These are some of my cognitive oppositions to Christianity:

1. Christianity is born in Semitic lands, addresses Semitic people, and forms Semitic law. I am not a Semite; therefore, Christianity is not the manifestation of archetypal supernature appropriate for my life and my people.

2. Christianity is not a functional religion of guidance through life. Every precept of Christianity teaches to completely reject the joys of life, for they are sins and temptations, and anyone who falls victim to their comforts must seek atonement. While I do understand that the physical and contingent plane of becoming is not a permanent, and therefore not a worthwhile, goal, the roots of spiritual ascension must come from sound physical appreciation.

3. Any man willing to follow a religion that forces him to his knees deserves to do so in a guillotine.

4. Weakness is not an admirable trait in anything, much less a human being.

5. A religion that bases its appeal on personal compassion and motherly nurturing as much as Christianity is the second of four stages of dissolution, and must be replaced by a solar spirituality that guides a man out of ultimate righteousness, not personal appeal.

6. A true man does not repent for something for which he is not sorry; he stands to his deeds.

That's all I can muster for now; more will come as the discussion ensues.

Your turn, DS.

SST

Finally a well writen rebuttal against Christianity, Im used to the "Dirty Bird" tactic....you know, "Fly in from a faraway Land, take a dump on your car and then fly away!"

quote:1. Christianity is born in Semitic lands, addresses Semitic people, and forms Semitic law. I am not a Semite; therefore, Christianity is not the manifestation of archetypal supernature appropriate for my life and my people.

It seems to work for everybody else! Russia (Greek Orthodox),Phillipines(Catholic), Mexico(Catholic),Europe(Every Christian Represented), South America(Catholic)...etc.

If these Christians(Loosely refering to Catholics) were peddeling the Old Testament, I could see your point. Parts of the New Testament are aimed specifically at Gentiles. So therefore I dont buy your point.

quote:2. Christianity is not a functional religion of guidance through life. Every precept of Christianity teaches to completely reject the joys of life, for they are sins and temptations, and anyone who falls victim to their comforts must seek atonement. While I do understand that the physical and contingent plane of becoming is not a permanent, and therefore not a worthwhile, goal, the roots of spiritual ascension must come from sound physical appreciation.

Im sure thats how every Athiest views it. The Bible advocates a Moderate lifestyle. Some of those "Pleasures" become "Vices." I started a thread on how God is not against Sex, "Catholic Preists are Queer".

quote:3. Any man willing to follow a religion that forces him to his knees deserves to do so in a guillotine.

A God that doesnt demand that doesnt deserve my respect.

quote:4. Weakness is not an admirable trait in anything, much less a human being.

Last I knew, it was harder to say No to a Naked Girl than to say,"Yeah, lets get it on". Denying your Carnal drives is a sign of inner stregnth and dicipline, not weakness!

No matter what kind of Infidel out there, they all practice "The Path of Least Resistance." What does this mean? It means every time your body craves something....you satisfy it...everytime its hungry, you get up and feed it. Over the course of time, youre become slave to your own body.

quote:5. A religion that bases its appeal on personal compassion and motherly nurturing as much as Christianity is the second of four stages of dissolution, and must be replaced by a solar spirituality that guides a man out of ultimate righteousness, not personal appeal.

In laymans terms please....

quote:6. A true man does not repent for something for which he is not sorry; he stands to his deeds.

Outwardly he appears Stedfast, but inwardly he knows he's gonna stand before his maker and give an account.

Murphies Law: "Theres no such thing as an Athiest in a foxhole!"

Awesome, Tyrant ! To these I will reply...they are all well-thought, legitimate concerns/points. I have thought of them myself, prior to my conversion to Christianity.

I cannot reply at this moment, but I wanted you to know that I have seen them, and will answer them to the best of my ability.

Until then, adieu...

It seems to work for everybody else! Russia (Greek Orthodox),Phillipines(Catholic), Mexico(Catholic),Europe(Every Christian Represented), South America(Catholic)...etc.

If these Christians(Loosely refering to Catholics) were peddeling the Old Testament, I could see your point. Parts of the New Testament are aimed specifically at Gentiles. So therefore I dont buy your point.

