http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/



Interesting read...

No, not really.

haha yah maybe it works for the christians but honestly who lets the internet or even preachers for that matter dictate how and what you believe.

And here I thought it would be at least a semi-interesting read about what somebody ACTUALLY believed, HOW they came about to believe such a thing, and WHY they believed it. Silly me. Why would somebody create a title of a topic "Do you know what you believe" and actually know what THEY belive?

Sheesh. I'm becoming synical as hell and I don't like that.

i dont believe in the bible even though i claim im a catholic.

After reading the top ten reasons to believe in the christian faith i disagree with the following aspect of it.

#3 The reliability of its book.

Some of the examples it gives do not hold up in my opinion.

They state that the bible can be backed up by archeology. This may be true for the new testement but as far as I know only parts of exodus have clear physical links.

They also credit how it has been acuratly transcribed and tranlated. There is no way to know this because the oldest texts we have probly been transscribed many times by many diferent people, errors are bound to occour.

#5 It's Foundational Claim

The artical staes that "the first christians by politicalor religious dissent." This may be true of the first christians but it is not true of modern christians. Dissent is the reason there are so many diferent factions of christianity today. In churches around the world today issues are spliting people apart. I for one do not want any part of it.

#8 Its Views on Human Achievment

The passage basicaly states that humanity as a whole (more than likley excluding christians) is an excersise in futility. That may be true but I don't believe that any religion can change that.

#9 Impact on society

This section is very westernly biased. It comes close to staing that all good in the world can be traced back to the bible. Most of the world got along fine without it for centuries and achieved marvels. It does not state that from time to time some followers commit horible atrocities in the name of crist(ie the crusades, the treatment of native peoples in residential schools, the violence in Ireland).

#1 Its Offer of Salvation

The article basicly states that no other reliogion is christianity. Through the language used it says that all other religions have no real substance.

The other reasons in the article (with the exception of #7)are dependant on the condition that you are a christian and believe the bible.

But all and all, an interesting read.

Thank you



[This message has been edited by MasterPython (edited 06-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

And here I thought it would be at least a semi-interesting read about what somebody ACTUALLY believed, HOW they came about to believe such a thing, and WHY they believed it. Silly me. Why would somebody create a title of a topic "Do you know what you believe" and actually know what THEY belive?

Sheesh. I'm becoming synical as hell and I don't like that.



I have tried to give my story...to explain how I came to the path I have...

And all I received was taunts, accusations of lying, and incomprehensible dribble.

So, I'll stick to the interesting reading.

If you don't find it interesting, that's too bad for you. *shrugs*

(I am glad I am not among the many that suffer from Tourette's syndrome on this forum. This is the only reasonable conclusion I can come to in regards to the lack of respect, and the over-abundance of profanity I have experienced here...)



Tou·rette's syndrome

A severe neurological disorder characterized by multiple facial and other body tics, usually beginning in childhood or adolescence and often accompanied by grunts and compulsive utterances, as of interjections and obscenities.



(just having a bit of fun at the expense of my adamant counterparts)

*grins*

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 06-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Lucky:

haha yah maybe it works for the christians but honestly who lets the internet or even preachers for that matter dictate how and what you believe.

By that reasoning, why would you trust professor's, doctor's and scientist's to tell you how your little world works, and why you believe what you do ?

Any learned scholar is considered a learned scholar.

Why is it only the preachers and christian theologians are labled as quacks ? What makes their science, and historical evidence, any less provable or acceptable ?

Most of the references given by the pagans, atheists, agnostics, and the like on this forum use the internet for their resources as well. Once again, what is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.

And you call US delusional ?!

Master Python - Thank you for your post. Though you don't agree, you didn't use slander to "disprove" anything you read.

I appreciate that, and just wanted you to know that I will reply to you very soon.

I am walking out the door after a long, hard day at the docks. *laughs*



Ciao...

I like the change in you, Digital_Savior. You went from stating something that someone else said blatantly to just giving us links, You used to never defend yourself, now you do. You are shaping up quite well. I foresee some good, if controversial, posts coming from you in the future.

