why not?

Why not whatever you want?

Why I stopped following Buddhism: http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-buddhism-harris.html

Ten Questions to ask Guatama: http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/letter-buddhisminterview.html

Rational to believe in God ? http://www.str.org/free/studies/rational.htm

The Buddha, and what he taught [by a former Buddhist](Part I): http://www.equip.org/free/DB565-1.htm

The Arrival of Theravada (Part II): http://www.equip.org/free/DB565-2.htm

Zest for Zen (Part III): http://www.equip.org/free/DB565-3.htm

Tibetan Buddhists (Part IV): http://www.equip.org/free/DB565-4.htm

Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism: http://www.equip.org/free/DN095.htm



Please let me know if you need more...

... if you feel it is your way - follow, if you want to have answers - try to find them inside...

... one things I have to mention: christiananswers.net is the most ignorant Christian site on the web, their "answers" about Buddhism shows their complete misunderstanding of this religion. This is the truth, and all who know something about Buddhism will probably agree with me.

^Off with they're heads, they don't need them

To that I must say: it is not the only source from which I find my references, however, it is quickly referenceable ALL AT ONCE.

I listed a few other sites with that post that were not from Christiananswers.net, some of which are from a gentleman that was once a buddhist himself (and is, consequently, now a Christian).

I don't suppose you bothered to read THOSE, eh ?

Doesn't really matter what your opinion of these sites is...if it is truth, that is all that matters.

The pagan point of view is predominant on this forum, so I think it only fair that someone from the other side of that fence should have the opportunity to submit their two cents.

Discredit, viably, my references, and I will cease to use them.

While NO ONE is perfect, it is a starting point...

The ultimate reference ? The Bible.

Happy Ugly Boy:

I support Buddhism only if you're speaking of the original cult of Siddartha. Otherwise, it's either the exponentially decayed view of the later Dharma, or some bastardized infusion of new-age lesbianic moon-worship that is not worth your time, much less your soul.

Digital_Savior:

I think you dreadfully misunderstand the definition of 'pagan,' if you suggest that a pagan view is dominant on this forum. Misguided and skeptical atheism is strongest here, I believe - very few Christians like yourself.

The lunar crux of personal compassion for the subjective soul upon which Christianity turns, in spite of the barrage of bourgeois modernist politics that birthed the Cult of Golgotha from which you draw your materialist inspiration, is just as susceptible to the scrutiny of comparison in which you mix other creeds from an aegis of exemption. You have yet to realize that your faith, just as the world's other popular religions, share a common spine, and draw from the same unconscious archetypes of transformation that all others do, thus negating its exclusionary status - and, in a truth revealed by historical investigation, has done less to provide the type of alchemical synergistic relationships it boasts when compared to other doctrines.

In other words, the Bible is far from the ultimate reference point, and your Deus Creator is far from an infallible protagonist. They are but parts of one tradition amongst many, which project the same psychic forces onto the same unconscious images as every other faith on the planet, and, in spite of the temporal circumstances of its genesis, remain with the same common skeleton as all Christian-proclaimed Satan-born antitheses.

SST

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I listed a few other sites with that post that were not from Christiananswers.net, some of which are from a gentleman that was once a buddhist himself (and is, consequently, now a Christian).

Yup, gentlemen who wasn't enough smart to understans Buddhism, and other "gentlemen" who read that crap and believe that.

They wrote bullshit about Buddhism.

But do I care? Probably I don't.

That site is outrageous, eh? Eh.

The truth. Yes, it is matters, that is why I state it: guys from christian sites do not know what Buddhism is, all what they got is their "western" view at the eastern teaching.

Result - they don't get it, however they dare to show their ignorance by "answering" questions they don't even understand. This is the truth.

The Bible? Hmm... it is not the ultimate reference, it isn't the oldest of the Holy Books, it should not be valued more than others. Unless you want to blindly follow somthing.

Then go ahead - stone pagans to death, because this is what the Bible tells to do.

The Bible, written by humans, by Jesus' followers about whome he said they didn't have enough faith, who wrote different stories and were ignorant. The book written by followers who failed to understand the master.

And look at the result, look what it cause and what is causes?

"Following Buddha" - just this title says "the author is an ignoramus, disregard this page".

...

"The truth. Yes, it is matters, that is why I state it: guys from christian sites do not know what Buddhism is, all what they got is their "western" view at the eastern teaching."



You are COMPLETELY over-generalizing. And for you to assume that ALL Christians turn a blind eye to the truth and reason for all other religions is ARROGANT.

Just because you don't BELIEVE that we could possibly fathom Buddhism, and STILL disagree with it, does not mean that it is true.

What purpose would it serve for me to say that I understood Buddhism and disagreed with it, if I didn't ?

Do you think I did not spend as much time, if not more, seeking out the "truth" of our universe, before I came to the undeniable conclusion that Christianity was the truth ?

Why is it that everyone who is NOT Christian just assumes that we must be morons, because NO ONE with intelligence would fall for such a scheme ?

Perhaps it is YOU that has not done enough research, because there is nothing I have seen amongst these threads that adequately refutes Christianity.

You throw out false claims, and irrelavant comparisons to other religions, which do nothing but show YOUR lack of understanding for Christ's life, his purpose, God, and the Bible.

