If I was to create an entity, which not only possessed intelligence, but also possessed emotions, will, insight, morals, etc. And if I put this entity in a robotic, or cyborg shell, would it also serve the judgement of "God" as "all humans", and depending on its path in life, go to either Heaven or Hell?

Another question. Should I clone myself, do I also make a copy of my soul? Imagine both clones living totally different lives, one good, the other evil. How would they be judged?

What if, by use of technology, I copied my "soul" and memory onto a digital medium, and continued to live after death (of my body), inside a different shell. What if we were able to duplicate the "casing" of this thing you call a soul. This way, would I be able to live beyond death, and thus escape "God's" judgement?

Come on you leeches, amuse me with some dumbshit answers.

Well, define soul first. If, after you get your defenition, you think its something You can duplicate and would be recognized by God as a soul, it not needing to be created by Him, and your body not needing to be a body, then sure, you would be judged. If you copied your soul, then the soul your body has when it dies will be judged-you'll feel that one, and the other one will go on

Your brain is your "soul".

maybe..or it could be something intangible

I'll be sure to inform you of it next time I shoot myself.

If you clone yourself, the clone would be an actual human being, and would therefor possess a soul.

The creation of a human in the womb is not the aspect that determines whether or not a person has a soul. (for example, God created Adam from dirt...He breathed life into him, and he had a soul. Eve was created from the rib of Adam, and she had a soul.)

God created man to have a soul. ANY man, regardless of how he is created (in a petri dish, or otherwise.)

This cloned individual would be judged, just as anyone else would be.

This dumbshit has spoken.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-20-2004).]

Well Snoopy, a dumbshit question deserves a dumbshit answer.

Your clone would be judged by its actions, etc, just like any other person on Earth.

I guess if you believe in God, and you are able to create an entity which is human, but instead of being organic is digital, and this entity is fully independant, then yes, it could very well go to heaven or hell when it ceases to operate.

From one dumbshit to you, another dumbshit, Snoopy, there is my dumbshit answer for your dumbshit question.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I'll be sure to inform you of it next time I shoot myself.

thanks, i will be awaiting the answer.

cloning yourself would be no different than a twin.

the 'soul', pahahaha

silly

You all fail. You know nothing!

you are asking a question with only one answer. you are asking tha what if, an artificial brain, with all the learning and capability of yourself could be a replication. well of course it could.

but you only learn adn belive what you want. this may have bearing on the answer. what answer do you want, the question is too vauge.

do you make a copy of your soul? to me, i would not see a difference. what else would i care about? maybe a god would, but his existence is so-far doubtful.

But, if I made life. If I programmed a soul. Wouldn't that make me God?

there is no proven god. it would make you whatever you want to be.

Yeah, of course there's not. I'm just looking for answers from some firm "believers".

What you are suggesting is impossible. You could not do this, and neither could anyone else. In order to program a soul, one must know what a soul is made of, which is impossible, since it is intangible.

So, YOU fail, because your hypothetical question is not even hypothetical, because in that sense, a hypothetical scenario COULD be achieved.

If it could, it certainly wouldn't make you God, because God already exists. It would make you a productive creature of the human race. We are capable of creating, and God enabled us with that ability.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-20-2004).]

I can't do it now. It will be possible soon enough though. There are AI programs which behave almost 100% like humans. There are AI programs that pass the Turing test.

Again, because of your faith, you have lost sight of the power of humanity.

I'm 100% sure that emotions can be simulated as well. It's very complicated, but it's not impossible.

So, you're wrong.

Behaviour and emotion can be recreated, because we have a tangible example to replicate.

Where is the soul that you can touch, feel, see, study and understand ? You can't program something you cannot understand.

Without experience from the 5 senses, you can't achieve that. There is no model. No prototype.

What you are talking about is apples, and what I am talking about is oranges.

I am not talking about the inability to recreate a human...I am talking about the inability to recreate a soul.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-21-2004).]

