if God is so merciful, how can he just send a soul to hell for all ETERNITY?

i'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, i'm just wondering what your thoughts on this are

quote:Originally posted by Knave:

if God is so merciful, how can he just send a soul to hell for all ETERNITY?

i'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, i'm just wondering what your thoughts on this are

along with being merciful, He is also just.

He told us to obey Him and none of us have, but He sent His Son, to die (and go to hell) in our place.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

along with being merciful, He is also just.

He told us to obey Him and none of us have, but He sent His Son, to die (and go to hell) in our place.



xtreem, I guess I missed that part of the bible.Where exactly does it say that Christ dies and goes to hell in our place?

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:



xtreem, I guess I missed that part of the bible.Where exactly does it say that Christ dies and goes to hell in our place?



... there's no such part... hmm... I smell sarcasm in your post...

quote:Originally posted by Knave:

if God is so merciful, how can he just send a soul to hell for all ETERNITY?

i'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, i'm just wondering what your thoughts on this are

When the Bible says that those in Hell are damned to eternal flame and damnation, it doesn't mean literally eternal, because the only way to eternal life is through Christ. Basically it is your soul burns until it can't burn anymore, and then you basically cease to exist.

quote:Originally posted by Discipulus:

When the Bible says that those in Hell are damned to eternal flame and damnation, it doesn't mean literally eternal, because the only way to eternal life is through Christ. Basically it is your soul burns until it can't burn anymore, and then you basically cease to exist.

How does one determine which parts of the bible are to be taken literally?I'm just curious. I've been involved in very lengthy discussions concerning this subject. If you must take it literally that God created the world and everything else in six days,made woman from a rib out of Adam,and covered the entire earth in flood, how can you not take eternal damnation literally?

Because, if you have "eternal damnation" then you have eternal life, beit a terrible one, it's still eternal. Bible doesn't say "eternal damnation" it just says "damnation into eternal fire" and if you'll recall, Sodom was burned with an "eternal fire" which meant it burned until nothing was left TO burn. Scripture to interpret scripture!

Silly Human

<A HREF="http://www.dragon-tails.com/comics/040511.jpg">http://www.dragon-tails.com/comics/040511.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://www.dragon-tails.com/comics/040511.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>

atleast god gave them a place to go to..since god so loved us,he still gave a place for the sinners to go to http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:



xtreem, I guess I missed that part of the bible.Where exactly does it say that Christ dies and goes to hell in our place?





First Peter 3:18-19

15. But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

16. keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

17. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

18. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

19. through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

20. who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

i've included alittle of the surrounding text to get a feel for the purpose of this scripture and so it isnt thought of as 'out of context'

it seems to me that it is in the Bible elsewhere, more clearly, but i cant seem to find it right now, sorry; but i will keep looking. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 07-17-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Sniper:

... there's no such part... hmm... I smell sarcasm in your post...



no sniper, not sarcasm. since Eil humbled me, i have tried to cut back on my sarcasm, increase my clearity, and have tried very hard to watch how i say things (when eil pointed out that i lied, it was technically right, but i had answered someone using their own words, then a few posts later i said something that (while still true) was contridictory to the other post.

this is not to say that sarcasm http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) and mistakes cant happen again

now i smell sarcasism.

or is it bitter indignation? ...or is it... is it my feet??? what the hell is that??

uh, anyways, i agree with you, xtreem... it is either explicitly taught or indirectly implied in certain christian denominations that jesus descended into hell to fight satan and open the gates of heaven for sinners. it was in my catholic catechism, i remember the drawing on the page.

even in those that don't believe he literally descended into hell, what do you think the crucifixion symbolizes - his ascent? no, he went down before he went up... actually, IN ORDER to go up, he had to PLUNGE down first.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

now i smell sarcasism.

or is it bitter indignation? ...or is it... is it my feet??? what the hell is that??

no, not sarcasm nor indignation. infact, i am actually thankful that you (or at least anyone) called me on it, as it did make me realize that my pride was what was becoming my driving factor.

It also helped me realize that not all athiests (maybe even very few) were condeming Christianity from an ignorance of the Bible and Christian doctrine. But infact, many seem to have actually given a great deal of thought to their doubts, and present alot of valid or atleast pertinent questions.

You also taught me to (try to) stick to things i know or can reference. There is a saying: "Jack of all trades" but the rest of that saying more describes me "and master of none", reguarding my interest and knowledge.

You taught me that i really suck at arguing and debating.

And mostly, you taught me that Christians have to "dot their I's & cross their T's" much more that anyone else in TOTSE, if we are to state our beliefs, opinions, or even argue.

I have no animosity toward you, and i truely thank you for the lessons. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote: it was in my catholic catechism, i remember the drawing on the page.



WOW, that took me by surprise. If i understand you, you were raised catholic? I really figured you for an academic. maybe having taken philosophy and theology courses. Not saying that isnt true, also. I guess you reminded me of a friend i used to work with, who had taken all the courses that the University offered in the city i lived in. He was (and maybe still is) rated the second top botanist in Wisconsin. He was fun to talk to.

quote:Originally posted by Discipulus:

Because, if you have "eternal damnation" then you have eternal life, beit a terrible one, it's still eternal. Bible doesn't say "eternal damnation" it just says "damnation into eternal fire" and if you'll recall, Sodom was burned with an "eternal fire" which meant it burned until nothing was left TO burn. Scripture to interpret scripture!

No offense intended, but I cannot accept your interpretation of " damnation into eternal fire" as not meaning eternal torment.

I base my reasoning on scripture also.



Matt.25

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

[43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

[44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



everlasting = eternal.

quote:Originally posted by Knave:

if God is so merciful, how can he just send a soul to hell for all ETERNITY?



Possibly he enjoys it.

Christ never went to hell

Catholics are stupid and make these things up such as

Confessing to a priest

Purgatory

Mortal and Veinial sins

They belive the bread is ACTUAL skin from jesus

The entire catholic church just makes up rules and expects its people to follow

The only rules one should follow are the rules directly form the bible not what some evil regime makes up

quote:Originally posted by gangstafied:

Christ never went to hell

Catholics are stupid and make these things up such as

Confessing to a priest

Purgatory

Mortal and Veinial sins

They belive the bread is ACTUAL skin from jesus

The entire catholic church just makes up rules and expects its people to follow

The only rules one should follow are the rules directly form the bible not what some evil regime makes up

not actual skin you dumbass atheist..cus jesus said in his last super to think of it as him!! and we do the same thing in the holy eucharist...fuckin gangsta..

Skoolboy...I'm not shitting you here, it is part of Catholic theology that as you eat the motherfucking "manna" (aka wafer or piece of bread), it turns into the body of Christ. Not symbolically, but literally.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Skoolboy...I'm not shitting you here, it is part of Catholic theology that as you eat the motherfucking "manna" (aka wafer or piece of bread), it turns into the body of Christ. Not symbolically, but literally.

YES.. i agree. Catholisism does teach that, and so do the Lutherans. Well, actually it is called "Real Presence", and it means (according to Luthrans) that the Body and Blood of The Christ is in with and under the bread and wine. I cant remember if Catholics teach that it changes into or has "Real Presence". and right now im too lazy to look it up.

Doesn't Saint John or whatever saint is the gatekeeper to Heavens' Gate send you to Hell.

B http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)B

Hell is a pit of your own sorrows, you send yourself there.

quote:Originally posted by Discipulus:

When the Bible says that those in Hell are damned to eternal flame and damnation, it doesn't mean literally eternal, because the only way to eternal life is through Christ. Basically it is your soul burns until it can't burn anymore, and then you basically cease to exist.

That is such crap. Make sure you are educated about the Bible before you go spouting off as though you were some sort of authority on the subject.

You are simply misunderstanding...it is true, the only way to eternal "life" is through Christ, but that is only referring to "life", not "existence". That life includes residency in Heaven.

The duration of a soul is FOREVER, no matter where it ends up. There is nothing in the Bible supporting what you have said.

Souls that go to hell stay there forever.

Period.

(if you need scripture references, I can and will provide them)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-20-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Discipulus:

Because, if you have "eternal damnation" then you have eternal life, beit a terrible one, it's still eternal. Bible doesn't say "eternal damnation" it just says "damnation into eternal fire" and if you'll recall, Sodom was burned with an "eternal fire" which meant it burned until nothing was left TO burn. Scripture to interpret scripture!

Soddam was a CITY, not a soul. Wood and sand and stone can be destroyed, eventually.

quote:18. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

I am sorry, but it says that Christ died for the atonement of our sins...not that he went to hell, as humans will. You are in err, my friend.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-20-2004).]

God doesn't SEND (as in, without reason, permission, or otherwise - meaning to FORCE you) you to Hell. He says, "Follow me, and have everlasting life." or "Turn from me, and suffer eternal damnation."

If you go to hell, it was YOUR choice.

That is the price for living for yourself and your flesh, which is sinful. God cannot be in the presence of sin, so it is therefor logical that you cannot be in Heaven with Him, since you did not turn away from sin.

Christians sin, too...but we're covered by the blood of Christ (word picture), which makes us bearable in the presence of God.

God loves you, just as much as He loves Christians...He doesn't want to see ANY of us in Hell, but in order to get everyone into Heaven, He'd have to remove free will, and if your creation loves you because you FORCE it to, then it is not very fulfilling now, is it ?

Choice is YOURS.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I am sorry, but it says that Christ died for the atonement of our sins...not that he went to hell, as humans will. You are in err, my friend.



D.S. , Extreem was referring to verse 19 for the reference to Christ going to hell.While the verse can be interpreted that Christ entered hell(prison), it states that He went there to preach to the spirits there. It does not state that He went there in our place.I'm sure that the verse could be interpreted in other ways also.



.... He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

19. through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

20. who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I am sorry, but it says that Christ died for the atonement of our sins...not that he went to hell, as humans will. You are in err, my friend.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-20-2004).]

Maybe i have erred, but does verse 19 mean,

" 19. through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison "

and to include verse 20

"20. who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Maybe i have erred, but does verse 19 mean,

" 19. through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison "

and to include verse 20

"20. who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"

whoops sorry, i should read all the posts before replying.. thanks truckfixr



I have heard that the purpose that Christ went there was to declare victory, but i think that that is differant than "preaching to the spirits"

That is the difference between 'pre' and 'post' Armeggedon visitation.

Pre-visitation was for preaching to the spirits...

'Post' is to claim victory.

I agree with you, Truckfixr...Christ did go, just not under the original context in which Xtreem said he did.

I was just attempting to clarify.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-20-2004).]

I'm not sure here, but don't souls just go to hell until the End Days, where they will receive "final judgement," and then receive a "second death?" I'm very unclear on this, because as D_S said, souls last forever. Anyone have an interpretation or correction? I need to brush up on my Biblical studies...

It is easy to build on a lie. I.e. religion.

^no, it's not!!! you don't know what you're talking about! it takes a lot of creativity, a heaping dose of delusional grandeur, and a cold, black heart... you ignorant infidel.

Although terms like "heaven", "hell" and "forever" used literally irritate me greatly, I will agree somewhat with Digital_Savior (subtle nickname :P). Setting apart the scary surroundings of "sin", things are pretty simple. A sin is anything that will drive you away from your human nature which is of course in the image of God. A punishment for the sin is only the natural outcome. Hell and eternal damnation are fairytales. If you sin, you experience the punishment immediately. If you desire another man's wife, your punishment is there already, unrest and thoughts tormenting you. And of course choosing a life away from women (as saint*puke*Peter suggests) is also a sin because you are denying your human nature which is given by God. So, Knave rest assured, God is as merciful as you are to yourself.

sends jesus jesus=death equls three days of hell.three days of hell is a popular curse that works if justififable by god.if you do it to sum1 bad then they get what jesus got minus death.yay!

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

A punishment for the sin is only the natural outcome. Hell and eternal damnation are fairytales. If you sin, you experience the punishment immediately. If you desire another man's wife, your punishment is there already, unrest and thoughts tormenting you. And of course choosing a life away from women (as saint*puke*Peter suggests) is also a sin because you are denying your human nature which is given by God.

Would you please explain or give reference to the reasons why you think that hell and eternal damnation are only fairytales?

As far as being punished immediately, i would have to wonder what you think the pupose of the punishment of unrest (feeling guilty) is. Personally, i think that "feeling guilty" is more for teaching us to do what is right, not really a punishment, but more like a teaching aid, or a guiding tool.

Isn't a guide what punishment is supposed to be? How is guilt not a punishment? I sure as hell don't like it, and certainly seem like I'm being punished when I feel guilty.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

He sent His Son, to die (and go to hell) in our place.

and go to hell??? i missed that part of the bible i was taught he rejoined his father in heaven but u know best im sure the bible must be wrong...

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Isn't a guide what punishment is supposed to be? How is guilt not a punishment? I sure as hell don't like it, and certainly seem like I'm being punished when I feel guilty.

qouted from elfstone

A punishment for the sin is only the natural outcome. Hell and eternal damnation are fairytales. If you sin, you experience the punishment immediately.

i think elfstone was saying that guilt is the ONLY punishment for sin. that type of punishment (guilt) is a teaching tool.. in todays penal system, that would equate to "rehabilitation". So that type of punishment isnt so much a punishment as it is a teaching/guiding/learning tool.