You piously claim that scientific data that is presented in defense of Christianity bears no merit, yet YOUR scientific data defending the LACK of existence of an omnipotent being is no more conclusive, in my opinion.

I would stake my life on the fact that the man that was a Buddhist for TWENTY years knows the philosophy and religion 100% better than you do, though there is room for interpretation, since there are 100's of derivatives, under 4 or 5 basic categories.

At any rate, your vehement rejection of my links doesn't hold water....and merely serves to show that Buddhists can get angry, too.

I hope you feel better now.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Happy Ugly Boy:

I think you dreadfully misunderstand the definition of 'pagan,' if you suggest that a pagan view is dominant on this forum. Misguided and skeptical atheism is strongest here, I believe - very few Christians like yourself.

SST

pa·gan

One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.

One who has no religion.

A non-Christian.

A hedonist.

A Neo-Pagan.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pagan

I think that adequately describes the point I was trying to make. I do not see a dreadfully misunderstood idea of what is taking place on this forum, and who is involved.

Sorry, but I have a pretty good grasp of the English language, and am very careful with the words that I choose to use to describe other people.

Hope that clarifies.

^then explain buddhism.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I would stake my life on the fact that the man that was a Buddhist for TWENTY years knows the philosophy and religion 100% better than you do

It is remarkable, you know nothing about me, and you make such conclusions.

... a monk is wise not because his hair is white...

Yes, I am pleased because I will not waste my time trying to teach you, or to change your mind.

The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with them.

The truth cannot be taught.

Have fun without me.

...

Digital_Savior:

From that very same dictionary reference:

quote:[Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, "country-dweller," "civilian," from pagus, "country, rural district." See pag- in Indo-European Roots.]

And further down...

quote:Pagan was the name given to idolaters in the early Christian church, because the villagers, being most remote from the centers of instruction, remained for a long time unconverted.

The next sentence is a definition of the modern perversion of the word - which, as a characteristic of the nature of the modern world, deems it unintelligible, irrelevant, and, with your permission, subject to omission.

No disrespect intended - you seem intelligent, however misguided - but I think taking a closer look at the context of the words you choose reveals that your grasp of the English language is not quite as close as you'd hoped.

Calling most Totse members idolatrous, self-serving hedonists, I'll allow. Hell, I'll even allow Neo-pagans for some. But don't place one group with all the rest as if we were all the same. There's much more to the ancient faiths that predate the doctrine of the Nazarene than I think you're willing to understand.

Hope that enlightens.

SST

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

Digital_Savior:

From that very same dictionary reference:

[Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, "country-dweller," "civilian," from pagus, "country, rural district." See pag- in Indo-European Roots.]

And further down...

quote:Pagan was the name given to idolaters in the early Christian church, because the villagers, being most remote from the centers of instruction, remained for a long time unconverted.

The next sentence is a definition of the modern perversion of the word - which, as a characteristic of the nature of the modern world, deems it unintelligible, irrelevant, and, with your permission, subject to omission.

No disrespect intended - you seem intelligent, however misguided - but I think taking a closer look at the context of the words you choose reveals that your grasp of the English language is not quite as close as you'd hoped.

Calling most Totse members idolatrous, self-serving hedonists, I'll allow. Hell, I'll even allow Neo-pagans for some. But don't place one group with all the rest as if we were all the same. There's much more to the ancient faiths that predate the doctrine of the Nazarene than I think you're willing to understand.

Hope that enlightens.

SST

And you post this as though I do not recognize the fact that many words in our language have a multitude of origins, derivatives, contexts, and meanings.

I do realize that, but the definition I gave is supremely the definition intended when I used the word 'pagan' to begin with.

You can refute that until death, but that is no more provable than anything else said on this forum.

Taking my wording out of context does not rape it of it's meaning. You perceive what you will...that is your burden, not mine. My concept of the definition I gave in regards to this particular word, in the particular context it was given, is appropriate, and correct.

As for generalizing, I don't believe I have ever made the assumption that EVERY single person on this site is the same..that would be moronic, which I am not. (contrary to popular belief)

To the people I was referring to, the title 'pagan' was VERY appropriatre, and vice a versa.

Do I need to list names every time I use terminology like that, so as to avoid any confusion ?

Are there athiests here ? Yes. Are there muslims ? Probably. Satanists ? Probably not. But one thing is for sure, a mystifying conglomeration of religions, beliefs, and theology's coincide here, and for the most part, they all fall victim to the definition of 'pagan', which I presented. ("all" being used loosely)

Please explain how I am misguided. I am interested in your point of view (honestly)...because I am either not conveying myself properly, or you are obtuse.

(or am I misguided because I am Christian ?)

And are you insinuating that I do not recognize/understand the teachings of the Christian faith, as written prior to the coming of Jesus ? (law of Moses, the geneologies, the struggle of the Hebrews in and out of Egypt, etc.)

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

^then explain buddhism.

Do you want that in one sentence, or two ? *grins*

This is like asking me to explain Christianity on this forum...in 10 years I could not scratch the surface. (no one really wants to listen, anyway)

Buddhism is intricate, though simple. How would you like me to explain it ? Give me a platform, and I will do my best. (textbook definition vs. actual life experience)

I do not claim to be the leading authority on this subject, either...but again, I say I will do my best.

