If god suffers this would seemingly make him a fallible and/or weak creature, unable to control his own creation.

If god doesn't suffer it's suggested that he's an unfeeling creature, unable of caring or empathising with his own creation, making him thereby still fallible.

Then there is a the suggestion that "god chooses to suffer".

But, doesn't that still just entail the first suggestion about god being out of control?

More later when my brain wraps around this more tightly.

Cheers,

Lost

Hahhaha, god is my bitch! I bet "he's" one of those sissy types that say: "I'll get even with you when you grow old and/or die."

The way I see it, God created something that grew to be better than him, and now he can't control his own shit. Tough titty bitch, cry me a river.

God in this case being "mother nature" and/or the universe. The idea of God as a creature or entity dumb enough to create the likes of us, is fucking insane. You'd have to be fucked on acid to even think of that.

Wow...that was profound, Snoopy.

Profound, shmound! People who think they're "profound" are tryhards. If you ever drop acid, you'll soon find out that anyone can be "profound".

well, although I don't understand your point I think God suffers whenever we suffer. He's there and He feels what we feel.

I think Jesus may have suffered a little...

What do you consider "suffering"?

i consider suffering to be anything counterproductive or destructive. Uncomfort. Getting shot is suffering, being out of a job is suffering. Additionally God suffering would be suffering for the bad things that would happen out of good now, and His rejoicing as well as hurt when we suffer that will lead to something good

So, God is human?

Hey hey, a decent thread!

quote:

If god suffers this would seemingly make him a fallible and/or weak creature, unable to control his own creation.



Forgive my ignorance, but I don't quite understand the connection between a suffering God becoming fallible and impotent. Could you eloborate on how you came to that position?

Particularly if God chooses to suffer, does that neccessarily entail that God is "out of control"?

quote:being out of a job is suffering

Yeah, not slaving for money sure is tough...I'm suffering like a bitch, what with my enjoyable life and lack of responsibility.

I wouldn't want humans on my resume. Possibly he is just suffering from embarrassment.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

If god suffers this would seemingly make him a fallible and/or weak creature, unable to control his own creation.

If god doesn't suffer it's suggested that he's an unfeeling creature, unable of caring or empathising with his own creation, making him thereby still fallible.

Then there is a the suggestion that "god chooses to suffer".

But, doesn't that still just entail the first suggestion about god being out of control?

More later when my brain wraps around this more tightly.

Cheers,

Lost

Again, 'Whatta WOMAN'!

Metalligod-**wipes up drull**

I believe that if God exists, then He does indeed suffer, but He chooses NOT to. Maybe being uncaring and unsympathetic is His way of coping. I know that if we lame humans can take such an action, He's the master of such an action.

I know full well that I am capable of caring, empathy, and sympathising. However, I choose not to feel so often that I become accustom to such behavior. While not realising that I'm being uncarring, unsympathetic and...

What I'm saying is this, He could choose to be uncaring and all that other stuff, but when you do it for so long it becomes 'who' you are. But, there still lies that capability to become emphatic and sympathetic all over again. He could very well be both.

Maybe this behavior of being uncaring and unsympathetic is what 'The Great Uproar' is between He and Satanial(Satan).

quote:Originally posted by woodlander:

I wouldn't want humans on my resume. Possibly he is just suffering from embarrassment.



Excellent!

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Blah blah this and blah blah that!!!!!!!

Go back to Spurious!

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Go back to Spurious!

Are you on the SA forums, perchance?

Lost I've thought this before. If god suffers then he is fallible. The bible says that God suffers (as in he pities us and has mercy on us and feels negative emotions towards us [remember Sodom & Gomorrah?]). If he is fallible then he is not omnipotent.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Are you on the SA forums, perchance?...If he is fallible then he is not omnipotent...

1.I don't know what SA means.

2.You comment on how God isn't omnipotent if He's fallible, makes absolutely NO SENSE. Just because someone is capable of messing up does not conclude that they're doomed to always mess up on that very thing or anything else. If God is capable of error that does not conclude that He can't learn, why would it? We can.

