Okay I have a theory. Try and understand this coz even if it's not true, it's still makes sense in theory.

To understan this better, don't think of god as a guy with a long beard who lives in the clouds. Think of him more as a consciousness that exists everywhere and creates life as an expression of himself.

Okay remember that we are made in gods image. Not physically, but mentally. This means that our mental make-up is made of the very same stuff as gods mental make-up. The only difference being that he understands hiself, but we don't understand ourselves (Not fully anyway).

God wants us to be with him 100% of the time. This isn't really a selfish request since all happiness that we experience is through being with god. This is living in the moment. God is in the moment, god IS the moment because each moment that exists is a momentary representation of god. If you are living life in the moment then you are with god.

To help you understand, Imagine sparring in a martial arts match. If you are not in the moment (IE: your thoughts are not focused and you are left thinking about future consequences such as "Argh, what if I lose"), then you will not enjoy the match and you will not be with god, you will only be with yourself and your own thoughts. But if you do live in the moment, your mind will be completely focused, you won't care if you win or lose because you aren't thinking about that. You are completely living the fight that you are in. You are comletely living your current experience, and since you are in "The moment", you are experiencing that very representation of god at that very time, and so you are with god.

Now remember we are the same as god, so we can use 2 humans to explain this.

Imagine being a parent, and you love your child completely. They are all you think about and you love being with them at every moment and they do you. Then suddenly, your child picks another person over you. Maybe they choose a friend over you. You're naturally going to feel hurt.

Well maybe this is the same with god. He want our complete attention IE: He wants us to live in the very moment that he is in IE: He wants us to share moments.

The thing is, if we do something that we believe is bad, then we can't possibly be living in the moment. Our conscioence kicks in and we draw away from the moment because we know deep down that what we are doing is wrong and we are too afraid to live it with 100% attention. Therefore we are not with god for these moments that we do "Bad" things. This is real sinning. But that doesn't mean that sex before marriage or stealing is a sin. A sin is anything that you personally, deep down in your soul, believe is wrong and that takes you away from the moment. The thing is you can do anything, so long as you are with god during the experience, so long as you are sharing it with god. IE Staying in the moment and being attentive to the experince.

If we don't live in the moment then maybe god experiences hurt since he feels we don't want to be with him. Maybe god will feel unloved, just like the parent whose child chose his friend.

Now god has these negative emotions within himself. And everyone knows that a bad emotion needs to be expressed. If they aren't expressed then they build up inside of us and can turn into resentment. And how can you love someone completely if you resent them? You can't, and god knows this. But still, he wants to love us and give us 100% attention, and so he has to express his negative emotions (which he does instantly before he even realises he has them). So he does by punishing the exact people who caused them. After all we did the shameful act of turning our attention away from god, which in itself is a foolish act since god is where happiness is. So god has to express his negative emotions so that he can carry on loving us. The only way to avoid punishment is to ask for forgiveness and return to the moment, realising that we made a mistake in leaving.

So with this it's easier to understand that God punishes us so that he can carry on loving us. Is there a more noble reason? I don't think so.

On a side not, this also shows why countless people meditate or chant. This is a practice of focusing on the moment. So you could describe meditation or chatning as something that teaches you to live in the moment, and be with god.



[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 07-12-2004).]

"God is a mean kid with a magnifying glass and I'm an ant. He could make things better in an instant but he'd rather burn off my feelers and watch me squirm"- Bruce Almighty http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif). For a moment I thought that was semi-relavant so there you go!

[This message has been edited by icantthinkofaname (edited 07-12-2004).]

Well said, Beany. Words are so hard to use to describe this moment sometimes, but you pulled it off!

"We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment, we are choosing to be here, right now, hold on, stay inside... this holy reality."

"The voice of past hurt is a liar. You are forgiven"

If you truly forgive yourself and others, you are forgiven, that's what I think... but it takes a lot of letting go and change within yourself to do this... We have to stop thinking the universe is against us, and stop being against ourselves and the universe, for they're really the same...the past is gone, we just have to break down our mental walls we've put up. Yes, I'd agree that meditation does indeed help you focus on feeling "the moment".

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 07-11-2004).]

Who said God DOES punish us?