What about you ? How would YOU explain it ?

Please explain how I am misguided. I am interested in your point of view (honestly)...because I am either not conveying myself properly, or you are obtuse.

(or am I misguided because I am Christian ?)

And are you insinuating that I do not recognize/understand the teachings of the Christian faith, as written prior to the coming of Jesus ? (law of Moses, the geneologies, the struggle of the Hebrews in and out of Egypt, etc.)

I'm certain your knowledge of Semitic mythology is more accurate than mine tenfold. But when I speak of the wisdom before the birth of Yeshua, son of Miriam and Panthera, and before the Council of Nicea's decrees, I speak of the wisdom of Northern warriors and sages, who speak directly to the only gods I would ever pay heed, let alone guide me to triumph.

I suppose I have been obtuse, especially considering my lack of a thorough explanation of my beliefs.

Out of respect for the purpose of this thread - the discussion of Buddism [sic] - I suggest a new thread, dedicated to an honest, open-ended discussion, free of personal malice and subjective contempt, of the difference in the views of a devoted Christian and a radical Traditionalist.

I shall call this thread "On the Tiger and the Lamb."

SST

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Do you want that in one sentence, or two ? *grins*

This is like asking me to explain Christianity on this forum...in 10 years I could not scratch the surface. (no one really wants to listen, anyway)

Buddhism is intricate, though simple. How would you like me to explain it ? Give me a platform, and I will do my best. (textbook definition vs. actual life experience)

I do not claim to be the leading authority on this subject, either...but again, I say I will do my best.

What about you ? How would YOU explain it ?

you are a sad little man, even though you are a woman.

buddhism is best explained thusly: hold on, i'm scratching my head.

How am I sad ? You still have not explained that...

I don't agree with you, and that makes me sad.

I am a Christian, and that makes me sad.

I am an adversary to you, and that makes me sad.

I was abused in many ways as a child, and have no reason to believe in a God that would allow such things to happen, and that makes me sad.

I have an issue with uncontrollable anger, and that makes me sad.

I am a proud, HARDworking mother of 3, and that makes me sad.

I have delved deeply into several different religions prior to coming to Christ, and that makes me sad.

I am a 5'2", 3rd generation Irish lass, and that makes me sad.

I am a network administrator for a leading IT company, outsourcing for a leading healthcare facility in Northern Arizona, and that makes me sad.

I have been married twice, love my dog, and PRAISE JESUS....does that make me sad, too ?



You don't know me. Try not to judge me. I have offered this same respect to you.

^i was not judging you in any way, i was being silly when i wrote that. although in hindsight, i may have done it with the subconscious intent of provoking some sort of reaction in order to better gauge the type of person that you are.

... in which case, you bought it hook, line, and sinker - divulging personal information in such a manner that judgement of your character is greatly facilitated henceforth.

especially considering that you continue to dodge relevant points by trying to steer any debate away from damaging arguments and towards your point of view. either you do not give any one enough credit to think that they may possibly have a more solid reasoning process, or you are so confused by certain points that you choose to neglect them altogether.

let me say it as clearly as possible: my post was a koan.

Careful how noisily you tread, Eil...I gave that information up willingingly, and not so much for you, but for the other readers. It has long tickled my mind that perhaps my ideals and beliefs would not strike others as so far-fetched if they actually understood from whence these beliefs come.

Nothing I divulged gives leeway for criticism, nor scrutiny, so your seeming attempt to goad me into baring my soul was no more your doing than it was my own.

I was making a point, not necessarily answering yours.

You have more viciously taunted me in the past (consquently before you knew I was a woman...now your posts are less aggressive, though still as insulting, which is your mission, it seems), so why would I expect any less of you now ?

Which relevant points have I been dodging ? Do you realize that the Christian to non-Christian ratio on this forum is astoundingly sleighted ? I have so much to reply to, that for me to miss a few responses is understandable, in my opinion.

Raise the points I have missed, once again, so that my feeble mind may recall. I will do my best to answer them.

I have in no way INTENTIONALLY avoided ANY posts...not my style.

And I have yet to see anything that could be remotely construed as "damaging" in regards to my beliefs (or the proof which I believe to support the existence of) in God.

I don't think of each person's reasoning on this site in levels, or degrees. I find myself no more capable of reasoning and deduction than anyone else. I think it boils down to perception (of facts, of science, of history, of life), so to think this is the reason why some posts have not been answered is incorrect.

I have also not found myself confused (in any sense of the word) by the posts on totse.com. Perplexed as to how some have come about, yes...confused as to their meaning, NO.

Anything else ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Anything else ?

Yes, "Better than a thousand hollow words Is one word that brings peace" - Buddha

And what word would that be ?

"Ignorance" ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

if it is truth, that is all that matters

I have to say that is one of the best comments I have seen in this whole forum. The truth does not need anyone's agreement to be the truth.



However, you will still have to decide for yourself what is true.

[This message has been edited by woodlander (edited 07-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The ultimate reference ? The Bible.

Only if you prefer not to think for yourself.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You don't know me. Try not to judge me. I have offered this same respect to you.

