Yea all the christians around where I live go on bout how "God" is all powerful and can do anything if so...

Can "God" make a rock sooo heavey that he can't lift????

Haha, the joke is on you.

Hey Beany if you don't mind me asking. Why is that?

Not this shit again.

Okay... here we go.

You are stating a preposition that assumes that 'infinity+1', is a realistic state.

Basically you're trying to challenege the notion of omnipotence... so, can an omnipotent being create an infinitely heavy rock? Yes. Can an omnipotent being lift an infinitely heavy rock? Yes.

Okay? To create something heavier than said omnipotent being could lift would be like saying 'Infinity+1', makes sense.

Sorry for the lack of eloquence.

I'M not tryin to stuff up anything just thought it would be interesting and so did my friend so I figured what I could learn bout it... So thanks a bundle..

Well, there have been so many smart ass wannabes that have posted this topic in this forum that everyone is sick of it, and so flaming usually ensues.

It's such a stupid argument, too stupid to be taken seriously.

God is all powerful and can do anything within the boundries of himself (Which is all there is).

God can't create this rock because the concept doesn't even exist.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 07-09-2004).]

Alright I'll Keep tha in mind when i want to know something serious thanks a bundle.

Bollocks. You were just trying to be a smart ass like all the others.

God can create a rock so heavy he himself cannot lift it, and then he can lift it. Both states exist because god is all-powerful. Well, at least, that's how I did it when I was/will be god... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

(Suppose you had free will with an omnipotent god) Well god made you right? Can lift you right? With the freedom to choose, yes? Yet god can't make up your mind, right? So in a way didn't god already do that?

Or how about this. Some scienctist say that the universe is still expanding. So maybe it created a rock that it can lift. And the rock is still getting bigger, bigger to the point where it can't lift it. Maybe.

quote:Originally posted by AI:

Or how about this. Some scienctist say that the universe is still expanding. So maybe it created a rock that it can lift. And the rock is still getting bigger, bigger to the point where it can't lift it. Maybe.

quote:Originally posted by Gustave:

God can create a rock so heavy he himself cannot lift it, and then he can lift it. Both states exist because god is all-powerful. Well, at least, that's how I did it when I was/will be god... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Did either of you even read what I wrote and understand it? If you are saying omnipotence works outside of infinite constraints you're fucking stupid. Gustave the state of omnipotence is infinite power, show where my theory fails to work that fact into a sound theory. AI, the rock example I used is assuming 'infinite heaviness'... so who gives a shit about the universe expanding to make something heavy heavier (I am already using infinite heaviness)? Beany, I love you because you get it.

quote:Originally posted by AI:

(Suppose you had free will with an omnipotent god) Well god made you right? Can lift you right? With the freedom to choose, yes? Yet god can't make up your mind, right? So in a way didn't god already do that?

What do you mean by 'So in a way didn't god already do that?'? Are you stating that by giving free will He's denying himself the ability to impose Himself on individuals and therefore limiting the area He is able to exert his influence? Because if you are... God would still be considered omnipotent if He retained the ability to remove free will at will... which is a fact that isn't discarded by virtue of free will being granted.

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

Did either of you even read what I wrote and understand it?

Yeah, I did.

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

If you are saying omnipotence works outside of infinite constraints you're fucking stupid.

Ok, this is what you didn't understand: If god created this universe, he can make it work in whatever way he wanted it to. Infinity is just another thing for him to change. He wouldn't, then, be working outside of infinity because he is, himself, outside of it.

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

Gustave the state of omnipotence is infinite power, show where my theory fails to work that fact into a sound theory.

You're attempting to use a theoretically ideal in actually mathematics.

quote:Originally posted by Gustave:

Ok, this is what you didn't understand: If god created this universe, he can make it work in whatever way he wanted it to. Infinity is just another thing for him to change. He wouldn't, then, be working outside of infinity because he is, himself, outside of it.

Omnipotence prescribes infinite power. Infinite being a conceptual state that is as much philosophical as mathematical. You can't upgrade or downgrade infinite ability because it's already a state without limitation. I can't really elaborate beyond this point...

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

Omnipotence prescribes infinite power. Infinite being a conceptual state that is as much philosophical as mathematical. You can't upgrade or downgrade infinite ability because it's already a state without limitation. I can't really elaborate beyond this point...