I don't think God does anything. We're on our own.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Who said God DOES punish us?

I don't think God does anything. We're on our own.

Clearly you read the title and not the post. If you had you would realize that is kind of the point beany is making. God only "punishes" us because God is living life. Not living life in the usual sense, because it doesn't take a lot to do that. More living life and enjoying it, breathing deep the raptures of being alive, "stopping and smelling the roses", if you will. It's not the easiest thing to explain but beany did a splendid job, I recomend you go back and read his words.

Go on, go back and actually read it, all of you. Read it again if you've already read it. NOW

No, I read it.

And I disagree. I don't see God as being involved in our lives AT ALL.

He doesn't 'feel' what we do. He's somewhere else. We are alone, left to our own devices, and that's how he and all the other Gods want it.

As we poison our minds and bodies, so does God poison His.

Just run around and be merry, love everything and the world will bloom like a flower. As gardeners know, when you sing to your plants, they sing too, in they're own way.

This is why Eden was paradise, is paradice.

I've a thought, some of you have probably heard of people being able to infulence random number generators. I'm sure there is reasons why this could be debunked, but I have not heard it so please, if you know enlighten me.

But if this is possible, that somebodies will can directly effect the outside environment. If this will was multiplied, and harmonised with the will of an all loving God, then what effect could this have on the outside (as well as the innner) world?

Eden?

My guess is that Adam and Eve just wanted to take the ride. God~ "Tickets here!"

If were all immortal spirits and nothing can realy harm us, and the true death, ie. Enlightenment, returning to the garden, what ever it is, is just like emerging from the exit of a goast train, then what harm has realy been done?

And who wants to go again?

For in and out, above, about, below,

'Tis nothing but a Magic Shadow-show,

Played in a Box whose Candle is the Sun

So when infants die it's because they "turned their attention away from god"? Boy, God must be a real fucking prick!

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So when infants die it's because they "turned their attention away from god"? Boy, God must be a real fucking prick!

Well, he DOES love to smite.

But that's what I'm saying. God is like viewing us from a cosmic microscope, and we're the white blood cells in the petri dish.

before i start, i will say i am not a christian.

if your god is a true god, y would he be anything like his creations...for instance, a man in power wants to stay in power, therefor he will not create somthing equal to him, because it might take over power

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Well, he DOES love to smite.

But that's what I'm saying. God is like viewing us from a cosmic microscope, and we're the white blood cells in the petri dish.



How could he if he doesn't exist? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:



How could he if he doesn't exist? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

That'd be rather foolish for him to be doing all this if he didn't exist, wouldn't it?

Doing all of what? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I don't believe he exists, let alone that he punishes, smites and/or gives.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-12-2004).]

Why would he be worried about power>?

Does the word anthropomorphism mean anything to you?

It does to me, but it certainly shouldn't.

There should be a smaller word for that. It's just vocabulary masturbation.

Sorry, the concept is what's important. It's the only one word description I know of for this kind of stuff.

God does not punish, nor does he have any preference regarding our behavior. We are free to do what we will--there are, however, consequences on this plane.

The universe gives us what we choose, and many of us choose to be harmed, for whatever sick reasons of our own.

"For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted."

--Hebrews 2:18, NASB

No one has suffered more than our Father in heaven. No one has paid more dearly for the allowance of sin into the world. No one has so continuously grieved over the pain of a race gone bad. No one has suffered like the One who paid for our sin in the crucified body of His own Son. No one has suffered more than the One who, when He stretched out His arms and died, showed us how much He loved us. It is this God who, in drawing us to Himself, asks us to trust Him when we are suffering and when our own loved ones cry out in our presence (I Peter 2:21; 3:18; 4:1).

It is a mistaken opinion that subjects God to being the cause of our suffering. Lucifer is that cause, God merely allows it, based on "man's" choice, that fateful day in the Garden if Eden.

Sin is the predecessor of pain...without pre-marital sex, babies would not be born (or aborted) unwanted. This does, contrary to popular belief, cause pain.

Murder, I think everyone would agree, causes pain. Whether you agree to use the terminology "sin" in discussing murder is neither here nor there. Innately, humans know it is wrong.