...^

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I would stake my life on the fact that the man that was a Buddhist for TWENTY years knows the philosophy and religion 100% better than you do

...^

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Careful how noisily you tread, Eil...I gave that information up willingingly, and not so much for you, but for the other readers. It has long tickled my mind that perhaps my ideals and beliefs would not strike others as so far-fetched if they actually understood from whence these beliefs come.

Nothing I divulged gives leeway for criticism, nor scrutiny, so your seeming attempt to goad me into baring my soul was no more your doing than it was my own.

I was making a point, not necessarily answering yours.

You have more viciously taunted me in the past (consquently before you knew I was a woman...now your posts are less aggressive, though still as insulting, which is your mission, it seems), so why would I expect any less of you now ?

Which relevant points have I been dodging ? Do you realize that the Christian to non-Christian ratio on this forum is astoundingly sleighted ? I have so much to reply to, that for me to miss a few responses is understandable, in my opinion.

Raise the points I have missed, once again, so that my feeble mind may recall. I will do my best to answer them.

I have in no way INTENTIONALLY avoided ANY posts...not my style.

And I have yet to see anything that could be remotely construed as "damaging" in regards to my beliefs (or the proof which I believe to support the existence of) in God.

I don't think of each person's reasoning on this site in levels, or degrees. I find myself no more capable of reasoning and deduction than anyone else. I think it boils down to perception (of facts, of science, of history, of life), so to think this is the reason why some posts have not been answered is incorrect.

I have also not found myself confused (in any sense of the word) by the posts on totse.com. Perplexed as to how some have come about, yes...confused as to their meaning, NO.

Anything else ?

just one thing. what's the point? what's the point of existence, if the protagonist and head beneficiary of the divine master plan is also its designer? is the universe really just a metaphysical exercise in narcissistic masturbation?

Perhaps, but who are YOU to say, "Daddy, why did you make me ?"

You are simply 'the created', whether you like it or not.

Whether you agree with the reasons or not.

Whether you understand (though there is no possible way for a human to fully understand the inner-workings and inclinations of God)

or not.

It's not up to YOU...and that is why I believe non-Christians choose to believe that there is no God.

Pride...man's downfall.

By the way, if He is the beneficiary, then we are blessed. This means He is pleased with His creation, and loves us more than we could fathom.

I would be wary of a God that hated me.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Perhaps, but who are YOU to say, "Daddy, why did you make me ?"

You are simply 'the created', whether you like it or not.

Whether you agree with the reasons or not.

Whether you understand (though there is no possible way for a human to fully understand the inner-workings and inclinations of God)

or not.

It's not up to YOU...and that is why I believe non-Christians choose to believe that there is no God.

Pride...man's downfall.

but it is up to me. all that you just stated is irrelevent to my prior post, incoherent, and utterly refutable. which is exactly what i am going to do - refute it.

first of all, i never said 'daddy why did you create me?' that presupposes the existence of 'daddy', which i don't. i said, paraphrased, 'why does everything exist if it is only for the benefit of one singular and finite aspect of it?' for example, why would an atom of hydrogen exist billions of light years away from us in a nebulous cloud of stardust which we will never sense or perceive if it is all for the benefit of a single carpenter human being that lived 2000 years ago and had no concept of what hydrogen, atoms, and nebulas are?

secondly, i am not simply the 'created'. i am a human being, who you yourself would not deny possesses free will. as such, i am also a creator. in this capacity, i provide the best evidence for the existence of a divine current in the proceedings of existence. and yet it is this very right of mine to question, to acknowledge and nurture my curiousity, that you attack. the most brilliant light that has ever shown from the human soul emanates from the pragmatic hope that objective ingenuity might redeem all who wander in the dark.

you say that you would be wary of a god that hates you, and i agree. however, i am equally skeptical of a mysterious god that loves me more than i could 'possibly fathom'. i would rather love than be loved. if he loves me this much and is omnipotent, why can i not experience that same level of feeling?

It wasn't irrelevant...you asked me what the point was, and I answered by saying that you do not ask your parents why they made you...the point IS, that they DID make you.

The purpose of all creation was not for a carpenter, born in Bethlehem. We are the purpose of the creation, while we ARE the creation, and Jesus was sent as an eternal sacrifice.

How do YOU know he didn't know what these scientific measurements and titles were ? Because he didn't mention them in the Bible ? Suppose he is the son of God, and God knows all things...wouldn't it be reasonable to think that Jesus would understand such intricacies ?

It was not relevant to his purpose on earth...so why would he talk about it ?

You are a creator of what ? Another human ? A gas turbine engine ? Who created YOU ? And who created those that created you ? And who created them ? (i am really asking...not rhetoric)

I question and nurture my curiosity everyday. Do you think I don't ask God questions ? (rhetorical) Do you think I blindly believe everything the Bible says ? (rhetorical) I have just as much instinct to reject what I cannot see, touch, and feel with the 5 senses I have been born with as everyone else does.

I had just as much doubt as anyone else on the planet that an omnipotent being really exists.

What made/makes it real to me, and I am sure many Christians (of every flavor) feel the same, is that I have felt Him in my soul. Do you believe we have souls ?

The reason God's love is not fathomable to humans is that we are not capable of such emotion. In such, TRUE understanding of the meaning of God's love is not attainable. It has no earthly description. But we can relate what we know of human love to God, and that in itself should be sufficient.