I was assuming that elfstone believes in God (from how i read his post). If he believes in God, then he should believe in the 10 Commandments. The first commandment is:

You should have no other gods before me.

How often do we value things as greater than God, and not have remorse?

This is a sin! Period!

But, if we dont realize that we did this, or if we justify it in our own minds so as to have no remorse, then how can we feel guilty about this kind of sin? And if we dont feel guilty, how can guilt be used as a punishment (teaching tool)?

And God says that the wages of sin is death (eternal).

The other kind of punishment is eternal damnation. This is what is left when guilt hasnt guided us to our need for The Messiah (Jesus the Savior).

In my experience, guilt seems to be a "stepping stone" way to get our attention. And i usually ignore the "whispers" of God, and need a whack on the head to straighten me out.

quote:Originally posted by EPHEMERAL:

and go to hell??? i missed that part of the bible i was taught he rejoined his father in heaven but u know best im sure the bible must be wrong...



truckfixr said the same thing...that he missed that part in the Bible too.

I Peter 3:18-20

Jesus had to go to hell in our place, because it was OUR penalty that He paid the price for, and He did this before He rejoined the Father.

Xtreem, he wasn't implying guilt was the only consequence. If you kill someone, you either get killed or sent to prison. You steal something, you might get your ass kicked, sent to prison, killed, etc. You disrespect your parents a lot your adolescent life is going to be shit. You lie a lot, you'll betray people and end up lonely as hell. You get envious easy, you have the torment of knowing you can't have it...and if you end up TAKING it...you could get your ass kicked/killed, go to jail, be ostracized...etc.

There is no need for divine punishment; our actions have consequences...negative actions tend to have a built in punishment, positive actions tend to have a built in reward. Guilt is only there for those who have set morals, but everyone has to face the other consequences.

^ since this topic is "a question for Christians"

and since elfstone said,

"A sin is anything that will drive you away from your human nature which is of course in the image of God."

and he also said, "And of course choosing a life away from women (as saint*puke*Peter suggests) is also a sin because you are denying your human nature which is given by God. So, Knave rest assured, God is as merciful as you are to yourself."

I was assuming that elfstone believes in the Judeao-Christian God, so he should also believe in the 10 Commandments of God.

With these assumptions, it is possible to BE guilty of sins (in the eyes of God) without FEELING guilt. And also from these assumptions, since he was answering Knave, (and he pointed out that "God is as merciful as you are to yourself.") i was pointing out that this is only true if the mercy you have to yourself is faith in Jesus the Christ.

Xtreeme, I'm just saying that you don't have to feel guilty to suffer immediate consequences. I completely agree that you can be guilty of something without feeling guilt...but you sure as hell will have SOME consequence.

Our actions have consequences in this life...I really don't think a god needs to punish us, especially with something that is eternal and therefor not a learning experience, but just outright torture.

&lt;quote&gt;I was assuming that elfstone believes in God (from how i read his post). If he believes in God, then he should believe in the 10 Commandments. The first commandment is:

You should have no other gods before me.

How often do we value things as greater than God, and not have remorse?

This is a sin! Period!

&lt;/quote&gt;

What is more sinful in this case, valueing something more than God or someone creating the condition which makes everyone value other things more than God? You should not see everything in black and white my friend. Jesus was able to see the spirit of the law of Moses while the jewish priests only followed its letter. If you are hungry, you WILL value food more than God and God will not hold that against you because that is how HE made you. If people today value material things over God it is because they are deprived of them while they shouldn't. Don't be fooled by the false christian preaches that material riches and possessions are unimportant. Jesus disregarded those but in comparison with LIFE itself which is God's greatest gift.

I do believe in the ten commandments in that they are guidelines to a spiritually happy life. But to be spiritually happy, you need to be materially happy first. If that wasn't the case, Jesus would not bother feeding the crowd that rushed to hear his teachings.

The saddest thing about religion is that they focus on man's spiritual side and they forget that he is flesh and blood with needs. The outrageous thing about religion is that priests convince people of this and take advantage of them...taking money for saving your soul...

quote:Originally posted by Knave:

if God is so merciful, how can he just send a soul to hell for all ETERNITY?

i'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, i'm just wondering what your thoughts on this are

well that is a very good argument against the existence of hell, not a very good one far an argument against the existence of God. Depends what kind of God you wanna follow. The JEDP sources of the old testament? or the omnibenevolent of the new testament? or even further God is portrayed is hugely different ways with the N.T.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

along with being merciful, He is also just.

He told us to obey Him and none of us have, but He sent His Son, to die (and go to hell) in our place.

exactly what deed do you personally believe would constitute an eternity of pain and suffering. Murder and Rape are the worst things on my list, but even if i was brutally murdered, I would find it in my heart to not want that person to suffer FOREVER, just doesnt seem to be the right adjective. Try sadistic, spiteful, vengeful, hateful, asshole.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

exactly what deed do you personally believe would constitute an eternity of pain and suffering. Murder and Rape are the worst things on my list, but even if i was brutally murdered, I would find it in my heart to not want that person to suffer FOREVER, just doesnt seem to be the right adjective. Try sadistic, spiteful, vengeful, hateful, asshole.

Well, actually, one of your adjectives is (partly) right.. vengeful..

disobedience by Adam and Eve, "genetically" passed down... theologians call this "original sin".

This is the "deed". And the reason that God would punish (Adam and Eve primarily, and us secondary) for eternity, is because He is true to His word.

I think the first two commandments are the first because God is first and should be.

All the rest are rules to govern us toward each other, even though they are transgressions against God, we do live in the "here and now" and our day to day lives deal with getting along with others.

original sin is an incredibly highly debated issue. read the first chapter of genesis. what does god say after everything he makes? i think that points to original goodness a bit more than original sin.

also, original sin was created by the church, more specifically saint thomas aquinas. It was his bastard attempt at explain idiology.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

original sin is an incredibly highly debated issue. read the first chapter of genesis. what does god say after everything he makes? i think that points to original goodness a bit more than original sin.

also, original sin was created by the church, more specifically saint thomas aquinas. It was his bastard attempt at explain idiology.



Sure, "original good". But that was before they disobeyed.

Consider Gen 3:11-23 (Literal Bible with strongs reference numbers)

11. |0559| And He said, |4310| Who |5046| told |0000| you |3588| that |5803| naked |0859| you {were}? |4480| Of |6086| the Tree |0834| which |6680| I told you |1115| not |0398| to eat |4480| from |0398| you have eaten?rhetorical question

12. |0559| And said |0120| the man, |0802| The woman |0834| whom |5414| You gave |5978| {to be} with me, |1931| she |5414| gave |0000| to me |4480| from |6086| the Tree, |0398| and I ate.i know i did wrong but it wasnt my fault

13. |0559| Then said |3068| Yahweh |0430| God |0802| to the woman, |4100| What |9999| {is} |2063| this |6213| you have done? |0559| And said |0802| the woman, |5175| The snake |5377| deceived me |0398| and I ate!i know i did wrong but it wasnt my fault

14. |0559| Then said |3068| Yahweh |0430| God |0413| to |5175| the snake, |3588| Because |6213| you have done |2063| this, |0779| condemned |0859| you {are}, |3605| more than all |0929| animals |3605| and more than any other |2416| animal of |7704| the field. |5921| On |1502| your belly |1988| you will go. |6083| And dust |0398| you must eat |8605| all |3117| the days of |2416| your life.interesting that it isnt a question this time

15. |0342| And hostility |7896| I will put |0996| between you |0996| and |0802| the woman, |0996| and between |2233| your seed |0996| and |2233| her seed. |1931| He |7779| will bruise you {in} |7218| the head, |0859| and you |7779| will bruise him |6119| {at} the heel. |0413| to "between your seed and her seed" ..sounds like something is passed on (genetic?)

16. |0802| the woman |0559| He said, |7235| greatly |7235| I will increase |6093| your sorrow |2032| and your conception. |6089| In sorrow |8085| you will give birth to |1121| sons. |0413| And |0376| your husband |8669| your desire will be, |1931| and he |4910| will rule |4427| over you.punishing in reverse order to the questioning

17. |0120| And to the man |0559| He said, |3588| Because |8085| you have listened |6963| to the voice of |0802| your wife |0398| and you have eaten |6086| from the Tree |0834| about which |6680| I commanded you, |0559| saying, |3808| not |0398| You must eat |4480| from it, |0779| condemned will be |0127| the ground |5668| because of you. |6093| In sorrow |0398| you will eat from it |3605| all |3117| the days of |2416| your life.all the days of your life-- now Adam has a life span, punishment for disobedience. Also, the ground is "being punished", which i seem to remember in Revelation, that the earth must be cleansed by/with fire.

18. |6975| And thorns |1863| and thistles |6779| it will bring forth |0000| for you, |0398| and you will eat |0853| - |6212| the plant of |7704| the field

19. |2188| By the sweat of |0639| your face |0398| you will eat |3899| food |5704| until |7725| you return |0413| to |0127| the ground, |3588| because |4480| out of it |3947| you have been taken, |3588| because |6083| dust |0857| you are, |0413| and to |6083| dust |7725| you will return.

20. |7121| And called |0120| the man |8034| name |0802| his wife's |2332| Eve, |3588| because |1931| she |1961| became |0517| the mother of |3605| all |2416| living.

21. |6213| And made |3068| Yahweh |0430| God |0120| for the man |0802| and his wife |3801| coats of |5785| skin |3843| and clothed them.

22. |0559| And said |3068| Yahweh |0430| God, |2009| Listen, |0120| the man |1961| has become |0259| like one |4480| of Us, |3045| to know |2896| good |7451| and evil. ignorance was bliss, or rather paradise |6258| And now, |6435| lest |7971| he put forth |3027| his hand |3947| and take |1571| also |6086| from the Tree of |2416| Life |0398| and eat |2425| and live |5769| forever,

23. |7971| therefore, sent him |3068| Yahweh |0430| God |1588| out of the garden |5731| of Eden |5647| to till |0853| - |0127| the ground |0834| which |3917| he was taken |8033| from

I've been trying to find where the curse of death pertains to eternal death. It seems to me that i remember God telling Adam (and Eve) about (Him) sending One that removes this curse (prophecy of the Messiah), but its getting late and my step-daughter is asking for a back scratch, so im gonna stop for the night. When i find it i'll post where it is... I hope you dont mind though, i'll probably use KJV or NIV because it is tiresome reading literal and the Strong's Numbers are somewhat distracting.

So what about all those people that lived before Christ? Where did they go? If "GOD" has been here from the start, where were all the christans? You can't deny it. THEY WERE NOT THERE!!! You christans take the bible so literalty that you become blind to the real world. Why don't you take off you blind folds?

quote:Originally posted by Posion:

So what about all those people that lived before Christ? Where did they go? If "GOD" has been here from the start, where were all the christans? You can't deny it. THEY WERE NOT THERE!!! You christans take the bible so literalty that you become blind to the real world. Why don't you take off you blind folds?



well, there were the jews. and if you take the creation story seriously, they have always been around. So you just sound like a dumbass.

also, many christians do not take the bible "so literally", many understand that it is mostly symoblic.

also, many christians even deny the existance of hell. So "ALL THOSE PEOPLE" would be in "heaven" or whatever you wanna call it.

the belief that only christians go to heaven is one of the religions shortcomings, but you must understand many christians don't feel that way. even in the catholic cathecism it says that all people who are truly seaking the Truth are following god's path.

educate yourself a little before you come here spewing that bullshit.

According to a theory Ive read the symbolism of the original sin in Genesis is about the passage of mankind from matriarchical society to patriarchical. Women agreed to give power to men because their intelligence solved many of their every day problems. It was the necessary step towards civilization but Eve is charged with it as a sin because it removes mankind from its animal-state happiness and hurls it into the dark uncertain road of progress.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Skoolboy...I'm not shitting you here, it is part of Catholic theology that as you eat the motherfucking "manna" (aka wafer or piece of bread), it turns into the body of Christ. Not symbolically, but literally.

It could be seen as the body, or part of the body, of Christ as a spiritual being, not Christ as a human person.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

It could be seen as the body, or part of the body, of Christ as a spiritual being, not Christ as a human person.

thats kinda exactly what it's seen as. Optimus Prime, are you roman catholic? if so have you been formally educated in your faith? the catechism says that the true transformation happens within the reciever heart and it is the blood and flesh of jesus' spirit. Jesus wasn't caught up in his physical body, and neither is the communion/

quote:Originally posted by Posion:

So what about all those people that lived before Christ? Where did they go? If "GOD" has been here from the start, where were all the christans? You can't deny it. THEY WERE NOT THERE!!! You christans take the bible so literalty that you become blind to the real world. Why don't you take off you blind folds?

You obviously haven't read the Old Testament. People were held under the law of Moses, prior to Christ. The system was very different then !

If you truly want to know how entrance into Heaven was achieved prior to the birth and death of Christ, read it. The answers are there.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

original sin is an incredibly highly debated issue. read the first chapter of genesis. what does god say after everything he makes? i think that points to original goodness a bit more than original sin.

also, original sin was created by the church, more specifically saint thomas aquinas. It was his bastard attempt at explain idiology.

