- All have fallen short of the Glory of God

like jesus -- "I will forgive your sins."

quote:

If I were your "god" and I had all these special powers I couldnt give a fuck less about what you did. I'd be busy entertaining myself with magick and stuff..

would you really?? Think about that.

quote:

But your god is perfect and he doesnt do that, if god is perfect why would he create man in his image that ISNT perfect.

Man was perfect at creation, with perfect freewill. And remember, created in His image and likeness does not mean cloned as if we were little gods.

quote:

If he preferred we worship him then why would he let us NOT worship him. Leaving us to that of hell, if we didnt. If he loved us all then why would he even bother to let there be even a possibility of going to hell.

I dont know. Have to ask Him yourself. As to right now, I am content not knowing the answer to that one.

What really makes me wonder is why He would love me (us) so much to redeem. To send His Son to hell in my (our) place.

Now before someone goes on to think and respond about (what they think is) a low self-esteem. Many of my friends and even some people that dont "like" me, have said what a "good and honest" person i am. But i know that they are saying that from a worldly outlook. And from a worldly point-o-view, im happy with myself and my life. But i know that everyday i fall WAY short of what God wants.

quote:

Too many people are brainwashed into law biting citizens, because they are afraid of commiting unforgivable sins. That is why the people who wrote the bible are so smart.. Theyve managed to get billions of people to beleive their rediculous fairy tail-like story.

Not trying to start a fight just speaking my oppinion.. This doesnt even strach the surface.

the Bible/Christianity teaches that there is only ONE unforgivable sin.

That sin would be BLASPHAMY against the HOLY SPIRIT.

Thank God!! As many people do this against the Father and the Son, yet they can even be forgiven for this, but not of the Holy Spirit.

You said that this doesnt even scratch the surface. Unfortunately, you are more right than you know.

quote:Originally posted by Jesus:

Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That is a pretty fallible way of testing God, since I doubt He would care about something so childish and ignorant. You are humanizing God, and that is ridiculous.

Perhaps you should read the bible. People are killed by god for making fun of his "prophets", mauled by bears and the like. God must have gotten a lot nicer in 2000 years.



Mauled by bears ? What Bible are YOU reading ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Mauled by bears ? What Bible are YOU reading ?

Old Testament. God sends 2 female bears to maul 42 children for mocking Elijah's bald head.

2 Kings 2:23: And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2:24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Old Testament. God sends 2 female bears to maul 42 children for mocking Elijah's bald head.

2 Kings 2:23: And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2:24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

So, by that you think God sent the bears ? This man cursed those children, by interpretation, and in the Old Testament times blessings and curses were honored equally.

How did GOD send the bears ? *confused*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, by that you think God sent the bears ? This man cursed those children, by interpretation, and in the Old Testament times blessings and curses were honored equally.

How did GOD send the bears ? *confused*



*Blinks*

Umm, lemme think on this one for a whole second. Elijah, a prophet of GOD, cursed the children... IN THE LORD'S NAME... and just at that moment the bears come out and do their handiwork.

I suppose it was merely a coincidence, eh? Funny how there are all these coincidental freak occurances going on in the Bible when God's prophets invoke his name.

Maybe Elijah just happened to have some She Bear in a Can (http://www.lordcocentre.com/Stores/lordco/154.html).

<A HREF="http://www.lordcocentre.com/Stores/lordco/personal/154/canbear.jpg">http://www.lordcocentre.com/Stores/lordco/personal/154/canbear.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://www.lordcocentre.com/Stores/lordco/personal/154/canbear.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

*Blinks*

Shebears in a can



now that was funny..LOL!!

i gotta remember that one

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Are you willing to stake eternity on your assumption?

I really hate it when people use this aurgument. First of all it makes your own beliefs suspect, do believe because you think your religon is true or do you believe because if you don't you will be punished for an eternity? Second of all what if muslims are the "right" religon won't you go to their hell for not believing in their religon? What about every other religon on the planet? Which one should I pick as my protection from being sent to that religons hell?

quote:Originally posted by Jesus:

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Are you willing to stake eternity on your assumption?