...And that's my point exactly. There are no limitations.

Look at the rock example.

a)Creation of an infinitely heavy rock

b)Lifting an infinitely heavy rock

z)Omnipotence is infinite power.

You need infinite power to do a or b. You cannot get more power than infinite power because it is limitless. Being limitless does not mean there are limitless possibilities to it (E.g. That it can lessen or increase in potency, because that, by definition, isn't omnipotent (infinite),power). To say God can 'make a rock so heavy that even he canot lift it and then lift it', is to say that infinity + 1 is plausible.

See, your point about God existing in two states is non-sensical, because it has no logical grounds. Even presuming the existence of two states, they are still confined by the fact that 'infinity + 1' isn't a possible variable.

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

Look at the rock example.

a)Creation of an infinitely heavy rock

b)Lifting an infinitely heavy rock

z)Omnipotence is infinite power.

You need infinite power to do a or b. You cannot get more power than infinite power because it is limitless. Being limitless does not mean there are limitless possibilities to it (E.g. That it can lessen or increase in potency, because that, by definition, isn't omnipotent (infinite),power). To say God can 'make a rock so heavy that even he canot lift it and then lift it', is to say that infinity + 1 is plausible.

See, your point about God existing in two states is non-sensical, because it has no logical grounds. Even presuming the existence of two states, they are still confined by the fact that 'infinity + 1' isn't a possible variable.

Infinity cannot be used as a variable, that is your flaw in your logic. Infinity plus one equals infinity because of the way infinity works. We just can't use it like that.

quote:Originally posted by Gustave:

Infinity cannot be used as a variable, that is your flaw in your logic. Infinity plus one equals infinity because of the way infinity works. We just can't use it like that.

In term of variables I only referenced infinity+1, which, if you were to acknowledge as a possibility, would be stating that infinity can be a variable.

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

In term of variables I only referenced infinity+1, which, if you were to acknowledge as a possibility, would be stating that infinity can be a variable.

Hmmm, this is getting into the debate about Infinity's flaws, and Infinity Plus... This conversation lasted a day the last time I got into it... http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

For an example of how infinite items can have limits: 2+1+1/2+1/4+...=4 It's an infinite series with a finite sum. Looking at series shows that some infinities have finite limits. Though that's only true if (-1) < r < (1). Though math is greatly different from conjecture about an omnipotent being, the possibility in one scenario leaves the possibility in another scenario until it is shown to be impossible.

Damn, I almost confused my self with this jargon.

quote:Originally posted by Boomer Da'God:

Yea all the christians around where I live go on bout how "God" is all powerful and can do anything if so...

Can "God" make a rock sooo heavey that he can't lift????

Try being original instead of dredging up old things. Ppl like you always come on here with your whinny ass posts, and expect some1 to say this or that on God.

The fuckin truth is...NONE OF US 'KNOW' HIM, CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU MAY HEAR. Your 'rock' question is lame and again, NOT original. So the Hell what, if He can't; And so the Hell what if He can. It matters not.

What the question proves is that either God is not Omnipotent if He can't make a rock so heavy that not even He can lift it. It adversaly proves that He's not Omnipotent if He 'could' do it. Wow, big fuckin deal bitch.(Not calling you a bitch, just so you know)

But let me tell it to you this way... If indeed God is real, then yes He could make a rock so heavy that not even He could lift it. But He could also make Himself able to lift this rock.

If He wants He could make Himself physically weak, therefore disabling Him from lifting it. But, He could also make Himself strong enough to lift it if He wishes, thefore making Him Omnipotent. Now your question has been answered, so you and every other future lame-o can stop asking it.(Yes I'm calling you lame, just so you know)

Ed:*Adversely*

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 07-10-2004).]

.........Who the hell would want to make this kind of rock anyways? I mean really, what the fuck are you gonna do with it, look at it?

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

.........Who the hell would want to make this kind of rock anyways? I mean really, what the fuck are you gonna do with it, look at it?

Yeah, what ^he said...

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Though math is greatly different from conjecture about an omnipotent being, the possibility in one scenario leaves the possibility in another scenario until it is shown to be impossible.