Perhaps I should be a bit more clear on my point; I am currently recovering from an illness, so my mind is not as sharp as I hoped.

I believe, as Carl Jung did, that each culture manifests, in its own forms, various archetypes that seek to guide a person in his or her life, identifying particular roles in existence, symbolizing relationships and trials, etc. Due to the unconscious variability of the contexts of these archetypes, each culture's myth is therefore appropriate for that culture.

I am of Celtic and Scandinavian heritage. The deeds of Cuchulainn, the words of Wotan, the valor of Sigurd, and the honor of Beowulf are the representatives of hero and fatherhood archetypes. They are of Celtic/Nordic origin, and are therefore more acutely parallel to my patterns of thought.

Christianity, born on Palestinian soil and forged in Hebrew consciousness, unfolds the destiny and prophecy of Hebrews. Its doctrine of global evangelism also betrays this imperative point of theology designed for a specific heritage (not to mention being the catalyst for the decimation of pagan temples and clans).

Im sure thats how every Athiest views it. The Bible advocates a Moderate lifestyle. Some of those "Pleasures" become "Vices." I started a thread on how God is not against sex, "Catholic Preists are Queer".

The morals behind the story of Job seems to direct otherwise. Granted, this isn't one of my strongest points, but I never understood the concept I received of a god who would create a physical world only to command mankind to reject it.

A God that doesnt demand that doesnt deserve my respect.

Closely related to my previous point, a God that created the totality of existence with adoration and assumed benevolent, unconditional love would not demand this, if not as a token of this love, then simply out of a lack of necessity for such submission.

Last I knew, it was harder to say No to a Naked Girl than to say,"Yeah, lets get it on". Denying your Carnal drives is a sign of inner stregnth and dicipline, not weakness!

I agree. Rejecting the indulgence in carnal desires to its own end is a testament to strength. However, for the greater part, weakness is praised amongst those who follow the Creed of the Galilean. Be poor in spirit; be chaste; be a lamb without voice in the hands of executioners; flee to the desert; give up thy flesh and thy spirit to Him; suffer; believe.

No matter what kind of Infidel out there, they all practice "The Path of Least Resistance." What does this mean? It means every time your body craves something....you satisfy it...everytime its hungry, you get up and feed it. Over the course of time, youre become slave to your own body.

An inarguably deplorable condition, I agree.

In laymans terms please....

The principle of cyclical history, common to all religions.

Hinduism (http://www.soulwise.net/25h-cdn.htm):

Satya Yuga (Golden age)

-Characterised by virtue, wisdom, and religion, there will be practically no ignorance and vice. It is called the golden age. In this age people live for a hundred thousand years. It was very suitable for self-realisation because people could perform prolonged meditation...

Treta Yuga (Silver age)

-In this age vice is introduced. It is called the silver age and people live for ten thousand years. Self realisation can be achieved by performing great sacrifices...

Dvarpara Yuga (Bronze age)

-There is an even greater decline in virtue and religion, vice increase. People live for one thousand years in this age and self realisation is reached by worship of the Lord...

Kali Yuga (Iron/Dark age)

-In Kali Yuga there is an abundance of struggle and strife, ignorance, vice and ir-religion, true virtue being practically non-existent. The duration of life in Kali Yuga is one hundred yeras and the recommended process of self-realization in this age is hearing and chanting of the Holy Name of the Lord. Vice increases to such a point in this Yuga that at the termination of Yuga the Supreme Lord Himself appears as the Kalki Avatar, vanquishes the demons, saves his devotees and commences another Satya Yuga. Then the process begins again...

Christianity (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Daniel+2%3A+31-45&x=0&y=0):

Thou, O King, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

-Daniel 2:31-45

There is a similar cyclical prophecy in Norse paganism preceding the Twilight of the Gods, also known as ragna-rokkr, or Ragnarok, but much fewer details are given of these ages.

The silver age is characterized by the principles of the moon - it carries only the fragments and reflections of the light of the sun. Just as the moon only glows with its dependence upon the sun, so only do lunar religions such as Christianity thrive by its peoples' dependence on its theological rewards (id est doing right not out of the virtue of its righteousness, but out of the fear of its unholy consequences).

