I can't find the thread, but someone was asking about God creating the angels only for worship...I believe he misunderstood that God did not create angels without the ability to choose...but this was different than what we consider to be free will.

Here are some verses on Lucifer in regards to his decision to leave Heaven:

Isaiah Chapter 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation(a mythic mountain of the Babylonians, regarded by them as the seat of the gods

It was situated in the far north, and in Babylonian inscriptions is described as a mountain called Im-Kharasak, "the mighty mountain of Bel, whose head reaches heaven, whose root is the holy deep." In their geography they are said to have identified it with mount El-wend, near Ecbatana.), in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds(The Hebrew so rendered means "a covering," because clouds cover the sky. The word is used as a symbol of the Divine presence, as indicating the splendour of that glory which it conceals (Ex. 16:10; 33:9; Num. 11:25; 12:5; Job 22:14; Ps. 18:11). A "cloud without rain" is a proverbial saying, denoting a man who does not keep his promise (Prov. 16:15; Isa. 18:4; 25:5; Jude 1:12). A cloud is the figure of that which is transitory (Job 30:15; Hos. 6:4). A bright cloud is the symbolical seat of the Divine presence (Ex.29:42, 43; 1 Kings 8:10; 2 Chr. 5:14; Ezek. 43:4), and was called the Shechinah (q.v.). Jehovah came down upon Sinai in a cloud (Ex. 19:9); and the cloud filled the court around the tabernacle in the wilderness so that Moses could not enter it (Ex. 40:34, 35). At the dedication of the temple also the cloud "filled the house of the Lord" (1 Kings 8:10). Thus in like manner when Christ comes the second time he is described as coming "in the clouds" (Matt. 17:5; 24:30; Acts 1:9, 11). False teachers are likened unto clouds carried about with a tempest (2 Pet. 2:17). The infirmities of old age, which come one after another, are compared by Solomon to "clouds returning after the rain" (Eccl. 12:2). The blotting out of sins is like the sudden disappearance of threatening clouds from the sky (Isa. 44:22).

Cloud, the pillar of, was the glory-cloud which indicated God's presence leading the ransomed people through the wilderness (Ex. 13:22; 33:9, 10). This pillar preceded the people as they marched, resting on the ark (Ex. 13:21; 40:36). By night it became a pillar of fire (Num. 9:17-23).

); I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch(a symbol of kings descended from royal ancestors (Ezek. 17:3, 10; Dan. 11:7); of prosperity (Job 8:16); of the Messiah, a branch out of the root of the stem of Jesse (Isa. 11:1), the "beautiful branch" (4:2), a "righteous branch" (Jer. 23:5), "the Branch" (Zech. 3:8; 6:12)

Disciples are branches of the true vine (John 15:5, 6). "The branch of the terrible ones" (Isa. 25:5) is rightly translated in the Revised Version "the song of the terrible ones," i.e., the song of victory shall be brought low by the destruction of Babylon and the return of the Jews from captivity.

The "abominable branch" is a tree on which a malefactor has been hanged (Isa. 14:19). The "highest branch" in Ezek. 17:3 represents Jehoiakim the king.), and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase (contact with a carcass made an Israelite ceremonially unclean, and made whatever he touched also unclean, according to the Mosaic law (Hag. 2:13; compare Num. 19:16, 22; Lev. 11:39) trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

*bounce*

*bounce*

Where's the fucking mod of this forum? Ban this fucking douchebag.

Lucifer is one of the MOST mis-understood characters of the Bible

theu devul is gonna be in hell in the end, and he wants as many people to be there with him, donty lett him drag you down!

quote:Originally posted by mastahboi:

theu devul is gonna be in hell in the end, and he wants as many people to be there with him, donty lett him drag you down!

Cornpuff is going to royally fuck you in the ass the second he finds you. Anyway, I personally think the whole idea of an eternal torture for 80 years worth of anything makes God a little less than forgiving. But, hey, I'm going to Hell anyway for even questioning the Bible, so who gives a damn?