We are very capable of trial and error. That's how we freakin learn. And you as well as others don't seem to pay close attention to the things you say. You completely disregarded an important element in your argument. The word is, omniPOTENT.

God has the POTENTIAL to be 'perfect'. But then again, perfection is ideal, and therefore truly unattainable on a broad-scale. What is perfection to one varies from being to being, person to person.

God has the POTENTIAL to be 'all-powerful'. The same works on the subject of omniscience. What we learn, God learns. What better way is there to achieve omniscience than by using a very intelligent and very numerous creatures as satelites?

What we learn surely passes on to Him. What we know He either knows already or He learns from what we do.

(But let me remind all of you, I don't believe in God, so don't respond with any Crap about how I'm just say this or that because I'm in favor of God. Just save it)

just a thought...

maybe the term "God suffers" is a way to put what happens to God, into human terms.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

So, God is human?

no. how did you get that out of my post?

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Go back to Spurious!

Go back to eating shut, dumbtard. Another one such, "profound" person, right? Grade A fucking moron.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

no. how did you get that out of my post?

Logic. If God were able to suffer, he'd have to be human. Or at least some kind of organic bag of meat.

god suffers only our inane attempts to understand. perhaps unfortunately, snoopy is correct. the truth is simple, clean, and feels right - not deep, dark, and mysterious.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Logic. If God were able to suffer, he'd have to be human. Or at least some kind of organic bag of meat.

no, not necisarily. Where does the idea that a suffering God is human? He doesn't HAVE to suffer which is the difference.

Plus, wouldn't an all-knowing God know our suffering?

But, yeah, if He couldn't help personal suffering, then He wouldn't be God. But nothing bad happens in heaven so His only suffering is that of ours.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Profound, shmound! People who think they're "profound" are tryhards. If you ever drop acid, you'll soon find out that anyone can be "profound".

I have, many times...I didn't find anything profound about it. Delusions and creations of the mind don't necessarily denote 'profoundness'.

I'm definitely not a try-hard. *laughs* You just sound like someone that is trying to sound more intelligent than he/she really is.

Sorry if that offends, but ya ain't foolin' me none !

God's suffering is just His putting up with humankind. If that is some fallibility, be glad. Otherwise, we might not be here.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every imagina-tion of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented (a word that could be tranlated into something mean-

int to suffer or sorrow) the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved

(an obvious reference to pain and suffering)

him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth..." Gen. 6:5-7

[This message has been edited by Pow r T och (edited 07-20-2004).]

Suffering can be thought of as unhappiness.

Hebrews 2:9-10 "But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings." (NASB)

1 Peter 2:21-24 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (KJV)

1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (KJV)

1 Peter 4:1-2 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (KJV)

Hebrews 2:18 - "For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." (NASB)

God has suffered, and so has Jesus. All of this suffering, interestingly enough, comes/came to them by the hands of man.

Our sin is painful to God...

If you need more verses on the suffering of God, let me know.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I have, many times...I didn't find anything profound about it. Delusions and creations of the mind don't necessarily denote 'profoundness'.

I'm definitely not a try-hard. *laughs* You just sound like someone that is trying to sound more intelligent than he/she really is.

Sorry if that offends, but ya ain't foolin' me none !

If I was trying to sound "more intelligent" as you claim I am, don't you think I'd put a little bit more time and content in my replies, instead of a 13 second, five sentence post?

You're the one who's trying to be "deep" by trying to "expose me". If you haven't noticed, I'm being arrogant. The power of arrogance of course gives me the ability to just walk over everyone's pathetic opinions, including yours. None of you are intelligent enough to deny arrogance anyway. It's quite easy to beat it though.

Oh, by the way. Your attempt at sarcasm was pathetic too. Don't forget. I said something that people were bothered with, and they thus start these pathetic arguments. Not me.

Am I insulted? HAH! If you think someone's opinion can insult me, you're more simple than I thought. Unlike you people, I show no care in your thoughts and ideas, unless they were actually interesting. Which yours sure as hell isn't. Even if it had a meaning. Which it also seemed to lack.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

no, not necisarily. Where does the idea that a suffering God is human? He doesn't HAVE to suffer which is the difference.