Which gamecube game is this from?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Behaviour and emotion can be recreated, because we have a tangible example to replicate.

Where is the soul that you can touch, feel, see, study and understand ? You can't program something you cannot understand.

Without experience from the 5 senses, you can't achieve that. There is no model. No prototype.

What you are talking about is apples, and what I am talking about is oranges.

I am not talking about the inability to recreate a human...I am talking about the inability to recreate a soul.

Well, obviously you and I have a different definition of soul. The soul is the human brain. We do not understand it 100%, but we understand certain aspects of it, and thus are able to re-create it.

However, you don't need to know how a brain works in order to create something that gives the same results. Even if we didn't know how the soul functions, we know the results of those functions. And by looking at those results, we're able to create something that doesn't necessarily function the same way as a soul/brain, but it gives the same result.

You can go from point A to point B, over many routes. Which one you take is irrelevant, cause you'll end up at B anyway. Some are more efficient than others, require less recourses. But that doesn't matter, if it's the result we're after. And we are.

My point being, we will very soon be able to create something that acts 100% like a human being. Does it have a soul? Yes. Because you cannot act like a human being without a soul. Is that soul the same as the one of a human? No necessarily. Does it give the same results? Yes.

INcasing your soul, I think its called an asphix or something, theres a film called the asphix

If you created such a being then you would be its god

Your god is dead so has no say in the matter

Jesus was a Hippy type if indeed he realy existed, and you knoow how stories get exagerated.

Soul and spirit are two different things. You could, theoretically, copy your soul, or mind, into a programme; but not your spirit.

At death, your spirit goes wherever its go-

ing to go. There's no escape.

That's nice. Here, have a wowwypop.

*laughs at Snoopy*

That was pretty funny...

Anyway, what makes you think your brain is your soul ? What evidence is there to support that ? I don't think too many people, including scientists, agree with your opinion on souls.

Anything you can show me on the subject ? I am open to scientific debate.

I was speaking, um, theologically, as in spirit/soul/body. But I'm still curious as to whether an AI equal or greater than the human mind, would be able to "spiritualize", become self-aware, or God-aware, capable of spiritual experience. Would such matters have any logic behind them, seen through cybernetic eyes? Would it be able to understand what we mean when we speak of spiritual things? Or would we appear, like we do to some people, ignorant or whatever?

[This message has been edited by Pow r T och (edited 07-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

*laughs at Snoopy*

That was pretty funny...

Anyway, what makes you think your brain is your soul ? What evidence is there to support that ? I don't think too many people, including scientists, agree with your opinion on souls.

Anything you can show me on the subject ? I am open to scientific debate.

When you lose your brian, you lose your soul.

There is no "Cartesian Theatre" in our brains that serves as the main arena for our consciousness, where everything just comes together in one central location and somehow configures our personalities, or souls, our "ids". Rene Descartes falls just short of ridicule, in my opinion, with the belief that there is some sort of Master Controller at the helm. It's the grand illusion of self. And it feels really good to let it go.

Daniel Dennett chops it up very well in "Consciousness Explained". That guy just rules. His theories make it seem so obvious, you almost walk away feeling sorta sheepish for even considering that what we feel as The Mind's Eye is the primary force that drives us to think, act, and react.

If you look at it from a gene's viewpoint, then grasp a basic understanding of memes, memeplexes, and how they work (usually against us), it doesn't seem so crazy that a large percentage of humans feel depressed, displaced, confused, or just unhappy in general.

a fascinating read: http://www.spectacle.org/1095/meme.html

oh, and P.S.

I think robotic "programming" is possible. Synthetic Souls capable of creating their own memes and replicating them. Why not?

The notion of a synthetic soul doesn't strike you as odd? Isn't it supposedly intangible and spiritual?

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

When you lose your brian, you lose your soul.

Don't agree in the slightest, and again I say that there is no evidence supporting that.

When the brain dies, consciousness dies. Consciousness is not soul...