Many things in the Bible are there to show such relation...God, to the church, is what the institution of marriage between man and woman is, for example. It is our belief that He uses human institutions (such as marriage) to develop a sort of analogous relationship between He and us.

For you to rather 'love than be loved' is what every Christian seeks to do. To live as Christ did, to sacrifice self for others, is precisely the goal of our short lives on this planet. I am happy you said that. (not in the sense that I feel 'I have won one for the team', but that you have some understanding of where I am coming from)

He offers the opportunity to experience what you will, but you have to accept the reality of His existence to begin with. It is not after it has been proven to you that you can experience, it is after you experience that it will be proven.

If you feel I have been attacking you, I am going about things the wrong way, and I apologize. It is not my intention to put you at arms.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-15-2004).]

first of all, i never said 'daddy why did you create me?' that presupposes the existence of 'daddy', which i don't. i said, paraphrased, 'why does everything exist if it is only for the benefit of one singular and finite aspect of it?' for example, why would an atom of hydrogen exist billions of light years away from us in a nebulous cloud of stardust which we will never sense or perceive if it is all for the benefit of a single carpenter human being that lived 2000 years ago and had no concept of what hydrogen, atoms, and nebulas are?

First of all, I think she referred to your actual biological father, and asking him, "Daddy, why did you create me?"

Second of all, what the hell do hydrogen atoms and nebulae have to do with spiritual development? How useless would a Messiah be if he spoke of the behavior of light as both waves and particles while lepers lay sprawled, face down in the mud and Roman cohorts sought to crucify Him?

If you're really determined to see a connection, read the Pauli/Jung letters, published as Atom and Archetype, to see some cosmic choreography.

secondly, i am not simply the 'created'. i am a human being, who you yourself would not deny possesses free will. as such, i am also a creator. in this capacity, i provide the best evidence for the existence of a divine current in the proceedings of existence. and yet it is this very right of mine to question, to acknowledge and nurture my curiousity, that you attack. the most brilliant light that has ever shown from the human soul emanates from the pragmatic hope that objective ingenuity might redeem all who wander in the dark.

1. You may pride yourself in being a creator, but what do you do except rearrange a select few things within the universe - that which God has already created long before your birth?

2. You think that, simply because you don't know everything about the universe yet pride yourself in trying hard to change it, 'fact' by insignificant 'fact', you are the avatar of divine consciousness? Review your position carefully - it will be an important lesson in humility.

you say that you would be wary of a god that hates you, and i agree. however, i am equally skeptical of a mysterious god that loves me more than i could 'possibly fathom'. i would rather love than be loved. if he loves me this much and is omnipotent, why can i not experience that same level of feeling?

Because you, with your beloved free will, choose not to.

Tyrant - are you a Christian, or not ? Your posts confuse me. One moment I think you relate to me, and the next...

Or, forget titles...what do YOU believe ?

I believe you're drowning in the dogma lake and you need to pull yourself out, I was once there too.

Try something different for a day, like jogging a few miles, going to a random place, with a different attitude towards people, and as for what they think of you, it's ok because they'll never have to see you again. Experiment, play around with your life. It just might be worthwhile. Go to a restaurant you'd never go to, a movie you'd never see, play a game you'd never play, Dance around to music in your room using no known dance moves whatsoever, go nuts, just do something different for the sake of it being a new experience only...

I know there's a lot people who would call things SINNING and things we should NEVER EVER DO but I don't frequently hear about things we SHOULD do to enjoy life and open ourselves up? I think new experiences can only be beneficial if you really go for it. The only thing you have to lose is fear really...

Personally if I were Jesus or Buddha, I'd smile at the world brighter if people would drop the dogma shit and start living life. Some of us are already dead and don't know it.

[This message has been edited by Fuck (edited 07-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Tyrant - are you a Christian, or not ? Your posts confuse me. One moment I think you relate to me, and the next...

...^

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

it is truth, that is all that matters

...^

[This message has been edited by Sniper (edited 07-15-2004).]

I am definitely a free-spirited person by nature. I moved to a coniferous forest recently (the first small town I have ever lived in) for a change of pace...

Living outside of a metropolitan city is new to me, and I love it. I just bought my first dog (I used to think they were just messy, smelly, and useless), and am having a great time teaching her not to poo in the house.

I went rock climbing for the first time a few weeks ago.

Don't tell me I need to try and live my life, because as a Christian I couldn't possibly be doing that.

I am still an individual. Still creative. Still a mother, a lover, a fighter, a poet, a dreamer, and a paradox.

A Christian.

If you were truly free spirited, I don't think you'd call yourself a christian or even follow a christ, I think you'd follow spirit.

I wasn't TELLING you how to live your life (Don't worry, I'm no bible-writer) just suggesting a few things because you come off as a whiny depressed trapped mind, still drowning in dogma.

And yes, you still seem to be drowning in dogma. Someone throw this one a lifejacket!

Whiny and depressed ? What is your basis for comparison ?



*laughs*

Tyrant - are you a Christian, or not ? Your posts confuse me. One moment I think you relate to me, and the next...

Or, forget titles...what do YOU believe ?