Plus, wouldn't an all-knowing God know our suffering?

But, yeah, if He couldn't help personal suffering, then He wouldn't be God. But nothing bad happens in heaven so His only suffering is that of ours.

There is one good way to define God. God, as stated by many is everything. He can be everything, he can see everything, he can hear everything,... etc. Now, I do mean EVERYTHING. How can God, hear something,... which is silent? How can God be cold and warm? How can God be here, and not be here. Just like the bible, or any other religious writing, God can be very well defined in one word. CONTRADICTION.

Uhh, that didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Ok, he can see everything...

Now, your argument is that God can't hear something that is silent. Yeah, so. I think you're taking this all-powerfulness too far. He can't make 2 and 2 5 you know stuff that defies logic. God can't change things like that.

So, then he's not a God anymore? He's just "very" powerful?

God can change whatever He wishes to, however, I think what ZMan was getting at was that God is a God of order. It stands to reason then, that our mathematical system would dictate that 2+2=4, because it is a logical formula.

God IS everything, and you are putting HUMAN boundaries on Him, which just won't work. God can no sooner be explained by human thought, than can the sands of the sea be counted with accuracy.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

...

you misspelled shit*

*LAUGHS*

You're funny sometimes, Mook.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

God can change whatever He wishes to, however, I think what ZMan was getting at was that God is a God of order. It stands to reason then, that our mathematical system would dictate that 2+2=4, because it is a logical formula.

God IS everything, and you are putting HUMAN boundaries on Him, which just won't work. God can no sooner be explained by human thought, than can the sands of the sea be counted with accuracy.

yeah, who said that because something cannot break laws of logic you are not God.

God is our creator though, and perfect and loving which is why I worship Him.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

God IS everything, and you are putting HUMAN boundaries on Him, which just won't work. God can no sooner be explained by human thought, than can the sands of the sea be counted with accuracy.

You ought to put more faith in humans. There's quite a lot we can do, and we're always advancing. What makes you believe we can't outdo God? Become better than "him". Eventually kill "him". Would God destroy us if we ever came close to being as powerful as "he" is?

even if we were as powerful as God we wouldn't be God. he's unique. God wouldn't destroy us just because we are close to being as powerful as Him, but if we were trying to compete with Him, yeah. Tower of Babel

metalligod:

quote:What we learn, God learns. What better way is there to achieve omniscience than by using a very intelligent and very numerous creatures as satelites?

An omniscient being, by definition, cannot learn. He already knows everything.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

If god suffers this would seemingly make him a fallible and/or weak creature, unable to control his own creation.

If god doesn't suffer it's suggested that he's an unfeeling creature, unable of caring or empathising with his own creation, making him thereby still fallible.

Then there is a the suggestion that "god chooses to suffer".

But, doesn't that still just entail the first suggestion about god being out of control?

More later when my brain wraps around this more tightly.

Cheers,

Lost

The fact that god suffers proves that there is no god. If he suffers he lacks self control, and is not omnipotent. If he chooses to suffer then he is to weak to counter whatever is making him suffer, and is not omnipotent. The argument that the christians are about to make, the whole "the bible is the word of god written so humans can understand it" also means that god is incapeable of getting his point across, making him impotent.

So therefor the fact that people worship god proves he does not exist by his own definition.

[This message has been edited by Duck (edited 07-20-2004).]

It is not God that cannot communicate...it is our inability to comprehend Him that makes it necessary for the Bible to exist.

How do you tell a two year old that we can't murder people because the government, comprised of officials that most of us never see, tells us not to ?

Sure, they will hear your explanation, but will they understand it ? Probably not.

So, a parent must simplify the laws and rules that we adhere to, in order to get the point across.

God suffers, but not in the sense that humans do. Who's to say what sort of pain our sin causes God ? I am sure it is nothing we can compare to.

I don't see how this makes Him weak, to suffer through empathy and sympathy, if that is what it even is. (again, who could explain such a thing ?)

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

If god suffers this would seemingly make him a fallible and/or weak creature, unable to control his own creation.