I really hate it when people use this aurgument. First of all it makes your own beliefs suspect, do believe because you think your religon is true or do you believe because if you don't you will be punished for an eternity? Second of all what if muslims are the "right" religon won't you go to their hell for not believing in their religon? What about every other religon on the planet? Which one should I pick as my protection from being sent to that religons hell?

this is what i responded to:

Originally posted by FeaRSeL:

There will never be physical proof of god while you are alive, or when your dead.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, I do believe because my religion is true. This is what I have been pondering for atleast 35 years now.

Namely, since there are so many religions and beliefs in the world, one belief must be the belief that is the closest to being correct. This quest has included different versions of atheism and agnosticism as well as judeo-christian teachings. I am not saying that I am right on my own accord, but this conclusion comes from having an open mind and looking at things from many different angles and outlooks.

I suppose, in a way, this may be seen as non-blind faith. But this is part of who I am, what i was created to be.

And no, I dont think believe just so that i dont receive eternal punishment. In fact, when i do (what i think are) good things, i am not doing them to "help" me get to heaven, but from thanks and love to God.

What you called an arguement that you hate, was simply a question to which I am willing to stake my eternity.

FeaRSeL stated that " There will never be physical proof of god while you are alive, or when your dead." And I see proof all around. And I also see things that should be obvious, but just arent there.

When i was young, I read a book about a tracker that said that sometimes to find the trail, you must look where the tracks are not in order to follow. I see alot of that in the bible, in people and their actions, in politics and science. Many things appear as though they have been swept away, hidden by one faction or another.

I will only give one example..

If evolution were the true mechanism to our existence, explain the poison arrow frog.

It has bright colorings as a warning to predators. How could an predator learn and pass the genetic infomation on to its young, if the frog is so deadly?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

since there are so many religions and beliefs in the world, one belief must be the belief that is the closest to being correct.

yeah, it's the belief that nothing really exists, not even your own perceptions and beliefs... it's closest to the truth because it makes no sense and doesn't need to, just like reality. see how that works? probably not, your ability to perceive nothing has hit the roadblock of perceiving only your perception, and not realizing they are empty too.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

yeah, it's the belief that nothing really exists, not even your own perceptions and beliefs... it's closest to the truth because it makes no sense and doesn't need to, just like reality. see how that works? probably not, your ability to perceive nothing has hit the roadblock of perceiving only your perception, and not realizing they are empty too.



WOW!! You mean to tell me that the movie, "Matrix" was a documentary.

You say that it is closest to the truth, but the only way that your statement would be correct is if you know the truth.

*blinks*

*looks at dark_magneto, also blinking*

dude, read the post immediately above mine... YOU EFFECTIVELY CLAIM TO KNOW THE TRUTH, HYPOCRITE!

ooooh, after 35 years of searching and all... wow, i'm so impressed.

christ.

and yes, the only way my post would make sense is if i know the truth... which is funny, because i essentially state that there is no such thing as truth.

hmmmmm, let's think about that one, shall we? (i'll give you a second to scratch your undoubtedly aching head):

-Eil claims that the belief closest to the truth is an empty, paradoxical one.

-he claims this is so because existence is an empty paradox.

-he claims all of this with absolute certainty, as if he knows the truth.

-what an idiot! he doesn't even realize that it's paradoxical to think you know the truth when you claim that there is no such thing!

-wait a second... (xtreem grinds his teeth real hard, scrunches forhead, and shakes his fists to avoid losing the tiny 5 watt light bulb that just went off in his head)

-maybe that's the point!

you either get it, or you don't.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I will only give one example..

If evolution were the true mechanism to our existence, explain the poison arrow frog.