Belief in Christianity, therefore, signifies acquiescence to a dissolving of the values of ancient civilizations, marked by solar spirituality, such as the Graeco-Roman Mithra/Helios cult, Akhnaton's Religion of the Disk, et cetera.

Hahaha not exactly layman's terms, but this is not exactly a subject that can afford excessive simplification.

Outwardly he appears Stedfast, but inwardly he knows he's gonna stand before his maker and give an account.

Understandable for a man forever born a coward. However, which is more noble; a man who regrets all his actions because of their presumed 'sinful nature,' who spends his whole life in repentence of an automatic a priori sinful legacy; or a man who performs righteous acts without hesitation or remorse, who acts according to holy virtues without self-deprecation?

No offense, of course. =)

SST

very interesting stuff, but i have a question i hope you can help me with tyrant. I've read some jung and have a fairly good understanding of the unconcious theory you speak of. but i am half asian (viet and chinese to be exact) and half white (irish, german, french, and english) so what are my gods?

do i go with the toaist god's of honor and compassion? or to trace vietnamese blood back one would find it to be pretty much half chinese (or cetral asian) and half indoneasian/philipino/pacific islander. does that mean that the tribal god's of the islanders also pertain to me?

and that's only half of it. because then i gotta deal with the the celtic god's and the germanic god's and the such. it's a good idea, and i don't discredit it, i'm just having trouble seeing it in practice with those of mixed race, especially like me with my races being so different. it's not too bad if your german and french cause then you have the basic germanic bloodlines.

what about a half black, half white kid? cause there are huge religious differences between the african spirits and the european gods.

on top of that, all of humanity came from africa, then asia and europe, so shouldn't we all have african subconcious?

aTribeCalledSean:

very interesting stuff, but i have a question i hope you can help me with tyrant.

...

cause there are huge religious differences between the african spirits and the european gods.

Well, Jung didn't pay much attention to a person's individual ethnic background. Let's discuss the idea of the ego's struggle with dark, chthonic forces in the unconscious, and in many cases, the subsequent "fall." This idea reappears consistently throughout every culture in history.

Examples:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>The Biblical Ben Elohim, "the children of the gods," who mated with the "daughters" of men," with the consequence that in the end, "all mortals led depraved lives on earth." (Gen. 6:4-13)

<LI>The Platonic myth of the inhabitants of Atlantis, conceived as the descendants and disciples of the gods, who lost the divine element and eventually allowed their human nature to become predominant because of their repeated intermingling with human beings.

<LI>The Norse Aesir against the Elementarwesen.

<LI>The Olympians and the heroes against giants and monsters of the darkness, the water, and the earth.

<LI>The Aryan deva fighting agaist the asura, "The enemies of the divine heroes."

<LI>The Incas, the dominators who impose their solar laws on the aborigines who worshipped "Mother Earth."

<LI>The Tuatha de Danaan, who, according to Irish legends overcame the dreadful race of the Fomors.

<LI>The Babylonian Marduk ensnaring the demon Tiamat within the four winds.

<LI>Jesus's temptation with the Satan.

<LI>Job's trials of Satanic wrath.

<LI>Prometheus' theft of fire earning him the wrath of Zeus.

<LI>Loki's guidance of Hodur's arrow to Baldur's ankle, chaining him beneath a venomous serpents fangs.

</UL>

Same story, different language.

As far as culture is concerned, I think the intermingling of races falls in the same category as the involution of castes: a consequence of the current age, the Kali Yuga, and the prelude to the coming of a tremendous spiritual - and perhaps physical - apocalypse.

on top of that, all of humanity came from africa, then asia and europe, so shouldn't we all have african subconcious?

No, we didn't; therefore, no, we don't.

Ok, i'm not even gonna try to be an authority on this, but last i checked we had traced our DNA back to africa, as in everyones. The first homosapiens came from africa, eventually migrated north, and thats where europeans and asians split off, coming about at the same time. then some asians moved over to the americas thus eskimos, amerindians, and aboriginal south americans. i'll look for links and post em, cause i'm pretty sure i'm fairly correct, unless your denying it by some religious means. or because you wanna protect your ever-so-sacred aryan blood from the thought that it ever stemmed from dirty negroe blood? sorry if that seems a bit presumptious but it is the reason alot of people don't like the idea.

aTribeCalledSean, I am aware that i am not Tyrant, but let me put in my 2 cents anyway.

