Hello fellow Christians reading this topic -

As I am aware, Catholicism is the complete opposite of Christianity. Every sacrament Catholic people are required is blasphemous towards Biblical teaching. Not to mention instances of "idolatry" rampant along Church walls with Mary statutes.

Is the Roman Catholic Church really the "Whore of Babylon" depicted in the Book of Revelation? Also, isn't worshipping Virgin Mary by praying the rosary(Catholic tradition) considered praying to two supreme beings?

What about these three secrets Fatima gave to those three Portuguese children in the early 1900s? Were they even real?

I was actually gonna start a topic just like this!

Catholics arent "Christians".

The Catholic Church is a Cult that grew big by killing its competion. The sad thing is that they misrepresent Christianity, every time a Jew thinks of Christians they think Catholic, same thing for everybody else.

I dont rely on Chick for my info, but he did make a tract about this topic....

Are Roman Catholics Christians? (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp)



[This message has been edited by Sniper Piper (edited 07-07-2004).]

I thought that "Christians" were a bunch of Blasphomer's who broke off from the Catholic Church to start some little cult called the Lutherans, and there have been many more splits since that time.

Global evangelism is not only the crux of Christianity in every denomination, as per the words of Jesus Christ himself, but it is also the very definition of the word 'catholic.' Not to mention that, until the sixteenth century, Catholicism was the only form of Christianity since Jesus walked the earth.

Your theory concerning the fallible relationship between Catholicism and Christianity only applies to the bastard modernized lunar New Age humanistic quasi-Buddhist Christianity that has developed in the unconscious of the Kali Yuga populace in the past few decades.

In response to Master Python -

Christians were not blasphemers, they are the true holders of the word of God. They kept the word of God by turning to the central authority - the Bible - for all matters. Unfortunately, Tyrant, I am referring to Roman Catholicism here. Roman Catholicism was invented by Emperor Constantine in the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Didn't Jesus Christ walk the earth 270 years before? Was not Emperor Constantine's original plot to keep people under the Roman Empire in check by issuing an appealing religion by using Christ as a blanket to masquerade pagan beliefs?

I have come to my conclusion, in my opinion, as a result of research, that Roman Catholicism is an infringement on Christianity.

Want to know an interesting fact? Remember when Rome instituted a project known as "Index of the Forbidden Books"? When the Bible was put into that section, the bubonic plague that had devastated Europe occirred. Coincidence?

<b>Not to mention that, until the sixteenth century, Catholicism was the only form of Christianity since Jesus walked the earth.</b> - Tyrant

Catholicism, yes, is a sect of Christianity. So is Lutheranism, Baptism, Anabaptism, etc. Despite it being a sect, the true Christians are the ones who based their faith and hope on Jesus Christ - not by some sacraments, or as Martin Luther called them, "works" that the Pope claims is a path to heavan.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Not to mention that, until the sixteenth century, Catholicism was the only form of Christianity since Jesus walked the earth.



Catholics didnt show up until 300yrs after the book of Acts. There were small groups of Christians killed by the Romans under Nero, who was a Bagpiper also, these Christians arent claimed by ANY denomination officially. If they were "Catholics" they didnt have a Pope!

Also, Catholic means simply "Universal"

Pot calling the kettle black is see? Hypocrisay is a synonym for christianity it sure as hell seems.

I'm a non christian who just totally posted in your thread.

MMMMMMM OnSter KILL ill ill il

Catholics didnt show up until 300yrs after the book of Acts. There were small groups of Christians killed by the Romans under Nero, who was a Bagpiper also, these Christians arent claimed by ANY denomination officially. If they were "Catholics" they didnt have a Pope!

No, they weren't titled Catholics, but their traditions - born from pagan rites as they were - still existed effectively in practice.

Also, Catholic means simply "Universal"

Implying that the church was intended to be the religion of the world... ergo, 'global evangelism'.

hey tyrant, the coptic church is just as old as the catholic church. Peter was the first pope. chick is an uneducated bastard, becuase almost all of the holidays of christianity are just bastardized "pagan" holidays.

Ledd - "As I am aware, Catholicism is the complete opposite of christianity." that's a pretty broad and presumptious statement, don't you think. last time i checked, most christians would say that the basics of being a christian are encompassed in john 3:16 (for god so loved the world, yaddi yaddi yah). in that case, catholics are just as christian as any other denomination. Mary is not worshipped im sorry. lets examine the catholic prayer for mary....

"hail mary, mother of grace" - hi marry, you were jesus' mother.

"the lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus" - You are blessed because you were the mother of Jesus, the savior. you are revered among women, for you were the one chosen to mother jesus.

"holy mary, mother of god" - mary you are holy, you mothered jesus

"pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" - pray for our salvation, you are an intermediary to god.

"amen" - let it be



now what is so blasphemous about that???

how is baptism blasphemous according to the bible?