It has bright colorings as a warning to predators. How could an predator learn and pass the genetic infomation on to its young, if the frog is so deadly?

that's so typically stupid and simplistic of a creationist... first of all, that's one very vague, very arguable example, and no reason to do away with the mountains of evidence supporting evolution.

secondly, there are many potential answers to your 'great evolution-stumping' question that i can imagine just off the top of my head.

first one: there is a tendency among many poisonous animals to be brightly colored as a deterrent to predation... as hopefully you know, not all poisonous animals are lethal. also, they may be more harmful to certain predators than to others. those predators that eat brightly colored prey indiscriminately would dwindle in number, while those that avoid bright colors increase. how would the frog pass on his colorful genes to the next generation if he's dead? you're looking at it the wrong way. frogs don't reproduce like higher order mammals or humans. they lay dozens of eggs at a time, making their populations more flexible and resilient than those of their predators. a new gene for color could sustain incredible losses before the predator species has to evolve in response to it.

2: those predators that eat non-lethal poisonous prey will most likely get sick, and may remember to stay away from bright colors in the future. the poisonous prey, including both lethal and non-lethal, have now changed the number of predators above them on the food chain. it is now even more advantageous for the frog to have bright colors.

3: not all animals are as dumb as you. monkeys, wolves, birds, cats, and even tapirs might learn to avoid colorful prey simply by the smell, or even watching a member of their group get sick and die.

4: the colors may have nothing to do with avoiding predation. oops, science might have made a mistake! at least no one's going to hell for it.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

*blinks*

*looks at dark_magneto, also blinking*

dude, read the post immediately above mine... YOU EFFECTIVELY CLAIM TO KNOW THE TRUTH, HYPOCRITE!

effective n adj 1a: producing or able to produce a desired effect b: impressive, striking 2: being in effect operative-- effectively adv--effectiveness n

I am glad i effectively claimed the truth...

however, i stated that i was NOT saying that i was right, only that i having been thinking on this for about 35 years.

you are right, i am a hypocrite, but i fail to see where i have conveyed this gem of knowledge to you. i have not met one person yet that is not a hypocrite about one thing or another. One of my coworkers claims he is not but i have seen his actions prove him wrong. now before you go off ranting that i am judging, it is only an observation.

quote:

ooooh, after 35 years of searching and all... wow, i'm so impressed.

i was simply giving background. Letting a reader know that my beliefs do not come from

blindly following, but from trying to look at other possibilities, and weigh what i have observed.

quote:

and yes, the only way my post would make sense is if i know the truth... which is funny, because i essentially state that there is no such thing as truth.

so, do you make a habit of calling yourself a liar??

quote:

hmmmmm, let's think about that one, shall we? (i'll give you a second to scratch your undoubtedly aching head):.

is my minute up yet?

quote:

-Eil claims that the belief closest to the truth is an empty, paradoxical one.

-he claims this is so because existence is an empty paradox.

-he claims all of this with absolute certainty, as if he knows the truth.

-what an idiot! he doesn't even realize that it's paradoxical to think you know the truth when you claim that there is no such thing!

-wait a second... (xtreem grinds his teeth real hard, scrunches forhead, and shakes his fists to avoid losing the tiny 5 watt light bulb that just went off in his head)

-maybe that's the point!

you either get it, or you don't.

my tiny light bulb is only on when when my mind is open, some people dont even get that pleasure.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

that's so typically stupid and simplistic of a creationist... first of all, that's one very vague, very arguable example, and no reason to do away with the mountains of evidence supporting evolution.



Man, you need a hug, and a coke.

You can't respect anyone else enough to allow them their opinion without insulting them personally.

You have a overgrown sense of self-worth...

You just want proof eh? My little friend, go read the bible. Seriously, I say you start off by reading some of the first NT books about the life of jesus and then maybe go on to read some of those letters to one of the churches or whatever. Now I'm assuming that we're talking about the christian god here... But yeah the bible says something like, blessed are those who have not seen yet believe. So that is indeed the point, but you have to realize that some people see proof in things that aren't just special effects like in the movies, only happening in real life :/ You know, the sunrise and stuff... And people, like someone said earlier, when you see another christian who you knows is a good guy and stuff, and you see how happy he is and how well he manages it can be like, woah that guy there he's got something I don't. If I remember correctly Einstein believed that the perfection of the universe was somehow proof of a higher being of some sort that has created it all somehow.