Ummm...the original sin was Eve's decision to turn her back on God.

By eating the apple, she defied Him. She basically said, "You can't tell me what to do, I know what's best for me !" Of course, this thought process had probably not even occured to her at the time. However, she was given one simple rule, and she broke it.

THAT was the original sin...disobedience.

What God created WAS good, but free-will can be a bitch.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



well, there were the jews. and if you take the creation story seriously, they have always been around. So you just sound like a dumbass.

also, many christians do not take the bible "so literally", many understand that it is mostly symoblic.

also, many christians even deny the existance of hell. So "ALL THOSE PEOPLE" would be in "heaven" or whatever you wanna call it.

the belief that only christians go to heaven is one of the religions shortcomings, but you must understand many christians don't feel that way. even in the catholic cathecism it says that all people who are truly seaking the Truth are following god's path.

educate yourself a little before you come here spewing that bullshit.

The "christians" that do not believe in Hell do not read the Bible. If they are ommitting the painful aspects of the Bible, then they are not following God.

This is what Catholics do. They manipulate the word in order to assist them in achieveing their own selfish devices...in the case of those that don't believe in Hell, they are attempting to avoid the thought of an unjust God, in my opinion.

If you believe in Heaven, then you MUST believe in Hell. Looking around at our environment, we can see that God is a creator of balance. Equilibrium, if you will.

What would Heaven be without Hell ?

I don't see why the belief that only those that dedicate their lives to God, trust that He sent His son Jesus to redeem us from our sins, and honor Him with all their hearts should go to Heaven, is such a shortcoming.

Is it not more "fun" (in a human sense) to sleep around before marriage ?

Isn't it just a blast to smoke some pot while at a party ?

What about that ________________ ( &lt;---- enter desired object here) you've been dying to have, and couldn't afford ? Who will it hurt, really, for you to steal it ?

It is EASIER to be a pagan...to do whatever the hell you want. To satisfy the flesh, and all your earthly desires.

Where is the honor in that ? Why should that be rewarded as equally ?

Those that deny their flesh, and live by the ways of Christ (giving their hearts to him wholly) are rewarded with this...I don't think I need to explain why this is "fair".

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-06-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Isn't it just a blast to smoke some pot while at a party ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-06-2004).]



yeah, it actually is. You should try it sometime. If i'm not mistaken there is nothing against the ganja in the bible, but then again i would trust you to know scripure better than me, and i am interested so if there is a passage speaking of pot, than please post it.

Here's my problem with hell. God is both omnibenevolent (all loving) and just. However sometimes these two cannot be reconciled, thus people go to hell. I have a problem with the thought that God's vengeance and justice outwiegh his love. That is a personal belief of mine.

God loves all of us, He sent his one and only Son to save us from the evil one. Jesus suffered a whole bunch for us, and in the end, he resurrected and crossed the gates to eternal life.

God doesn't want any of us to go to hell, but you have your whole lifetime of chances to study and learn about what God has in store for you. If you turn away, you go to hell. If you follow His will and live according to the Bible, you will find eternal life and will find comfort and hope in your life.

This is what God wants, we are his children, and we should obey our one Father in Heaven. After a life long of turning away from God, don't you think He would be a little mad?

quote:Originally posted by AvtomatoR:

God loves all of us, He sent his one and only Son to save us from the evil one. Jesus suffered a whole bunch for us, and in the end, he resurrected and crossed the gates to eternal life.

God doesn't want any of us to go to hell, but you have your whole lifetime of chances to study and learn about what God has in store for you. If you turn away, you go to hell. If you follow His will and live according to the Bible, you will find eternal life and will find comfort and hope in your life.

This is what God wants, we are his children, and we should obey our one Father in Heaven. After a life long of turning away from God, don't you think He would be a little mad?



I got three words for you buddy and it's found in your bible. "The Prodigol son".

i thought we were supposed to learn something from the parables???



owned trick.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



This is what Catholics do. They manipulate the word in order to assist them in achieveing their own selfish devices...).]

catholics don't manipulate anything

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



yeah, it actually is. You should try it sometime. If i'm not mistaken there is nothing against the ganja in the bible, but then again i would trust you to know scripure better than me, and i am interested so if there is a passage speaking of pot, than please post it.

Here's my problem with hell. God is both omnibenevolent (all loving) and just. However sometimes these two cannot be reconciled, thus people go to hell. I have a problem with the thought that God's vengeance and justice outwiegh his love. That is a personal belief of mine.



I have smoked plenty of pot in my lifetime...I would venture to bet more than anyone on this website. It was one of my vices that I quit not too long ago...yep, I'm still human, and still sin.

The Bible says nothing about smoking pot specifically, but it does command us to obey the laws of the land. And currently, it is illegal to smoke pot in the US, in case you have forgotten. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

How is it impossible for an entity to be all loving, but just at the same time ? Is this not what 'good' parents strive for ? As you whoop your child's butt for playing with your lighter for the 80th time, you spank out of love and concern. You are delivering a just punishment, to the one that you love more than yourself.

I don't see how this conflicts. If you didn't love your child, you would let them burn the house down, and possibly injure themselves.

God doesn't send people to Hell. They send themselves. This choice has been made an obvious one, though most will choose to ignore it, and placate themselves into thinking that there simply is no God at all.

God is everything good and pure. Therefor, He cannot be in the presence of sin. He detests sin. If people choose to live their lives immersed in sin, without any regard for their creator, then they will certainly find themselves in Hell, come the judgement day.

Everyone has had (will have) a chance to either accept Christ as their savior, or not. It is ultimately up to us. You cannot shake your fist at God for being unjust, when you do not truly understand the nature of His existence.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-06-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

catholics don't manipulate anything

ZMan, just because you're a Catholic doesn't mean there aren't any flaws in your religion. Please do some research, as you obviously don't understand your own religion.

I am not trying to offend you, though it seems an inescapable end, at this point.

I believe I have gone into great detail, on several threads, in regards to the ways that the Catholic Church has mutilated the word of God, and misled thousands upon thousands of people in their quest for God.

If you need me to post it all again, I will.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



I got three words for you buddy and it's found in your bible. "The Prodigol son".

i thought we were supposed to learn something from the parables???



owned trick.



Do you even read the Bible? Or do you know what the parables are about?

Yes, Jesus' teachings are full of parables, and we do learn from it, and it is quite easy. That's what the Bible is mostly about, the teachings of Jesus Christ.

quote:Originally posted by Knave:

if God is so merciful, how can he just send a soul to hell for all ETERNITY?

i'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, i'm just wondering what your thoughts on this are

Its pretty hard to go to Hell if you think about it, you either want to go, dont regret the evil shit you did in your life or have a total disbelief of God. Thats how my theology teacher explained it last year. (Some of my teachers are nuns)

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

How does one determine which parts of the bible are to be taken literally?I'm just curious. I've been involved in very lengthy discussions concerning this subject. If you must take it literally that God created the world and everything else in six days,made woman from a rib out of Adam,and covered the entire earth in flood, how can you not take eternal damnation literally?



Some relgions are literalists, so they believe God made the world in 6 days and Adam and Eve ate an apple out of a magic tree, but oter religions (I know catholics and i think anglicans are like this) are contextualists. They believe that the 6 days are just a metaphor for 6 stages God went though to make the world, the tree or knowledge was some kind of a power source and not actually a tree and that things like evolution are true.

DigitalSavior wrote :

I don't see why the belief that only those that dedicate their lives to God, trust that He sent His son Jesus to redeem us from our sins, and honor Him with all their hearts should go to Heaven, is such a shortcoming.

Is it not more "fun" (in a human sense) to sleep around before marriage ?

Isn't it just a blast to smoke some pot while at a party ?

What about that ________________ ( &lt;---- enter desired object here) you've been dying to have, and couldn't afford ? Who will it hurt, really, for you to steal it ?

It is EASIER to be a pagan...to do whatever the hell you want. To satisfy the flesh, and all your earthly desires.

Where is the honor in that ? Why should that be rewarded as equally ?

Those that deny their flesh, and live by the ways of Christ (giving their hearts to him wholly) are rewarded with this...I don't think I need to explain why this is "fair".

----

You are misled like most christians my friend. Deny your flesh? Dedicate yourself to God? What do these things mean and how do you think they please the Creator? You speak of "fun" as if it is evil. Does not God love you? Does He not want you to be happy? He gives you LIFE and living it to the FULLEST is how you honor that gift. Those that supposedly "dedicate" their lives to God are those that have no life at all. They are the dead that Jesus speaks of.

You speak of rewards, (I presume in an after-life heaven), while preaching a life in hell. You practically spit on God's greatest gift. Read Jesus's words more carefully! The Kingdom of Heaven is in your life spans! The Resurrection is not about your biological death! Live your life with love, respect and happiness. And FUN is happiness. And when you're happy, your heavenly father is happy too.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

----

You are misled like most christians my friend. Deny your flesh? Dedicate yourself to God? What do these things mean and how do you think they please the Creator? You speak of "fun" as if it is evil. Does not God love you? Does He not want you to be happy? He gives you LIFE and living it to the FULLEST is how you honor that gift. Those that supposedly "dedicate" their lives to God are those that have no life at all. They are the dead that Jesus speaks of.

You speak of rewards, (I presume in an after-life heaven), while preaching a life in hell. You practically spit on God's greatest gift. Read Jesus's words more carefully! The Kingdom of Heaven is in your life spans! The Resurrection is not about your biological death! Live your life with love, respect and happiness. And FUN is happiness. And when you're happy, your heavenly father is happy too.

Word.

quote:Originally posted by AvtomatoR:

Do you even read the Bible? Or do you know what the parables are about?

Yes, Jesus' teachings are full of parables, and we do learn from it, and it is quite easy. That's what the Bible is mostly about, the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I was refering to the "Prodigal Son". The son that turns from his father and does what he pleases, but in the end his father accepts him and loves him completely.

Yes I read the bible, Yes I understand the parables, No you shouldn't speak to me as if I have no understanding of something that I have obviously already shown a good understanding of in this thread alone.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I have smoked plenty of pot in my lifetime...I would venture to bet more than anyone on this website. It was one of my vices that I quit not too long ago...yep, I'm still human, and still sin.

The Bible says nothing about smoking pot specifically, but it does command us to obey the laws of the land. And currently, it is illegal to smoke pot in the US, in case you have forgotten. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

How is it impossible for an entity to be all loving, but just at the same time ? Is this not what 'good' parents strive for ? As you whoop your child's butt for playing with your lighter for the 80th time, you spank out of love and concern. You are delivering a just punishment, to the one that you love more than yourself.

I don't see how this conflicts. If you didn't love your child, you would let them burn the house down, and possibly injure themselves.

God doesn't send people to Hell. They send themselves. This choice has been made an obvious one, though most will choose to ignore it, and placate themselves into thinking that there simply is no God at all.

God is everything good and pure. Therefor, He cannot be in the presence of sin. He detests sin. If people choose to live their lives immersed in sin, without any regard for their creator, then they will certainly find themselves in Hell, come the judgement day.

Everyone has had (will have) a chance to either accept Christ as their savior, or not. It is ultimately up to us. You cannot shake your fist at God for being unjust, when you do not truly understand the nature of His existence.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-06-2004).]

I'd like to ask you a question, and get a good answer as you usually give. It is my experiance that you are one of the most knowledgable posters on the forum and I do take what you write into consideration and really think about it.

You probably hear this all the time, but I want to hear your answer......

What about all the people in the world that will never even hear about jesus? Are they damned to hell? What about people in remote places who hear about Jesus just once, just once they have an oppurtunity to hear about jesus and accept him? would they be damned? Think about it, they have been living their entire lives following a certain faith, and then all of a sudden, god expects them to turn around and follow jesus after hearing about it once?



most would say no, that god gives them convictions to be kind and just and good. Well I say if that is good enough for them, It should be good enough for me.

Anyway, as always, I'm just interested in your point of view Digital Savior.

if they go to hell, it won't be that bad I think. It just won't be heaven.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

if they go to hell, it won't be that bad I think. It just won't be heaven.



You are CLEARLY not informed about Christianity, let alone Catholicism. Do yourself a favor...PLEASE educate yourself. It is awesome that you have a yearning heart, and seek to do God's will, but I must be the bearer of bad news: you haven't got a clue.

I am sorry...I know that sounds awful, but your misconceptions, and lack of understanding serve only to make you look bad, and you do nothing beneficial in regards to discipleship.

As I have said, I know you mean well, but...

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

ANSWER MY QUESTION BITCH.



http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

what misconception?

She's talking about your misconception of hell. Hell is the worst possible thing, period. There are no levels of hell like in Dante, It is eternal suffering.

It's not like taco bell, there is no Mild hell, No hot, only Fire hell.



hehehe, really lame parrallel, but it's true.

From my understandings of Hell...what it originally was, was a place completely devoid of God's presence with a Lake of Fire in the center where the Devil is to be cast after God defeats him in the apocalyptic war.

The suffering isn't fire, or demons torturing you, or anything like that. It's your divine soul, a gift from God, being in the absence of its Creator, the very thing that allows your soul to experience joy, causing unimaginable emotional pain that never ceases.