Kosmos, Summary: In the sense of the present world-system, the ethically bad sense of the word, refers to the "order," "arrangement," under which Satan has organized the world of unbelieving mankind upon his cosmic principle of force, greed, selfishness, ambition, and pleasure. Matthew 4:8,9; John 12:31; 14:30; 18:36; Ephesians 2:2; 6:12; 1 John 2:15-17. This world- system is imposing and powerful with armies and fleets; is often outwardly religious, scientific, cultured, and elegant; but, seething with national and commercial rivalries and ambitions, is upheld in any real crisis only by armed force, and is dominated by Satanic principles.

This is the Devils world.

lucifer is god

I agree nex. Lucifer was our creator. The only reason they like to make him seem evil is because they(the xians) want us to go the jehova, meaning that when we die our souls will become food for his angels. Lucifer is the elder god, and the reason the older civilizations were so prosperous is because they were ENCOURAGED by lucifer to grow and be successful.

What god that really loved his people would put them through a dark ages type time? We didn't grow, it was like suspended animation for scientific and technological growth. It was also a much dirtier and less healthy time...



Again, what god would do this to his people? and don't give me, "he's like a good parent" shit, good parents don't take away everything their children have worked and strived for?



[This message has been edited by chaoszero (edited 06-21-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I can't find the thread, but someone was asking about God creating the angels only for worship...I believe he misunderstood that God did not create angels without the ability to choose...but this was different than what we consider to be free will.



If you call 2 choices really having a choice. It was either 1) Worship 2) Go to hell!

WTF? What kind of choice is that?

So in essence, he really did just create them to worship, because if they didn't - they would have to go to hell which is suppose to be worse than death. Sounds like a tyrant to me. Hardly a choice. And the reason he was sent to hell, was because Lucifer had always been God's right-hand man so to speak. And then when Jesus was made, he was told to bow to Jesus, and he would not. Lucifer did not understand why he should bow to Jesus, when Lucifer had been the one who was always closest to god. Since he did not bow, God threw Lucifer into hell like he was yesterday's trash. So much for a friend huh?

Religion is taught such that it makes Lucifer out to be a bad guy, when in fact he wasn't at all. It wasn't until when he was went to hell, away from God's light & grace that made him bad. Hell changed him. And even when he left Hell to go to earth and corrupt man, he said that he he regretted it all, and that he would not have done what he was about to do otherwise (tempt Eve). His logic became changed because god sent him to a place that does that to someone. I am not any worshipper of sorts, but he was not so bad as what media, movies, and church people's interpretations of the bible make him out to be. Now he's bad (though not real), but it wasn't his fault.

Ever read the books Paradise Lost? It's good book by Blake. It cover's the fall of the angels, all the way up to the loss of Eden. Classic book!

quote:Originally posted by Aeon:

If you call 2 choices really having a choice. It was either 1) Worship 2) Go to hell!

WTF? What kind of choice is that?

So in essence, he really did just create them to worship, because if they didn't - they would have to go to hell which is suppose to be worse than death. Sounds like a tyrant to me. Hardly a choice. And the reason he was sent to hell, was because Lucifer had always been God's right-hand man so to speak. And then when Jesus was made, he was told to bow to Jesus, and he would not. Lucifer did not understand why he should bow to Jesus, when Lucifer had been the one who was always closest to god. Since he did not bow, God threw Lucifer into hell like he was yesterday's trash. So much for a friend huh?

Religion is taught such that it makes Lucifer out to be a bad guy, when in fact he wasn't at all. It wasn't until when he was went to hell, away from God's light & grace that made him bad. Hell changed him. And even when he left Hell to go to earth and corrupt man, he said that he he regretted it all, and that he would not have done what he was about to do otherwise (tempt Eve). His logic became changed because god sent him to a place that does that to someone. I am not any worshipper of sorts, but he was not so bad as what media, movies, and church people's interpretations of the bible make him out to be. Now he's bad (though not real), but it wasn't his fault.

Ever read the books Paradise Lost? It's good book by Blake. It cover's the fall of the angels, all the way up to the loss of Eden. Classic book!



I am sorry...I do not want to seem as though I am putting you down, but your understanding of the events which took place leading up to the expulsion of Lucifer to earth, and consequently Hell, is incorrect.

