This happens to me from time to time and it's always torturous when I force myself to contemplate it, and since misery loves company, I am posting here.

I'm an agnostic. I don't necessarily believe in a God, nor do I believe in an afterlife, or any sort of intelligent design. Basically no belief system whatsoever.

My problem is death. Everything in life can be explained away by science and reason, and the things that can't be aren't worth considering, in my opinion. But at the end of it all we get to the one thing that hasn't been explained at all: death and what happens afterwards.

I know I'm going to get two schools of people responding, so in an attempt to pre-empt them, I will respond to them.

"mook when you die your mind ceases functioning and you cease to be". This is what I believe right now. Although I think it's the most likely, it's also the least attractive.

"mook when you die you go to <heaven/nirvana/reincarnated/hell> and live happily ever after". The best possible outcome, but also the least likely, when you consider that all that we feel is just neurochemical impulses.

I know for a fact that nobody is going to be able to help me with this, and it's just something that I'm going to have to come to terms with myself, but I just want to know where you stand on what happens after we die. This is the one thing that scares me to death (pun?), and I want to know what everyone else thinks.

Mook,I understand exactly how you feel.I've had the same thoughts myself. After much consideration , I have come to believe (based purely on my own reasoning)that there is nothing after you die.I know this is kind of hard to accept. It's difficult to imagine no longer existing.It's actually kind of scary.The thing is,when you are dead,your mind dies also.You no longer have consciousness.

You didn't exist before you were born.That realization shouldn't frighten you.Why should not existing after you die upset you?

These are merely my own personal thoughts on the subject. I have no way of knowing for certain whether or not I am correct.It is just the most reasonable answer in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Mook,I understand exactly how you feel.I've had the same thoughts myself. After much consideration , I have come to believe (based purely on my own reasoning)that there is nothing after you die.I know this is kind of hard to accept. It's difficult to imagine no longer existing.It's actually kind of scary.The thing is,when you are dead,your mind dies also.You no longer have consciousness.

You didn't exist before you were born.That realization shouldn't frighten you.Why should not existing after you die upset you?

These are merely my own personal thoughts on the subject. I have no way of knowing for certain whether or not I am correct.It is just the most reasonable answer in my opinion.



If you continue to feel that way, for the rest of your life, then i sincerely hope that you are right. If you are right, it would be as you said, nothing to fear.

If the Judao-Christian belief is right (by "if" and "belief" i'm speaking from a worldly reference), then following that teaching leaves nothing to fear either.

Right now some aspects of the Greek afterlife seem likely to me based on my beliefs. I do think that there is a spirit in all of us, whether it be a soul or some type of karma or an "inner spirit". Anyways I think that after we die this "spirit" floats in an other realm, not exactly a heaven or a hell, but more like a permenant purgatory. Here you feel neither pain nor pleasure, you're free to do what ever, but you won't enjoy anything, yet at the same time you can't fell saddness, regret, or longing. I also think that no matter what type of life you lead you will end up here. Though there are a few things that I still have to think about on this matter, but that is the gist of my beliefs.

I also think that the afterlife will be different for everybody, also there can't really be much debate on this matter, as no one here has ever experienced the afterlife, but when we do reach it there will be no point to debate, so all of this talk is really subjective.

This is the best reasoning I can find behind any for of "after life" and other aspects. Please bear in mind this comes from Dr. Anton Levay, AKA, The Black Pope(Creator Of Modern Satanism/Humanism).

The quote is from The Satanic Bible, 1976 edition. Found in the (Air); Book Of Lucifer, The Enlightenment.

quote:

LIFE AFTER DEATH

THROUGH FULFILLMENT

OF THE EGO

MAN is aware that he will die, someday.

Other animals, when nearing death, know

they are about to die; but it is not until death is certain that the animal senses his

coming departure from this world. And even then he does not know exactly what is

entailed in dying. It is often pointed out that animals accept death gracefully, without

fear or resistance.