Look my point is just that proof doesn't have to be a miracle like in the movies, maybe there's miracles all around you only your so used to seeing them that you just more or less ignore them :/ Ok I'm cheesy, so what. Just open your mind a little and make sure to keep your eyes open too. Seen Bruce almighty? Morgan Freeman, playing the character of god, says something like... Crap I can't remember. Anyways he says that the things most people consider miracles are just magic tricks, while a single mother who's got 2 jobs so that she can feed her 3 kids, now that's a miracle. Geddit? :/

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

that's so typically stupid and simplistic of a creationist... first of all, that's one very vague, very arguable example, and no reason to do away with the mountains of evidence supporting evolution.

i light of your recent post about the paradox of truth, and your post where you said, "yeah, it's the belief that nothing really exists, not even your own perceptions and beliefs..." I am very surprised that you even bothered to mention this mountain of evidence, because, as you claim, it is simply a perception of a perception and a non-perception of a non-perception.

As to this mountain of evidence, there is an equally lack of evidence that does not conform to Darwinism (natural selection + mutation = new species) , presented by leading scientists that do not believe in creation either.

These are mostly evolutionists that attack Darwinism:

Botanist, Cytologist .. Dr. Pierre Gavaudan

especially questions carnivorous plants

Zoologist... Pierre-paul Grasse'

wrote--Evolution of Living Organisms

bacteria, whitlow grass, wild pansy all have innumerable mutations but havent evolved

Botanist... J.C. Willis

"The Course of Evolution" questions climbing plants..eg which came 1st: weak stem or climbing tendrils?

Just so you dont think that i got my frog question from creation-scientist 'stuff'. It was came after watching something on animal planet and was MY question. To which you gave ample reason for me to drop it (at least for now).

(did you see my 5 watt bulb go on while my mind was open??)



quote:

how would the frog pass on his colorful genes to the next generation if he's dead? you're looking at it the wrong way. . a new gene for color could sustain incredible losses before the predator species has to evolve in response to it.





I wasnt asking how frog could pass info on, but how predator could. The show i was refering to said that this frog only had 2 natural enimies...Man and some snake that was immuned to the toxins from its skin. It also said that these toxins could kill in a few minutes. So I figured that since it kills so quick, the dying predator would not have time or inclanation to make a little love before it kicked off, thus not causing a chance for passing on that new info about staying away from the bright colored frogs.

quote:

3: not all animals are as dumb as you. monkeys, wolves, birds, cats, and even tapirs might learn to avoid colorful prey simply by the smell, or even watching a member of their group get sick and die.

It is so refreshing that you 'smart people' are so nice and do not resort to personal insults to back up your non-persectined statements. But since i am DUMB maybe i should communicate with sign-language or whatever monkeys, birds, cats, and even tapirs use to talk. Because every ("dumb")

Christian in the world goes out of their way to make fun of my sthpeech immmped-a-mment.

quote:

4: the colors may have nothing to do with avoiding predation. oops, science might have made a mistake! at least no one's going to hell for it.

wrong.... (1)camouflage (2)viceroy butterfly .. so to look like yucky tasting monarch

On predators learning to avoid brightly coloured poisonous food:

I don't think it's a matter of learning so much as a matter of instinct. Animals born that instinctually avoid eating things that are poisonous are more likely to survive than those that don't.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

that is the exact inverse definition of faith. many children believe in the easter bunny and because of there belief, they have faith that it will deposit eggs and stuff.

I'm not talking about your children, I'm talking about you.