The timeline you are basing your pretenses under is not even accurate.

Lucifer was cast out of heaven LONG before Christ ever came to the earth, so how could Lucifer have been told to bow to Jesus, with an end result of rebellion ?

Lucifer was never told any such thing.

Please read Genesis. It is very clear that Lucifer fell from heaven during the beginning of human creation.

As far as choices are concerned, how could there be more choices than that of good and evil ? Since when has a grey area existed for humans ?

You cannot be "kind of" good, or "kind of" bad...that's like saying you can "kind of" lie...you either do, or you don't. You are either on the side of the Creator (good), or on the side of Lucifer (evil).

Lucifer was once regarded as the most important angel in Heaven. He wasn't always evil...what made him evil was his rebellion against God, and His plan for man.

The Bible clearly states that God is a jealous God...He definitely wants our worship, but most people take this desire out of context.

When people hear the word "worship", they associate it with something negative, such as unwilling submission.

But one way to look at it is as a marriage covenant. If you never spoke to your spouse, and you expected him/her to continue to love you, care for you, provide for you in the ways that you need, what sort of relationship would that be ?

Is not communication necessary for a healthy relationship ? It is not essential to the growth and survivorship of any relationship ?

As an omnipotent being, the only way for us to truly commune with God, the only way for us to truly have a relationship with Him, is through worship. (this is basically all you are doing when you have a relationship with another person...by talking to them, and doing special things for them, you are harboring love, and a healthy relationship)

Another misconception is that there is only one form of worship...praise. Many people don't consider that prayer (which is simply talking to God) is a form of worship. Living your life as closely to the way Christ did is worship. Just loving Him is worship.

It is meant to be intimate...it meant to be spiritual...it is intended to bring us peace and hope.

As for hell making Satan evil, I am going to once again disagree with you on that point.

Hell was created for him, because he chose to rebel against God. He chose separation, and that choice is what made him evil. Hell did nothing to change him...it is merely his dwelling place.

How does the media make Satan out to be bad ? Currently, he is more glorified, than anything.

From our perfumes (called Sinful, and Temptation) to our movies (Devil's Advocate), he is embellished and envied for his clever rebellion against God.

The only problem with this line of thinking is that Satan's realm is not somewhere you would willingly choose to reside in, if you had the chance to visit both Heaven and Hell. And as long as you choose him over God, that is where you will end up.

I can go into this a little more if you'd like...just let me know.

I hope the individual writing the book you recommended is a Christian...otherwise, his opinion of the events in regards to the angels is bogus. The Bible is the only real reference to them, and what occurred.

Yep, I can make up stories, too. I won't because I would hate to interrupt your little game of pretend.

quote:Originally posted by JMcSmoky:

Yep, I can make up stories, too. I won't because I would hate to interrupt your little game of pretend.



Such hostility towards something you claim to not believe in.

Why do you care what I say, if you believe it to be untrue ?

Save your nasty comments for someone else. I don't think I have said anything that should offend you.

If I am crazy, misled, and ignorant, what is it to you ?

Hostility? It was a joke. I thought your post was hilarious! I got a good laugh from it, so I thought I should post something. Sorry, I should've put a little winking smiley http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) at the end.

If you want to believe the bible, that's fine. I know that the bible has some historical merit, but how are you supposed to know what's true and what's not true when a lot of the bible is so outrageous and far fetched?

You don't, you just debate it all your life and die with a negative net contribution to the world. In other words, you read the Bible, you don't understand it, you endevour to understand it rather than admit that it's incomprihensible, and you become a waste of oxygen.

quote:Originally posted by JMcSmoky:

Hostility? It was a joke. I thought your post was hilarious! I got a good laugh from it, so I thought I should post something. Sorry, I should've put a little winking smiley http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) at the end.

If you want to believe the bible, that's fine. I know that the bible has some historical merit, but how are you supposed to know what's true and what's not true when a lot of the bible is so outrageous and far fetched?

Miracles, signs, and wonders ARE far-fetched, and very difficult to believe in, from a modern-day standpoint.

Think of the people back then...these far-fetched occurrances were commonplace and therefor taken for granted.