This is a beautiful concept, but one that only holds true in cases where death for the animal is unavoidable.

When an animal is sick or injured he will fight for his life with every ounce of strength he has left. It is this unshakable will to live that, if man were not so "highly evolved", would also give him the fighting spirit he needs to stay alive.

It is a well known fact that many people die simply because they give up and just don't care anymore. This is understandable if the person is very ill, with no apparent chance for recovery. But this often is not the case. Man has become lazy. He has learned to take the easy way out. Even suicide has become less repugnant to many people than any number of other sins. Religion is totally to blame for this.

Death, in most religions, is touted as a great spiritual awakening - one which is prepared for throughout life. This concept is very appealing to one who has not had a satisfactory life; but to those who have experienced all the joys life has to offer, there is a great dread attached to

dying. This is as it should be. It is this lust for life which will allow the vital person to live on after the inevitable death of his fleshly shell.

History shows that men who have given their own lives in pursuit of an ideal have been

deified for their martyrdom. Religionists and political leaders have been very crafty in laying their plans. By holding the martyr up as a shining example to his fellow men, they eliminate the common sense reaction that willful self-destruction goes against all animal logic.

To the Satanist, martyrdom and non-personalized heroism is to be associated not with integrity, but with stupidity. This, of course, does not apply to the situations which involve the safety of a loved one. But to give one's own life for something as impersonal as a political or religious

issue is the ultimate in masochism.

Life is the one great indulgence; death the one great abstinence. To a person who is satisfied with his earthly existence, life is like a party; and no one likes to leave a good party. By the same token, if a person is enjoying himself here on earth he will not so readily give up this

life for the promise of an afterlife about which he knows nothing.

The Eastern mystical beliefs teach humans to discipline themselves against any conscious will for success so they might dessolve themselves into "Universal Cosmic wareness" -anything to avoid good healthy self-satisfaction or honest pride in earthly accomplishments! It is interesting to note that the areas in which this type of belief flourishes are those where material gains are not easily obtainable. For this reason the predominant religious belief must

be one which commends its followers for their rejection of material things and their avoidance of the use of labels which attaches a certain amount of importance to material gains.

In this way the people can be pacified into accepting their lot, no matter how small it may be. Satanism uses many labels. If it were not for names, very few of us would understand anything in life, much less attach any significance to it; - and significance compels recognition, which is something everyone wants, especially the Eastern mystic who tries to prove to everyone he can meditate longer or stand more deprivation and pain than the next

fellow.



The Eastern philosophies preach the dissolution of man's ego before he can produce sins. It is unfathomable to the Satanist to conceive of an ego which would willfully choose denial of itself.

In countries where this is used as a sop for the willingly impoverished, it is understandable that a philosophy which teaches the denial of the ego would serve a useful purpose - at least for those in power, to whom it would be detrimental if their people were discontented. But for

anyone who has every opportunity for material gain, to choose this form of religious thought seems foolish, indeed!

The Eastern mystic believes strongly in reincarnation. To a person who has virtually nothing in this life, the possibility that he may have been a king in a past life or may be one in the next life is very attractive, and does much to appease his need for self-respect. If there is nothing in

which they can take pride in this life, they can console themselves by thinking, "there are always future lives." It never occurs to the believer in reincarnation that if his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather, etc. had developed "good karmas", by their adherence to the same beliefs and ethics as his present ones - then why is he now living in privation, rather than like a maharajah?

Belief in reincarnation provides a beautiful fantasy world in which a person can find the

proper avenue of ego-expression, but at the same time claim to have dissolved his ego.

This is emphasized by the roles people choose for themselves in their past or future lives. Believers in reincarnation do not always choose an honorable character. If the person is of a highly respectable and conservative nature, he will often choose a colorful rogue or gangster, thereby fulfilling his alter-ego. Or, a woman who has much social status may pick a harlot or

famous courtesan for the characterization of herself in a past life.