If god doesn't suffer it's suggested that he's an unfeeling creature, unable of caring or empathising with his own creation, making him thereby still fallible.

Then there is a the suggestion that "god chooses to suffer".

But, doesn't that still just entail the first suggestion about god being out of control?

More later when my brain wraps around this more tightly.

Cheers,

Lost

I just did a search for the word "suffer" in the NIV. The first time that string comes up describing God is in Jerimiah 15:15

15. You understand, O LORD; remember me and care for me. Avenge me on my persecutors. You are LONG-SUFFERING--do not take me away; think of how I suffer reproach for your sake.

that sounds to me as though He is patient.

The next time that string occurs refering to God (the Son) is Matt 16:21

21. From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and SUFFER many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

But here it is because of Jesus being true man, as well as true God. (that is what Christianity says about Jesus the Messiah)

Matt 17:12 : Mark 8:31 ; Mark 9:12 ; Luke 9:22 ; Luke 17:25 ; Luke 22:15 ; Luke 24:26 ; Luke 24:26 ; Acts 1:3 ; Acts 3:18 ; Acts 17:3 ; Acts 26:23 ; 2 Corinthians 1:5 ; Phillippians 3:10 ; Hebrews 2:9 ; (this is a one!) Hebrews 2:10 ; Hebrews 2:18 ; Hebrews 5:8 ; Hebrews 9:26 ; Hebrews 13:12 ; 1 Peter 1:11 ; 1 Peter 2:21,23 ; 1 Peter 4:1 ; 1 Peter 4:13 ; 1 Peter 5:1 ; These also have this same conveyance of the word "suffer".

Unless i missed any, all of the other times suffer is used in the NIV, it is associated to people and nations.

Now granted, this was the NIV, other translations may use "suffer" to represent a feeling or emmotion af God, but in the NIV, only one passage uses this string attributed to God the Almighty, and that being His long-suffering .

This does not mean to say that God does, or does not suffer. It just does not say that He does. If you want, i will search other versions, to include literals (but they 'read' funny in english..you know..grammer, masculine/feminine/neutral, etc.)

quote:Originally posted by Duck:

If he chooses to suffer then he is to weak to counter whatever is making him suffer, and is not omnipotent.

[This message has been edited by Duck (edited 07-20-2004).]

how does His choosing to suffer make Him weak? He CHOOSES

The thing is, why would an omniscient, omnipotent being choose to suffer? Their would be absolutely no point in doing so. None.

None that makes sense to you anyway.

An omnipotent being would have no problem explaining it to me don't you think?

Care to give it a jab for him? He's been rather absent...

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

An omnipotent being would have no problem explaining it to me don't you think?

Care to give it a jab for him? He's been rather absent...

i dont think He has been absent, maybe alittle quiet. Perhaps whispering.

So... anyway... can anyone point to me where the Bible (any translation) says that God the Father, suffers?

Bed time.

Good night, and may God Bless you all.

Well, when you show me how he's been whispering, I'll agree...

No, kind thread starter, no matter how hard you wish to argue, I will always be infallible.

I myself am not god, but rather a creation of god himself. He put me on this earth to serve as the reincarnation of jesus. Another son of god.

The problem arose when I arrived here, that no one seemed to take me seriously whne I told them who I was. So, I decided to help the kind people of backyard ballistics.

I teach them so that one day I can seize power and use them as my henchmen for my attack against the non-beleivers!



[This message has been edited by Infallible Prodigy (edited 07-21-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Infallible Prodigy:

No, kind thread starter, no matter how hard you wish to argue, I will always be infallible.

I myself am not god, but rather a creation of god himself. He put me on this earth to serve as the reincarnation of jesus. Another son of god.

The problem arose when I arrived here, that no one seemed to take me seriously whne I told them who I was. So, I decided to help the kind people of backyard ballistics.

I teach them so that one day I can seize power and use them as my henchmen for my attack against the non-beleivers!