Do I know what I belive? Yes, without a doubt.

That site, had ALOT of things I disagree with.

The only thing I do agree with is the "Its Power To Change Lives " part. It did for me atleast. It turned me atheist http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Kryolotor:

I like the change in you, Digital_Savior. You went from stating something that someone else said blatantly to just giving us links, You used to never defend yourself, now you do. You are shaping up quite well. I foresee some good, if controversial, posts coming from you in the future.

i agree. <extends an olive branch>

you are a woman, Digital? if so, i'm sorry for being so crass to you earlier. there are a lot of people who come to totse (like any forum) only to troll and fool around. i assumed you were here to post tons of info without actually considering opposing arguments at all, and so i went into overkill mode.

not everyone here is atheist, or vitriolic just for the sake of it, even those you might most suspect http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif)

i hope we can debate evolution vs. creationism in a more orderly and open fashion once more.

maybe instead of starting off by stating one's biased viewpoint, we could ask for people to post their most reliable facts and counter-facts. if we could peacefully share what information or realizations lead to each person's view on the subject, and not try to dissuade each other, i think it would be a much healthier and effective way of examining the merits of our own beliefs. what do you think?

Wow, if only the real world was more like the internet, where everybody is so friendly and forgiving and capible of apologising. The world would be a better place if more people visited Totse.

I don't have tourettes, just alcoholism. I apologize for the venom from my tongue (or fingers, however you interpret these words hitting your mind.) I was just eager to see a post with the title "Do you know what you believe" because it's a question I've posed many a people and the most most of them can do is either simply say "no" or spout of propaganda handed down to them. My trip is encouraging people to think for themselves because far to often (sadly enough) people DON'T know what they believe. People are usually more inclined to know what they do not believe.

I'd personally be interested in hearing what you actually believe (in your own words.)

I had some family issues that prevented me from replying to this...I will do so, in great detail, tomorrow.

Until then, adieu...

quote:

They state that the bible can be backed up by archeology. This may be true for the new testement but as far as I know only parts of exodus have clear physical links.

It seems reasonable to me that the further you go back in time, the harder it is to find this stuff.

quote:They also credit how it has been acuratly transcribed and tranlated. There is no way to know this because the oldest texts we have probly been transscribed many times by many diferent people, errors are bound to occour.

If it was any other book with the Bibles History, I would agree.....But the Bible is a "Supernatural" book. God preserved his Word.

quote:name of crist(ie the crusades, the treatment of native peoples in residential schools, the violence in Ireland).

Ulster and the Crusades were waged in the name of "Land". Crusades were originally waged to get the "Holy Land". Ulster is the correct name of N. Ireland, and the people there arent Irish...theyre Scots. Catholics killed them cause they were "Protestants".

It would appear that believers believe and skeptics don't. I can find nothing convincing in any of the arguments. I do, however, like such claims as 'the Bible is a "Supernatural" book'. I am sure there is lots of evidence for that.

^^^Funniest thing I've read on totse all day.

I find it funny that Sniper Piper has his head shoved that far up his ass.

Honestly, what is more believeable, science or the supernatural? Science gets my vote because you can back it up with evidence.

Sniper Piper fears science because the more science discovers about the universe, the more pointless and godless it seems.

To answer the topical question: Yes, I know what I believe. I believe that there is no purpose to existence...no god to guide us, no god to reward or punish us. It's up to us humans to carry out our own rewards and punishments and to work for our own future. I believe that the only meaning we have in our lives is what we prescribe as a meaning...it can be religion, family, drugs, crime, hate...various other things we have...hell, even delusions can be the meaning in somebody's life. I've yet to set any sort of goal for myself...my meaning at this point is to just relax and enjoy the short time I have before existence is no more for me. I'm loving life.

But I'm scaaaaaaaared.

Although I disagree with most of the information on that site, I do notice some relationships between Buddhism and Christianity. But I especially disagree with this statement:

"If death is the end of everything, then a life filled with suffering isn't fair."