If people were able to divorce themselves from the stigma attached to personal egofulfillment, they would not need to play self-deceitful games such as belief in reincarnation as a means of satisfying their natural need for ego-fulfillment.

The Satanist believes in complete gratification of his ego. Satanism, in fact, is the only religion which advocates the intensification or encouragement of the ego. Only if a person's own ego is sufficiently fulfilled, can he afford to be kind and complimentary to others, without robbing himself of his self-respect. We generally think of a braggart as a person with

a large ego; in reality, his bragging results from a need to satisfy his impoverished ego.

Religionists have kept their followers in line by suppressing their egos. By making their followers feel inferior, the awesomeness of their god is insured. Satanism encourages its members to develop a good strong ego because it gives them the self-respect necessary for a vital existence in this life.

If a person has been vital throughout his life and has fought to the end for his earthly existence, it is this ego which will refuse to die, even after the expiration of the flesh which

housed it.

Young children are to be admired for their driving enthusiasm for life. This is

exemplified by the small child who refuses to go to bed when there is something exciting

going on, and when once put to bed, will sneak down the stairs to peek through the curtain and watch. It is this child-like vitality that will allow the Satanist to peek through the curtain

of darkness and death and remain earthbound.

Self-sacrifice is not encouraged by the Satanic religion. Therefore, unless death comes as an indulgence because of extreme circumstances which make the termination of life a welcome relief from the unendurable earthyl existence, suicide is frowned upon by the Satanic religion. Religious martyrs have taken their own lives, not because life was intolerable for them, but to

use their supreme sacrifice as a tool to further the religious belief. We must assume, then, that

suicide, if done for the sake of the church, is condoned and even encouraged - even though

their scriptures label it a sin - because religious martyrs of the past have always been deified.

It is rather curious that the only time suicide is considered sinful by other religions is when it comes as an indulgence.



I copied it from the .pdf I got, and it didn't copy the spaces so I just broke it down info paragraphs. Be it they appear like they do in my .pdf, I do not know.



Though, this comes from anothe religion then your own, it may help you explain just why people believe in different beliefs when it comes to death, and may help you understand just what you truely believe, and hope to be true.



It's common to be afraid of death; afraid of the unknown, but also remember that it is not important where you go or how you go, it's the legacy you leave behind - the friends, family, stories, the help you gave -that truely matter.

[This message has been edited by Gyhth (edited 07-18-2004).]

Acceptance of death is not easy for most but is doable. You have not accepted death if you say "screw it" and start murdering and raping everyboby in sight. If you can accept dieing without bothering about what happens afterwards you can live quiet a good life.

So, Mook, accept death as death. You may just blink out or you may go to the second option with many slashes, but you should not cause yourself suffering by worrying about the future, enjoy the moment, but do it in a way that you will not regret it later.

Hopeful this helps.

Einstein on the Mysterious

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear-that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.

It seems to me that not falling back on the easy answers of religion in the face of death is the bravest thing that there is.

Sorry, had to mention it: 1000th post!

it IS pretty freaky to go your whole life without the fallback emotional support of a nice benevolent God watching over you in times of need.

Mook did you mean Agnostic (no religion) or Atheist (no God)?

Well, i think that "going" somewhere after you die would cause an invisible shift of energy. And if matter = energy, then there would be an imblalance of matter in the universe: that which you can see, and that which you can't.

But once i read that scientists discovered that 90% of the universe is dark matter, or anti-matter (not 50%, as you would expect) and if i'm remembering right, they couldn't explain where it came from or how come it doesn't imbalance things.

So maybe the 10% of true matter is the world of the living, and the 90% of dark matter, or anti-matter, is the nether world of the dead, or not yet living.

That's what logic tells me, but my heart tells me that when you die, it is just dispersal and nothingness and nonexistence.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

The one thing that is certain is that we are all going to die.