[This message has been edited by Infallible Prodigy (edited 07-21-2004).]



for someone who is infallible, i like the way you spell when... whne. lol

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The thing is, why would an omniscient, omnipotent being choose to suffer? Their would be absolutely no point in doing so. None.

maybe to show us He is not unconcerned. That He is not too good for us. If we are His children and We are suffering He will come down to suffer with us. I don't think that is so hard to understand. Wouldn't we do that for our kids.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

maybe to show us He is not unconcerned. That He is not too good for us. If we are His children and We are suffering He will come down to suffer with us. I don't think that is so hard to understand. Wouldn't we do that for our kids.

I think I'd try to stop my kids suffering. I mean if my kid skins his knee or steps on a nail or something I'm going to give him medical help and comfort. I'm not gonna go and step on a fucking nail myself.

G-d's just trying the new fangled lax moderating style.

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

I think I'd try to stop my kids suffering. I mean if my kid skins his knee or steps on a nail or something I'm going to give him medical help and comfort. I'm not gonna go and step on a fucking nail myself.



Yeah, i would want to help too. God is doing the best He can.

He knows our suffering. That is what I mean.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

maybe to show us He is not unconcerned. That He is not too good for us. If we are His children and We are suffering He will come down to suffer with us. I don't think that is so hard to understand. Wouldn't we do that for our kids.

Great, so he is suffering to show us he is not "too good for us" but he doesn't show us he's suffering? There is no current proof an omnipotent being or god exsits now, let alone that he suffers. It would be a moot point.

Also, if we consider the being to be the bible god, that pretty much refutes the fact that he's showing us "he's not too good for us"...

quote:Originally Posted by: Bitchy

Go back to eating SHUT, dumbtard. Another one such, "profound" person, right? Grade A fucking moron.

Bitch, what the fuck is 'shut'? 'Dumbtard'? Sounds like gay curse words. I don't want to 'grade a fuckin moron', no Bitchy, I don't want to grade you.

quote:Logic. If God were able to suffer, he'd have to be human. Or at least some kind of organic bag of meat.

You're a "Profoundly" stupid bitch, go back to humping your dad's legs. There is more than one fuckin way to suffer dumbass, you're suffering from ShitBrainsolytus CockwhoreFagstritus. Did you ever hear a shaggy looking dude named...say, JESUS?!?!?!

And just why in the hell would God have to be in a 'bag of meat' in order to suffer? Explain your reasoning, ya know what, never mind, I can't even pretend to understand one whose circuitry consists of something that comes out of my ass.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

metalligod:

An omniscient being, by definition, cannot learn. He already knows everything.

What's your point? Again, I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE. I should also add that I don't recall saying that God is omniscient. I recall asking a question that said 'what's a good way to achieve omniscience'.

Sorry, but you've gotten your wires crossed. Try again. And let's not regress back to 'putting words in my mouth', MOVE ON.

Again, I don't recall having said that God was omniscient, so could you plz direct everyone to part that proves otherwise?

Well you were answering someone that was referring to the bible god (deptstoremook: "If god suffers then he is fallible. The bible says that God suffers". The bible god being omnipotent and omniscient. Hence I assumed you were referring to the same since you were answering him...

You also said:

"The same works on the subject of omniscience. What we learn, God learns."

Which once again threw me off.

If you were not referring to an omniscient being then my mistake, it sure seemed that way.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Great, so he is suffering to show us he is not "too good for us" but he doesn't show us he's suffering?



Jesus suffered didn't He? Was that too obvious? And wouldn't it be right if He allowed us to suffer He should suffer with us?

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Are you on the SA forums, perchance?

Lost I've thought this before. If god suffers then he is fallible. The bible says that God suffers (as in he pities us and has mercy on us and feels negative emotions towards us [remember Sodom & Gomorrah?]). If he is fallible then he is not omnipotent.

It may be wrong to equate suffering with fallability, and the source of this might be the same as that of the appearance, in the early twentieth century, of the American superheroes. This view of fallability may be a typical human one, in his limited view.