My quarrel with the concept of Hell is that punishments, as far as I have learned (even in the Bible) are supposed to be something we learn from. Hell is eternal, there is no learning to be done. We have on average a mere 75 or so years to make choices that could result in eternal damnation? Hell isn't a punishment, it is torture. If God were to exist along with Heaven and Hell, and be a TRULY just being, who TRULY loves his creation, would Hell not just be a tormentuous place in which you can still repent (not out of the fear of torture, but for the realization that you truly do love God as he created all that is good, and that which you love can only be in His presence)?

Is it my idea or DigitalSavior avoids to answer my posts?

quote:Originally posted by Knave:

if God is so merciful, how can he just send a soul to hell for all ETERNITY?

i'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, i'm just wondering what your thoughts on this are

because god loves us so much that he respects our choice.

god doesnt send us to hell, we do by our own choices

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

I was refering to the "Prodigal Son". The son that turns from his father and does what he pleases, but in the end his father accepts him and loves him completely.

But in this parable, the father accepts him after the son realizes his mistakes and RETURNS to his fathers house. In fact, in the parable, it doesnt say that the father STOPPED accepting him. But it does say that the son felt unworthy, and came back to be a servant, not an heir, but the father's acceptance was that the son is still an heir. The father could not given to the son all entailment of "heir-dom", if the son never returns.

One purpose of the parable is to point out that God our Father, still loves us, but if we chose to never return to Him, we can not recieve our inheritance, because of our own choice(s).

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I've been trying to find where the curse of death pertains to eternal death. It seems to me that i remember God telling Adam (and Eve) about (Him) sending One that removes this curse (prophecy of the Messiah)...

... When i find it i'll post where it is... I hope you dont mind though, i'll probably use KJV or NIV because it is tiresome reading literal and the Strong's Numbers are somewhat distracting.

Sorry, aTribeCalledSean, i still havent found it yet, but i havent been researching much lately (due to family responsibilties), still searching--but slowly.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Is it my idea or DigitalSavior avoids to answer my posts?

Not at all ! *looks around* Have you posted something that warranted a response ?

If so, my apologies. Do you see how many posts I send a DAY ? It is amazing I still have time for two kids, two cats, a dog, a husband, and a FULL time job ! *lol*

It wasn't on purpose, I promise. Maybe I just didn't think there was anything to say.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

ANSWER MY QUESTION BITCH.



http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I WILL, PRICK.

Gimme some time, eh ? Don't you want an INFORMED, honest answer, instead of something I can pull out of my nether regions in the blink of an eye ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:You are misled like most christians my friend. Deny your flesh? Dedicate yourself to God? What do these things mean and how do you think they please the Creator? You speak of "fun" as if it is evil. Does not God love you? Does He not want you to be happy? He gives you LIFE and living it to the FULLEST is how you honor that gift. Those that supposedly "dedicate" their lives to God are those that have no life at all. They are the dead that Jesus speaks of.

You speak of rewards, (I presume in an after-life heaven), while preaching a life in hell. You practically spit on God's greatest gift. Read Jesus's words more carefully! The Kingdom of Heaven is in your life spans! The Resurrection is not about your biological death! Live your life with love, respect and happiness. And FUN is happiness. And when you're happy, your heavenly father is happy too.

If this is the post you are referring to, I believe it is obvious why I didn't respond. Your clear lack of understanding of God and the Bible indicate that you either don't care about the truth, or have not been educated in it.

I could sit here and tell you all the reasons why you are in the wrong, but that would defeat the purpose of not answering you altogether.

If you INSIST that I respond to this, I will...but there are much bigger fish to fry, if you catch my drift.

I will say ONE thing though...God DOES love us, and that is why He doesn't want us to live in the flesh. All it does is cause problems.

From your point of view, we should live like animals, doing as we please without regard to anything else. This is how pagans live, so I don't see how that would make us (Christians) any different.

This is not how Jesus lived his life, and we are to model ourselves after his example.

Please read the Bible if you want to have an opinion on God, and His desires for us.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

You speak of "fun" as if it is evil. Does not God love you? Does He not want you to be happy? He gives you LIFE and living it to the FULLEST is how you honor that gift. Those that supposedly "dedicate" their lives to God are those that have no life at all. They are the dead that Jesus speaks of.

Do you really believe that people leading a Christian life, dedicated to God, have no fun? Maybe you might want to re-evaluate what "fun" means to you. Or perhaps define, to us, what "fun" means to you.

While i feel as though i am still on the road to christian maturity, let me express some of the "fun" things in my life (in no particular order): Being with my family and friends, snowboarding, windsurfing, camping, reading & learning, acting goofy with my step-daughters, making love to my wife, going to museums, playing on the computer, debating in totse, going to church, going out to eat, eating at home, watching movies, going to reneisance faire, watching football (when younger..playing football), traveling, work (most days), swimming, thinking... and the list goes on and on. These things are fun to me, and i dont see them interfering with being devoted to God (except when i occasionaly place them before God).



quote:You speak of rewards, (I presume in an after-life heaven), while preaching a life in hell. You practically spit on God's greatest gift. Read Jesus's words more carefully! The Kingdom of Heaven is in your life spans! The Resurrection is not about your biological death! Live your life with love, respect and happiness. And FUN is happiness. And when you're happy, your heavenly father is happy too.

i agree with Digital Savior, maybe you should read the Bible (more?). While God does want us to be happy and He gets joy from our joy, there is more to God's happiness than just "doin' yer own thang".

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

I'd like to ask you a question, and get a good answer as you usually give.... &lt;&lt;snipped&gt;&gt; ...into consideration and really think about it.

What about all the people in the world that will never even hear about jesus? Are they damned to hell? What about people in remote places who hear about Jesus just once, just once they have an oppurtunity to hear about jesus and accept him? would they be damned? Think about it, they have been living their entire lives following a certain faith, and then all of a sudden, god expects them to turn around and follow jesus after hearing about it once?

I know this question was directed at Digital Savior, please forgive my 2 cents worth.

Optimus Prime gave us all some insight to this. He mentioned (correctly) in a few posts that God says a couple of times in the Bible, that God makes some provisions concerning (uncontrolable) ignorance. But the Bible also says that with more knowledge af God's will or atleast the more exposure to it, the more thorough the judgement... or rather-- effects to those words.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

YES.. i agree. Catholisism does teach that, and so do the Lutherans. Well, actually it is called "Real Presence", and it means (according to Luthrans) that the Body and Blood of The Christ is in with and under the bread and wine. I cant remember if Catholics teach that it changes into or has "Real Presence". and right now im too lazy to look it up.





However you call this, obviously it doesn't happen in the physical plane. No one has ever witnessed, AFAIK, the bread and wine being changed into flesh and blood. Christ is a SPIRITUAL, not incarnated being however, and his "physical body" and his "blood" may have another significance than the usual ones. I happen to believe that this changing into His Body and Blood might be understood as happening on another plane.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

thats kinda exactly what it's seen as. Optimus Prime, are you roman catholic? if so have you been formally educated in your faith? the catechism says that the true transformation happens within the reciever heart and it is the blood and flesh of jesus' spirit. Jesus wasn't caught up in his physical body, and neither is the communion/

This might be somewhat off-topic, but I thought I should mention it as we are talking about the transformation of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood.

Alexandra David-Néel writes about this. Tibetan sorcerers (or lamas, I am not sure about this) practise a rite (were practising it at the time the book was written) in which the apprentice is calling up demons and offering them to eat his body. He is practising it as if he were actually feeling the demons devouring his flesh.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I know this question was directed at Digital Savior, please forgive my 2 cents worth.

Optimus Prime gave us all some insight to this. He mentioned (correctly) in a few posts that God says a couple of times in the Bible, that God makes some provisions concerning (uncontrolable) ignorance. But the Bible also says that with more knowledge af God's will or atleast the more exposure to it, the more thorough the judgement... or rather-- effects to those words.





no by all means, anyones answers would be appreciated, i just directed it at Digital Savior because she is usually the best informed Christian on this forum, But thanks for the response.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:



However you call this, obviously it doesn't happen in the physical plane. No one has ever witnessed, AFAIK, the bread and wine being changed into flesh and blood. Christ is a SPIRITUAL, not incarnated being however, and his "physical body" and his "blood" may have another significance than the usual ones. I happen to believe that this changing into His Body and Blood might be understood as happening on another plane.



This is 99.999999% true. Just for comment, I have seen a video of an extremely pious women recieving the body, and blood ran out of her mouth. She said that the "wafer" became a literal piece of flesh in her mouth and started oozing blood. All you can really believe from the video is that there is an exceptional amount of blood oozing from her mouth, whether it was the "flesh" or from her is up to you to decide.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

From my understandings of Hell...what it originally was, was a place completely devoid of God's presence with a Lake of Fire in the center where the Devil is to be cast after God defeats him in the apocalyptic war.

The suffering isn't fire, or demons torturing you, or anything like that. It's your divine soul, a gift from God, being in the absence of its Creator, the very thing that allows your soul to experience joy, causing unimaginable emotional pain that never ceases.

My quarrel with the concept of Hell is that punishments, as far as I have learned (even in the Bible) are supposed to be something we learn from. Hell is eternal, there is no learning to be done. We have on average a mere 75 or so years to make choices that could result in eternal damnation? Hell isn't a punishment, it is torture. If God were to exist along with Heaven and Hell, and be a TRULY just being, who TRULY loves his creation, would Hell not just be a tormentuous place in which you can still repent (not out of the fear of torture, but for the realization that you truly do love God as he created all that is good, and that which you love can only be in His presence)?

I apologize for quoting myself, but I would really like a response on this from someone who is still a part of Christianity; I left it some time ago and have since forgotten even a possibly reply to this.

As far as i can see, if hell is to be eternal, then the object is not punishment with a view to correction, but something else.

My understanding of hell, as im sure has already been mentioned in this thread, is that it is the complete absense of God, and everything that is an attribute of God- complete seperation.

As such, perhaps hell is more of a necessity than anything else- (assuming all humans are eternal) if those who are justified are to spend eternity in God's presence, then those who are not have to go somewhere. Obviously this place cannot be in God's presence (God and sin don't mix apparently), so it would have to be somewhere devoid of God.

but in the end.. i don't really know. This the only option I can think of that fits with the framework we are given in christianity.

If a consequence does not serve the purpose of being a possible teacher, then it is, in my mind, torture. Atleast in my view, I don't thing the All Mighty would be cool with torture, that's why I believe if following Jesus' god is the correct way (I am an atheist though) that Hell would be a place that exists forever, but those who go there could still repent if it's out of a newfound love for that which has been stripped of them, rather than for a fear and hate of the suffering inflicted upon them.

Perhaps it would be like a movie screening of sorts. You are separated from God, feeling the pain from that, while you watch a reel of every sin you have committed in your life, feeling utmost guilt and sorrow for the horrible things you have done. And loop. That is unless you learn from the experience and accept the love God gives, etc.

Though of course, that isn't scriptural. The Bible goes into very little detail on Hell though, so who knows what it would be like were it to exist. As much as this sounds like a 13 year old child pissed at their parents over something stupid, I kind of would like to go to Hell to see what it is like. Though I guess if Christians are correct, I'll have a first class ticket there.

DigitalSavior wrote:

"I will say ONE thing though...God DOES love us, and that is why He doesn't want us to live in the flesh. All it does is cause problems."

If He doesn't want us to live in the flesh, why are you in the flesh right now? Flesh doesn't cause problems unless you disregard it like you do. People suffer in this world because some other people have decided that flesh is "unimportant".

"From your point of view, we should live like animals, doing as we please without regard to anything else. This is how pagans live, so I don't see how that would make us (Christians) any different. "

I didn't know pagans are mindless beings with animal intelligence. Christians do suffer from superiority complex. And that was not my point at all.

"This is not how Jesus lived his life, and we are to model ourselves after his example."

That is yet another great mistake of the christians. You cannot possibly model your life after the life of the Son of God. Jesus sacrificed a lot of his human nature for his mission and there's nothing to imply that similar sacrifices are requested of us.

A couple of questions then if you are so educated with the Bible (even if apparently you read without a critical mind - yes, that is needed even with the Bible).

1. Why do priests accept the title of "father" when we are urged by Jesus to not accept this title for anyone?

2. What is Jesus's opinion on marriage and divorce? (good luck on that!)

3. Explain what Jesus means with "Kingdom of Heaven" and who are the dead in "Let the dead bury their own dead".

Please use only parts of Jesus's sayings, not his disciples.

Optimus Prime- i agree with you that a purely punishment for the sake of punishment hell is pointless, and frankly cruel.However I think you have missed the thrust of my poorly articulated argument-

hell is not a place of strange and unusual punishment, it is simply the absense of the Divine. The need for this seperation is not simply created because God is vengeful, but rather I think that it may have occured out of well, logic (in a very wrong application of the term).

i.e. the justified are with God post-mortal life, the unjustified cannot be with God, yet are eternal beings, thus must be without God.

elfstone- do you mind if i have a crack?

1. Valid point which I agree with.

2. You know, that's a funnny question, cause whenever someone asked him a question like that he usually responded with a question. Although from the cannonical gospels you can surmise (off the top of my head)- that he never encouraged nor discouraged his disciples to marry. In fact he calls them to treat such things as family ties as trivial compared to following him. In terms of divorce, I think Matt 5 is pretty clear.