How is communion blasphemous to the bible? (he broke the bread, "this is my body eat it and you shall be saved", he poured the wine, "drink this and you shall be saved")

how is confirmation blasphemous to the bible? it is simply one asseting that he or she is truly read to accept their catholic faith.

those are the only one's "required" and that's not even true. You could attend catholic mass on a regular basis, recieve communion on your own accord, and everything without actually going through the rituals.

transubstantiation is an archaic belief that only high ranking vatican still believe, in the catechism it says (paraphrased) that the transformation happens in the recievers heart, it's not a physical change. That's like saying that christians follow the ancient law of executing children who disobey their parents, and thats in the bible.



quote:Originally posted by Ledd:

In response to Master Python -

Want to know an interesting fact? Remember when Rome instituted a project known as "Index of the Forbidden Books"? When the Bible was put into that section, the bubonic plague that had devastated Europe occirred. Coincidence?

are you seriously proposing that God punished thousands upon thousands of people to death because of some stupid censor law passed by the church??? are you retarded? your like one of those idiots who think god sent AIDS to punish the "EVIL SODOMIZERS", those same people have said that god also sent SARS, did asians anger him too? your seriously fucked up in the head if you think that is more than coincidence.

As far as Babylon goes, Babylon is Babylon, mon, Iraq. Why do you think Bush invaded Iraq? Terrorism? Yeah, right. Oil, or revenge? Not likely. Bush, as a Christian, saw it as his duty to speed the Apocalypse and the invasion of Iraq sets the stage, for the Imman Madhi and his religion, apparently some kind of demon worship, but who knows. You might do a search on the Madhi but I've noticed since the war many of those sites have disappeared; a coincidence, I'm sure. But the beliefs of those who are expecting the Madhi are a mirror image of the events in the book of the revelation. But that's another subject. A Christian is a Christian and that includes Catholics.

you've been misinformed. Catholicism is christianity and is biblicaly based. And we don't worship mary. or aren't supposed to.

Here are some links cuz i don't feel much like arguing so i won't.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

go to the bottom of the page

http://www.catholic.com/

The library thing on the side

and as for jack chick http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p5.asp

I can agree that Catholicism, from a Protestant perspective, certainly appears wacked, but my question to you protestants is:

Will Catholics be in hell?

[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-04-2004).]

If Christianity were true, then dozens of people would be going to hell every minute of the day. Those evil Catholics will certainly pay for their devotion!

quote:Originally posted by Mike Dogg:

If Christianity were true, then dozens of people would be going to hell every minute of the day. Those evil Catholics will certainly pay for their devotion!



yeah, they be sent to heaven for their devotion of jesus numbnuts. What are you implying?

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

hey tyrant, the coptic church is just as old as the catholic church. Peter was the first pope. chick is an uneducated bastard, becuase almost all of the holidays of christianity are just bastardized "pagan" holidays.

Ledd - "As I am aware, Catholicism is the complete opposite of christianity." that's a pretty broad and presumptious statement, don't you think. last time i checked, most christians would say that the basics of being a christian are encompassed in john 3:16 (for god so loved the world, yaddi yaddi yah). in that case, catholics are just as christian as any other denomination. Mary is not worshipped im sorry. lets examine the catholic prayer for mary....

"hail mary, mother of grace" - hi marry, you were jesus' mother.

"the lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus" - You are blessed because you were the mother of Jesus, the savior. you are revered among women, for you were the one chosen to mother jesus.

"holy mary, mother of god" - mary you are holy, you mothered jesus

"pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" - pray for our salvation, you are an intermediary to god.

"amen" - let it be



now what is so blasphemous about that???

how is baptism blasphemous according to the bible?

How is communion blasphemous to the bible? (he broke the bread, "this is my body eat it and you shall be saved", he poured the wine, "drink this and you shall be saved")

how is confirmation blasphemous to the bible? it is simply one asseting that he or she is truly read to accept their catholic faith.

those are the only one's "required" and that's not even true. You could attend catholic mass on a regular basis, recieve communion on your own accord, and everything without actually going through the rituals.

transubstantiation is an archaic belief that only high ranking vatican still believe, in the catechism it says (paraphrased) that the transformation happens in the recievers heart, it's not a physical change. That's like saying that christians follow the ancient law of executing children who disobey their parents, and thats in the bible.



are you seriously proposing that God punished thousands upon thousands of people to death because of some stupid censor law passed by the church??? are you retarded? your like one of those idiots who think god sent AIDS to punish the "EVIL SODOMIZERS", those same people have said that god also sent SARS, did asians anger him too? your seriously fucked up in the head if you think that is more than coincidence.

what is blasphemous about that. Saying marry is or was holy is blasphemous.she was a significant or special women but not holy. God is the only holy one.she played a signficant part in gods plan but that was it. not holy.

quote:Originally posted by Auron547:

what is blasphemous about that. Saying marry is or was holy is blasphemous.she was a significant or special women but not holy. God is the only holy one.she played a signficant part in gods plan but that was it. not holy.



ok in your opinion, I however believe that giving birth to God makes you pretty damn holy.

hate to go dictionary on you but....

1.Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred. (Mary is associated with divine power, she gave birth to God).

2. Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book. (Mary is worthy of veneration, not worship, but reverence.)

3. Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person. (Mary lived according to a strict moral religious system)

4. Regarded as deserving special respect or reverence: (I would think that giving birth to Jesus is deserving of special respect and reverance.)

The way you look at it, we shouldn't call the bible, THE HOLY BOOK, because then we are blaspheming by calling something other than God holy.