I could go through all of the sins, giving examples of how they cause pain, but I am sure you get the point.

To expound, sin comes from Satan...and this "curse" was passed on to us when Adam and Eve decided that knowing both good and evil was more attractive than living a life free of pain and suffering. The world that we live in today is NOT the world God had intended for us.

How did bad things come about ? http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c008.html

Why does God allow innocent people to suffer ? http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Doesn't the world's condition prove that there is no God ? http://christiananswers.net/evangelism/responses/comfort-suffering.html

Why is the world the way it is ? http://christiananswers.net/gospel/gospel1.html



God's Nature

"If God is perfect, why did He make an imperfect creation?"

The Bible tells us that the Genesis creation was "good." There was no sin and therefore no suffering or death. Why then did God give Adam and Eve the ability to sin, knowing full well that they would sin and bring death and pain to the human race? Some believe that if Adam had been created without the ability to choose, then he would have been a "robot." A father cannot make his children love him. They choose to love him because they have a free will. Others point out that humanity would never have seen the depth of the love of God, as displayed in the cross, unless Adam had sinned, and that fact could be one reason why God allowed sin to enter the world.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Okay I have a theory. Try and understand this coz even if it's not true, it's still makes sense in theory.

To begin, I apologize for the length of this post. Try and bear with me, here...

Now, this theory is not even comprehendable, from a Christian point of view. But I am going to try and reply to it, anyway.

(no offense meant, I promise)

quote:To understan this better, don't think of god as a guy with a long beard who lives in the clouds. Think of him more as a consciousness that exists everywhere and creates life as an expression of himself.

This is the most intelligent portion of this whole "theory", because what you have described God to be, is EXACTLY what He is. Consciousness/spirit...*applauds*

quote:Okay remember that we are made in gods image. Not physically, but mentally. This means that our mental make-up is made of the very same stuff as gods mental make-up. The only difference being that he understands hiself, but we don't understand ourselves (Not fully anyway).

Genesis 1:26 - "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, let them rule over the fish of the sea, and the birds of the air.'"

Genesis 1:27 - "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God, He created him; male and female He created them."

Where in these scriptures do you perceive that He is speaking only of us mentally, and not physically ? (not saying either way, but He does not specifically say, which leads me to believe that much about your opinions on God are derived from your own perception, as opposed to what He actually says.)

quote:God wants us to be with him 100% of the time. This isn't really a selfish request since all happiness that we experience is through being with god.

Once again, some truth.

Psalm 51:11 - "Do not cast me from your presence, or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of your salvation, and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me."

Acts 3:19 - "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"

quote:This is living in the moment.

Please enlighten me as to how you came to this epiphany...if you are basing this "theory" on the living God of Christianity, then please reference where in the Bible it is said that to be with God is to be living in the moment.

I believe that this thought process supports that of an athiest (don't kill me, guys!), except for the presence of God. To live in the moment, to do as you will (meaning whatever you want), as long as you have God in your thoughts while you are doing it...this will make God pleased ? All this does is nullify accountability and responsibility for your own actions.

Are you saying that if you rape a small child, you are ok, just as long as you have God in mind while doing it ?

To keep "Him" in the moment with you, as you kill everything that is good, and pure, and innocent (in human terms, since we are all born into sin) about that child, makes it alright ?

I am not following you, and your "theory" is clearly not based in anything Biblical. So, perhaps you should clarify WHICH god you are referring to, specifically.

quote:God is in the moment, god IS the moment because each moment that exists is a momentary representation of god. If you are living life in the moment then you are with god.

Correction - If you believe in God, and accept His son Jesus Christ as your saviour, ONLY then are you with God.

Acts 4:12 - "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 - "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

This would indicate that whether we live with God in the "moment" or not (asleep or awake...how can you be conscious of being in the moment with God while you are asleep?), we are with Him.

quote:To help you understand, Imagine sparring in a martial arts match. If you are not in the moment (IE: your thoughts are not focused and you are left thinking about future consequences such as "Argh, what if I lose"), then you will not enjoy the match and you will not be with god, you will only be with yourself and your own thoughts.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I am not seeing the correlation between the sparring match, and moments with God. Either this was an ecclectic thought that was not written completely, or you are farther off the mark than I originally thought.