The soul, as I understand it, is comprised of your emotions, your intellect; and I suppose that is the mind, housed in the brain. This could be replicated in a cybernetic form, if not now then very soon.

But there is also a spiritual element that lies unaware, asleep or 'dead', as the scriptures say, until regenerated and awakened through the holy spirit. This system, as real as the nervous or circulatory systems, can also be occupied or taken over by demonic forces. Here lie your spiritual faculties, your faith and your spiritual discernment. It is the part of you born of God, enlivened in the second birth, in the spiritual waters, as it were. And then the cultivation and development are up to oneself, with the aid and guidance of the Holy Spirit. A fully-realized person would operate as the Lord Jesus, which was his intention and purpose for us all, and the meaning of salvation and sanctification. Such a person would be capable of anything.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Don't agree in the slightest, and again I say that there is no evidence supporting that.

When the brain dies, consciousness dies. Consciousness is not soul...

There's easy proof of that. You are a person, with a soul. You are able to prove it, with your actions. When I shoot you, in the face, you're not a person anymore. You are dead. To this world, you no longer exists. The idea that your "soul" flies off to some other world, is pathetic. It's something weak people imagine to cool their fear of death.

The only way your "soul" can survive after your death, is through your children, and that is the all natural way. The way "god" meant it to be, the way nature meant it to be. You don't need to be a scientists to see this. It's just that trivial. Anything else is just superstitious and childish belief.

You can call it mystical. What the fuck is mystical anyway? You can call me close minded. I'm just realistic.

so assuming the spiritual soul is bullshit, and going along that soul = brain, why bother with the questions of God's judgement

quote:Originally posted by Durell:

The notion of a synthetic soul doesn't strike you as odd? Isn't it supposedly intangible and spiritual?

The "synthetic" notion of the soul is just that... a notion. It is almost impossible to describe scientifically, because it doesn't consist of any kind of physical matter. We use the most colorful metaphors we can find to describe our "souls", mainly to personalize ourselves and feel Large And In Charge of all of our true beliefs, like there's just an absolute truth there to cling to. My point being:

Consciousness,which we all bullshit ourselves into calling a "soul", just because it makes us feel warmfuzzy and have purpose - it may be composed of emotions and intellect, but Digital_Savior was correct in stating that when your body dies, your consciousness dies. Fucking, right on! It cannot withstand an existence without the body. It's very essence disappears when the brain dies.

I believe it's an accidental flaw in natural selection, a random happenstance that we evolved into thinking, contemplating creatures who would actually REQUIRE these self-inflicted delusions. Since it's been proven that evolution and natural selection doesn't really need a Master Designer to keep it going, it seems almost ridiculous to put any kind of faith or belief into religious or spiritual doctrines.

quote:Originally posted by mland-chic:

so assuming the spiritual soul is bullshit, and going along that soul = brain, why bother with the questions of God's judgement



Exactly. Why bother?

Keep it real.

quote:Originally posted by mland-chic:

why bother with the questions of God's judgement

I don't.

If i believed in a soul or god (which i dont) i'd assume you couldn't create a robot or AI with a "soul" because it would need to be able to do stuff like have faith, which would be really tricky (although maybe not impossible) to do. It would have to be able to think like a human, and we have a pretty fucked up way of thinking. Can a computer have an opinion in the same way as a human?

well, you asked the initial questions and crap about God's judgement, and then said soul = brain, expecting ppl to answer appropriately.

you can't exactly bring religious shit into it and also define that the soul is not distinct from the brain.

Almost forgot, There is a technique I am aware of that would allow one to transfer their consciousness to the body of a willing and prepared subject. A follower of Jesus would probably have no reason to do this except under the most extreme circumstances. But you might imagine one of our left-handed friends (not meaning our dear Snoopy, though I've heard rumours) forceably possessing someone and going from body to body to body, ad infinitum. And I suppose clones could be grown and trained for this. It could be done, if one knew the way and the power. So, hats off to Lao Tzu and, hey, be careful out there.