Besides none of it really matters, Mary didn't give a virgin birth, or the idea behind it is very flawed.

I am sorry, but Mary deserves NOTHING from us. Her reward was waiting for her in Heaven. She doesn't hear our prayers (no matter how many times they are repeated), or present them to Jesus for action.

Her role ended once she gave birth. I doubt she had anything to do with the actual rearing of Christ (I don't mean bathing, feeding, and the like). The kid was in the temple teaching at the age if 12, I believe. He was divine, and she was simply the vessel that brought him into the world.

She was blessed, as the Bible teaches us, but that is the extent of her importance to us, in the here and now.

Would you like some scripture supporting this ?

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

I can agree that Catholicism, from a Protestant perspective, certainly appears wacked, but my question to you protestants is:

Will Catholics be in hell?

[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-04-2004).]



The one's that do not accept Christ as their savior will.

I don't believe that their misconceptions about the will of God prevents them from going to Heaven, but I do believe that the misguidance that is perpetuated can prevent someone from accepting Christ as savior, which in turn sends them to hell.

quote:Originally posted by Mike Dogg:

If Christianity were true, then dozens of people would be going to hell every minute of the day. Those evil Catholics will certainly pay for their devotion!

Sadly, this is more true than you know.

Catholics dont worship Mary. They give her respect. I'm not sure that I see anything wrong with this.

edit: Well then there are many christian sects, each teaching something different. What does that mean--that there are different requirements for heaven? I doubt that--the only requirement is the belief in God. So no matter what if you're "christian" or catholic, heaven is possible.

[This message has been edited by eminh3m (edited 08-06-2004).]

To pray to her is to worship her. To have such reverence, to see her as a vessel of hope, is idolatry.

She was a human, just like you and me. She performed no miracles, she sacrificed nothing. She was merely the carrier of Jesus, whom was placed in her whom.

The only entity that deserves our worhsip (prayer, praise, honor, reverence) is GOD.

We (Christians) don't pray to Jesus, though he IS a part of the trinity. We don't pray to the Holy Spirit, either.

It is God who created all, it is He who answers prayer. Only He deserves these things from us.

Mary couldn't, and SHOULDN'T, hold a candle to the omnipotence of God.

quote:Originally posted by Sniper Piper:

I was actually gonna start a topic just like this!

Catholics arent "Christians".

The Catholic Church is a Cult that grew big by killing its competion. The sad thing is that they misrepresent Christianity, every time a Jew thinks of Christians they think Catholic, same thing for everybody else.

I dont rely on Chick for my info, but he did make a tract about this topic....

Are Roman Catholics Christians? (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp)



[This message has been edited by Sniper Piper (edited 07-07-2004).]

Catholicism was founded by the apostles after the ddeath of jesus and is the oldest christian religion. all other christian relgions have branched out of catholicism when people with thier personal beliefs decide to start thier own religion when they have spiritual beliefs that differ that of the catholics

quote:Originally posted by Pow r T och:

As far as Babylon goes, Babylon is Babylon, mon, Iraq. Why do you think Bush invaded Iraq? Terrorism? Yeah, right. Oil, or revenge? Not likely. Bush, as a Christian, saw it as his duty to speed the Apocalypse and the invasion of Iraq sets the stage, for the Imman Madhi and his religion, apparently some kind of demon worship, but who knows. You might do a search on the Madhi but I've noticed since the war many of those sites have disappeared; a coincidence, I'm sure. But the beliefs of those who are expecting the Madhi are a mirror image of the events in the book of the revelation. But that's another subject. A Christian is a Christian and that includes Catholics.

That is assuming MUCH about Bush, and his intentions. I don't know how you could possibly know that. *laughs* And I don't agree, for MANY reasons.

Catholics are people who follow the rules and regulations set forth by the Catholic Church. A Christian is someone that accepts Christ as their savior, and looks to NO ONE ELSE besides God for redemption.

So, it is possible to be a Catholic Christian, but not likely. I have MANY reasons for believing this, and have posted them elsewhere.

quote :To pray to her is to worship her. To have such reverence, to see her as a vessel of hope, is idolatry.

You are correct when you say that Mary should not be worshipped.

However, you state that: We (Christians) don't pray to Jesus, though he IS a part of the trinity. We don't pray to the Holy Spirit, either.

Which part of the "christian" sect are you? I've been to different churches and many seem to place emphasis on Jesus. This is perhaps Jesus is more understandable (he was human in a sense).

[This message has been edited by eminh3m (edited 08-06-2004).]

Quote: Catholics are people who follow the rules and regulations set forth by the Catholic Church. A Christian is someone that accepts Christ as their savior, and looks to NO ONE ELSE besides God for redemption.

Well, belief in God as the savior is what defines Christianity (as a whole) from any other religion. So in that sense, a christian or baptist, etc would be considered chrisitan, correct or no?

[This message has been edited by eminh3m (edited 08-06-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[B] That is assuming MUCH about Bush, and his intentions. I don't know how you could possibly know that. *laughs* And I don't agree, for MANY reasons.