If your thoughts are not on the match, then you lose. It's not the enjoyment of the actual match that you are missing, it is the joy of winning at the end...focus is a pre-requisite for this.

quote:But if you do live in the moment, your mind will be completely focused, you won't care if you win or lose because you aren't thinking about that. You are completely living the fight that you are in. You are comletely living your current experience, and since you are in "The moment", you are experiencing that very representation of god at that very time, and so you are with god.

What human competes in a sport, without a care as to whether or not they will win ?

I understand that many delude themselves into thinking that they participate in sports, such as martial arts, not for the sport itself, but for the enjoyment of it. The flaw in this line of thinking is that man, as a whole, is a warring species. With this instinct comes the almost uncontrollable desire to compete...and the purpose of competition is to win.

To make a parallel between this and our intended relationship with God, is fallacy.

quote:Now remember we are the same as god, so we can use 2 humans to explain this.

Here, again, you err. We are not the SAME as God...we were made in His image...in His likeness. If we were the SAME as God, we would also be omnipotent, and there would be WAY too many chiefs and not enough indians in the universe. Catch my drift ?

quote:Imagine being a parent, and you love your child completely. They are all you think about and you love being with them at every moment and they do you. Then suddenly, your child picks another person over you. Maybe they choose a friend over you. You're naturally going to feel hurt.

Well maybe this is the same with god. He want our complete attention IE: He wants us to live in the very moment that he is in IE: He wants us to share moments.

You are putting far too much humanity into God. I don't know if this makes you more comfortable about being His creation or not, but I would be interested in finding out what your thoughts are on what being an omnipotent being entails.

You are right on one thing, though...God does enjoy our attention. It's called worship, and I have gone to great lengths in other threads to explain this "worship". Prayer, fasting, fellowshipping with other Christians, reading the Bible...these are all forms of worship. He enjoys these things, because He loves His creation, and He wants us to love Him in return. As a parent to their child, God hopes that in all things, He will be considered (meaning in every facet of your life).

quote:The thing is, if we do something that we believe is bad, then we can't possibly be living in the moment. Our conscioence kicks in and we draw away from the moment because we know deep down that what we are doing is wrong and we are too afraid to live it with 100% attention.

So, only if we are being "good" can we live in the moment, thus live with God ?

Who is determining what is good and what is bad, in this scenario ?

All of our modern day laws and principles stem from the Ten Commandments (give or take), which indicates that you believe the God of Christianity to be the one in whom you are seeking these moments with. If that is the case, then you would believe the rest of the Bible as well, which completely obliterates your theory.

quote:Therefore we are not with god for these moments that we do "Bad" things. This is real sinning.

The Bible specifically states that to go against God and His word is sinning.

If this theory were true, then you would be no better than anyone else (i.e. those that do NOT believe in God), because they ALL live in the moment. (though they do not regard right from wrong)

Romans 6:23 - "But the wages for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Your theory seems to project the idea that salvation is not required; merely living in the moment with God is all that is required of us. If that is true, where does the above scripture apply ? We are born into sin...that means little, bitty babies, too. So, how can they consciously decide to live in the moment with God ? They are not even conscious of self (entirely) until almost the age of two, varying by child. (realizing self outside of mom and dad)

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-1216,subcat-MATH.html

quote:But that doesn't mean that sex before marriage or stealing is a sin. A sin is anything that you personally, deep down in your soul, believe is wrong and that takes you away from the moment.

Now stealing and pre-marital sex aren't considered sins, if you don't believe they are ? What then is the point of God ?

Once again I ask, what made us so knowledgable and important that we are able to decide what is wrong or right ? What is a sin, and what is not ? By that reasoning, what is a sin to one person, is not a sin to another, and thus the entire idea of "accountability" becomes void. What is the purpose of God, if there is no such thing as accountability ? If He did not create the law, then what exactly is His function ? With no law, there would be no law-breaking, and therefor no need for a "savior".

quote:The thing is you can do anything, so long as you are with god during the experience, so long as you are sharing it with god. IE Staying in the moment and being attentive to the experince.