Let's put it this way: I was a Christian long enough to know how to explain it.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

first of all, i never said 'daddy why did you create me?' that presupposes the existence of 'daddy', which i don't. i said, paraphrased, 'why does everything exist if it is only for the benefit of one singular and finite aspect of it?' for example, why would an atom of hydrogen exist billions of light years away from us in a nebulous cloud of stardust which we will never sense or perceive if it is all for the benefit of a single carpenter human being that lived 2000 years ago and had no concept of what hydrogen, atoms, and nebulas are?

First of all, I think she referred to your actual biological father, and asking him, "Daddy, why did you create me?"

Second of all, what the hell do hydrogen atoms and nebulae have to do with spiritual development? How useless would a Messiah be if he spoke of the behavior of light as both waves and particles while lepers lay sprawled, face down in the mud and Roman cohorts sought to crucify Him?

If you're really determined to see a connection, read the Pauli/Jung letters, published as Atom and Archetype, to see some cosmic choreography.

secondly, i am not simply the 'created'. i am a human being, who you yourself would not deny possesses free will. as such, i am also a creator. in this capacity, i provide the best evidence for the existence of a divine current in the proceedings of existence. and yet it is this very right of mine to question, to acknowledge and nurture my curiousity, that you attack. the most brilliant light that has ever shown from the human soul emanates from the pragmatic hope that objective ingenuity might redeem all who wander in the dark.

1. You may pride yourself in being a creator, but what do you do except rearrange a select few things within the universe - that which God has already created long before your birth?

2. You think that, simply because you don't know everything about the universe yet pride yourself in trying hard to change it, 'fact' by insignificant 'fact', you are the avatar of divine consciousness? Review your position carefully - it will be an important lesson in humility.

you say that you would be wary of a god that hates you, and i agree. however, i am equally skeptical of a mysterious god that loves me more than i could 'possibly fathom'. i would rather love than be loved. if he loves me this much and is omnipotent, why can i not experience that same level of feeling?

Because you, with your beloved free will, choose not to.

Tyrant, you're a pompous fool. you took my post completely out of context. it was a specific rebuttal of digital_savior's assertion that we are merely the subordinate creations of a divine consciousness who feels nothing but benevolence towards us.

the only thing about your tedious post that i appreciate is that i can quote you in one big lump instead of piece by piece to dismiss your conceited ramblings. you like to see your nonsensical, irrelevent thoughts in type, don't you?

p.s. - well, unfortunately, i must respond to this specific part, where you state that because i 'rearrange' things already created, that i am not truly a creator. that is so stupid. thank you. bye.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



For you to rather 'love than be loved' is what every Christian seeks to do. To live as Christ did, to sacrifice self for others, is precisely the goal of our short lives on this planet. I am happy you said that. (not in the sense that I feel 'I have won one for the team', but that you have some understanding of where I am coming from)

of course i understand where you are coming from, digital_savior, i was raised christian and am a student of psychology and comparative spirituality. however, your claim that to love rather than to be loved is what every christian seeks to do is obviously fallacious. in fact, i would go so far as to say that the majority of self-professed 'christians' seek the opposite. such hypocrisy is probably true of any belief system (though specific statistics don't exist of course).

i have attained higher levels of enlightenment and deep, true spiritual fulfillment now than i ever did as a christian.

with that said, i back down from engaging you in further debate, digital_savior. contrary to your understanding, my 'pedantic' approach, digital_savior, is nothing more than cheekiness, for the sake of my own amusement. if i should stumble upon some genuine intellectual stimulation on these forums, i absorb it ravenously, digital_savior. but, digital_savior, since you seem unable to intuitively discern the true intent behind my 'assertions,' i will not discuss theology with you any further, digital_savior. nothing personal, digital_savior, it's just not fun for me anymore. is that wrong?

Once again, because I don't see eye to eye with someone on this website, they refuse to speak to me.

Perhaps that is just fear...fear of coming closer to truth than people are comfortable with.

Nothing about your posts is cheeky. You're a jerk, for the most part, plain and simple. For someone who claims to have reached this heightened state of enlightmenment, you sure aren't any different than any of the other hateful pagans out there.

You cannot be a "christian once". Either you became saved, and are rebelling (in which case, you are STILL a Christian, whether you like it or not), or you dabbled in it for a while (even years) without any real understanding of God, and without having a relationship with Him. In that case, it is no wonder you were not able to remain true to Him once life got tough.

This isn't about finding enlightenment. It's about doing what you're supposed to do, and even from the age of zygote, we (as humans) resist that with all our might.

"Don't touch that stove, Timmy...it's hot." What is little Timmy gonna do ? He's not gonna touch it, until mommy is not looking. When he gets burned, he will realize mommy was right, but he is still gonna light some paper on fire, specifically because mommy told him not to. He'll get burned again, but it doesn't occur to him that this is because hot is hot, and mommy will always be right about such things.

It is our nature to rebel, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this is why you don't want to talk to me anymore. It has nothing to do with the fact that I don't understand you...believe me, I was once a pagan, too. I am still human, and still have the desire to do the things that God has asked me not to do. I am not better than you, but no worse. I choose to try and live the way God has designed us to live, and why that makes me an idiot (according to you, and many others on this site), I have yet to discover.

I think you just don't want to admit that you're wrong.

If you've found a greater spirituality since taking another path, then ask yourself where you get that spirituality to begin with. Why do you even seek it, if it is not in your nature to desire such things ?