3. The "Kingdom of Heaven" biiigggg concept. 1900 odd years of christian thought still hasn't come to a unified conclusion. My own understanding is that it is "at hand", that it is present reality, supposed to be seen in God's people and their involvement in this world, and also a future reality, seen in the 2nd coming etc. etc.

Who are the dead? The orthodox understanding of this passage is that it refers to those who are "spiritually dead", those who are not seeking to follow Christ.

I'm sure that you are probably actually not interested in hearing answer. The tone of your post seemed to suggest that you possessed a superior knowledge of the text and its "difficult issues", and were not interested in having genuine queries resolved. But that's okay.

quote:

That is yet another great mistake of the christians. You cannot possibly model your life after the life of the Son of God. Jesus sacrificed a lot of his human nature for his mission and there's nothing to imply that similar sacrifices are requested of us.

You're very right. This is where most christians do make a great mistake. The only problem is they make the mistake of doing what you suggest. Jesus never asked us to build a religion around him. He never said to write books and build monuments and make countries go to war in my name.

He did ask to sacrifice not just some of our humanity, but all of it. All of our claim on anything but on him, and anything that would have claim on us except him.

One thing he did say, and say repeatedly was "Come, follow me".

This thread just goes to prove how eternally stupid mainstream religious people are. FADE OUT!

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

I apologize for quoting myself, but I would really like a response on this from someone who is still a part of Christianity; I left it some time ago and have since forgotten even a possibly reply to this.

The only comment I can make on your original post is, I think that is an amazing analysis, and I completely agree. I have the same problem with hell.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



no by all means, anyones answers would be appreciated, i just directed it at Digital Savior because she is usually the best informed Christian on this forum, But thanks for the response.



Yay ! I finally respond...*laughs*

Have you ever read the verse Romans 1:20 ?

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

This seems clear...a promise that NO MAN will be without the knowledge of God, in some fashion or another, to the point that they have NO EXCUSE to deny His existence based on sheer ignorance.

2 Corinthians 2:14

But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.

Do you need more ? I had a heck of a time finding these...

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Sorry, aTribeCalledSean, i still havent found it yet, but i havent been researching much lately (due to family responsibilties), still searching--but slowly.



Matthew 18:8

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matthew 25:46

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jude 1:7

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.



I hope this clarifies that Hell is forever.

I couldn't find the verse (yet) where God tells His people that He will send someone (His son) to die for us.

I'll keep looking.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



This is 99.999999% true. Just for comment, I have seen a video of an extremely pious women recieving the body, and blood ran out of her mouth. She said that the "wafer" became a literal piece of flesh in her mouth and started oozing blood. All you can really believe from the video is that there is an exceptional amount of blood oozing from her mouth, whether it was the "flesh" or from her is up to you to decide.



Exodus 7

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.

Acts 8

9Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, "This man is the divine power known as the Great Power." 11They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 12But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. (He duplicated the miracles of Philip)

Acts 13

6They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."

12Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

Exodus 7

14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go. 15 Go to Pharaoh in the morning as he goes out to the water. Wait on the bank of the Nile to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake. 16 Then say to him, 'The LORD , the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened. 17 This is what the LORD says: By this you will know that I am the LORD : With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. 18 The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water.' "

19 The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt-over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs'-and they will turn to blood. Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in the wooden buckets and stone jars."

20 Moses and Aaron did just as the LORD had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood. 21 The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.

22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.



As you can see, Satan has been emulating God since the beginning of time.

My point is this: simply because this woman had blood coming out her mouth does not mean that it was real, or that it was from God. God would have no use for such things, and nowhere in the Bible is this mentioned.

Lucifer has made it a point copy God in order to discredit His omnipotence and power.

But one must consider this: copying is a form of flattery. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-11-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

[B] From my understandings of Hell...what it originally was, was a place completely devoid of God's presence with a Lake of Fire in the center where the Devil is to be cast after God defeats him in the apocalyptic war.

The suffering isn't fire, or demons torturing you, or anything like that. It's your divine soul, a gift from God, being in the absence of its Creator, the very thing that allows your soul to experience joy, causing unimaginable emotional pain that never ceases.

My quarrel with the concept of Hell is that punishments, as far as I have learned (even in the Bible) are supposed to be something we learn from. Hell is eternal, there is no learning to be done. We have on average a mere 75 or so years to make choices that could result in eternal damnation? Hell isn't a punishment, it is torture. If God were to exist along with Heaven and Hell, and be a TRULY just being, who TRULY loves his creation, would Hell not just be a tormentuous place in which you can still repent (not out of the fear of torture, but for the realization that you truly do love God as he created all that is good, and that which you love can only be in His presence)?

B]

I agree with you 100% percent about the true design of Hell...complete separation from your Creator, as well as other souls. It is utter alone-ness.

Where our opinions/understanding differs is that Hell is a place of learning. I don't believe that, for the very reason that you have given: it is eternal.

Our time on earth is our time to learn. If we take what we learn from our existence on earth, and choose to deny God as our Creator, the punishment is Hell.

God gave us the discernment and fortitude to understand enough of His desire to make a sound, educated decision about whether or not we accept Him as our savior. You say 75 years is a mere amount of time, but it is enough. God is just and fair in all things, so I don't believe He set us up for failure by giving us such a limited amount of time.

Early in the Bible, the people lived 900+ years. So, I don't believe it is the amount of time that is the deciding factor, but rather the ability to decide.

Everyone is given an opportunity.

Romans 1:20.

Our time to repent is here, NOW. He is very specific in regards to our purpose while here on this planet.

Though you may view our time as short, every moment and every day that is given to you is one more chance for you to repent and live your life for God.

If you are still here, then there is still a plan for you.

Our lives here on earth are our chance to prove to God that we love Him, and that we dedicate our lives to Him. This is how He wants it to be, so this plan must be followed.

How fair and just would it be for those that lived their lives the way they wanted to, and not God's way, to be able to repent only AFTER being punished ?

It is a hard life to be a Christian. Much harder than to not be...to deny flesh time and again, to be ridiculed, and rebuked for your beliefs, to seek God in all that we do; THIS IS OUR RITE OF PASSAGE. This is our test of faith. This is necessary.

Those that choose the path that is "wide" (meaning easy) do not deserve any breaks, once their decision to rebel against God has been finalized by physical death.

quote:DigitalSavior wrote:

"I will say ONE thing though...God DOES love us, and that is why He doesn't want us to live in the flesh. All it does is cause problems."

quote:If He doesn't want us to live in the flesh, why are you in the flesh right now? Flesh doesn't cause problems unless you disregard it like you do. People suffer in this world because some other people have decided that flesh is "unimportant".

quote:"From your point of view, we should live like animals, doing as we please without regard to anything else. This is how pagans live, so I don't see how that would make us (Christians) any different."

quote:I didn't know pagans are mindless beings with animal intelligence. Christians do suffer from superiority complex. And that was not my point at all.

quote:"This is not how Jesus lived his life, and we are to model ourselves after his example."

quote:That is yet another great mistake of the christians. You cannot possibly model your life after the life of the Son of God. Jesus sacrificed a lot of his human nature for his mission and there's nothing to imply that similar sacrifices are requested of us.

A couple of questions then if you are so educated with the Bible (even if apparently you read without a critical mind - yes, that is needed even with the Bible).

1. Why do priests accept the title of "father" when we are urged by Jesus to not accept this title for anyone?

2. What is Jesus's opinion on marriage and divorce? (good luck on that!)

3. Explain what Jesus means with "Kingdom of Heaven" and who are the dead in "Let the dead bury their own dead".

Please use only parts of Jesus's sayings, not his disciples.

You misunderstand what I mean when I say "live in the flesh". I don't mean being alive physically, I mean living true to our nature, which is sinful. (We are born into sin)

The suffering I am referring to is the result of the sin. If you have premarital sex, there is a possibility of an unwanted child, or a disease. Both are painful emotionally and physically. Pain is suffering. Premarital sex is forbidden by God.

I don't think I need to expound on the suffering that is caused by murdering someone. Murder is sin.

If you cheat on your spouse, even if you are not caught, guilt will consume you eventually, and almost always results in the dissolution of the marriage. This can be considered suffering. Adultery is a sin.

These sins, which are natural to commit while succumbing to the desires of our flesh, cause suffering and pain.

Catch my drift ?

I didn't say that humans were mindless, with animal intelligence. What I did say is that based on your perception that we should be able to live as we please, doing whatever we want or desire, we would be no better than animals, who are not equipped with a conscience, nor a soul.

2 Peter 2

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

Living our lives as Jesus did is in fact, unattainable. But it is our goal, so that we can live the best that we can. God gave Jesus to us, not only as our savior in redemption of Hell, but as our example. What you have said is correct, we cannot achieve this entirely, but it is something to strive for.

1 John 2

6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Jesus did not sacrifice his human nature. If that were the case, he would have failed miserably, and would have been no better than you or I. Though he was technically human, he was still a divine being. If he wasn't, it would have been impossible for him to survive the blistering heat of the desert for 40 days and nights without food or water. He was filled with the Holy Spirit, and had a deep, personal relationship with God. (Jesus was, after all, a part of the Holy Trinity)

I do not believe that anyone in the Christian faith is called "father", or even "priest". I think you are confusing these terms with the Catholic Church, which I do not believe bases their theology on sound Biblical teaching, for many reasons.

I know that some consider Catholics to be Christian, but they are two separate entities. You can be a Catholic and be a Christian, but they are not synonymous.

To be Christian, is to be Christ-like. To be Catholic is to follow the laws and rules set forth by the Catholic Church, which have nothing to do with God and the Bible. I believe I have gone into great detail explaining this on other threads.

I am a non-denominational Christian, and we have pastors, or teachers. No "fathers", or "priests".

Maybe you should do your homework on Christianity before accusing me of not understanding my own faith.

As far as marriage and divorce is concerned, I believe the Bible is clear...under no circumstances should one divorce their spouse for ANY reason other than adultery.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:1 "1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[1] 2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband."

Romans 7:2

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.

Deuteronomy 24

1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD . Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

You were not specific, so I don't know to what you are referring when asking about marriage and divorce.

What do you want to know about the "Kingdom of Heaven" (I need something more specific to go on than that).

When Jesus was speaking to his disciples and he said, Luke 9:57-62 "57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go."

58 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

59 He said to another man, "Follow me."

But the man replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."

60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

61 Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good bye to my family."

62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." "

You must read the whole story to truly understand the meaning.

In this situation, Jesus was telling the man that he must completely leave his life behind in order to follow God. To have one foot in the world, and one foot in Heaven is not acceptable.

It is written in the Bible that our families do not truly belong to us. They are on loan to us while we are here on earth. So, to put them above God is a sin. God comes first, in all things, therefor this man was expected to forget about burying his father's physical body, and immediately follow Christ.

I believe that the "dead" in this case refers to the physical body that means nothing. "Let a dead dog lie." type of thing. "Give to Ceasar what is Ceasars, and give to God what is God's" Jesus said in the temple.

There is a similar instance where a man who wishes to follow Jesus is told that he must donate all his riches to the poor before he can truly commit himself to God. The man was saddened by this, as he was very wealthy, and he decided he loved his money more than he wanted to do the will of God.

I believe in this story, the "kingdom of Heaven" reference refers to spreading the truth of Heaven and God.

And before you complain, the reason I used the disciples' words is because Jesus wrote none of the Bible. He only spoke, and what he said was written by his disciples.

I can do it, but I have to go home to my family now.



So, I have a question for you: What are YOU so pissed about ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-11-2004).]

Yeah, Catholicism is totally different that Christianity because we have candles at Mass and cross ourselves. That just makes us heritics because the Bible didn't specifically say so, even though the bible also doesn't say anywhere anything that supports the doctrine of Scripture Alone. And even says the traditions of men our good as long as they aren't contradictory to the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Early in the Bible, the people lived 900+ years. So, I don't believe it is the amount of time that is the deciding factor, but rather the ability to decide.



This is just a question, I'm not trying to spite you. Do you really believe they lived that long?

I have been taught and agree that this is just emelishing. In the Jewish mindframe, there was no heaven or hell. There was Sheol. Everyone went there, and it was just grey, like not good or bad. So living life was much better, thusly they had to make their own heaven or hell on earth. Most Jews of that time believed in Revenge Theology (basically if bad things happen to you, it's cause you did bad things and god is punishing you and vice versa). So those that lived a long time were seen as being close with God, because they were rewarded with good health and long life. So when the Jews went to write about their great Patriarchs, they wanted to show how amazingly close they were to God. Thus is the reason Adam lived longer than anyone in the bible, he had the most contact with god. Moses and Abraham all lived amazingly long in the bible, because they were that close to God. It's just symbolic. IMO.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

This is just a question, I'm not trying to spite you. Do you really believe they lived that long?