Can you imagine taking for granted food falling from the sky, intended to prevent starvation while you and your people are in exile from an oppressive government force ? (manna in the desert...the jews fleeing from Egypt)

God says that He will no longer bring signs and miracles, because even when He did, the people did not see rightly that He is the Creator of the universe.

So, most people nowadays believe that if they had some sort of physical proof, that they would be able to accept God as their savior, but it is not likely, since history often repeats itself.

Joke taken...thanks for explaining. *smiles*

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

You don't, you just debate it all your life and die with a negative net contribution to the world. In other words, you read the Bible, you don't understand it, you endevour to understand it rather than admit that it's incomprihensible, and you become a waste of oxygen.



It is NOT incomprehensible to those that seek it with the intention of understanding it, rather than to disprove it.

I have just as many doubts and questions as anyone else about the Bible, and I have read it cover to cover 3 times, and am currently on my fourth go 'round.

Every time I read it, I have more questions, and misunderstandings, but I seek out the answers to those questions, and God reveals His meaning to me, just as He promised He would do.

What purpose would it serve for Him to create a document for us to base our lives on that was incomprehensible ?

He knows us, how we think, and what will reach us...I think the Bible was perfectly designed for the purpose in which it was intended.

I am definitely not a waste of space, and if your sole purpose on this planet is to control your own life and have as much fun as possible before you die, then it is YOU that is a waste of space.

You might as well cease to exist right now...the fact that you are still here is an indication that there is still a purpose for you, greater than you can possibly fathom or anticipate.

My 3 gorgeous children are my positive contribution to this world, to start with...and that's not even bringing my theological beliefs into play.

You are sad and angry, and it would be interesting to hear about your life and how you came to the conclusions that you have.



Adieu...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I am sorry...I do not want to seem as though I am putting you down, but your understanding of the events which took place leading up to the expulsion of Lucifer to earth, and consequently Hell, is incorrect.

The timeline you are basing your pretenses under is not even accurate.

Lucifer was cast out of heaven LONG before Christ ever came to the earth, so how could Lucifer have been told to bow to Jesus, with an end result of rebellion ?

Lucifer was never told any such thing.

Please read Genesis. It is very clear that Lucifer fell from heaven during the beginning of human creation.

As far as choices are concerned, how could there be more choices than that of good and evil ? Since when has a grey area existed for humans ?

You cannot be "kind of" good, or "kind of" bad...that's like saying you can "kind of" lie...you either do, or you don't. You are either on the side of the Creator (good), or on the side of Lucifer (evil).

Lucifer was once regarded as the most important angel in Heaven. He wasn't always evil...what made him evil was his rebellion against God, and His plan for man.

The Bible clearly states that God is a jealous God...He definitely wants our worship, but most people take this desire out of context.

When people hear the word "worship", they associate it with something negative, such as unwilling submission.

But one way to look at it is as a marriage covenant. If you never spoke to your spouse, and you expected him/her to continue to love you, care for you, provide for you in the ways that you need, what sort of relationship would that be ?

Is not communication necessary for a healthy relationship ? It is not essential to the growth and survivorship of any relationship ?

As an omnipotent being, the only way for us to truly commune with God, the only way for us to truly have a relationship with Him, is through worship. (this is basically all you are doing when you have a relationship with another person...by talking to them, and doing special things for them, you are harboring love, and a healthy relationship)

Another misconception is that there is only one form of worship...praise. Many people don't consider that prayer (which is simply talking to God) is a form of worship. Living your life as closely to the way Christ did is worship. Just loving Him is worship.

It is meant to be intimate...it meant to be spiritual...it is intended to bring us peace and hope.

As for hell making Satan evil, I am going to once again disagree with you on that point.

Hell was created for him, because he chose to rebel against God. He chose separation, and that choice is what made him evil. Hell did nothing to change him...it is merely his dwelling place.

How does the media make Satan out to be bad ? Currently, he is more glorified, than anything.

From our perfumes (called Sinful, and Temptation) to our movies (Devil's Advocate), he is embellished and envied for his clever rebellion against God.