Once again, it is ok to rape a child, so long as you are keeping God in the moment with you ? What sort of logic is that ?!

quote:If we don't live in the moment then maybe god experiences hurt since he feels we don't want to be with him. Maybe god will feel unloved, just like the parent whose child chose his friend.

Now god has these negative emotions within himself. And everyone knows that a bad emotion needs to be expressed. If they aren't expressed then they build up inside of us and can turn into resentment. And how can you love someone completely if you resent them? You can't, and god knows this. But still, he wants to love us and give us 100% attention, and so he has to express his negative emotions (which he does instantly before he even realises he has them). So he does by punishing the exact people who caused them. After all we did the shameful act of turning our attention away from god, which in itself is a foolish act since god is where happiness is. So god has to express his negative emotions so that he can carry on loving us. The only way to avoid punishment is to ask for forgiveness and return to the moment, realising that we made a mistake in leaving.

First, the punishment for sin is death...which is not remotely speaking of physical, human death. Death to God, which is eternal separation, which means Hell.

You are, once again, relating God to a human. You are turning Him into a selfish child, and I don't know why anyone would want to follow a god like that !

"You didn't pay attention to me, so NAH !"

Hmmm...sounds like a divine spirit to me.

quote:So with this it's easier to understand that God punishes us so that he can carry on loving us. Is there a more noble reason? I don't think so.

How is this NOBLE ? And by whose interpretation ? If sin is only sin to the actual committer, then why isn't nobility held to the same regard ?

I wouldn't find that noble at all.

God doesn't punish us so that He can continue to love us. A parent doesn't spank their child or send them to time out in order to keep on loving them...they do it to prevent a pattern of bad behavior.

God loves us unconditionally, because we are His creation. Our admittance into Heaven isn't dependant upon His love for us, because He already does. He cannot be in the presence of sin, which means He must turn His back on those that choose a sinful life over Him. That is the purpose of the death of Christ...to cover the sin of those that accept Him.

When Christ was being crucified, he cried out, "Lord, Lord ! Why have you forsaken me ?" This was a direct personification of God's reaction to sin, because at that moment, Jesus assumed the entire sin of man, with the end result of salvation for all. God had to turn His back, against His own SON(!), because of the sin he had assumed. Your sins, my sins, our children's sins, our great-great-great grandfather's sins, and so on. Everyone's.

If God could stand sin, than everyone would be granted admittance into heaven, but he is the ultimate good, and therefor, He must have a place for those that will not follow Him, rather, those who choose to live in sin.

This is not to say that Christians do not sin...of course we do ! But we are covered by the blood of Christ, which He promised was sufficient atonement for our sins, knowing we could never be truly sinless. (since the fall of man)

quote:On a side not, this also shows why countless people meditate or chant. This is a practice of focusing on the moment. So you could describe meditation or chatning as something that teaches you to live in the moment, and be with god.

Most people I spoken with that meditate with fervor, have NO intention of connecting with God. That's just my experience.

Medititating is the act of clearing one's mind...a way of relaxing. I really don't see how this filters in to the magnitude of Christian theology.

One other thing...can you define a "moment" ? Is this measured by human time tables, or by God's ? What if your entire life is a "moment" to God ? What then ?

You are always in a moment. Everything else is either past or future. So, how is this a significant measurement by which to base your theology, and thus your eternal state of being ?

Just to make it clear, I am NOT discreditting your intelligence, nor your belief that this may be the truth for all of us...as a Christian, I know what God tells us in the Bible, and I believe it wholeheartedly, for MANY reasons. I cannot lie and say that I have not been slightly angered by your post, not because that was your intention, but because it is blatantly apparent that this is a crafty attempt by Satan to use you as a stumbling stone for everyone else out there that may be struggling with where to find truth.

What you have said here today is essentially what God wants us to believe, but the twists and turns that you have thrown into the mix are so slight and so unoffensive that many may choose to believe it, or be disillusioned by it, without any basis for comparison, or proof either way. (I do not fear that prospect...it will be as it should be) I do not mean this to sound as though I support brainwashing, because I do not.

I appreciate that you made it clear that this was YOUR theory, created by your own mind, and by nothing else. That, at least, gives your theory some measure of honorability, because you are, in some aspect, willing to take responsibility for this thought process.