I'd agree with you on the 'great difference', between likening mathematical theory on 'limits', to the current theoretical discussion on 'limitless', power as seen through omnipotence.

Metalli-God, if you re-read the above arguements your points have been addressed, and you'll see why your thoughts are logically flawed. As for why ask the question... well, if the question cannot be satisfactorily answered then a theoretical omnipotent being cannot be omnipotent (and by that tone nor could one in an objective reality operating within the constraints of logic within the scope of infinity). In any case, it's the question that's flawed.

Edit: Stupid assumption about what Hex wrote. All good now.

[This message has been edited by Durell (edited 07-10-2004).]

Gasp! You know my secret identity. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Yeah, it is greatly different. I just went through that to show that something limitless in one area can be limited in another. Omnipotence is infinite power...depending on what you define power as, the question could have a perfectly logical answer, or a complete paradox. When I think omnipotence, I think infinite ability to expend energy; so I can answer that theoretical question with a no, and the god would still fit omnipotent in the sense that it could lift any rock, but it could not create one. Subjectivity allows for a logical answer to be produced, but then again, I am an atheist, so theorizing on my subjective definitions of attributes held by shit I don't even believe to exist is quite pointless.

"Die Autobots!"

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

Look at the rock example.

a)Creation of an infinitely heavy rock

b)Lifting an infinitely heavy rock

z)Omnipotence is infinite power.

You need infinite power to do a or b. You cannot get more power than infinite power because it is limitless. Being limitless does not mean there are limitless possibilities to it (E.g. That it can lessen or increase in potency, because that, by definition, isn't omnipotent (infinite),power). To say God can 'make a rock so heavy that even he canot lift it and then lift it', is to say that infinity + 1 is plausible.

See, your point about God existing in two states is non-sensical, because it has no logical grounds. Even presuming the existence of two states, they are still confined by the fact that 'infinity + 1' isn't a possible variable.

Yes, they don't have logical grounds. And? An omnipotent being would not have to be confined to "logic" or "sense".

The bottom line is you cannot use an argument, which bound by logic, to refute a being that by definition cannot be bound by logic.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-11-2004).]

Even omnipotence (limitless power), is working within a logical framework, because it is a conceptualised state that already allows for anything up to and including infinity (which exists without limits to potency). Going outside of logic would require God being able to make 1+1=3. Which He can't.

Why can't he make 1+1 = 3? Because you say so? It cannot be because it is logically impossible, because that's the point, he is not bound by logic.

Okay, I am going to say something utterly retarded. You may be struck by Deja vu, however. Why can he make 1+1 =3? Because you say so?

Oh wait... sorry, your answer will likely be 'Because He's God'. My mistake.

The idea of one + one... well, let's look at it in terms of items. One umbrella and another umbrella give you two umbrellas. Now, God can make three umbrellas. Afterall, he can create one out of thin air, or pull it out of his top hat... whatever. However, one umbrella and another umbrella can't give you more than two umbrellas unless you are redefining your terms.

By redefining your terms, the initial value that was once one, when added to itself, still only makes two, or whatever you decide to redefine two as.

Get it? How can God work around this?

quote:Okay, I am going to say something utterly retarded. You may be struck by Deja vu, however. Why can he make 1+1 =3? Because you say so?

Oh wait... sorry, your answer will likely be 'Because He's God'. My mistake.



Because 1+1=2 is based on our logic system. Like I said, and omnipotent being would be above this logic system, he by definition cannot be bound by it.

Read the rest of my post.

Edit: Remove God and sub in 'hypothetical omnipotent being'. Now for the reason for the edit. 'Numbers are conceptual states themselves'.

[This message has been edited by Durell (edited 07-11-2004).]

omnipotence, I have got to get me some of that.

if God did make this rock and did lift this rock... would we be able to comprehend either the rock or the lifting... we cant even truely comprehend God

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

Read the rest of my post.

Edit: Remove God and sub in 'hypothetical omnipotent being'. Now for the reason for the edit. 'Numbers are conceptual states themselves'.





I already read it. It changes nothing. You're using a logic that, by definition, an omnipotent being cannot by bound to.