B]

I'm kidding, I doubt Bush can think for himself let alone... Who knows, it's all speculation but for a thousand years the Catholic Church was the only church, unless your willing to admit heretics and now you can't judge a person by what church they go to, maybe they don't go to church, wouldn't be caught dead in one, myself.

quote:Originally posted by SkinEatingClown:

Catholicism was founded by the apostles after the ddeath of jesus and is the oldest christian religion. all other christian relgions have branched out of catholicism when people with thier personal beliefs decide to start thier own religion when they have spiritual beliefs that differ that of the catholics

B][/QUOTE]

I'm kidding, I doubt Bush can think for himself let alone... Who knows, it's all speculation but for a thousand years the Catholic Church was the only church, unless your willing to admit heretics and now you can't judge a person by what church they go to, maybe they don't go to church, wouldn't be caught dead in one, myself.

[/B][/QUOTE]

EHH EHHH EHH your both wrong. That is sad misinformation. As for organized churches, look into the coptic church it is nearly as old, so your wrong on that point. The 12 Apostles did not start the catholic church buddy, they were dead before it really came into play.

Original christians were Jews who followed "the way". It was just being jewish, as in following the tanakh and everything, but you believed that the messiah was jesus, it was just an extra belief (albeit an important one) just tacked on to your judaism.

I would give Paul (note that he was not an Apostle) the credit for the catholic church.

The catholic church came after the gospels, and the last gospels were written 200 plus years after jesus' death.

So, your wrong.

catholics pray to Mary not in the sense we ask her to help us, but for her to pray for us.

I'm afraid Catholics, despite what Mr. Jack Chick said, do not worship Mary. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Zman (edited 08-06-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by eminh3m:

quote :To pray to her is to worship her. To have such reverence, to see her as a vessel of hope, is idolatry.

You are correct when you say that Mary should not be worshipped.

However, you state that: We (Christians) don't pray to Jesus, though he IS a part of the trinity. We don't pray to the Holy Spirit, either.

Which part of the "christian" sect are you? I've been to different churches and many seem to place emphasis on Jesus. This is perhaps Jesus is more understandable (he was human in a sense).

[This message has been edited by eminh3m (edited 08-06-2004).]

I am a non-denominational Christian.

I don't ever pray, "Dear Jesus, I have had a bad day. Make me whole again !" I say "Lord", or "God".

Jesus' function was to redeem us...to offer salvation to those that would accept it.

I do not believe it is he that we ought to pray to.

I suppose that is as hard to explain as it is to understand...*shrugs* I could be wrong, but I haven't read a scripture that indicates I should pray to Jesus.

The only exception would be the Salvation Prayer...when you ask Jesus into your heart.

quote:Originally posted by eminh3m:

Quote: Catholics are people who follow the rules and regulations set forth by the Catholic Church. A Christian is someone that accepts Christ as their savior, and looks to NO ONE ELSE besides God for redemption.

Well, belief in God as the savior is what defines Christianity (as a whole) from any other religion. So in that sense, a christian or baptist, etc would be considered chrisitan, correct or no?

[This message has been edited by eminh3m (edited 08-06-2004).]

No matter what you title yourself (baptist, Catholic, whatever) makes little difference to God. He is only concerned about the condition of your heart.

This is why I do not view true Christianity as a religion, because in essence the meaning of "Christian" is to be "like Christ". It has nothing to do with the rules and regulations set forth by any church, nor the laws given in the Bible.

We obey the laws in the Bible because God asks us to, for our own good (spiritually and physically).

So, yes...you could be a part of ANY religion you wish. That is not what redeems you, or "saves" you from Hell. It is the knowledge that there is one living God, and acceptance of Him as your savior that redeems.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

catholics pray to Mary not in the sense we ask her to help us, but for her to pray for us.

I'm afraid Catholics, despite what Mr. Jack Chick said, do not worship Mary. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Zman (edited 08-06-2004).]

Uhhh...that would be assistance, no ? "Please ask God to help me...forgive me...bless me." Why would you need to ask HER ? God is not so unapproachable. He has made you a heavenly being, by giving you a soul.

If you are truly saved, you are a new creature in Christ, which means you have full access to God.

To pray to ANYONE else is heresy, if you are going by the King James Bible (and any derivitive thereafter).

I don't know who Jack Chick is, and I suspect you only found out about him since reading recent posts here on Totse.

So, if you are insinuating that my belief system is based on the likes of fictional characters in comic books, you are sorely mistaken.

I have done extensive studies on the Catholic Church, and have even taken a voyage to Rome to see the Vatican.

The prayer room alone, completely constructed of pure gold, was enough to make my stomach curdle.

Was Jesus not born to humble beginnings ? Did he not reject the riches of this world, in order to teach us about our riches in Heaven ?

What good is a GOLD room ? Ridiculous.

You are still misunderstanding the purpose of prayer.

When you communicate with your spouse, you are deepening the relationship. You are showing that you care, that you respect them.

This is what prayer is to God. It's not just asking for things...it is for laying down your concerns, your fears, your hopes, and your aspirations. It is to tell Him about your day. It is to make Him your confidante.

This is fellowship, which is a form of worship. Just as praise is worship, so is prayer.

Why would you want to give to Mary what is rightfully God's ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-07-2004).]

Originally by digitalsavior: This is what prayer is to God. It's not just asking for things...it is for laying down your concerns, your fears, your hopes, and your aspirations. It is to tell Him about your day. It is to make Him your confidante



---------------------------------------

Word.