I would hope that you don't think it's very likely that the Easter Bunny exists. This being the case, could you have faith in the Easter Bunny?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

since there are so many religions and beliefs in the world, one belief must be the belief that is the closest to being correct.

<A HREF="http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg">http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

On predators learning to avoid brightly coloured poisonous food:

I don't think it's a matter of learning so much as a matter of instinct. Animals born that instinctually avoid eating things that are poisonous are more likely to survive than those that don't.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The crux of the debate is where this instict comes from.

There seems to be only three main possibilities:

1. learned behavior

2. genetic

3. induced by higher power (God)

We see evidence of #1 and #2 but that evidence does not completely explain many cases.

quote:

I'm not talking about your children, I'm talking about you.

I would hope that you don't think it's very likely that the Easter Bunny exists. This being the case, could you have faith in the Easter Bunny?

In your other post you asked, "How am I supposed to have faith in something I don't believe in?

Could you have faith in the Easter Bunny?"

I do not believe in the easter bunny, so I do not have faith in the easter bunny.

It is possible to believe in something but to not have faith in it. The devil would believe in God but i doubt he has faith in Him.

I do believe and have faith in God, however.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

&lt;A HREF="http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg"&gt; <A HREF="http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg">http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_populum.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A> &lt;/A&gt;

I am not catholic and i think that some of there teachings are wrong.

I am lutheran and i think that some of their teachings are wrong also. But this is a differant topic.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Craftian:

On predators learning to avoid brightly coloured poisonous food:

I don't think it's a matter of learning so much as a matter of instinct. Animals born that instinctually avoid eating things that are poisonous are more likely to survive than those that don't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you hit the nail on the head. The crux of the debate is where this instict comes from.

There seems to be only three main possibilities:

1. learned behavior

2. genetic

3. induced by higher power (God)

We see evidence of #1 and #2 but that evidence does not completely explain many cases.



JEEZUS!!! man, clarity doesn't mean anything to you, does it? first of all, learned behavior can not be instinctual! that's the definition of learned behavior.

secondly, what specific cases does genetic selection not explain?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

effective n adj 1a: producing or able to produce a desired effect b: impressive, striking 2: being in effect operative-- effectively adv--effectiveness n

I am glad i effectively claimed the truth...

however, i stated that i was NOT saying that i was right, only that i having been thinking on this for about 35 years.

quote: 'Yes, I do believe because my religion is true.' -xtreem

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

you are right, i am a hypocrite... One of my coworkers claims he is not but i have seen his actions prove him wrong. now before you go off ranting that i am judging, it is only an observation.

----

so, do you make a habit of calling yourself a liar??

i don't call myself a liar, that would be lying, something i try not to do... apparently you have no problems with it.

like i did say - you either get it, or you don't.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

my tiny light bulb is only on when when my mind is open, some people dont even get that pleasure.

only a naive egotist would claim it is a pleasure to have an open mind. having a truly open mind is the most difficult endeavor of the human spirit.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Man, you need a hug, and a coke.

You can't respect anyone else enough to allow them their opinion without insulting them personally.

You have a overgrown sense of self-worth...

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! ME??? i have an overgrown sense of self-worth?? i'm not the one that believes i'm more worthy for entrance into that exclusive club in the sky than the lowly infidels!

i can and do respect plenty of people. just because i choose to insult morons overtly, instead of being a condescending, self-righteous prick in denial like you does not mean i have an over-inflated sense of self-worth. i continually strive to understand my limitations. (of course it is hard to see them sometimes when one is as awesome as i am)

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! ME??? i have an overgrown sense of self-worth?? i'm not the one that believes i'm more worthy for entrance into that exclusive club in the sky than the lowly infidels!

i can and do respect plenty of people. just because i choose to insult morons overtly, instead of being a condescending, self-righteous prick in denial like you does not mean i have an over-inflated sense of self-worth. i continually strive to understand my limitations. (of course it is hard to see them sometimes when one is as awesome as i am)

You have just as much right to be there as I do...I am a sinner, just like everyone else.