You want to live for yourself...your way. That's common, but it won't get you into heaven, and it sure as hell won't find you happiness here on earth.

Suit yourself. You can converse with all the other people on this forum that SHARE your opinion.

That ought to be stimulating enough for you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Once again, because I don't see eye to eye with someone on this website, they refuse to speak to me.

Perhaps that is just fear...fear of coming closer to truth than people are comfortable with.

..^

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I think you just don't want to admit that you're wrong.

..^

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And what word would that be ?

"Ignorance" ?

..^

?

it's true, those Christian websites totally misrepresented Buddhism...

not that I'm Buddhist or anything, but it's the truth

The ex-Buddhist misrepresented Buddhism ? *laughs* Ignorance is bliss !

They didn't misrepresent Buddhism...I'm also ex-Buddhist, and they represented it rather accurately, atleast Theravada Buddhism (the original and atheist Buddhism).

Thanks, Optimus. I know you don't agree with me (about Christianity), so it makes your opinion even more valuable that the information presented and it's accuracy is true.

Appreciate the objectivism.

quote:Originally posted by Knave:

it's true, those Christian websites totally misrepresented Buddhism...

not that I'm Buddhist or anything, but it's the truth

If you're not a Buddhist, how would you know ? (just curious)

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:Theravada Buddhism (the original Buddhism)

Theravada Buddhism appeared 200 years after Buddha Gautama's death.

Theravada Buddhist consider their way and their understanding of it the original Buddhism, all other interpretations they consider to be wrong.

For them only "Theravada" Buddhism is right.

However in different countries there are different views of Theravada Buddhists at enlightment and becoming free from the endless circle of deaths and births. Very different.

In some countries Theravada Buddhists who want to become free from karma are supposed to stay away from common people and their community, in other countries they do live among common people and bring them the light of truth.

That is a contradiction inside Theravada Buddhism.

"The Original"... the original..? 200 years after Gautama's death..?

Do you still think it is the original? Hardly.

Is it possible to talk about "originality" when Gautama always said he had not created a path, but had found the way.

... original..?

...

And now I think "why am I posting this?"

One knowing something about Buddhism will be able to understand how twisted the texts on the Christian sites are.

Of course if you don't care, you can just trust anyone who says "I was a Buddhist, I know", but was everyone saying that a Buddhist?

Who is a Buddhist?

What is being a Buddhist?

Ex-Buddhists should be able to answer those questions, if they were Buddhists.

Remarkable how some people are ready to trust anyone claiming to have experiance.

But does experiance matter? Or should I ask, does the time a person spent following, or trying to follow and understand religion matter? Especially if a person abandoned it. Abandoned. Just quit.

What knowledge such person have? Attempts to understand and abandoning without any results.

It is not hammering nails, it is religion. You can learn the Bible by heart (I am mentioning the Bible, but any Holy Book can be used in this example), but if you do not understand what is written there, the time you have wasted doesn't matter.

...

Big post, some will take advantage and disregard points I made here... shame...

...

What if he became ex-Buddhist because he misinterpreted Buddhism, and now he writes shitty files for Christian sites, made for ignorant folks who can't think for themselves.

What do they do when they have questions? Ask God? The Bible? What for? There is internet! There are plenty of sites like christiananswers.net or bible.com full of total bullshit. Ignorance online. I can't even say these sites are "Christian" but rather made by people who think they are Christians.

...

Originally I was addressing Optimus Prime...

Oh, almost forgot - atheism Buddhism?

Just "quit" ?! Did you even read the paper he wrote ? He was a Buddhist for 20 years. Finally realizing that what you believe in is fallacy is NOT just quitting.

He finally understood truth. Why is that such a crime ? Why does that become grounds to discredit him ?

He no longer believes in Buddhism...and after 20 years, I'd say that was an educated decision. He admits that he was deluded.

If people on this site would shut up long enough to actually "hear" what other people are saying, it just might make sense to them.

I use sites to reference my points because I cannot put my extensive personal library through a computer monitor for 100's of people to see.

If I sat here typing everything I read, I'd never live my life. The internet is a quick reference, and you can refute the validity of the Christian websites all you want, but the truth is that you have no more proof that they are wrong, than you do that you are right.

When are you going to realize that this isn't about knowledge, and who is right and wrong ?

This is about who created you, and who you are to acknowledge for that. It's about where you are going when you die, and if you are content with going to hell, then that is up to you. Don't try and take everyone else with you !

According to your words Buddhism is delusion?

Unlike you I am not referring people to ignorant sites made for weak-minded sheep, but ask them questions and send them to look for answers inside themselves.

None can help you if you don't help yourself.

One should follow his own way, a way of an individual, not a sheep in a herd, not blindly obeying and becoming a zombie, but reasoning.

If one doesn't think, what for does one have head?

Save your own soul.

I am not going to hell or trying to make someone go there.

Let everyone have a choice, free choice, let one follow his will.

If it is Buddhism - let it be Buddhism.

I never said that people shouldn't have a choice...God gave us that choice, and I believe wholeheartedly that everyone should have that right.

What I am saying is that the original post asked 'why not Buddhism', and I posted experiences of ex-Buddhists to show the reason 'why not'. Apparently, only Buddhists are allowed to share their views on Buddhism on this thread. (according to you)

It is easier for you to assume that Christians, in particular ME, are mindless sheep. That is so far from the truth that it is obvious you know nothing about Christianity, God, and what the true elements of the 'religion' entail.