When i used to pray alot, like when i was younger, i always made the sign of the cross, then just started having a one sided conversation with god. I just talked to him.

I don't pray anymore. It's sad.

I agree that Mary shouldnt be prayed to, but, I believe Jesus said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I may be wrong, inform me if I am.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't know who Jack Chick is, and I suspect you only found out about him since reading recent posts here on Totse.



He is a Cartoonist who tried to convert children by telling them they will go to Hell for things like celebrating halloween, being Catholic and that it is adultery for even looking at a member of the oposite sex. He makes litte comics that are given away and left out for people to find. If anyone uses his work in parody he has his lawers threatens to not only sue them but to rune thier lives.



[This message has been edited by MasterPython (edited 08-07-2004).]

when you pray to Mary and ask her to pray for you it's like me asking you to pray for me.

i pray to God. I know He's not unapproachable. Non-Catholics have this idea we don't pray to God and we do. The entire Mass is a prayer. The Rosary is a prayer

I found out about Jack Chick because my dad has a bunch of his tracts, including anti-catholic ones.

I'm happy that you've done extensive studies on the Catholic Church. How exactly did you study it? What did you study?

Regardless of the opulence of the Vatican, if Catholicism is theologically sound then you have an obligation to be in the Church.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:



Regardless of the opulence of the Vatican, if Catholicism is theologically sound then you have an obligation to be in the Church.



no you don't. And that's my biggest problem with catholicism, i wish i could remember the latine name. But basically in the mid-90's the pope issued a doctrine that pretty much said, "all non-catholic souls are in dire peril". Meaning all non-catholics are pretty much going to hell. This doctrine goes completely against the churches seeking of ecumenism.

not to mention a doctrine basically stating that even debate of womens roles in the eucharist is an excommunicable act.

My religion teacher told me this stuff in private one day after class. We had like an hour long discussion. It got me out of wellness class. I believe this guy, easily my favorite teacher of all time, he even pulled a stint in a seminary, extrememly knowledgable. Technically, and it has happened elsewhere, he could have been fired for telling me that stuff. When the school year rolls around and I can talk to him again, i'll have to crazy shit to post, and then i'll be able to give you the official latin names and whatnot.

yes you do have an obligation to be in God's established Church...If you can be in it and refuse it then yes you are in peril...

That doctrine has been around since the early church...

But are you thinking of Orientale Lumen?

The opulence of the Vatican doesn't change it being God's sanctioned Church...

Where the Jewish priests before Christ looked down upon and left because they where well off? No, Judiasm was the one way and through one channel.

I'd agree Paul was responsible for the Catholic Church, but I don't believe the apostles left behind anything other than what they wrote, certainly no church or anything called Christianity. The very word is derived from a Roman insult, they would never have applied it to themselves. As Acts says, they were called that. Anywise, the apostles were horribly inept. The faith lies buried with the heretics.

quote:Originally posted by Pow r T och:

I'd agree Paul was responsible for the Catholic Church, but I don't believe the apostles left behind anything other than what they wrote, certainly no church or anything called Christianity. The very word is derived from a Roman insult, they would never have applied it to themselves. As Acts says, they were called that. Anywise, the apostles were horribly inept. The faith lies buried with the heretics.



By burried with the heretics, I assume you mean the other christian groups that were stamped out by the catholics?

Like the whole gnostic type thing.

Could you extrapolate? its interesting

quote:Originally posted by Pow r T och:

I'd agree Paul was responsible for the Catholic Church, but I don't believe the apostles left behind anything other than what they wrote, certainly no church or anything called Christianity. The very word is derived from a Roman insult, they would never have applied it to themselves. As Acts says, they were called that. Anywise, the apostles were horribly inept. The faith lies buried with the heretics.



The 12 Apostles never wrote any books.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

yes you do have an obligation to be in God's established Church...If you can be in it and refuse it then yes you are in peril...

That doctrine has been around since the early church...

But are you thinking of Orientale Lumen?

The opulence of the Vatican doesn't change it being God's sanctioned Church...

Where the Jewish priests before Christ looked down upon and left because they where well off? No, Judiasm was the one way and through one channel.



The church is God's established church because they say it is. They have no proof.

I'm not debunking Catholic faith because of the money, Digital Savior was the one who made the comment.

I'd say a better reason would be child-molesting priests (not a good reason at all, but to me is just as bad as the opulence).

The Catholic church as you know it didn't come about until a few centuries after Christ. Like I've explained many times, it was simply called "the way", there was no Catholic church.

The mass as you know it is nothing like what jesus did. He basically had fat barbecues with people. The mass as you know it is 100 times closer to a traditional pagan ceremony than what jesus did. I give credit to many progressive christian churches for really simplifying the celebration more into what jesus did.

If I were really into christianity, Jesus would be my authority. Jesus didn't start the Catholic church, therefore it is no more valid than any other denomination. I'm much more down with doing what jesus did than following some ancient hierarchy of greed and power known as the Vatican. The Catholic church is the people, and they should not be goverend as they are by the hierarchy.