Suffering, or the ability to feel suffering, may actually permeate the entire cosmic spectrum of intelligence. I believe, in any case, that the most aware and intelligent creatures or beings are able to experience suffering most of all. Fruitflies or flatworms may, appear to be uncomfortable under certain conditions, but I'd hardly call that real suffering. How can there be suffering if there is no awareness ? The answer is obvious if you think of the many people who seek escape from their suffering through drugs or alcohol, or other ways.

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 07-22-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 07-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

Logic. If God were able to suffer, he'd have to be human. Or at least some kind of organic bag of meat.

Absolutely, but absolutely not. Suffering is in the consciousness.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

no, not necisarily. Where does the idea that a suffering God is human? He doesn't HAVE to suffer which is the difference.

Plus, wouldn't an all-knowing God know our suffering?

But, yeah, if He couldn't help personal suffering, then He wouldn't be God. But nothing bad happens in heaven so His only suffering is that of ours.



Very sensible, Zman.

This is what I would actually call profound.

"He doesn't HAVE to suffer which is the difference."

And if He does suffer, in the end it may indeed be only because of His love for humanity. Why else would He choose to do so ?

Isn't this reminiscent of the Gospels and the teachings of Christ ? I may just be speculating a bit, but so be it.

quote:Originally posted by Snoopy:

CONTRADICTION.

Well, obviously what is contradiction to us in our minds, shouldn't be so to God's mind.

In a way contradiction is the entire point, an escape from bilateral thinking and logomachy. The unexplainable explained through a definition of undefinition. Eternity tantamount to things temporal and intemporal all at once.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Jesus suffered didn't He? Was that too obvious? And wouldn't it be right if He allowed us to suffer He should suffer with us?

There is no concrete proof Jesus even existed, let alone that he was the son of 'god' or god himself. Like I said, he supposedly suffers 'to show us that he isn't better than us', but he doesn't show proof that he exists or that he is suffering? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-22-2004).]

Wow, I actually got intelligent responses and lot's of them. I'm impressed. It gives me hope for the totse community.

Anyways, for those of you who say that that proves there is no god, I disagree. I don't think it really proves anything one way or the other. I think it only goes into deeper speculation of what the/a creator is more like.

Is it a weak and powerless being? If it is, is it worth our worship? Is a creator only worth our worship if it is powerful and excercises it's power frequently? What if it is a powerful and unfeeling god? Does it's acts of ruthlessness make it worthy of worship?

What makes something worthy of worship? What does worshipping mean, exactly? What does it mean to you? Out of curiosity.

O, and thank you Mettaligod. *blush*

And, it just isn't a thread without the Snoopy.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

There is no concrete proof Jesus even existed, let alone that he was the son of 'god' or god himself. Like I said, he supposedly suffers 'to show us that he isn't better than us', but he doesn't show proof that he exists or that he is suffering? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-22-2004).]



ok. whether He shows us proof is another big topic.

Fine. That still means your claim wasn't substantiated... meaning, my question is still unanswered...

this whole topic was under the supposition that there is a God. I just furthured it to Jesus. Sorry. Whoa. My bad. Disgusting.

but you want proof God exists? Is that what you really want?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well you were answering someone that was referring to the bible god (deptstoremook: "If god suffers then he is fallible. The bible says that God suffers". The bible god being omnipotent and omniscient. Hence I assumed you were referring to the same since you were answering him...You also said:"The same works on the subject of omniscience. What we learn, God learns."Which once again threw me off.If you were not referring to an omniscient being then my mistake, it sure seemed that way.[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-22-2004).]

Yeah I was referring to God(Notice the capitalization of the name, 'God'. It denotes the fact that I was refering to the name of someone or something).

I was referring to 'the bible god'. But you totally miss the point of this thread, hell, you totally miss the point of this entire site. It's purpose it to be a place here people come to learn and/or voice their opinions.

So the hell what 'the bible god' is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. It doesn't mean that it's true. The bible also says that God is a real being, does that make it true? Your logic suggests that you'll become the fool to everything you read. The bible also says that every fuckin human on the planet came from two naked-asses in a garden, one of which, was a clone of the other, should everyone believe that that's true even though science proves/suggests otherwise?