First of all, who said life was fair? Buddhism says that suffering is eternal, and that it arises from human desires. So as long as humans have desires, suffering will exist. The goal of enlightenment is to move above desire, and find peace. But without suffering, enlightenment would not exist!

I guess what I'm saying is that it is pointless to debate whether suffering is fair or unfair, it is a unavoidable fact of human life and will never leave us. So it would be also be pointless to debate that just because there is suffering, there is automaticaly another "perfect life" waiting for us apon death.

"But if the end of this life brings us to the threshold of eternity, then the most fortunate people in the universe are those who discover, through suffering, that this life is not all we have to live for. Those who find themselves and their eternal God through suffering have not wasted their pain."

This statement makes me sad, I cannot explain it anyway else. It seems to encourage not living the life we have now, to put your faith in the "dreamly, perfect afterlife" of heaven. I think one of my greatest problems with Western religion is it's focus on the preservation of the ego-personality, the great desire to live forever, and not accept death and the destruction of the ego it will bring.

"When the mind concerned with life and death passes away, so does life and death."

Western religion is always focused on the "afterlife, the world to come". Buddhism teaches that there is no past, no future, only the Eternal Now. You must live for the moment, find heaven and peace in this very momenton earth, not always looking forward to the future for relief of pain, because it will not come!

I don't think, I've expressed myself clearly, but I've done my best. I hope my point was expressed somewhere in there. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

See now, my problem with having NO hope of life after death is that it is a dismal prospect...

Is it not the actual act of ATTAINMENT of something that makes it so great, as opposed to the actual "thing" you are obtaining ?

If it were EASY to find yourself in Heaven after death, who would really want to achieve it, from a human perspective ?

Ok, tangent again...sorry.

IF there is nothing after this life on earth, then I would rather die now, and not subject myself to the tyranny of the flesh.

The pain, the confusion, the torture, the battles (personal and otherwise)...to not have a reason for all of this....wow. I can't imagine having such a pointless existence. *sighs*

This life is not worth NOTHING. It is not worth the heartache, if it is all for nothing.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

IF there is nothing after this life on earth, then I would rather die now, and not subject myself to the tyranny of the flesh.



Why is it that Christians have such a dismal view of life? It's almost like life is a pain in the ass to live, almost like it is an inconvenience to be alive!

"This life sucks, I can't wait until I'm dead, then I'll be in heaven!"

One of my Chritian friends actually said this, and it distrubed me greatly. I'm often a very unhappy person, due to my struggle with my addiction to drugs and alcohol in the past, which still haunts me today. A day never goes by without the urge to get high and just say "fuck you" to all my problems. But never have I wished to be dead!

quote:

The pain, the confusion, the torture, the battles (personal and otherwise)...to not have a reason for all of this....wow. I can't imagine having such a pointless existence. *sighs*

This life is not worth NOTHING. It is not worth the heartache, if it is all for nothing.

Do you believe that people who do not believe in Christ (or the afterlife in general for that matter) live a pointless existence? No one ever said there must be a reason for pain and suffering, it comes along with being human, just the presence of the human psyche brings it into existence. We will always have wants and needs that will never be satisfied, the trick is to realize these thoughts will never cease, and that you have to just let them go, do not analyze them, just let them go.

Like I said before, you must not expect a better life after this one, the want, the strong desire to life forever creates pain and suffering, in my opinion.

The Law of Causation says that everything is changing and passing away, and so to will the human mind. Nothing escapes it.

Maybe nobody wants to hear my Buddhist view on this, I don't know.

"Let no man be afraid to die, for man likes to sleep all. And death is but the sounder sleep."

"Let no man be afraid to die, for man likes to sleep all. And death is but the sounder sleep."

If death can be felt in any way at all, I hope it just feels like sleep. I love sleeping http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

^what is it to 'feel like sleep'?

from which flows, what is it to 'feel'?

from which flows, what is it to 'what is it'?

and that's it. nothing flows after that.