Why should ethnicity be a factor where your choice of belief is concerned ?

You seem to view religions as so many goods available at your local supermarket, which you have to choose from according to what you learn from their labels, and to your personal taste.

You are normally born into a religion, that of your parents. If your parents don't have the same religion, then you will probably have to choose between them at majority.

If you feel unable to follow your parents' religion then chances are you will enter another one. Obvious enough.

quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

1. Christianity is born in Semitic lands, addresses Semitic people, and forms Semitic law. I am not a Semite; therefore, Christianity is not the manifestation of archetypal supernature appropriate for my life and my people.

Christ did not address Jewish people specifically. Christianity was not meant specifically for semites. I always thought that was obvious.

quote:2. Christianity is not a functional religion of guidance through life. Every precept of Christianity teaches to completely reject the joys of life, for they are sins and temptations

This is not correct, in my opinion. What precept of Christianity would tell you not to go hiking in the mountains, or to savor your food, or to love your family ?

quote:3. Any man willing to follow a religion that forces him to his knees deserves to do so in a guillotine.

Being forced to your knees is one thing. Doing so of your own volition and in recognizance of the fact that you - either of us - are not the highest power in existence is another. I am sure there is more to be said about this but I don't feel up to it right now.

quote:4. Weakness is not an admirable trait in anything, much less a human being.

True, but neither is a propensity to or easy use of violence.

quote:5. A religion that bases its appeal on personal compassion and motherly nurturing as much as Christianity is the second of four stages of dissolution, and must be replaced by a solar spirituality that guides a man out of ultimate righteousness, not personal appeal.

Compassion reminds me more of the Buddha than of Jesus Christ. Motherly nurturing, if not practised by mothers, doesn't either seem to me an element originally included specifically in Christianity. It makes me think more of some of today's politically correct flavors of Christianity.

quote:6. A true man does not repent for something for which he is not sorry; he stands to his deeds.

I don't think there can be any repentance without seeing "the error of your ways", whether or not you are a "true man".

Tell us more about that "solar spirituality" ?



Edited a few typos.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-02-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-03-2004).]

Tyrant,

First off, I believe this archetype business should not be overdone. Jung's theory of archetypes still is a theory, it is not absolute truth, and I believe there are limits to its validity. AFAIK, Jung saw archetypes as forces acting or contained in the subconscious (or the collective subconscious ?) and I don't believe his theory applies to Christianity (I am talking about the teachings of Christ, not the ways and creations of men). Christianity does not rely on archetypes.



quote:Originally posted by Tyrant:

[quote] Hinduism (http://www.soulwise.net/25h-cdn.htm):

This is a little misnomer. Hinduism which is an overall term for today's Indian religions did not exist before some point early in the first millennium. The four yuga's are AFAIK written about in some ancient religious book, maybe one of the Veda's ?

quote:The silver age is characterized by the principles of the moon - it carries only the fragments and reflections of the light of the sun. Just as the moon only glows with its dependence upon the sun, so only do lunar religions such as Christianity thrive by its peoples' dependence on its theological rewards (id est doing right not out of the virtue of its righteousness, but out of the fear of its unholy consequences).

Seeing an analogy between the Silver Age and the moon is in my opinion a not so valid and a rather shallow comparison, because what should the Bronze Age then be compared with ? There is no planet to satisfy an analogy with bronze.

Calling Christianity a "lunar religion" then appears not to be correct.

quote:Belief in Christianity, therefore, signifies acquiescence to a dissolving of the values of ancient civilizations, marked by solar spirituality, such as the Graeco-Roman Mithra/Helios cult, Akhnaton's Religion of the Disk, et cetera.

This is somewhat misleading, as the Mithra cult did not endure very long (it existed AFAIK at the time of early Christianism but did not withstand its competition, and the sun worship introduced by Akhnaton did not even outlive him. So you can hardly assimilate these cults with the "values of ancient civilizations" which were not overly characterized by "solar spirituality".