I have been taught and agree that this is just emelishing. In the Jewish mindframe, there was no heaven or hell. There was Sheol. Everyone went there, and it was just grey, like not good or bad. So living life was much better, thusly they had to make their own heaven or hell on earth. Most Jews of that time believed in Revenge Theology (basically if bad things happen to you, it's cause you did bad things and god is punishing you and vice versa). So those that lived a long time were seen as being close with God, because they were rewarded with good health and long life. So when the Jews went to write about their great Patriarchs, they wanted to show how amazingly close they were to God. Thus is the reason Adam lived longer than anyone in the bible, he had the most contact with god. Moses and Abraham all lived amazingly long in the bible, because they were that close to God. It's just symbolic. IMO.

I believed they lived that long, literally.

Anyway, Adam was not the one who lived the longest. It was a dude named "Methuselah" 969 years.

His gandfather, Jared, was second place at 962 years. Noah was 950 years old. Adam lived only 930 years.

Genisis chapter 5 has the names and ages from Adam to Noah.. although it doesnt have Noahs age there... you have to read on.

You feel that the embelishments are there for "pride" from the jewish mindset, but i really think that God had them noted for the purpose of dating of the Bible, but sofar it has been more a riddle than an answer.

Maybe this has been answered already but to answer your (Knave's) question, it is not God who has turned His back on you, but You who have turned your back on God. Do you know how easy it is to say, and believe, "I believe that Jesus Christ died for me and he rose from the dead." It is as simple as that. God "gives" you 70 or so years to say and believe that but do you? It's ultimately your choice. God believes in the freedom of our minds, he gave us the power of choice. From the very beginning, God gave Eve the choice to either eat the forbidden fruit, or not. She chose to eat it.

I'm really not trying to condemn you or anything but when the day of judgement comes and God sends you to hell, you have nothing and noone else to blame but yourself. It was that simple choice that you chose yourself to believe or not to believe that Jesus is your savior. On judgement day, you will not be able to say, "But Bobby the Christian made fun of me when I was 6!" Again, ultimately the choice was yours even though a Christian made a mistake.

Now, you might ask what about the unborn babies? Or the unreached(meaning places that have not heard the Word of God) places in Africa? As someone has said before, God is a just God. He is not a malicious God but a compassionate one.

quote:Those that choose the path that is "wide" (meaning easy) do not deserve any breaks, once their decision to rebel against God has been finalized by physical death.

Is this to say that at death God revokes the gift of volition?

I understand that as an omnipotent being, God's actions don't have to be logical, but I find it wrong that an all loving God can put us into ETERNAL Hell, while claiming to be just, for to punish a soul to ETERNAL Hell for a decision is to deny them the ability to change their decision and accept the love of God; it is a violation of volition, a gift God gave us, something I don't believe a just God would do. With volition comes consequences, yes; but then wouldn't changing from a wrong choice to the right choice and truly regretting making the poor decision bring about the GOOD consequences?

I cannot accept the notion that a God who violates a gift to satisfy "justice" is just. It is God's promise that all who believe in Christ and accept him in their heart as their saviour is to be given life; why is there a limit on that promise? Is not God timeless? He has all infinity to craft up arbitrary rules that seem quite contradictory to me, while us humans have on average 75 years to decide whether or not we succumb to these laws in the name of love, when we can't even be sure the being who supposedly crafted them exists?

...sorry for the little rant.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Is this to say that at death God revokes the gift of volition?

I understand that as an omnipotent being, God's actions don't have to be logical, but I find it wrong that an all loving God can put us into ETERNAL Hell, while claiming to be just, for to punish a soul to ETERNAL Hell for a decision is to deny them the ability to change their decision and accept the love of God; it is a violation of volition, a gift God gave us, something I don't believe a just God would do. With volition comes consequences, yes; but then wouldn't changing from a wrong choice to the right choice and truly regretting making the poor decision bring about the GOOD consequences?

I cannot accept the notion that a God who violates a gift to satisfy "justice" is just. It is God's promise that all who believe in Christ and accept him in their heart as their saviour is to be given life; why is there a limit on that promise? Is not God timeless? He has all infinity to craft up arbitrary rules that seem quite contradictory to me, while us humans have on average 75 years to decide whether or not we succumb to these laws in the name of love, when we can't even be sure the being who supposedly crafted them exists?

...sorry for the little rant.

To answer your last question, it's faith my friend. For example, if I tell you right now that God exists and that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, then it is your choice, COMPLETELY your choice to believe me or not. I know that this isn't good a good rebuttal but God exists whether you believe it or not. Now, you could say that this is my(micho's) personal opinion, but on that day of judgement, when you argue with God saying that you didn't have enough "evidence", then God, being completely just, lovingly says, "I was there, I am there, and I will always be. You simply CHOSE not to believe me." No evidence you say? I can completely understand that, who wants to believe in an invisible God?? That is where faith comes in. If you have enough faith to believe, then God is as real as your two hands. God may not be necessarily explained by science but does everything have to be explained by science?? How do you explain love? Hate? Are they some kind of chemical reaction? What causes this reaction? Thought does. How do you know that love and hate exists? What is love and hate?

Now, you discuss the idea of God disregarding voilition(which I had to look up http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)). God does not deny volition. Sure, maybe on the day of judgement you suddenly come to realize that this Christian God is the one true God. And you sit there praying for forgiveness that now that you have seen Him you believe. Not to sound harsh but those are just futile wishes. As you have stated before, you are regretting. As just as God is, there is a "too late, my son". 75 years, optimus, 75 years to think about it, to experience it. Now, is simply having faith in God too much to ask??

Thanks for you rant, that made my boring day fun! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

EDIT: Horrible grammar

Also, side note, God does NOT want you to go to hell. But it was ultimately your choice.



[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Is this to say that at death God revokes the gift of volition?

I understand that as an omnipotent being, God's actions don't have to be logical, but I find it wrong that an all loving God can put us into ETERNAL Hell, while claiming to be just, for to punish a soul to ETERNAL Hell for a decision is to deny them the ability to change their decision and accept the love of God; it is a violation of volition, a gift God gave us, something I don't believe a just God would do. With volition comes consequences, yes; but then wouldn't changing from a wrong choice to the right choice and truly regretting making the poor decision bring about the GOOD consequences?

I cannot accept the notion that a God who violates a gift to satisfy "justice" is just. It is God's promise that all who believe in Christ and accept him in their heart as their saviour is to be given life; why is there a limit on that promise? Is not God timeless? He has all infinity to craft up arbitrary rules that seem quite contradictory to me, while us humans have on average 75 years to decide whether or not we succumb to these laws in the name of love, when we can't even be sure the being who supposedly crafted them exists?

...sorry for the little rant.

As a soul, you will have little need for such things as volition. That is something that is characterized by the human brain. In Heaven, it is clear what we will be doing, and the ability to decide for ourselves is not a prevalent factor. This is not to say that we will be mindless. Please read Revelation for an accurate description of Heaven.

In Hell, I don't see what the point of volition would be, since you can change your mind all you want, but your fate is sealed. You have your 70+ years on this planet to change your mind. Why should you be given a second chance once you have made your eternal choice, made eternal by physical death ?

What good will choice be once you are in eternal damnation ?

Optimus, you have expressed your disdain for a just God that has the ability to damn people, and I have answered this disdain with logical, biblical answers many times.

Do you simply ignore my answers, or do you not find them suitable enough to quell your disdain ? If the latter is true, why have you not tried to engage in conversation with me about the subject further ?

It seems you just want to rebel against God, and don't care what the truth is.

God IS a just God, and in that justice, He has given us the ability to choose where we want to go in the end.

If you are not for God, then you are against Him. Those that are against Him are living in the flesh (for self), and therefor in sin. God cannot be in the presence of sin, because of His ultimate goodness. This rebellion against God deserves punishment, which is the epitome of justice, no ?

Who is to say that the Creator of the universe does not have the right to judge His own creation ?

Be thankful He is 'just' ! That if you so choose, you can stand by His side in Heaven for eternity.

There are ways to be sure He exists...but that requires an open heart and mind.

Most people feel that they have achieved this openness, but they have not. This is not a judgement statement, this is fact.

I thank God for another Christian on this board! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Nice explanation Digital_Savior!!

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

This is just a question, I'm not trying to spite you. Do you really believe they lived that long?

I have been taught and agree that this is just emelishing. In the Jewish mindframe, there was no heaven or hell. There was Sheol. Everyone went there, and it was just grey, like not good or bad. So living life was much better, thusly they had to make their own heaven or hell on earth. Most Jews of that time believed in Revenge Theology (basically if bad things happen to you, it's cause you did bad things and god is punishing you and vice versa). So those that lived a long time were seen as being close with God, because they were rewarded with good health and long life. So when the Jews went to write about their great Patriarchs, they wanted to show how amazingly close they were to God. Thus is the reason Adam lived longer than anyone in the bible, he had the most contact with god. Moses and Abraham all lived amazingly long in the bible, because they were that close to God. It's just symbolic. IMO.



If you read the genealogy given in Genesis, 1 & 2 Kings, etc. you will see that they did in fact live for hundreds of years.

It is not symbolic. The mathematical usage in the genealogy's is evidence of this.

As was pointed out, I believe this information was included in the Bible to accurately date it.

I also don't believe that Adam had the most contact with God, at least not based on what the Bible tells us.

Abraham and Moses lived an amazingly long time because everyone did at that time. It wasn't amazing to them to live that long, because it was common.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Through God who strengthens me !

Lord knows I have made many errors, but I try and convey His word correctly.

I am just thankful that He can use me as a vessel in this way.

Nice to see you Micho. We are a minority on this site. *lol*

quote:As a soul, you will have little need for such things as volition. That is something that is characterized by the human brain. In Heaven, it is clear what we will be doing, and the ability to decide for ourselves is not a prevalent factor. This is not to say that we will be mindless. Please read Revelation for an accurate description of Heaven.

Even in Eden, Adam and Eve had a use for their volition. I understand comparing Eden on Earth to the spiritual Heaven is apples and oranges, but the similarity of 'perfection' is there in both. I do not like the Christian 'perfection' because it is void of choice. Heaven, to me, is a place I can exercise my will and choose what I do. Choices are what give me pleasure; to lose my volition would be my personal Hell.

quote:In Hell, I don't see what the point of volition would be, since you can change your mind all you want, but your fate is sealed. You have your 70+ years on this planet to change your mind. Why should you be given a second chance once you have made your eternal choice, made eternal by physical death ?

We have 70 years, for me, that ISN'T enough. I'm a constructive thinker, for me to construct something, I need parts to work with. I cannot come to an acceptable conclusion that god exists when I have no material to work with other than faith (something I believe to be the most flawed method of arriving at conclusions). To me, if there was evidence that even loosely pointed to a god existing, I'd give it a chance again, but I know how I think, how my mind works...unless I have evidence to work with, I'm fucked.

quote:What good will choice be once you are in eternal damnation ?

What good is eternal damnation? Any sort of eternity seems unjust; consequences should reflect your actions, and they do in this life. Heaven and Hell can be achieved on Earth, both simultaneously. Those who live poorly live a hell, those who live well live a heaven...there is no need at all for consequences to be eternal, and they damned well shouldn't be if we truly do have volition.

quote:Optimus, you have expressed your disdain for a just God that has the ability to damn people, and I have answered this disdain with logical, biblical answers many times.

I would have no problem with a god that is just; you view the Christian conceptualized god as just if you wish, but I cannot see any sort of logic in calling a being just if not only do they send you into a tormentuous place, but they do not even provide a means of redemption. Justice is not a tool to balance shit out, it's a tool to correct ones ways. A just God would provide those who have turned their backs on him a way to correct that mistake. BUT, God is not just; I mean, how could he be? How could a vengeful and jealeous God be?

quote:Do you simply ignore my answers, or do you not find them suitable enough to quell your disdain ? If the latter is true, why have you not tried to engage in conversation with me about the subject further ?

I admit, I don't persue the subject further. In all honesty, it's because I value the subject less than I do my cigarettes. I've come to my conclusions a long time ago; I've gotten the answers you've given before, and much more complex and constructed ones as well, but I always end up seeing something in them that allows my mind to reject them as unfulfilling. The answers that I have personally found are enough to satisfy me; my participation on this website is not to seek answers for myself, but to help others see questions they may not have, or to see the issue in another light. I'm trying to get people to have the most informed and varied outlook in this matter as they can.

quote:It seems you just want to rebel against God, and don't care what the truth is.

Quite to the contrary; I care deeply about the truth, and for me, I have seen and though enough to determine that Christianity is not the truth. I'm not going to shit on your beliefs and say they're wrong, but I will say that they do not work for me. My mind cannot accept Christianity, though it does allow me to accept those who choose Christianity as their path through life.

quote:God IS a just God, and in that justice, He has given us the ability to choose where we want to go in the end.

...without the oppurtunity to change our minds. That sounds foolish and poorly thought out, but in sight of my previous posts, I think you'll be able to see that this single line means a whole lot more than it would alone.

quote:If you are not for God, then you are against Him. Those that are against Him are living in the flesh (for self), and therefor in sin. God cannot be in the presence of sin, because of His ultimate goodness. This rebellion against God deserves punishment, which is the epitome of justice, no?

Of course it would deserve punishment, which is why I think Hell is bullshit; it's not punishment, it is torture.

quote:Who is to say that the Creator of the universe does not have the right to judge His own creation ?

I just think it's fucked up that he's supposedly just but has attributes that I directly correlate to dishonorable.

quote:Be thankful He is 'just' ! That if you so choose, you can stand by His side in Heaven for eternity.