I don't feel like a sheep. My faith is informed, ever-educating, and fulfilling.

I feel, because I have emotions. Ask God about that..

What is it ? Another question for the Creator.

And nothing is still something....where did the nothing, or the concept thereof, come from ?

i said 'sleep,' not sheep. and i was not communicating with you.

besides, the tangent universe collapsed 991 days ago.

sheep - sleep...my bad.

Why won't you answer the question I asked ? (and you accuse me of dodging ?)

I wasn't being facetious.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

And here I thought it would be at least a semi-interesting read about what somebody ACTUALLY believed, HOW they came about to believe such a thing, and WHY they believed it. Silly me. Why would somebody create a title of a topic "Do you know what you believe" and actually know what THEY belive?

Sheesh. I'm becoming synical as hell and I don't like that.

I am sorry I never replied to this...would you really like to know what I believe, and how I came to believe it ?

Not going to waste my time, otherwise.

;-)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

sheep - sleep...my bad.

Why won't you answer the question I asked ? (and you accuse me of dodging ?)

I wasn't being facetious.

because i missed it, i thought you were being rhetorical. jeez.

so, uh, yeah, the question... which was 'And nothing is still something....where did the nothing, or the concept thereof, come from ?'

obviously it came from nowhere, just like everything else.

do not focus on the word, or the concept, or you miss all the glory of the reality of nothing.

I don't miss the glory, because I know from whence it came...

How can nothing become something ?

it didn't. nothing IS something, but it's ok, because that same something is nothing.

Can you explain that scientifically, please ?

Philosophy is not going to make me not believe in God.

^i could, but i will not.

didn't you profess to believe that the world is about 10,000 years old? unless i'm wrong, you've already shown to my satisfaction that science does not impress you either.

if you will believe the myths in a 5,000 year old book before empirical observation AND intuitive reasoning, i'm not going to waste any more time.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

^i could, but i will not.

didn't you profess to believe that the world is about 10,000 years old? unless i'm wrong, you've already shown to my satisfaction that science does not impress you either.

if you will believe the myths in a 5,000 year old book before empirical observation AND intuitive reasoning, i'm not going to waste any more time.

I never said any such thing. I believe the earth to be between 6-8,000 years old.

Why won't you exlpain it ? (once again, how could I see this as anything besides disdainful "dodging" ?) I honestly would like to see it explained. Perhaps you can enlighten me on a subject I do not know so much about.

"If you don't know, then I'm not going to explain it to you." is NOT a good answer, and certainly doesn't support your seemingly pedantic approach (bass-ackwards, in my opinion) to life.

I was residing under the influence of empirical observation and intuitive reasoning when I came to the astoundingly undeniable truth that there is a God, and the Bible is our handbook on how to live our lives.

So, explain it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, explain it.

What is your proof that the earth is that young? Besides adding up ages in the Bible all of the other "evidence" I have seen is based on the fact that most people don't have the undestanding of science to see how it is untrue. And all of the claims that could be valid are based on twenty or more year old studys using technology that was then in it infancy.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

sheep - sleep...my bad.

Why won't you answer the question I asked ? (and you accuse me of dodging ?)

I wasn't being facetious.

You seem to be avoiding my questions as well. But I can guess what your answer will be anyway, that the Word of God is infallible, etc. That answer doesn't fly in my book. I see futher disscussion in this area is pointless, we will believe what we want to believe, no matter what others say http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

Social Junker, please tell me where I have not answered your questions, and I will try and get to them. As I said, I have much to reply to, and it is a daunting task. Nothing has gone unanswered intentionally.

Much of what I say is researched before posting, so as to avoid err. This takes time, precious time I do not often have. I have two small children, and a full time job. Makes it difficult to study the Hebrew texts, ya know ?

Let me know what you have asked, and I will answer to the best of my ability.

MasterPython, I will reply. *patience is a virtue even YOU can appreciate*

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

i said 'sleep,' not sheep. and i was not communicating with you.

besides, the tangent universe collapsed 991 days ago.