I await your response, and hope that I can come to a better understanding of why you even came up with this theory.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-13-2004).]

Digital_Savior, excuse my bluntness, but you're tear down of beany's theory is entirely way to heavy on christianity. Don't misunderstand me, I do not intend to discredit christianity, and if that works for you it works for you. However, for the purpose of theological discussion one's points should not be weighted so heavily on one side.

I do not mean that none of your points of any validity, I mean that to grow one must be inclined to believe what they do not believe. For the most part, as well, someone not wrapping the bible around themselves like a warm blanket will not be swayed by quotes from the bible. I realize passages may inspire feelings of the pressence and/or the glory of God in you, but for a back/forth debate it doesn't have an incredible amount of influence.

It appears to me that beany's theory is not rooted entirely in christianity, it actually appears closer to hindu or buddhism. In that human conciousness overall is God, many eyes many lives, in death you awake and realize you were apart of God and laugh at how serious you took your plight. The "Moment" he refers to is the eternal "moment", which is this one, or this one, or this one, or this one, etc. etc. etc. Time, it's just a cycle, just like that of day/night, winter/summer, life/death, they're all just more interchanging colors like a kaliedascope then anything definite and temperate.

In Beany's theory, in my mind, you kind of have to throw out things that last forever like heaven/hell concepts of always evil/always good. They just don't hold a lot of water. He is not saying that the moment that we are in now will last forever, you will have to deal with consequences in other moments, it's just that when you think about it in the end it doesn't really matter. Life goes on, with or without you, but you can't let life pass you by crossing your fingers for something to happen after you die.

Don't take any of my thoughts out on beany, I do not speak for him, but some of my thoughts seem to parallel his. I feel to understand a lot of what his words hint at, you can't sit firmly where you're already at. Even Jesus didn't follow STRICTLY in his father's (Joseph's) religion, otherwise he wouldn't have been Jesus and they wouldn't have killed him. I also believe this last statement will have pissed you off. My intention is not to piss you off, but this point needs to be said as you seem to be not the garden variety doesn't-really-understand-their-own-religion christian but rather a very strong opinionated christian that does not wish to be swayed from the positions the bible lays out. My point is Jesus, himself, said many things that sounded crazy and out right blasphemous to the bible of his time (old testament). So do not be so quick to say "bullshit" and cover your ears because it disagrees with ancient text. Sometimes ancient text needs a new prophet or two to spruce up the editing (if you believe in that sort of thing.)

I hope I did more clarifying misunderstanding then enraging honest seekers of answers.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, just as I am mine...I believe I fully understood the context under which Beany's theory was presented, and I was not only responding to that, but asking for clarification.

To use the title "god" so loosely is what put me to arms, which is why I asked what "god" he was referring to.

I gave the Christian stand-point (hopefully!) in relation to his theory...and nothing more.

Nothing you said angered me, because it is apparent that you have not extensively studied the Bible, and Jesus' teachings. How can I get angry at ignorance ? Stupidity, maybe...but ignorance, no. (that was certainly not meant to offend you, nor am I sticking my nose into the air at you...this is my perception of your knowledge on the Bible)

When did my knowledge of the bible come into play? I hardly mentioned the thing.

The term "God" being used loosely shouldn't really ruffle your feathers as it is a word, like all words, which only barely scratches the surface of it's true intentions. Also, like all words, it is lacking of inherent meaning until meaning is injected into it through usage (and more importanly emotion). God, YHVH, Jehovah, Alah, Jah, Zeus, Vishnu, Hare Krishna, Bhudda, all just words that are really a pretty garment to give to the deeper meaning behind them.

And it's not like the meaning behind "God" in this discussion was a paper clip or my left sock. For the most part it's been a genuine attempt to understand.

Cheers I_Like_Traffic_Lights

Anyway, Digital Saviour, no offense but I'm not gonna take the time out to reply to your huge post. I disagree with a lot of it, but I don't have much interest in debating it.

As I said, my post was a theory. I don't necessarily believe god even does punish us, but some people do. This is a theory that addresses why god punishes us if he does. Take from it what you will. But don't go around presuming one person is ignorant and another isn't. Just because you may understand christianity doesn't mean you understand life.