You're assuming that limitless power extends into the conceptual sphere of definitions. The omnipotent being's power is limitless outside of this conceptual reality (in tangible reality), simply because the reality in this instance is where definitions are made. So, to use an example, an omnipotent being can transform an object, but simultaneously its definition changes. The being can't make a square into a circle and then have it referenced as a four sided object. See? Power doesn't really prescribe the ability to warp a reality of definitions to its will, because that makes no sense... by changing reality you automatically change the definition. But once changed you can't retain the definition of what once was.

Anyway, here's a question I thought of last night while driving to buy alcohol. 'Can an omnipotent being permanently limit its power?'. E.g. Make itself human and eliminate its omnipotence. If it can do that and then return to its prior state... then it isn't omnipotent because it can't force itself and lock itself in a weaker state.

An omnipotent being can be bound by my logic, because my logical rationale is allowing for 'infinite power'.

Yet again you're using logic, a thing that he cannot be bound to.

Being omnipotent, having limitless power, infinite power, would mean he has, "the power to not be bound by logic". The "power to create a four sided triangle".

By definition he can, nay he must be able to do all of this, if not he would not be omnipotent in the first place!

quote:Anyway, here's a question I thought of last night while driving to buy alcohol. 'Can an omnipotent being permanently limit its power?'. E.g. Make itself human and eliminate its omnipotence. If it can do that and then return to its prior state... then it isn't omnipotent because it can't force itself and lock itself in a weaker state.

Of course it could. After limiting his omnipotence, (assuming that involves limiting his power to revert back to omnipotence), he then ceases to be omnipotent.

quote:An omnipotent being can be bound by my logic, because my logical rationale is allowing for 'infinite power'.

No, because by definition, "infinite power" includes the power to create a four sided triangle, or to not be limited by logic. If not, it wouldn't be infinite in the first place.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Yet again you're using logic, a thing that he cannot be bound to.

Being omnipotent, having limitless power, infinite power, would mean he has, "the power to not be bound by logic". The "power to create a four sided triangle".

By definition he can, nay he must be able to do all of this, if not he would not be omnipotent in the first place!

No, because by definition, "infinite power" includes the power to create a four sided triangle, or to not be limited by logic. If not, it wouldn't be infinite in the first place.

Logic works, simply because 'Power beyond limits', is conceivable within it. And yes, an omnipotent being can alter definitions. However, this can only be achieved by affecting reality. Definitions exist in a sub-reality of the tangible and are used to define objects/thoughts/ideas by us. You see, the being can't create a four sided triangle (Unless we're working by its definition(s)... at which point I don't imagine our primitive language can keep up). The moment it creates a four sided object from a triangle, we shall define it as a quadrilateral.

Affecting definitions is no sign of power; the being's ability to warp the mind of every being in the entire universe to start defining a quadrilateral as a triangle (4-sided object as 3-sided), is. You can't seem to grasp the idea of definitions existing elsewhere as a direct subset of interpreting the tangible universe (this includes supernatural phenomena).

quote:Affecting definitions is no sign of power; the being's ability to warp the mind of every being in the entire universe to start defining a quadrilateral as a triangle (4-sided object as 3-sided), is. You can't seem to grasp the idea of definitions existing elsewhere as a direct subset of interpreting the tangible universe (this includes supernatural phenomena).



It is actually irrelevant where definitions "exist". An omnipotent being would be able to affect them wherever they exists.

You don't seem to grasp the fact that the moment we define something as omnipotent, it includes any and all powers imaginable, and unimaginable.

He can make a four sided triangle, he can "warp the mind of every being in the entire universe to start defining a quadrilateral as a triangle"... The moment you say he cannot, then he was not omnipotent to begin with!

Your only recurse is to create a scenario in which his own omnipotence refutes his omnipotence (like the original post). How would you do that? With logic. A logic that an omnipotent being cannot be bound to! Hence, you cannot create that scenario in the first place!

--

Anything you reply to this will be using logic, a logic that an omnipotent being cannot be bound to. By definition, you cannot find a flaw.

I've already stated how logic can still fathom limitless power and why fathoming such a state isn't illogical. However, by continuing to debate this point, you are saying that 'infinity+1', is possible. This is pointless, because, within the confines of logic the being is already assumed to be able to do anything. You can't be able to do anything, plus able to do more things... there are no more things you can do if you can do anything. Anything already allows for everything. If potential were measured by a straight line, logic already allows for the concept of a never ending line in either direction (which is where the omnipotent being's power lies).