The only problem with this line of thinking is that Satan's realm is not somewhere you would willingly choose to reside in, if you had the chance to visit both Heaven and Hell. And as long as you choose him over God, that is where you will end up.

I can go into this a little more if you'd like...just let me know.

I hope the individual writing the book you recommended is a Christian...otherwise, his opinion of the events in regards to the angels is bogus. The Bible is the only real reference to them, and what occurred.

Actually, you are misunderstanding. I know that Jesus came to earth WAY later to save man, and it was after Satan had already came to earth. You are thinking of Jesus in the sense of a physical live human. I am talking about in heaven, Jesus was created before Lucifer fell, and before either of them came to earth (just when man was being created, and I am tlaking abotu Genesis). This was still at the beginning of man when all this happened. This is not when Jesus was walking the earth. And I do not believe hell was created just for Satan. I think it already existed, and Lucifer was exiled there along with all the other angels he brought down with him; Beelzebub, Mammom, and many others. And his plan to corrupt man happened in hell, when Satan (Lucifer in heaven) and his army of fallen angels started their own version of a kingdom in hell and came up with a plan for their next actions, now that they were exiled from heaven. I believe he even had a quote/un-quote speech about..."it is better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" and that he new of God's new creation man, and how he would get revenge by corrupting man too. Lucifer's attitude changed quickly once he fell, not before.

I see you point about Satan also being glorified in the sense of perfumes and what not, although it is rather insignificant such uses of his name.

As for Satan's logic, such as Devil Advocate - it is no doubt that he is a smart fellow. You know that syaing, "the greatest trick the devil ever played, was convincing the world he didn't exist" - that is just an example of his intelligence and manipulative abilities, which I am sure even you believe. Though we all know he is not omni-potent and omniscient.

And as for the comment, there is only 2 choices Good & Evil. No way, of course their is a gray area. What do you think almots all humans fall under? Surely, NOBODY doesn't ever sin, save maybe the Pope. But who knows, none of us hang around him to see it. But, no christian is a perfect one, and you know that. So you are not perfectly good, but not evil either. Some where in between (gray area) according to the bible and sinning. So you are not one or the other, but some where in between. I think you are thinking of to extremes. Either you are like God: incapable of sin and imperfection...or you are like Satan: killing, sinning, blasphemy, etc. But few humans are on the extreme sides. Thus my conclusion of a gray area, and what defines being human!

And about the clarification of worship, I completely understand yoru idea of worship in the sense of a marriage or spouse. Though, you are right - most people think of it in the negative, tyrant sense. But that is because the bible leaves room for people to think so, and through many different things it appears that way. I noticed most christians often fight with themselves about, choice, and pre-destination, things that were made to happen a certain way and nothing could eb done about it.

As for the guy who wrote Paradise Lost, he was christian. He lived and wrote during a time when the (anglo)catholic church was killing all those who would basically, not convert and were of another religion. he was not catholic himself if I recall correctly, but christians were killing christians! Crazy stuff.

[This message has been edited by Aeon (edited 06-23-2004).]

Actually Lucifer was kicked out of heaven because he didn't appreciate Adam. He was to proud to acknowleged god perfect creation.

Its in the The Book of Adam.

I'll find the exact part when I'm home.

The Book of Adam isn't canon. If something is so crazy that even most religious folk won't accept it as true, it's got to be pretty damn crazy.

quote:Originally posted by jimbo_aust:

Actually Lucifer was kicked out of heaven because he didn't appreciate Adam. He was to proud to acknowleged god perfect creation.

Its in the The Book of Adam.

I'll find the exact part when I'm home.





The book of Adam ? What's that ?

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

You don't, you just debate it all your life and die with a negative net contribution to the world. In other words, you read the Bible, you don't understand it, you endevour to understand it rather than admit that it's incomprihensible, and you become a waste of oxygen.



You do NOT become a waste of oxygen if you have saved some whales, learned some language or math, persuaded others to protect the environment, saved a human life, or produced some children along the way.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 06-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

The Book of Adam isn't canon. If something is so crazy that even most religious folk won't accept it as true, it's got to be pretty damn crazy.

*LAUGHS* !!! True...