I don't want to be ANYWHERE for eternity...I'd go flip-nuts patty-whack insane.

quote:There are ways to be sure He exists...but that requires an open heart and mind.

Well then, I guess I'm fucked for having a closed heart and mind because I like to have evidence. Look, we are never going to be able to fully understand eachother; you will never know exactly what it's like to be so disgustingly critical in your thinking. YOU can accept faith, I cannot. My mind does not physically allow me to accept blind faith; it MUST have evidence. I'm glad for you that you can have faith, I'm sure it's nice, but I can't do it...and trust me, I've tried before.

quote:Most people feel that they have achieved this openness, but they have not. This is not a judgement statement, this is fact.

What do you consider open-minded? I've opened my mind quite a bit, and I accept a lot of weird things...I just can't accept faith, it's not that I don't want to, I tried many times to accept faith, but my mind rejects it quickly. It does not fit into how my mind works. I know I've used that a lot, but it's the truth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

As a soul, you will have little need for such things as volition. That is something that is characterized by the human brain.

Does the Bible support this idea and if so where?

In Hell, I don't see what the point of volition would be, since you can change your mind all you want, but your fate is sealed. You have your 70+ years on this planet to change your mind. Why should you be given a second chance once you have made your eternal choice, made eternal by physical death ?

You should be given a second chance because God is Love and Compassion. He teaches to forgive. The prodigal son came back and the father accepted him. Please correct me if I am wrong, after people are sent to the eternal lake of fire, the Father does not accept them back. How is this a God of Love, Compassion, Forgiveness? I am sincerely asking, these are questions that torment me on a daily basis.

I believe if the Bible is correct, than God is a hypocrite. In Luke 6:27 and on, the Bible teaches to Love your enemies.

For this reason when a christian speaks to me about faith and hope, it is a false faith and hope, for in thier next breath without batting an eye they speak of wrath being brought down on thier enemies. If God was truly Good (Like I believe He is) he would forgive even His enemies like he says we should.

Matt. 5:43,44

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

How does God, according to the Bible, bless his enemies?

II Thess. 1:8,9

"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Rev. 20:14,15

"14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Is this the same God that says to Love your enemy (Luke 6:27 - )

Luke 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Is God doing the same as sinners?

If the Bible is correct about an eternal, punishment, than I would have to say yes God is acting just like a sinner.

For this reason I don't believe I can trust the Bible though I want to believe. I don't believe in an everlasting tyrranical God.

quote:As a soul, you will have little need for such things as volition. That is something that is characterized by the human brain. In Heaven, it is clear what we will be doing, and the ability to decide for ourselves is not a prevalent factor. This is not to say that we will be mindless. Please read Revelation for an accurate description of Heaven.

quote:Even in Eden, Adam and Eve had a use for their volition. I understand comparing Eden on Earth to the spiritual Heaven is apples and oranges, but the similarity of 'perfection' is there in both. I do not like the Christian 'perfection' because it is void of choice. Heaven, to me, is a place I can exercise my will and choose what I do. Choices are what give me pleasure; to lose my volition would be my personal Hell.

quote:In Hell, I don't see what the point of volition would be, since you can change your mind all you want, but your fate is sealed. You have your 70+ years on this planet to change your mind. Why should you be given a second chance once you have made your eternal choice, made eternal by physical death ?

quote:We have 70 years, for me, that ISN'T enough. I'm a constructive thinker, for me to construct something, I need parts to work with. I cannot come to an acceptable conclusion that god exists when I have no material to work with other than faith (something I believe to be the most flawed method of arriving at conclusions). To me, if there was evidence that even loosely pointed to a god existing, I'd give it a chance again, but I know how I think, how my mind works...unless I have evidence to work with, I'm fucked.

quote:What good will choice be once you are in eternal damnation ?

quote:What good is eternal damnation? Any sort of eternity seems unjust; consequences should reflect your actions, and they do in this life. Heaven and Hell can be achieved on Earth, both simultaneously. Those who live poorly live a hell, those who live well live a heaven...there is no need at all for consequences to be eternal, and they damned well shouldn't be if we truly do have volition.

quote:Optimus, you have expressed your disdain for a just God that has the ability to damn people, and I have answered this disdain with logical, biblical answers many times.

quote:I would have no problem with a god that is just; you view the Christian conceptualized god as just if you wish, but I cannot see any sort of logic in calling a being just if not only do they send you into a tormentuous place, but they do not even provide a means of redemption. Justice is not a tool to balance shit out, it's a tool to correct ones ways. A just God would provide those who have turned their backs on him a way to correct that mistake. BUT, God is not just; I mean, how could he be? How could a vengeful and jealeous God be?

quote:Do you simply ignore my answers, or do you not find them suitable enough to quell your disdain ? If the latter is true, why have you not tried to engage in conversation with me about the subject further ?

quote:I admit, I don't persue the subject further. In all honesty, it's because I value the subject less than I do my cigarettes. I've come to my conclusions a long time ago; I've gotten the answers you've given before, and much more complex and constructed ones as well, but I always end up seeing something in them that allows my mind to reject them as unfulfilling. The answers that I have personally found are enough to satisfy me; my participation on this website is not to seek answers for myself, but to help others see questions they may not have, or to see the issue in another light. I'm trying to get people to have the most informed and varied outlook in this matter as they can.

quote:It seems you just want to rebel against God, and don't care what the truth is.

quote:Quite to the contrary; I care deeply about the truth, and for me, I have seen and though enough to determine that Christianity is not the truth. I'm not going to shit on your beliefs and say they're wrong, but I will say that they do not work for me. My mind cannot accept Christianity, though it does allow me to accept those who choose Christianity as their path through life.

quote:God IS a just God, and in that justice, He has given us the ability to choose where we want to go in the end.

quote:...without the oppurtunity to change our minds. That sounds foolish and poorly thought out, but in sight of my previous posts, I think you'll be able to see that this single line means a whole lot more than it would alone.

quote:If you are not for God, then you are against Him. Those that are against Him are living in the flesh (for self), and therefor in sin. God cannot be in the presence of sin, because of His ultimate goodness. This rebellion against God deserves punishment, which is the epitome of justice, no?

quote:Of course it would deserve punishment, which is why I think Hell is bullshit; it's not punishment, it is torture.

quote:Who is to say that the Creator of the universe does not have the right to judge His own creation ?

quote:I just think it's fucked up that he's supposedly just but has attributes that I directly correlate to dishonorable.

quote:Be thankful He is 'just' ! That if you so choose, you can stand by His side in Heaven for eternity.

quote:I don't want to be ANYWHERE for eternity...I'd go flip-nuts patty-whack insane.

quote:There are ways to be sure He exists...but that requires an open heart and mind.

quote:Well then, I guess I'm fucked for having a closed heart and mind because I like to have evidence. Look, we are never going to be able to fully understand eachother; you will never know exactly what it's like to be so disgustingly critical in your thinking. YOU can accept faith, I cannot. My mind does not physically allow me to accept blind faith; it MUST have evidence. I'm glad for you that you can have faith, I'm sure it's nice, but I can't do it...and trust me, I've tried before.

quote:Most people feel that they have achieved this openness, but they have not. This is not a judgement statement, this is fact.

quote:What do you consider open-minded? I've opened my mind quite a bit, and I accept a lot of weird things...I just can't accept faith, it's not that I don't want to, I tried many times to accept faith, but my mind rejects it quickly. It does not fit into how my mind works. I know I've used that a lot, but it's the truth.

In Eden, Adam and Eve had volition, because they were human, and God created us with free will. The perfection of their creation had nothing to do with their ability to "screw it all up." I don't see how this is a parallel for your spiritual being, i.e. your soul. They cannot be compared. (as you have said)

There is no perfection for Christians while here on earth. Only when we transform into our heavenly bodies do we become "perfect". But, for conversational purposes, I will say that Christianity is not void of choice. You have all the opportunity to choose which path you will take while you are here in earth. That choice determines your eternal fate. I don't think this is a complicated concept.

Your idea of heaven and hell consists of what you hold dear (or what you detest) to you as a human. What will be important to you as a soul will be quite different.

There IS material to work with other than faith...believe me, I was not just some dumb kid with no life experience and no education when I made the decision to give my life to God. I have been through many horrible things, and have spent MANY years looking for truth. The most obvious material is the Bible. But we've been over that.

There is nothing good about eternal damnation. It was not created because it was the desire of God's heart to condemn us. People often forget WHO was responsible for the necessity of the existence of a place like Hell. God was pleased with His creation (us), and loved us from the start. The problems arose when sin entered into the world, which was pretty much at the very beginning of time. Lucifer made sure that he had a foothold, and God allowed it. The reasons are a mystery, even to me, but I don't really concentrate on that since it has very little to do with salvation.

I have to say that your only problem is your actual timeline of events. What you are saying is exactly the way that things are, only in the here and now (physical life) as opposed to after physical death.

You say we should have a choice in Heaven or Hell, but our time for choice is NOW. This is the way God designed it, and it has a purpose.

There are no actions to be taken in Hell. There are no actions to pay for once you are there. You are already paying for your actions; the actions you took while in your physical life on earth.

Once again God doesn't SEND YOU anywhere. He has offered two paths...one is the way to eternal life, and the other the way to eternal death. It is UP TO YOU where you send yourself. Don't you think it saddens God everytime someone dies with the choice of going to Hell ? It is not thought of in terms of choosing the path to Hell, because that would be "far too painful" and literal. But that is, essentially, what you are doing when you don't accept that God is your creator.

You say that God has not provided you a means of redemption, but again, this is your faulty timeline speaking. Jesus was sent to redeem the world of it's sin. But God refuses to force you to believe that. Again, it's up to you. The redemption is there...you just have to receive it.

In this same way, God HAS provided a way for those that have turned their backs on Him a way of deserving salvation. We all have until the day we die to change our minds. As I have said, every breath, every moment, every day that you exist you are given chances. How many chances should you have ? Why should I live the way God wants me to, and go to Heaven, yet you can live the way YOU want to, and when you get to Hell and you realize it sucks, change your mind...and get to go to Heaven ? Doesn't make sense. God was specific in the Bible. Life on earth is our right of passage.

The words 'vengeful' and 'jealous' do not personify God. These terms were used to help us better understand Him. His ultimate motive for creation is still unknown, and will be until we are with Him in Heaven. I understand what you are saying, it makes total sense. But God is not human, so to attribute these qualities to Him, the way you would a human, is fallacy.

I don't believe you value the possibility of a God less than you do a pack of cigarettes. It is physiologically impossible. *shrugs*

I haven't seen too much objective thinking on your part, which would support the claim you have made that you are merely trying to educate the public on both sides of the coin.

You talk about getting high all the time, and drunk...two very admirable human states. (and yes, I have been both MANY times in my past, but I abstain from it now) I don't see how this adds to the value of this forum, and quite frankly, it only serves to invalidate your opinions. I can see from this reply that you are, in fact, an intelligent individual, capable of much more sound reasoning than you have led us to believe in the past. I wish you would stick with that; it is more respectable, and actually enhances the Totse experience.

I don't necessarily construct my answers in a complex, intricate fashion for more than one reason...mostly, because it doesn't really matter either way. When I have provided evidence in the manner which atheists deem acceptable, it is simply shot down as "crap science". When I make valid points, using scripture, I am told that I am "stupid", and that the Bible isn't factual. This is so ridiculous, I don't even know how to respond to it, so I just don't.

If truth was so important to you, you would continually seek it out. It seems, from what you have written, that you are at a proverbial standstill.

"The answers that I have personally found are enough to satisfy me;"

You have determined that your conclusions are correct, and that no more research is necessary. (again, I am basing this on what you have said.) Basically, you are telling me that you know everything you need to know, and therefor don't need to know anything else. The man that claims to have all knowledge is a fool. (I am only referring to your spiritual opinions)

"I have seen and though enough to determine that Christianity is not the truth."

This is an oxymoron, because if you had "seen" anything, you wouldn't disbelieve. You haven't seen anything that would indicate that there IS a God, so you don't believe that He exists.

You are 100% right in saying that your mind will not allow you to accept Christianity, and ultimately, God. You are so much more right than I think you will ever know.

God cannot be logically explained, since He is a spiritual being. There are aspects of Him that can be, and the Bible explains a lot about Him, but fundamentally He cannot be explained. He is more of an "experience" than He is an explainable tangible.

"Look, we are never going to be able to fully understand eachother; you will never know exactly what it's like to be so disgustingly critical in your thinking."

Ahhh...I see. Here we go again. I am Christian, and therefor am incapable of critical thinking.

I was on medication for many years, because of my overactive/overdeveloped tendancies for perfection, critical thinking, and over-analyzing. It has detrimental affects that anyone without this affliction cannot possibly understand. I DO know what you are going through, and it took me a LONG time to finally experience God. My brain and my logic got in the way for many years.

I am still very much this way, but a certain level of clarity has been reached, and it didn't come from me.

Jail is punishment...and everyone would say that it is torture.

Spanking is punishment, and my children would tell you that they view it as torture.

Hell IS punishment, and if that seems like torture to YOU, then I would think you would try your hardest to avoid it.