The tangent universe collapsed 996 days, 20 hours, 23 minutes, and 30 seconds ago.

^wow!

wait a minute, dark_magneto... dark? darko?

Christians follow Christianity, not Jesus. They have nothing to do with him. Caveate emptor.

To be a Christian is to attempt to be Christ-like, as in Jesus. We follow his ways, his teachings, and his heart for the people of this earth.

You are mistaken.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

To be a Christian is to attempt to be Christ-like, as in Jesus. We follow his ways, his teachings, and his heart for the people of this earth.

You are mistaken.

You follow the ways of your church, whatever that happens to be, and its teachings, whatever they are. Don't be confused. Christians have robbed Jesus ever since he left this planet. I'm sure most thought they were doing it for him, in his name. When he returns... Well, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

quote:You follow the ways of your church, whatever that happens to be, and its teachings, whatever they are. Don't be confused. Christians have robbed Jesus ever since he left this planet. I'm sure most thought they were doing it for him, in his name. When he returns... Well, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

In that assumption, you err. I don't have a religion, I follow God, and study the Bible. Religion, in my opinion, separates people.

My church is non-denominational, and there is nothing to 'follow'. We meet, we study Hebrew texts, language, customs and culture, in order to better understand the teachings in the Bible. Nothing is added or taken away, and nothing is assumed or taken out of context.

I follow God. I follow the Bible. I follow Christ.

'Christianity' is based on the life of Christ. He specifically instructed that we try and live our lives as he did, blameless...sinless. In servitude of others; selfless. In love, and forgiveness. An example to others...(this is not remotely achievable, but the operative word there is "TRY").

Religion has mutated and distorted Christianity, and thus the purpose of Christ, not the other way around.

Don't generalize, please.

quote:You follow the ways of your church, whatever that happens to be, and its teachings, whatever they are. Don't be confused. Christians have robbed Jesus ever since he left this planet. I'm sure most thought they were doing it for him, in his name. When he returns... Well, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes

<generalisation> And like most people who say this sort of thing, I'm sure that your way is the right way, and OBVIOUSLY, everyone else is going to burn.

</genrelisation>

My apologies for any offence, or stupidity. I suppose it comes down to, Is there a right way, or many ways, or any old way you choose? Personally, I believe there is a Way, as per Jesus, certainly not my way. But, anyway, I don't have it all figured out, and I don't think anyone ever has total-ly understood Jesus' mission, particularly churches or religions, in a corporate sense.

I don't believe that's what he was creating at all.

How great technology is and how far its came , Instead of slamming a door on a coupla mormons all i have to d is press a button,

but I miss the physical contact I miss beating a coupla people bigger than me and not only that, I get away with it, because they forgive me.

quote:Originally posted by Pow r T och:

My apologies for any offence, or stupidity. I suppose it comes down to, Is there a right way, or many ways, or any old way you choose? Personally, I believe there is a Way, as per Jesus, certainly not my way. But, anyway, I don't have it all figured out, and I don't think anyone ever has total-ly understood Jesus' mission, particularly churches or religions, in a corporate sense.

I don't believe that's what he was creating at all.



Yeah, no worries, and I agree very much. After 2000 years, I think that our understanding of the Way hasn't imporved all that much.

Jesus said "Follow me", Paul said "Follow him", the church should be saying "Here we are together, trying to follow him".

jesus was god. spiritually, he followed only his own nature. when he says to follow him, maybe what he means is

'now, think critically about the following paradox. really use your brains, that's why i gave 'em to you. in order to gain entry into heaven you must do as i do. follow my example. watch closely what i do... ready? here i go... bye.'

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

jesus was god. spiritually, he followed only his own nature. when he says to follow him, maybe what he means is

'now, think critically about the following paradox. really use your brains, that's why i gave 'em to you. in order to gain entry into heaven you must do as i do. follow my example. watch closely what i do... ready? here i go... bye.'

Man, that is sooo close...

what? you want me to spell it out? of course it's close, you've got to leave something for the imagination, or you give up everything.