To me, this forum is a way to discuss life. I prefer to leave religeons out of it to a certain extent.



[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 07-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

I don't see God as being involved in our lives AT ALL.

He doesn't 'feel' what we do. He's somewhere else. We are alone, left to our own devices, and that's how he and all the other Gods want it.

What a sad, lonely world you must live in. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Are you Christian?

quote:Originally posted by Brother Maynard:

What a sad, lonely world you must live in. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Quite the opposite. I find the demigods of the astral plane or afterlife to be quite interested in our lives and in helping me out. Matter of fact, my gods see me as an equal.

quote:Are you Christian?

Certainly not.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Quite the opposite. I find the demigods of the astral plane or afterlife to be quite interested in our lives and in helping me out. Matter of fact, my gods see me as an equal.



But you don't have any proof of that of course?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

But you don't have any proof of that of course?



Of course. Nothing beyond what I've seen and experienced with my own eyes.

Worry not, Rust. You'll find out soon enough. None of us will live to 2100.

Let me guess, the end of the world?

You know, it's easy to make claims when you have nothing to loose. If it doesn't happen you'll be dead anyway, if it does happen then you were correct.

Here's my prediction: None of us will make it to 2101. You can quote me on that!

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Let me guess, the end of the world?

Heh. No.

I'm assuming you were born before 1990, as was I. Neither of us will likely live to be older than 110.

quote:You know, it's easy to make claims when you have nothing to loose. If it doesn't happen you'll be dead anyway, if it does happen then you were correct.

The same could be said for your beliefs, as well.

Nevertheless, I was not talking about an apocalypse. Only that all of us will die.

Oh...

quote:The same could be said for your beliefs, as well.

There's a difference. My beliefs are substatiated by evidence. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:



There's a difference. My beliefs are substatiated by evidence. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

You really believe that, huh?

Amazing.

Yes. Care to explain why it's amazing?

Sorry, it's just a personal thing. After all I've seen, it's hard to believe people still believe that.

EDIT: of course, it's entirely reasonable for people to do so. They have seen no proof of anything otherworldy, so why would they know it to exist?

[This message has been edited by The_Rabbi (edited 07-13-2004).]

Beany, I liked what you had to say- its nice to see something thoughtful on Totse every now and then.

One thing I do disagree on (perhaps in a peer review style...) is your reasoning on "the moment". I'm sure were both coming from very different places, but I've always understood God as omniscient etc. as such, while God exists in "the moment", I think it is also true that God exists in every moment simultaneously. I think God also exists beyond the moment. So to be in tune with God is to be in tune with not just "the moment" but with the entirety of God's existence, so "every moment" becomes important, and not just the now.

While for us it appears that there is only "the moment", we can relate to a God for whom all of existence is a moment, and who knows "the now that was" and "the now as it will be". Thus, I think concepts of past and future and absolute reference points still have some value.

Me thinks anyway. Nice post though beany.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Quite the opposite. I find the demigods of the astral plane or afterlife to be quite interested in our lives and in helping me out. Matter of fact, my gods see me as an equal.

Well, isn't that convenient for you, then ? I can imagine why you would resist a God that would require servitude, and to be the only Master of your life...

At least you are honest about your delusions of grandeur, and why you think you are too good for God. (or why He is not good enough for you, rather)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Well, isn't that convenient for you, then ? I can imagine why you would resist a God that would require servitude, and to be the only Master of your life...

At least you are honest about your delusions of grandeur, and why you think you are too good for God. (or why He is not good enough for you, rather)

If God is so great for me, why did it take Freya to answer a prayer that I asked him for first?

I don't believe your God to care. I don't blame him. His followers are whiny pussies, the ONLY exception being the Israelis.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

I'm sure were both coming from very different places, but I've always understood God as omniscient etc. as such, while God exists in "the moment", I think it is also true that God exists in every moment simultaneously. I think God also exists beyond the moment. So to be in tune with God is to be in tune with not just "the moment" but with the entirety of God's existence, so "every moment" becomes important, and not just the now.