Jesus was extremely progressive in his social views. He basically kicked it with women, prostitutes, tax collectors, the diseased, etc. The dispised and Marginalized. The Catholic church does the opposite, Gays? NO. I think jesus would have been cool with gays, and it is not unlikely that there were a few that travelled with him. Women? NO. The Catholic church has systematically suppressed any progressive movement for women within the church.



Catholics are supposed to be more historically contextual people than alot of other christians, congrats on making them seem as bad as the fundamentalists. Way to go on making a few more people hate the church. Great job on supporting the Churches ignorant doctrine. Your simply affirming all the negative points of the church.



You've done them a real favor Zman.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:



By burried with the heretics, I assume you mean the other christian groups that were stamped out by the catholics?

Like the whole gnostic type thing.

Could you extrapolate? its interesting

Certain Gnostic groups, yes, but all throughout history there's been an underground remnant of the Way, almost as if the Spirit had to go from place to place to protect its viability, you know what I mean, it's not going to find an outlet in mainstream churches, i.e.: the spirit of Antichrist is anti-against and Christ-the anointed, meaning not only Jesus but all those imbued with the spirit, I'd say Christianity is the apostasy although not that which is to come but it will be included therein since they have no discernment of these things, they fear them and kill them.

One could mention mention the Cathars; though little is known about them, judging from their beliefs and initiatory rites it would seem their treasure was spiritual rather than earthly, and their connection with the Grail legend is telling. Of course, they were slaughtered for what they believed.



[This message has been edited by Pow r T och (edited 08-07-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Originally by digitalsavior: This is what prayer is to God. It's not just asking for things...it is for laying down your concerns, your fears, your hopes, and your aspirations. It is to tell Him about your day. It is to make Him your confidante



And I'll bet God loved those times with you...when you were intimate with Him.

Why don't you pray anymore ?

quote:Originally posted by paintballa:

I agree that Mary shouldnt be prayed to, but, I believe Jesus said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I may be wrong, inform me if I am.

Are you speaking to me ?

If so, how am I judging ?

This is what the word of God says. It is God who is the Judge of these things, not me.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

when you pray to Mary and ask her to pray for you it's like me asking you to pray for me.

i pray to God. I know He's not unapproachable. Non-Catholics have this idea we don't pray to God and we do. The entire Mass is a prayer. The Rosary is a prayer

I found out about Jack Chick because my dad has a bunch of his tracts, including anti-catholic ones.

I'm happy that you've done extensive studies on the Catholic Church. How exactly did you study it? What did you study?

Regardless of the opulence of the Vatican, if Catholicism is theologically sound then you have an obligation to be in the Church.

Except SHE IS DEAD. Her soul is in Heaven, just like all of the other people that have died a "Christian".

If my mother died, knowing that she has spent her life in the servitude of God, I would NEVER pray to her. I would pray to God.

Ther is NOTHING BIBLICAL supporting the necessity for prayer to Mary. How can you justify this blatant disregard for the word of God ? Because you have allowed yourself to believe it ? Please, TRY and seek truth here.

I was never under the assumption that Catholics don't pray to God. At every televised mass, it is God to whom the Pope speaks. I do not believe I ever said this, either. What I did say, is that it is not necessary to pray to Mary, as it accomplishes nothing. You are pretty much praying to thin air, and if I were you, I'd be PISSED that I had been misled into thinking that this is God's will. It keeps you from your rightful relationship with God. Clever of the devil to come up with this one !

Catholicism is not theologically sound, as evidenced by the atrocities committed by the church. Do you know nothing of the history of the denomination in which you wholeheartedly place your faith ?

To say, "Yes Jesus lived, died, and rose again" is not ENOUGH. Shall I tell you in great detail what God's desire for you as a Christian is ?

It certainly has NOTHING to do with the petty laws, regulations, and traditions of the Catholic church.

I don't believe that the faith and practices of Catholic churches is separate from the Vatican, as the Pope has control over all the churches. What he says is LAW for the church as a whole.

So, if the Vatican does not base it's values (opulance) on the teachings of Jesus, and the desires of God, then how can any of them claim this ?

My studies have been extensive, as I have said. I have spent much time researching all avenues (books, internet, personal experience) of knowledge in regards to Catholicism. If you'd like specifics, I can provide them, but I will be forced to ask the same of you, since it seems that you don't even understand your own faith.

somebody earlier went through the catholics prayer to mary and asked, "How is this blasphemous?" Well, this is how.

john 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me"

you can take this to either mean you have to pray to jesus for your prayers to be heard before God, or that Jesus is the means by which sins are eradicated. I tend to agree with the last. None-the-less, asking mary or a priest for forgiveness is not going through Christ Jesus.

Sorry, but that seems a little blasphemous to me. to put god-like attributes on a human no matter how holy and revered.

something real quick. I don't believe the catholics are correct in much of anything, but as for their prayer room... well, when God gave the plans for his temple, there was much gold.

Only reason I say this, is I don't want catholics to bring this up and take away from the things being said. I'd rather a fellow christian say it. Anyway, interesting reads in here.

what did I do wrong? state what the Church teaches? Yeah that's pretty bad, shame on me.

I don't disregard the word of God. Is it a big deal to ask Mary or anyone else in heaven to pray for you? Where does the Bible say not to?