The difference between you and me is that I can accept the fact that I am not my own creator, and that I owe my love, honor, and allegiance to the One that DID create me.

I am not under the misconception that I am too great to be created.

When have I been condescending ? I have put facts about the Christian faith on this forum, with no intention of starting, or being involved in, a hostile dispute.

You have been throwing personal jabs since I began posting, and you don't know who I am from a hole in the ground.

Maybe you should consider from where this anger originates.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

i light of your recent post about the paradox of truth, and your post where you said, "yeah, it's the belief that nothing really exists, not even your own perceptions and beliefs..." I am very surprised that you even bothered to mention this mountain of evidence, because, as you claim, it is simply a perception of a perception and a non-perception of a non-perception.

actually, it is the perception of a non-perception, and the non-perception of a perception. you got it backwards.

yeah, that sounds about right.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

As to this mountain of evidence, there is an equally lack of evidence that does not conform to Darwinism (natural selection + mutation = new species) , presented by leading scientists that do not believe in creation either.

These are mostly evolutionists that attack Darwinism:

Botanist, Cytologist .. Dr. Pierre Gavaudan

especially questions carnivorous plants

that's fine. what's your point? that science is asking questions without resorting to the easy, pre-fabricated "god did it" answer?? GOOD.

also, it's not an 'equally lack' of evidence. there's a word for evidence that appears to possiblycontradict an established theory. it is called an anomoly, and until further studied and understood, it does not nullify the theory.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

wrong.... (1)camouflage (2)viceroy butterfly .. so to look like yucky tasting monarch



what? that doesn't even make sense. is that a counterpoint or something? i was talking about poison arrow frogs, i'm fully aware of mimic species.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You have just as much right to be there as I do...I am a sinner, just like everyone else.

The difference between you and me is that I can accept the fact that I am not my own creator, and that I owe my love, honor, and allegiance to the One that DID create me.

I am not under the misconception that I am too great to be created.

Maybe you should consider from where this anger originates.

see, there you go. being condescending and trying to brainwash. get it straight, assfuck, i am NOT a sinner. sinning is a childish concept in my worldview. i am a human being, and as such, i am capable of much worse than sinning. paradoxically (of course) i'm also capable of much more than just divine transcendence.

so before you start pointing out the differences between me and you, shut the fuck up and allow me to show you them. i am not a christian, i am not an atheist, i am not an agnostic, i am not a buddhist, i am not a category. i am a person. my god is freedom, and freedom alone. i am freedom's slave.

it's good that you are not under the misconception that you are too great to be created, because you are not. unfortunately, you are mistaken that it has to remain that way. and so, you can not be truly creat-IVE, because you are a programmed machine, whose feelings of love, honor, and allegiance are inconsequential.

i know all too well where my anger comes from. it stems from the bruises i've sustained from all these fools bumping into me. the idiots who go through life with their eyes closed, thinking the world is dark. the next moron that stumbles into me or steps on my toes instead of just opening up his fucking eyes... i'm going to break his nose for him.

[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 06-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

No mirrors where you live?

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 06-11-2004).]

Yeah, they are man made! And my parents made me, and their parents made them, and so on. If you too far back, you get into science theories and evolution. At least, there offer has more proof than faith!

You are right, religion isn't totally useless. I mean, with out it, we wouldn't have so many wars in our human history. And of course, who would want to ever get rid of war? That would be dumb!

Yeah, I accepted their was no proof, just like Santa Clause. Think about it, if Santa was real - why haven't any scientists, explorers, eskimos, or satellites spotted his place in the north pole? Same situation with god.

quote:Originally posted by 8abs10fingers:

All I need is a little proof, but this wanting of proof is called a lacking of Faith?

Why?

Dont we all want proof?

When you buy a car dont you want proof that it can actually run?

.. where is this proof that I seek? where can I find it? is it that hard for God, the almighty being to just send me proof?