While for us it appears that there is only "the moment", we can relate to a God for whom all of existence is a moment, and who knows "the now that was" and "the now as it will be". Thus, I think concepts of past and future and absolute reference points still have some value.

.

Yeah dude I agree with you, I think.

It's as if all moments have already been set out. Every moment already exists outside of time.

I don't think it's that god created the universe and then it played out, but instead god thought of the universe and we are experiencing that thought that he is having right now.

Every experience that anyone ever had is the experience of Gods thought, that is happening now. IE: We are living inside of gods imagination.

or sommats

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 07-14-2004).]

quick analogy on the moment and God:

a raindrop in the ocean, a moment in time

grain of sand in the beach, one thought in my mind

a single soul is to God.

So, we DO, or we DON'T have free will ?

If it's "gods" imagination doing all the work, then what about the choices we make ? Are they truly ours, or "his" ? Do they honestly affect our lives, or are the events in our future predetermined ? If they are predetermined, is there a point to our lives, other than being the result of "gods" imagination ?

The people in my dreams are obviously not aware of themselves, as a sentient being would be...so I am not sure I understand your theory.

Sorry for all the questions...just trying to see where you are coming from here.

Free will becomes more of an illusionary part of the dance, so to speak, in my mind.

Sure there's a vast amount of ways you can react to this, free will make it so, but definately a finite number based on the chemicals and impulses in your brain and all the experiences of all the moments that have lead up to this moment in your life.

Disagree?

Proove me wrong and feel completely different about this.

Although we have options we can pick and choose, we cannot change how we feel about things at a snap of the fingers. Making free will, for the most part, a moot point. Or at very best choosing the better of two evils, or perhaps slipping into a role for this great play called existence.

So, you're saying that we're essentially controlled ?

Not controlled so much as there is a natural flow/cycle/rythym of things.

Free will is actually one of the most unsure parts of my thinking.

I'm not sure if all there is is free will and the free will of others interlocking with eachother in somewhat of a whirlpool of lives being lived that feed off of eachother and give eachother life.

Or if free will is more of an after thought, reflection and contemplation as our decisions come together with the decisions of others like gears that can become as predictable as the tides.

Perhaps somewhere in the middle.

I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter, as I try to absorb all theorys and thoughts like a sponge then ring it out through a filter to become my own thoughts.

Yeah free will is a bastard of a topic.

I wonder if we made all our choices at the begining and now we are experiencing the choices in order to understand why we made them. Matrix gave me this idea but I haven't given it much thought.

When I choose to take a shower in the morning, instead of going to work smelling like bed-clothes, is this not free will in the making ?

As plausible as your idea may be, I really don't see any evidence in the day to day life that we all live that supports it.

Can you give me some examples of why you would come to that conclusion ?

Rhythm/cycle/flow would suggest the life of an object without conscious thought...(as far as humans have determined) such as a flower, or a stone.

They have no thoughts, and therefor do not make decisions, which means they are victims (if you will) to their environment.

They may live long fruitful lives (ok, exlcude the stone...bad example), if the weather is right, if nothing (human, animal, etc.) destroys them, if they receive enough sunlight for fuel...

Otherwise, they die.

There is no self-preservation involved, which is an undeniable characteristic of a human being. Without free-will, wouldn't the same be true of us ?

But that leads us to animals...they do have some level of conscious thought, though it remains to be unproven that animals can think of "themselves" as an "I" being.

But perhaps I am getting off the subject here...

We make decisions, yes. You decide to take a shower in the morning before going to work as to not stink, but you decide this because you are a clean person. All the moments of your life have lead up to you being the person you are right now, your past has made you a person who baths regularly. So in a way the decision is already made for you, you wouldn't normally allow yourself to decide differently.

Also, for the most part, main functions have no room for your say in it. You do not decide when you're tired, you don't choose to be hungry, it's not really up to you who you love, you can't up and decide not to be angry anymore. A large portion of life besides this is played out in a reactive state, you also cannot choose how you feel about this you merely feel the way you do about it.

The further down the path, the further refined your rythym is. Spontanaeity becomes at best a crescendo in the melody of your living, simple cases of sudden extremes of how you feel. You're not really going to spontaneously, just-like-that, do something completely opposing your character.