It may not be necessary to pray to Mary but it isn't wrong.

And, Tthe atrocities of the Church have nothing to do with it's theology.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

what did I do wrong? state what the Church teaches? Yeah that's pretty bad, shame on me.

I don't disregard the word of God. Is it a big deal to ask Mary or anyone else in heaven to pray for you? Where does the Bible say not to?

It may not be necessary to pray to Mary but it isn't wrong.

And, Tthe atrocities of the Church have nothing to do with it's theology.

I believe it was posted already: john 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me"

THAT'S WHY PRAYING TO MARY IS WRONG.

You ought not pray to ANYONE other than God.

What you are "doing wrong" (since this is the terminology you have chosen, I will stick with it) is misleading people into thinking incorrectly about God, and His purpose.

His laws were specific. The commandments were simple.

I think the verse given above is perfectly clear...we are not to pray to anyone else except God.

That makes praying to Mary wrong.

This makes praying to patron saints wrong, too.

It IS a big deal to ask souls departed to pray for you for two reasons: God says not to, and they can't hear you.

The atrocities committed by the Catholic Church are a direct representation of their greed, pride, and deceit.

Please tell me what YOU think the theology of the Catholic Church is.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Right, no one gets to the Father but through Jesus. So asking Mary to pray for you is contradictory to that how? Since it is exactly the same as asking someone on Earth to pray for you, except they are dead. Now, where did you get the idea that souls departed can't hear you?

And the atrocities committed by the Church are a representation of their greed, not their teachings.

I think that the this is just all inter-denominational bickering. Would you honestly say that praying to mary is a damnable offense Digital Savior? I would assume not, so don't bugger the kid about it, he obviously has strong faith in Jesus, and that's what matters.

thank you

The divisions between catholic and protestent doctrine are, unfortuently, more than interdenominational bickering. Its a much more serious issue than the splits in most of the protestant tradition.

The schism still exists today for a reason (sociopolitical stuff aside), but i think that there is still alot greater room for interfaith dialogue.

I'm orthodox Bulgarian Christian, long story how it got that way but it has been around for about 1000 years independently of Constantinople, Bulgarian is the 4th official language of the church after Latin, Hebrew and Greek. But that was way back in the day and none of you would know anything about that. Orthodox as the name implies is the closest we can get today to what Jesus talked about. In it there is little difference between monks and priests, only priests can marry and monks can't but neither does anything more then keep the churches going and perform sermons on spacial occasions, the confession you Catholics have is a BIG transgression since things are meant to stay between you and god so no one can interfere with what he wants you to do. The other thing is the praying to Marry, its call "Father Son and the Holy Ghost" for a fucking reason, his parents had nothing to do with him and Marry didn't do jack in the bible which we have, apart from love Jesus. Satins and martirs you don't pray to you try and be like them in life, like role models. I don't know what else Catholics and Protestants do but you might as well be pissing on the alter for all the good you're doing in gods eyes.



[This message has been edited by t0xic (edited 08-12-2004).]

Well, I'm glad things are cleared up. As it was stated before, Christianity is divided into Catholicism and Protenstantism. It is stated in Scripture that all you have to do to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus lived the perfect life, He died on the cross, and He rose from the dead.

So which denomination goes to heaven?

EDIT: Oh right, all of them. Sorry, didn't really read past the first few posts.

I think Jesus had a pretty fine life, does that mean I get into heaven? To be honest, I can't think of a better way for someone born in his circumstances to have lived, so I'd say it was pretty perfect, given the conditions of his life. Woot, I'll be the only atheist in heaven.

[This message has been edited by sp0rkius (edited 08-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by micho:

, Christianity is divided into Catholicism and Protenstantism.

and orthodoxy

the bible says confess your sins to men

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

I think that the this is just all inter-denominational bickering. Would you honestly say that praying to mary is a damnable offense Digital Savior? I would assume not, so don't bugger the kid about it, he obviously has strong faith in Jesus, and that's what matters.

Nope...and never said it was. What I did say is that it is futile, and exhibits characteristics of idolatry.

You don't get to pick and choose which portions of the Bible you believe. God/Jesus never said to pray to anyone else, for ANY reason.

Not to make you feel good, not as an interjection, not for assistance in helping God hear you.

Gimme a break...it's so ridiculous, that it is not surprising people buy into it.

All it does it create distance between you and God. Praying to dead people, or their souls, accomplishes nothing. If it did, the Bible would have told us to do it.

That is the fundamental issue here...

A strong faith in Jesus denotes a strong belief in his word. Show me in the Bible where it says it is ok to pray to Mary.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

and orthodoxy

the bible says confess your sins to men

Not in the context which you are thinking. To be humble, and admit your failures is one thing...

To tell a priest so that he can "direct" you in the best possible manner of achieving redemption for your sin is something else entirely, and is NOT doctrinal.

"Very well, say ten hail mary's, and you will be forgiven."

First of all, God gave man NO RIGHT to perform such acts. We don't determine what is forgiven and what is not. God does.

Secondly, the Hail Mary prayer is NOT in the original Bible. As I have said, the Catholic Church has modified the Bible to suit it's personal selfish desires, which consist mostly of controlling the masses.

the hail mary isn't in the Catholic Bible either

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Not in the context which you are thinking. To be humble, and admit your failures is one thing...