Apollo, the Greek sun god, was just one god in their pantheon.

In conclusion, seeking to establish a parallel between Christianity replacing the values of ancient civilizations and the sequence of the yugas doesn't seem to be correct to me.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

aTribeCalledSean, I am aware that i am not Tyrant, but let me put in my 2 cents anyway.

Why should ethnicity be a factor where your choice of belief is concerned ?

You seem to view religions as so many goods available at your local supermarket, which you have to choose from according to what you learn from their labels, and to your personal taste.

You are normally born into a religion, that of your parents. If your parents don't have the same religion, then you will probably have to choose between them at majority.

If you feel unable to follow your parents' religion then chances are you will enter another one. Obvious enough.



uhhh i think you got me all wrong bro. If you read any of my other posts you will see I am a fairly strong buddhist. Yes it is my cultures religion, but I did start as a catholic. I wasn't asking tyrant what religion i should be based on my ethinicity, i was asking him how Jungs archaic theory pertains to me, seeing as how i am of many different races. So no, I wasn't window browsing religions, i was asking him how jungs theory applied to me. read his post and mine a little more carefully before you propose such things about me.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



uhhh i think you got me all wrong bro. If you read any of my other posts you will see I am a fairly strong buddhist. Yes it is my cultures religion, but I did start as a catholic. I wasn't asking tyrant what religion i should be based on my ethinicity, i was asking him how Jungs archaic theory pertains to me, seeing as how i am of many different races. So no, I wasn't window browsing religions, i was asking him how jungs theory applied to me. read his post and mine a little more carefully before you propose such things about me.

Oh, sorry for having proposed "such things about you... http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

I don't think I got you wrong. You wrote this :

quote:very interesting stuff, but i have a question i hope you can help me with tyrant. I've read some jung and have a fairly good understanding of the unconcious theory you speak of. but i am half asian (viet and chinese to be exact) and half white (irish, german, french, and english) so what are my gods?

You seemed to want to know what your Gods were, and my reply was pretty clear, but of course you have to read AND understand it.

And I am replying again : your ethnic origins do not come into the picture, neither do archetypes or that so-called African original subconscious of yours.

You believe what you believe.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

You seemed to want to know what your Gods were, and my reply was pretty clear, but of course you have to read AND understand it.

And I am replying again : your ethnic origins do not come into the picture, neither do archetypes or that so-called African original subconscious of yours.

You believe what you believe.





I am buddhist. I am not shopping for faiths. I wanted to know how my ethnic background fits into Tyrants Archetypal scenario. I'm not an idiot, like i said, if you see any of my other posts in MGCBTSOYG than you will see im pretty rooted in buddhism.

I was just curious as to how Tyrants sub-concious scheme works with those of extremely mixed race. read it again, think about context.

Tyrant,

First off, I believe this archetype business should not be overdone. Jung's theory of archetypes still is a theory, it is not absolute truth, and I believe there are limits to its validity. AFAIK, Jung saw archetypes as forces acting or contained in the subconscious (or the collective subconscious ?) and I don't believe his theory applies to Christianity (I am talking about the teachings of Christ, not the ways and creations of men). Christianity does not rely on archetypes.

Christianity does not rely on archetypes? Please, say it again so I can laugh some more. Read up on 'archetypal heros'...every single polytheistic religion has gods that fit the archetypal hero; every single monotheistic religion has a prophet that fits the archetypal hero; atheistic religions have a human who fits the archetypal hero. The Bible is full of archetypes, as are the teachings of Christ, as are the churches and foundations men have created to worship Christ.

In conclusion, seeking to establish a parallel between Christianity replacing the values of ancient civilizations and the sequence of the yugas doesn't seem to be correct to me.

It seems perfectly correct to me. Studying the timelines of religous evolution, the religions that predate Christianity were based more around personal strength and enlightenment...the people were more in tone with themselves and took pleasure in the world. With the rise of Christianity, a religion that teaches denial of the primal urges, humanity began to weaken its sense of personal strength in favor of the ideal of salvation. No longer do we rely on ourselves to make it through life; we become weak, we become subserviant, all in the hope that in the end we reach salvation. I'd say there's a clear parallel between the yugas and Christianity's rise.