What is more important is the issue of how you will live your life today. Knowing that your time here on earth is limited means there is little of it to waste.

It will take quite a bit of time for you to accept that there is nothing, it sounds pretty bleak but it will give you an appreciation for life either that or you'll become pessimistic until you die.

Think of it though, look at the Buddhist point of view, nothing is much better than anything else.

[This message has been edited by Keltoiberserker (edited 07-18-2004).]

It IS bleak, and highly improbable. If there is nothing, there is no point in living, since you would only be living for yourself, and what does that amount to ?

Debaucherous fun?

I've been coming along just fine, maybe others don't do as well as I.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It IS bleak, and highly improbable. If there is nothing, there is no point in living, since you would only be living for yourself, and what does that amount to ?

If there is nothing after we die then the only point of life that I can perceive is to enjoy myself as thoroughly as possible, hence: hedonism.

^^^ but you must first understand what it is that you will enjoy instead of agreeing on what others say you will enjoy.

quote:Originally posted by Mojo Hojo:

^^^ but you must first understand what it is that you will enjoy instead of agreeing on what others say you will enjoy.

Everybody knows what they enjoy; even if society tells them what to enjoy, that pleasure is real. It is most likely societal influence that made me enjoy 2 lesbians making out (see my post in S&A), but that pleasure was very real.

Before I say anything I'd like to say that xtreem5150ahm made a good point. That is, if you don't believe in the existence of a soul then death would be like being born in reverse - you cease to exist just like you didn't exist before birth. If you believe in the existence of a soul, then you've got heaven, reincarnation, both, or some other continuing existence to look forward to. No need to be scared of death either way http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Personally I believe in the existence of the soul and therefore "life after death". I've been reading a lot about Near Death Experiences recently. Have a read of this site, scrolling down to "Scientific theories explaining NDEs" (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html). There are a list of scientific (non spiritual) explanations for NDEs, and the problems with each argument the author of the site has. I know this thread isn't about NDEs, but I think it's relevant as the NDE phenomenon is all about what happens after we die.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

[B]"mook when you die you go to <heaven/nirvana/reincarnated/hell> and live happily ever after".[B]

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

As a Christian, I have no real reason to fear death. I don't necessarily look forward to it, either. But when it happens, it happens. It's something everybody has to come to terms with at some point in their lives, Atheists/agnostics moreso than those with a definate belief.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree. I didn't become an atheist until I had already accepted death as something I couldn't escape...as something pointless to fear.

A few people have said "well, life after death would be just like life before birth if you don't believe in an alternate life".

The problem is that when I die, I'll know there are two things: life, and death. And the former is definitely preferable to the latter. When I was born, I was unconscious prior my awakening (for lack of a better word), so I had nothing to compare anything to. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

Gyth, thank you for posting that. It put many things into perspective for me.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Everybody knows what they enjoy; even if society tells them what to enjoy, that pleasure is real. It is most likely societal influence that made me enjoy 2 lesbians making out (see my post in S&A), but that pleasure was very real.

I mean as in; if you feel you will enjoy killing somebody, you must first understand that this enjoyment is most likely short term while in the long term you will suffer dearly from whatever. Though people don't directly say it it is implied by the media with all those action movies.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

but I just want to know where you stand on what happens after we die. This is the one thing that scares me to death (pun?), and I want to know what everyone else thinks.

My fear of dying is quelled by the notion that after my flame of consciousness fizzles out when my brain dies, there will no longer EXIST the capacity for Fear, so it's all a wash anyway. Consider the idea of fear cancelled out just as soon as it comes to fruition.

Without that functional vehicle (my brain) to house my consciousness, there is no ego there to choke me up and "scare me to death". If it only truly matters while I'm alive, then Death seems like less of a formidable inevitability and more like a Law of Nature (huge metaphor) that just can't be rebelled against, overthrown, or broken. To not even waste precious thought on it is to squash out that unnecessary Fear.

or at least that's how I rationalize it.