To tell a priest so that he can "direct" you in the best possible manner of achieving redemption for your sin is something else entirely, and is NOT doctrinal.

"Very well, say ten hail mary's, and you will be forgiven."

First of all, God gave man NO RIGHT to perform such acts. We don't determine what is forgiven and what is not. God does.

Secondly, the Hail Mary prayer is NOT in the original Bible. As I have said, the Catholic Church has modified the Bible to suit it's personal selfish desires, which consist mostly of controlling the masses.



The Catholic bible is almost identical to the KJV, point out some "modifications" where Catholics have twisted gods word?

Confucius said that praying to spirits worked. (I know you will totally discredit this, but I'm saying that it is a legitmate belief.)

I praying to mary gives people peace of mind, then it's ok. All that peace of mind will do is help them do gods work that much better.

And don't say that we should totally rely on god for everything, because if you do, then I would challenge you to stop taking medicine for the rest of your life. And stop giving medicine to your daughter when she's sick.

[This message has been edited by aTribeCalledSean (edited 08-13-2004).]

Judge them by their fruits...Catholic priests molesting children, Spanish inquisition…and all because they’ve been led away from God

I'm an Irish catholic who rejects almost all catholic dogma and think that the church has really lost it's way. I discovered (not re-discovered) my faith after a 2 year process involving spiritual crisis then much reading of THE Book…also, thank you Tom Wright (check out his work...truly blessed!)

I believe that there is a lot of Marian worship (idolatry) in the catholic church today and it makes me sad. When the pope John Paul II was recovering from his shooting back in the 80's, he prayed to and thanked Mary above all else. His first trip after recovering was to a Marian shrine.. It's just not right!

It doesn’t matter what domination you are as long as you let Jesus heal your heart, allowing you to truly feel the presence of the Father.



Just wanted to get that off my chest

i agree there is a problem with praying to Mary and saints with a lot of Catholics. I mean praying as in asking for help, not asking for prayer. That's not dogma though, and neither is molestation.

Your taking "Judge them by their fruits" too far. It's only a handful of priests molesting, it's not a faithwide thing. If I take your thinking, than any bad thing done by anyone, can be ecamples of bad fruit, and I can thusly denounce their faith.

quote:Originally posted by t0xic:

I'm orthodox Bulgarian Christian, long story how it got that way but it has been around for about 1000 years independently of Constantinople, Bulgarian is the 4th official language of the church after Latin, Hebrew and Greek. But that was way back in the day and none of you would know anything about that. Orthodox as the name implies is the closest we can get today to what Jesus talked about. In it there is little difference between monks and priests, only priests can marry and monks can't but neither does anything more then keep the churches going and perform sermons on spacial occasions, the confession you Catholics have is a BIG transgression since things are meant to stay between you and god so no one can interfere with what he wants you to do. The other thing is the praying to Marry, its call "Father Son and the Holy Ghost" for a fucking reason, his parents had nothing to do with him and Marry didn't do jack in the bible which we have, apart from love Jesus. Satins and martirs you don't pray to you try and be like them in life, like role models. I don't know what else Catholics and Protestants do but you might as well be pissing on the alter for all the good you're doing in gods eyes.



[This message has been edited by t0xic (edited 08-12-2004).]

EHH EHH EHH, WRONG!

Orthodoxy is hardly the closest thing to what Jesus did. It's so full of pomp and process, pointless ceremonies, stupid outfits, etc. This is not what Jesus taught or did. Progressive Christian fellowship is much more closer to Jesus than orthodoxy.

^ Depends what you mean by orthodoxy. If you mean orthodoxy as in what you see in High Anglican/Catholic, Greek and Eastern Orthodox (i.e. the "orthodox" church)... then your on the money. Orthodox christianity (as in doctrine) is a different concept.

"You don't get to pick and choose which portions of the Bible you believe. God/Jesus never said to pray to anyone else, for ANY reason."

I concur, it's a sham.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Your taking "Judge them by their fruits" too far. It's only a handful of priests molesting, it's not a faithwide thing. If I take your thinking, than any bad thing done by anyone, can be ecamples of bad fruit, and I can thusly denounce their faith.

I probably was a bit harsh there, but for example I was talking to a Catholic priest in a hospital the other day and the stuff coming out of his mouth about black people in Ireland was disgusting!! I know you can't judge a whole faith by a few, but I feel these priests have lost their way due to a loss of the real message of Christ in catholic teachings. I think a lot of good has been done by Catholic and the Pope, but in general the teachings can never lead to a really new intimate relationship with God...the fluff of Catholicism gets in the way. I still go to mass the odd time, but just for some quite and less and less..

Jesus a middle class rabbi goes walkabout with his bro James and his mates. Jesus gets nailed to a tree.

His bro James takes over and says to be part of the gang you gotta lose your foreskin.

Best mate Peter says nah being male is good enough and goes and forms his own club.

James' fan club dies out.

Peter goes on to be a full pimped out club that got govt sponsership.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

"You don't get to pick and choose which portions of the Bible you believe. God/Jesus never said to pray to anyone else, for ANY reason."

I concur, it's a sham.

he told people to join together in prayer.