As for definitions 'It doesn't matter where they exist', is ignorant. Look at why they exist.

A four-sided triangle doesn't exist in reality. The term triangle itself, only exists because it's the term chosen for a 3sided closed shape by humans of our current eon. By creating something with 4sides, it ceases to be defined as having 3 (by humans), and is therefore no longer a triangle by definition. Definitions exist as a direct result of reality because they are used to define reality. This means that the moment the being uses its limitless power to change anything in reality, if the change is experienced or an object's shape is changed, so too will its definition. You cannot refute this, because it's based upon subjective means of interpretation.

The notion of a flat sphere, for example, is impossible, because a sphere, BY DEFINITION, is a 3dimensional circle. The moment it stops being a 3dimensional circle, is the moment it ceases to be DEFINED as a sphere. This is because our DEFINITIONS are HUMAN INVENTIONS. Am I getting through to you?

The omnipotent being can only change definitions by changing reality... or mass brainwashing of every creature and changing the way they perceive 'their', definitions. Now, if you look at that statement 'The omnipotent being can only change definitions by changing reality'... you can actually see that 'The omnipotent being can change definitions'. It just can't able to do the second without doing the first. It is able to do anything, as you can see in the above two separated (for your convenience), points. I haven't said the being can't change definitions... he can... as above...

As for your point about the rock question, the question is flawed in itself, as was answered with logic, before.

P.S. Logic is not a way of constraining. It's a tool used to analyse and understand. By using logic you aren't pigeon-holing an omnipotent being.

quote:I've already stated how logic can still fathom limitless power and why fathoming such a state isn't illogical. However, by continuing to debate this point, you are saying that 'infinity+1', is possible. This is pointless, because, within the confines of logic the being is already assumed to be able to do anything. You can't be able to do anything, plus able to do more things... there are no more things you can do if you can do anything. Anything already allows for everything. If potential were measured by a straight line, logic already allows for the concept of a never ending line in either direction (which is where the omnipotent being's power lies).

No. You say it allows infinite power, but you're not practicing it.

Your "refutation" is based on logic. A logic that cannot bind him! An omnipotent being cannot be bound by logic, therefore your refutation is rendered null!

You're in essence saying: "He's all powerful... but he can't do this..." which is illogical in the first place!

Again, any explanation you give will be given using something that an omnipotent being can overcome. Period. Whether you call it logic, reasoning, whatever; anything you do can, by definition, be surpassed by an omnipotent being.

quote:Logic is not a way of constraining. It's a tool used to analyse and understand. By using logic you aren't pigeon-holing an omnipotent being.

You are if you're saying that a omnipotent being is constrained by it. With your logical argument, "You need infinite power to do a or b. You cannot get more power than infinite power because it is limitless. ", you're in fact seeking to "pigeon-hole" an omnipotent being.

You are limiting what an omnipotent being can do, which by definition cannot be done, since what he can do is limitless.

quote:Durell:

Logic is not a way of constraining. It's a tool used to analyse and understand. By using logic you aren't pigeon-holing an omnipotent being.

quote:Rust:

You are if you're saying that a omnipotent being is constrained by it. With your logical argument, "You need infinite power to do a or b. You cannot get more power than infinite power because it is limitless. ", you're in fact seeking to "pigeon-hole" an omnipotent being.

Mawuahahahahahahahahahahahahaha x infinity+1

I am pigeon-holing an omnipotent being by saying its power has no limits?

----------------------------------------------

Oh, as for the definitions. Let me break it down even more.

An omnipotent being can change anything.

It can change anything in reality

It can change any definition

It changes definitions by changing reality

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

Mawuahahahahahahahahahahahahaha x infinity+1

I am pigeon-holing an omnipotent being by saying its power has no limits?



You're "pigeoin-holing" him by saying that he cannot do something. That was you're argument, right? That he could not lift up the rock...

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-12-2004).]

Though on opposite sides of the proverbial "chat" fence, I applaud both Rust, AND Durell for having an "intellectual" conversation, no matter how trivial, to some.

Durell actually backed himself up with something other than "OMFG GOD CAN DO ANYTHING!!!!!!111".