If you were forced to acknowledge that we all made our choice, based on sound judgement, empirical deduction, and intelligent thought, you would have to question whether or not YOU have given it enough thought yourself. To say, "You're just stupid, so it's obvious why you would believe in God." is obtuse, at best.

To not consider that as a possiblity is erroneous, and shows your lack of ability to objectively view the world, and therefor, your opinion is jaded and should not be considered.

I have never once questioned the intelligence or soundness of mind of those that choose NOT to believe in God, or follow Christianity. I don't believe that has a damn thing to do with it.

You need to find a better line of reasoning to support your opinions. You sound like a bigot.

"STOP WHINING." - Arnold Schwartznegger

"Who is your daddy, and what does he do?" - Arnold Schwarzengger

*smiles at inquisitor*

There wasn't even a hint of whining in my post.

Bugger off.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Apparently, only Buddhists are allowed to share their views on Buddhism on this thread. (according to you)

No, I never said that.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It is easier for you to assume that Christians, in particular ME, are mindless sheep. That is so far from the truth that it is obvious you know nothing about Christianity, God, and what the true elements of the 'religion' entail.

... thou shalt not judge.

I dob't have any particular interest in YOU or what you follow. It is your way, not mine.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That is so far from the truth that it is obvious you know nothing about Christianity, God, and what the true elements of the 'religion' entail.

Ha, look at this, you say it yourself:

It is easier for you to assume that and that

and

That is so far from the truth that it is obvious you know nothing about that and that.

You pooint out that the easiest way is to assume, though this easy way of assuming is the way from that truth, not to it.

Well, a person who would read those files will assume what Buddhism is as well, or should I say will assume how bad Buddhism is.

Is that the truth?

Those sites aren't "neutral" or "Buddhist", they are Christian and the files are aimed at making people follow Christianity, thence you should never take anything they host as the ultimate truth.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

To not consider that as a possiblity is erroneous, and shows your lack of ability to objectively view the world, and therefor, your opinion is jaded and should not be considered.

... thou shalt not judge.

Humans cannot view the world objectively, they view it from humans standpoint.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I have never once questioned the intelligence or soundness of mind of those that choose NOT to believe in God, or follow Christianity. I don't believe that has a damn thing to do with it.

... I don't know if you never questioned, I can't check if you didn't question, I don't care much, it is up to you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You need to find a better line of reasoning to support your opinions. You sound like a bigot.

... since you make such conclusion, you should state what kind of bigot am I.

I can call you a bigot yourself, and the reason would be your acting like a "messiah" or savior in this board, spreading Christian point of view, often giving links to deceitful ignorant material, claiming that the board is "full of atheists", laughing in the Satan thread (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/002810.html), etc.

Oh, now you probably think I am a Satanist, before I bet you thought I was an Atheist.

I am saying it sucks that you laughed, because you laughed at a thing some people believe in, and your post was outrageous, just like the post of Zman, who showed himself like immature little kid, or if he is old, then he is ignoramus.

If he is young for he might change for the better.

Maybe in addition to Bible you need to learn what respect is.

edit: yes, you are whining.

[This message has been edited by Sniper (edited 07-23-2004).]

Well, someone should post this: http://www.buddhanet.net/

Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I would stake my life on the fact that the man that was a Buddhist for TWENTY years knows the philosophy and religion 100% better than you do

I know this probably doesn't address me. But I was a born buddhist. I was immersed in the culture and dogma. I know it 100% better than you ever DID. just because you failed to come to peace within this faith doesn't mean it is false. Just because your desperate attempts at settling your sould didn't cling to buddhism, does not make it inferior. You could have done all the research you want, but until you spend at least a year in a temple, as a westerner you have to idea of the depth of the religion. just as you said it would take 10 years to explain christianity here, it would take you twice taht time to scratching the surface of buddhism. race shouldn't play a big part in faith, but it does, especially for buddhism, seeing as how you were raised a white girl means you come from a completely different worldview than 90% of real buddhists.

I also don't see where you come off of trying to illigitamize my faith with hypocrisies in the dogma and unsure history of it's founder. (pot just called the kettle black). look at your own faith before you attack another on the same basis that others attack christianity. your feverishly defend christianity even though people have attacked it quiet a bit better than you could ever question buddhism.

oh and some of your original links don't work, I really do want to read them all.

however links of ex-buddhists who shunned the lifestyle in favor of christianity is hardly profound evidence of anything but that buddhism didn't work for them.

Anyone could post hundreds of links of ex-christians who are now jews,muslims,buddhists,jainists, etc. it still doesnt mean shit.

aTribeCalledSean

Have you ever read The Doctrine of Awakening by Julius Evola? I find it to be an adequate analysis of Buddhism's most archaic traditions. Just wondering what a born Buddhist would think of it.

no i haven't but i'll look into it.

someone else, maybe you, mentioned it in another thread.

quote:Originally posted by HappyUglyBoy:

why not?



Before you even consider Buddhism you should visit a temple or monastery and speak with the monks, only do somthing like this if you're dedicated 100%, don't be impulsive. I'm an impulsive person and it's gotten me in trouble.