God/religion = Irony

quote:Originally posted by 8abs10fingers:

All I need is a little proof.....

I'll translate: "I want to physically see God"

Theres Proofs and logical Arguments, personally I dont think he'll entertain any of them, no matter how reasonable. This isnt a "Search for God", No, this is a Cheapshot.

How much time and what rescourses have you examined in your "Search for God?"

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



When have I been condescending ? I have put facts about the Christian faith on this forum, with no intention of starting, or being involved in, a hostile dispute.



oh yeah, i forgot to mention. your handle on totse is 'Digital_Savior'... how's that for inflated self-worth and condescension right off the bat.

quote:Originally posted by Sniper Piper:

I'll translate: "I want to physically see God"

[/B]

You can't be shown god. you can only experience god. You already do experience god but without enough clarity to really understand what it is you're experiencing.

To experience God with clarity takes work, and if all you do is sit around debating this and that, you aint gonna acheive it.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I do not believe in the easter bunny, so I do not have faith in the easter bunny.

That was my point when I made the original post.

whocares123 said:

quote:Funny thing about that, heh.

By asking for proof, you show lack of faith. Therefore you most likely won't receive any proof.

So if I don't have faith, I won't get proof. Without proof, I can't have faith.

It's a vicious circle.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

only a naive egotist would claim it is a pleasure to have an open mind. having a truly open mind is the most difficult endeavor of the human spirit.

quote:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

i stated that i was NOT saying that i was right, only that i having been thinking on this for about 35 years.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote: 'Yes, I do believe because my religion is true.' -xtreem



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

you are right, i am a hypocrite...



i don't call myself a liar, that would be lying, something i try not to do... apparently you have no problems with it.

like i did say - you either get it, or you don't.



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

my tiny light bulb is only on when when my mind is open, some people dont even get that pleasure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

only a naive egotist would claim it is a pleasure to have an open mind. having a truly open mind is the most difficult endeavor of the human spirit.

&gt;&gt; humbly backing down&lt;&lt;

^if that is the case, i humbly ask you to forgive my excessive zeal.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

^if that is the case, i humbly ask you to forgive my excessive zeal.

my hat is off to you ^ :-}

you seem to be a very good debater

the part that got me most was the egotism. I was arguing for my own "win". And when you pointed out that I lied (i did have to go back to make sure it wasnt twisted or taken out of context), I had no choice to back down. Any credibility i might have had, was shot.

&lt;&lt;forgiving excess zeal&gt;&gt;

Holy shit! People having a calm, reasoned discussion on TOTSE?

I don't believe it.

^i know. what's the word for that? it's like that ancient mystical concept from eons ago. hoep?? hoap? hope?? something like that...

quote: when you see another christian who you knows is a good guy and stuff, and you see how happy he is and how well he manages it can be like, woah that guy there he's got something I don't.[QUOTE]

I don't think that at all. I am a much happier and caring person now as an atheist then I ever was when I was raised christian. I don't feel a lakcing of anything.

[QUOTE] How much time and what rescourses have you examined in your "Search for God?"

I was raised christian all my life. The MORE I learned about the christian God and Christianity history the more it drove me away. I spent a good solid 3 years learning about natural history with bible study, then about other religions. I THEN spent a solid 2 years after of just prayer, seeing if I even felt anything remotly divine trying to "guide" my soul.



And I got absolutly nada. And like I said earlier, I feel happier now.

To the guy who says you learned about other religions as well. I've heard so many christians tell me they have tried that then they go ahead and sprout out so many misconceptions about other religions it's not even funny. Things like "Budhhism worships idols and consider Budha a God.." or "Islam teaches hate and war." "Islam teaches that we are unsinfull", "Jews don't belive in Jesus". I could get into a whole list..

I believe in god beacuse I'm a FUCKING IDIOT.

^^^ i know what you mean about the misconceptions, i get them almost every single time i try to talk to someone concerning a religion they don't follow, and about half the time concerning a religion they do follow.