You attribute God's actions with dishonor, because you have not tried to understand His position. Have you read the Bible, honestly ? So many of the questions you seem to have are answered in the Bible.

As a human, you might go nuts in ANY eternal state (eternal sitting, eternal waking, eternal laughter). Once again, you will be a soul. A completely different physical make-up, with a completely different purpose for existing.

Again, I did not come to my Christian faith blindly. I had evidence. But I had to open myself up to the possibility before it actually happened. It was hard for me...I was so very angry about my life. I have never been able to trust anyone. People always let you down. How could I exhibit the trust I had never known towards a being I had never experienced ? It was a paradox, and was very hard to break through. In my trust for Him, I have learned how to trust people. They still let me down all the time, but I don't have the inhibition and animosity I once had. I could not have achieved this growth on my own, because I didn't want to. My anger was my protective mechanism, and I loved it. It had served me well, but it also ruined my life. (that sounds like rambling, but there IS a point)

It is admirable that you at least have the mental capacity to understand WHY you cannot believe in faith.

But your belief in faith is circumstantial. Do you not have faith that your parents love you ? How do you know ? Where is the verifiable data to prove it ? (just because they took care of you, or "told" you that they did ?)

You have faith that when you fall asleep at night, you WILL wake up in the morning. (whether consciously or not)

You have faith in all kinds of unimportant things that you don't even realize.

So, why not in God ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-13-2004).]

Just read your post, I'll respond later today; I'm going out with a couple of friends for one of their 19ths.

Have fun ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If you read the genealogy given in Genesis, 1 & 2 Kings, etc. you will see that they did in fact live for hundreds of years.

It is not symbolic. The mathematical usage in the genealogy's is evidence of this.

As was pointed out, I believe this information was included in the Bible to accurately date it.

I also don't believe that Adam had the most contact with God, at least not based on what the Bible tells us.

Abraham and Moses lived an amazingly long time because everyone did at that time. It wasn't amazing to them to live that long, because it was common.



To add to this, check this site out: http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1999/r&r9909a.htm

How come no one else in the world from that time period recorded living that long? Did God only give the jews and the people of the middle east this gift? Did God break the laws of cell degradation and biological timespans for those in that region alone? I find it highly unlikely, but look forward to your response.

Edit: Oh, and what was the cause of our shortened lifespans? what made God take that away from us?

[This message has been edited by aTribeCalledSean (edited 08-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Just read your post, I'll respond later today; I'm going out with a couple of friends for one of their 19ths.

Sorry I've yet to hold true to this; I may not be able to. I'm homeless in 3 days and have very limited computer access/time while I try to find a place to go.

This is just a thought... I dont have anything from the Bible (that i can think of, anyway) to back this up.....

Maybe, since we are looking at things from a limited, human point of view, we are putting too much emphasis on the importance of life, and because of that, too much emphasis on death.

From God's perspective, even though He loves us all, we may be something of a pottery hobby for Him, and "life" is the 'kiln'.

But it would be more like a "living kiln". Sin being the imperfections of the art. Choosing Jesus would be the way of removing the imperfections. The end of life, would be like taking the craft out of the kiln.

In this manner, Heaven would be kinda like "God's (living) curio cabinet. And Hell would be like the discarded, imperfect junk pile. But because God allowes us to choose whether we keep the imperfections or not (freewill), it would not mean that God is "cruel" or "unfair" for sending anyone to Hell, because it would have been that persons own choice.

I really dont mean to LESSEN the importance of life, heaven or hell, OR GOD'S LOVE. This is just a thought that occurred to me yesterday at work so if it seems "jumpy" and not "congruent", it is because its still just a thought and i havent had time to analyze it better... but you should have seen the mess in my head when the idea first appeared. lol

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

This is just a thought... I dont have anything from the Bible (that i can think of, anyway) to back this up.....

Maybe, since we are looking at things from a limited, human point of view, we are putting too much emphasis on the importance of life, and because of that, too much emphasis on death.

From God's perspective, even though He loves us all, we may be something of a pottery hobby for Him, and "life" is the 'kiln'.

But it would be more like a "living kiln". Sin being the imperfections of the art. Choosing Jesus would be the way of removing the imperfections.

I believe this much is on the right track. While I certainly don't have all of the answers I believe the whole message is brought down to a few simple thoughts.

The first being faith. For me this means having faith that if God is good...he won't throw people away like broken or messed up pottery.

There are two things that keep me from having this kind of faith in God. 1.) The Bible (specifically eternal damnation) 2.) The legalistic conservative Chritian.

So I started reading more positive things like Mark 10:27 and Mark 12:22-26. Than it hit me...if God can really do what is impossible and all that is needed is faith...and if God really is good and wants us all to come to him and be saved. Then why wouldn't He or Jesus have enough faith to see us all saved! I mean everybody! Think about it some. We might all be saved and not even know it.

Let's take this verse for example: Eph. 2:6,7 How much glory, would God get in showing his grace and kindness if he just threw people in hell. Wouldn't that bring the opposite of praise! More like fear. Holy crap don't cross him or he'll through you in hell. Sounds like Hitler. Now think about how much glory God would get if we all believed we were miserable wretches, like we are, but God saved us anyway. Man!!! The grandstands would erupt with praise and shouts. We would be like....did you see that!!! He just saved us all!!! That wasn't suppose to happen. That's impossible! God is GREAT! I like that perspective better. &lt;smile&gt;

You say that's a nice fantasy...but that's doesn't show what the Bible teaches at all. True....which is why sometimes the Bible steals my hope if I don't keep a positive mind. Then it hit me again...the pharisees in the old testament believed the Gentiles, us or atleast me, were lost no matter what! We didn't have a chance in hell at all. Christ was coming for the Jews. Not for the gentiles. THE PHARISEES BELIEVED THIS BECAUSE OF WHAT THE WORD SAID! Almost sounds like are dogmatic christian friends doesn't it! Look what happened. Jesus came down for the gentiles too!!! And now look...we are still saying crap like they are going to hell! Those bad people over there...sinners. hehe When in truth we are already clean. We just have to forgive others and ourselves as well.

This is big: Romans chp. 14.

I could never get this forgiveness thing until like a couple of days ago it hit me. Jesus talked about as you do unto the least of these you do unto me.(Don't remember where that is) Also see See Matt. 25?? were Jesus talks about the Father/God being one with him and him one with his father... I am going to suggest God is in us...all of us. When we hate on somebody...we are hating on God. But what we can do to be forgiven is forgive. God is in me...I have the power to forgive! Don't think I am being proud. Check it out: Phillipians 2:5-13 Specifically vs 6.

So I have been doing that recently. Forgiving the people even I have hurt for the way that they lashed back at me. For the guy who cut me off. Then I started looking around at all the people around and thinking of them as God. WOW! It put a new perspective to people. They are with God. I am with God...let's just get along. I even forgave in my head the cops who kept me inside. So I have been walking around with relief. No burden. Phil. 2:12 says to work out your own salvation. By God man, FORGIVE YOURSELF! AND THE OTHERS AROUND YOU! This is what God is about. Not condemnation. Are eyes are closed to the Bible...we cannot understand it like the pharisees could not understand it in thier day. More will be shown to us later. But for now let's just believe God is good! Forget this stumbling block faith stealing legalistic conservative christian talk. That aren't in the same place we are. There eyes are blind.

Go back to Romans 14: It talks about meat being good for one and a sin to another. Keep in mind this is back in the day when it was a sin to eat meat. Listen to what vs 22 and 23 say:

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

For God's sake forgive yourself and you'll be happy.

The conservative christian walks around preaching about hell because he is like a two year old that is jealous of the toy you are enjoying and they are not. The reason they don't have it is because they don't have faith. It is a sin for them until they get the faith. Don't let them put a stumbling block in your way and persuade you to think that God is a tyrant and you should condemn yourself. That is not what Jesus preached.

I could be wrong...but I believe it is a healthy way of thinking compared to the alternative.

Be the judge of yourself...God is in you. God is piling on burdens we can't handle to get us to the point we say...I forgive them. I can't handle it anymore. I forgive them AND I forgive me. Watch the peace come. Mark 12:25 But for hope read all around that verse.

The christians bounce you all around in the Bible to show you how to get saved. Well I am going to show you how it could work that everybody would get saved.

Mark 10:27

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

I wonder if it's possible that everybody confesses and is to be saved? &lt;grin&gt;

Oh and don't believe all the BS about God doesn't cross our wills. God hardened the heart of pharaoh. Start looking up the word "will" in the Bible and see if you can find a verse where God doesn't cross our will. I believe you will find just the opposite..in fact here is one for you:

Phil. 2:13

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Didn't wanna qoute cause it was long. But you my friend, are my new favorite MGCBTSOOYG poster. These are my feelings exactly, I seriously love you man.

edit: well not exactly, but you did great man. My religion teacher gave this same kinda talk, objectively of course, but you can tell he's really not into "Jesus is the only way period" kinda guy. I really like him and you remind me of him.

[This message has been edited by aTribeCalledSean (edited 08-17-2004).]

xtreem5150ahm wrote :

"Do you really believe that people leading a Christian life, dedicated to God, have no fun? Maybe you might want to re-evaluate what "fun" means to you. Or perhaps define, to us, what "fun" means to you.

While i feel as though i am still on the road to christian maturity, let me express some of the "fun" things in my life (in no particular order): Being with my family and friends, snowboarding, windsurfing, camping, reading & learning, acting goofy with my step-daughters, making love to my wife, going to museums, playing on the computer, debating in totse, going to church, going out to eat, eating at home, watching movies, going to reneisance faire, watching football (when younger..playing football), traveling, work (most days), swimming, thinking... and the list goes on and on. These things are fun to me, and i dont see them interfering with being devoted to God (except when i occasionaly place them before God).

"

My point is that doing all these things you mention can be called devotion to God even if you are an atheist. By "dedicating life to God" I picture people who remain sexually inactive, avoid all forms of entertainment that God is not specifically included (only christian music for example) etc. These people consider themselves closer to God for "sacrificing" something they don't have. I'm sure God has quite a few laughs with them.

Digital_Savior wrote :

"You misunderstand what I mean when I say "live in the flesh". I don't mean being alive physically, I mean living true to our nature, which is sinful. (We are born into sin)"

This has to do with original sin which is something largely symbolic and has nothing to do with human nature. You have to stop taking everything so literally when even Jesus speaks mostly with symbolic stories. Living true to your nature is not a sin, it is an honor to God's Creation and its properties. And human nature does include logic which separates us from animals.

"The suffering I am referring to is the result of the sin. If you have premarital sex, there is a possibility of an unwanted child, or a disease. Both are painful emotionally and physically. Pain is suffering. Premarital sex is forbidden by God."

No. It is forbidden by Peter and Paul. Allow me to doubt their spiritual connection to Jesus and the fact they understood anything of His teachings. Unwanted children or diseases can be the result of sex in general. "Premarital" can be left out.

"I don't think I need to expound on the suffering that is caused by murdering someone. Murder is sin."

I don't know how I ever gave the opposite impression.

"If you cheat on your spouse, even if you are not caught, guilt will consume you eventually, and almost always results in the dissolution of the marriage. This can be considered suffering. Adultery is a sin."

Ever heard of "love"? Is it possible to be married with someone you do not love? Sadly, it is. Christianity again places human rules above what's given by God. Unfortunately, I have no access to a New Testament right now but I see you practically know it by heart. So you can find the passage where Jesus is asked about divorce and he refers to a time BEFORE marriage laws, when man and woman become one flesh, united by God who is LOVE and not some arrangement by human rules. I think the passage is the same where you took this from :

"As far as marriage and divorce is concerned, I believe the Bible is clear...under no circumstances should one divorce their spouse for ANY reason other than adultery."

That IS true, but we disagree on what adultery is. For me adultery is sex with someone you do not love for that is the TRUE blessed union by God. Marriage does not even enter into it. And that means that adultery is possible even if you are sleeping with your wife or husband and you are not in love with her/him. Peter and Paul's disgusting ideas about the topic show they have no understanding whatsoever on Jesus's teachings (this is clear about Peter on so many passages, I'm sure you know them).

"These sins, which are natural to commit while succumbing to the desires of our flesh, cause suffering and pain."

That's true. The desires of the flesh are something important but we are much more than them. That is why succumbing to them without taking into account the rest of our nature, feelings and thoughts, causes the suffering and pain and that defines it as a sin.

"So, I have a question for you: What are YOU so pissed about ?"

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I am certainly not pissed with people like you who are strong in their beliefs and apparently happy with them. Although, your nickname shows a bit of arrogance :P

What does piss me off is that religion plays a major role in people's lives and forces rules upon them that are against their natures and thusly against God. This happens because people accept as holy and unquestionable something written thousands of years ago. "Search and you shall find" we are encouraged by Jesus. Investigation does not offend God because He is not threatened by the TRUTH. Even the Bible needs to be investigated and actually HAS to be because it contains the knowledge to change the world to the better. So far its effect has been to the opposite because it is not left open to interpretation without cries of "heresy!" and "blasphemy!" drowning you. These are the things that piss me off and I'm only here to discuss of them. I know I'm not the greatest studier of the Bible but it's also true that most people are taught an interpretation of it and hold it as true and never question.