[This message has been edited by Pow r T och (edited 07-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by mland-chic:

well, you asked the initial questions and crap about God's judgement, and then said soul = brain, expecting ppl to answer appropriately.

you can't exactly bring religious shit into it and also define that the soul is not distinct from the brain.

I'm not religious. This forum is called "Snoopy Can Beat The Shit Out of Your God", remember?

doesnt the brain's cells devide anyway? the closest thing i can think of to it would be the loopback filesysytem. its all dynamic in the brain, our memories are being moved arround. but if we could somehow use nanobots or something to move the braincells to a device that dumps it to silicon while we were still concious then there is a slight possablity it [i]might[i/] work. but then we would still have to simulate the psycollogical requierments (sleeping, emotions...) for it to actually seem like you were there.

i know you're not religious, but that's irrelevant.

if you're going to ask a hypothetical question like that, you can't mix the belief systems for the reason mentioned above, otherwise the questions are just retarded.

bump

quote:Originally posted by mland-chic:



you can't exactly bring religious shit into it and also define that the soul is not distinct from the brain.

Yeah, you can.

...

yeah. nice reasoning there. why don't i just answer "no you can't".

Sorry, but I think I already explained the spirit and soul crap. And as far as reason and science go, science will only work to prove such things inasmuch as it can disprove them. It doesn't matter what Snoopy's reason for doing such a thing mught be, it could be done. The belief system doesn't even matter. It's the technique and the most efficient means of practice. I doubt you could use it as some way to cheat God, though. Not forever, anyway.

well, the questions that have been asked are going with the assumption that God exists. following this belief is also that the soul is distinct from the brain.

"was speaking, um, theologically, as in spirit/soul/body"

it's not spirit/soul/body. spirit and soul are the same thing. rather it's mind/body/soul.

edit: either way, assuming the whole God deal and stuff, and trying to evade his judgement... since he's God and all he'd probably just blast your digital medium to crap or whatever. he's omnipotent and shit. no matter what you do to try to evade him by staying 'alive' he could just use his power to 'kill' you, in whichever form you were in.

i can't exactly imagine this happening:

<DigitalSnoopy> haha! i'm on this computer! i'll never die!!!111

* DigitalSnoopy evades God's judgement forever

<God> wtf?! he's on a computer! woe is me, he has managed to evade my judgement! whatever shall i do?!?!

* God forgets he is omnipotent and could pwn snoopy if he wanted to

[This message has been edited by mland-chic (edited 07-27-2004).]

where art thou snoopy. amuse me.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Your brain is your "soul".

You're an idiot.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

I'm 100% sure that emotions can be simulated as well. It's very complicated, but it's not impossible.

There's the key. Simulated. You said it yourself.

Anything can be simulated, even love and happiness. But is it the real thing ? No sir.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

When the brain dies, consciousness dies.

This is not even certain. When the brain dies, as can be concluded AFAIK from the lack of signs of consciousness of the person and lack of response on the encephalogram, we have lost contact with the consciousness of that person, with his or her soul, and with his or her spirit. In a material way, that is ; parents and such often are able to perceive if their child or loved one is "still there" or not.

What do we actually know about the person's consciousness when the brain has died ? Other than the abovementioned subjective witnessing, do we know where it has gone, or if it still there at all, or if it has died indeed ?

Consciousness is not soul. I do not believe brain has anything to do with the soul; rather the soul affects the brain, to a degree.

There is no proof, and can be no proof, of such a claim.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-30-2004).]

Digital_Savior, did you ever say what your opinion is on the soul of a robot that is programmed to be just like a human? If it acts like a human, should it not be judged like one?

GlitterPunk112358, how are we to judge if a robot 'acted human' ?

Is scratching its nose enough ? Or does it have to play "Für Elise" from Beethoven on the piano, or does it have to bitch and moan about the government ? Or what ?



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 08-01-2004).]

If animals are granted only the barest minimum of rights, don't expect machine rights any time sson