Oh, plz do answer those questions, but before so, let me tell you ahead of time that you'll most likely loose a lot of respect to suggest that we become brainless followers to everything we read. Yeah the bible says this and that, but again, that DOES NOT make it true. I've used the bible several times to prove that God is NOT omniscient/omnipotent.

If needed I could repost that 'chorus' of deductive reasoning again. In case you're wondering, NO, it's not that 'Job' thing.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:



I was referring to 'the bible god'. But you totally miss the point of this thread, hell, you totally miss the point of this entire site. It's purpose it to be a place here people come to learn and/or voice their opinions.

How did I miss the point? Did I tell you, you could not voice your opinion? No.

You're free to voice your opinion as I am free to voice mine. Guess what... I did.

quote:So the hell what 'the bible god' is said to be omniscient and omnipotent. It doesn't mean that it's true.

If you are dealing with the bible god then you must take what claims made by the bible as true, for the sake of that argument. You may believe they are not true, but if you're referring to the bible god in an argument, then you're referring to a god that is omnipotent and omniscient in that argument.

quote:The bible also says that God is a real being, does that make it true? Your logic suggests that you'll become the fool to everything you read. The bible also says that every fuckin human on the planet came from two naked-asses in a garden, one of which, was a clone of the other, should everyone believe that that's true even though science proves/suggests otherwise?

From where do you make those assumptions? I never said what the bible claimed was true. I did say that if you're referring to the bible god in an argument then for the sake of that argument, the claims of the bible must be taken as true. Those being, among others, that god is omniscient and omnipotent.

Therefore my argument was correct. If you're taking about the bible god or any omniscient being, then he by definition cannot learn.

quote:Oh, plz do answer those questions, but before so, let me tell you ahead of time that you'll most likely loose a lot of respect to suggest that we become brainless followers to everything we read. Yeah the bible says this and that, but again, that DOES NOT make it true. I've used the bible several times to prove that God is NOT omniscient/omnipotent.

Read above. I really have no clue from where the hell you got that I believed that the claims made in the bible were correct.

What I'm saying is, that if you're referring to the bible god in an argument then you obviously must take what the bible says of god as true, if not you wouldn't be talking about the bible god.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

this whole topic was under the supposition that there is a God. I just furthured it to Jesus. Sorry. Whoa. My bad. Disgusting.

but you want proof God exists? Is that what you really want?

You still don't get it. Lets say a god does exist. So what? My point is that he offers no proof of his existence or proof that he suffers.

Hence, your answer to my question: "he does it to show that he isn't better than us" doesn't work! For him to 'show us he's not better', he would have to show us he suffers (and exisists) in the first place! Right? How the fuck would we know he is "not better" if we don't even know he exists or suffers because he hasn't shown any proof?

And yes, please show me proof that an omnipotent, omniscient being exists.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You still don't get it. Lets say a god does exist. So what? My point is that he offers no proof of his existence or proof that he suffers.

Hence, your answer to my question: "he does it to show that he isn't better than us" doesn't work! For him to 'show us he's not better', he would have to show us he suffers (and exisists) in the first place! Right? How the fuck would we know he is "not better" if we don't even know he exists or suffers because he hasn't shown any proof?

And yes, please show me proof that an omnipotent, omniscient being exists.



My point was that we were talking about why God would suffer. I don't need to back up my claims there is a God because that's not what we were talking about. God was a given in this topic.

I don't know what your problem is. You always find some stupid thing you don't agree with to piss someone off and get the whole discussion off topic.

Look, my point is, whether there is a God or not is a different discussion so don't bring it into this discussion where there is a built in supposition that there is a God.

Sorry but you replied to my question. My question was: "Why would an omnipotent being choose to suffer?"

You said to show us he 'isn't better than us'. I was showing you that he must give evidence that he suffers in order to show us that 'he isn't better than us'.

How the fuck would I know 'he isn't better than us' if there's no proof that he suffers?

I'm not saying that god existence wasn't taken as "given" in this thread, I acknowledge that. What I was saying is that your answer to my question doesn't work.

Moreover if you read closely what I said, you will notice I said, "There is no current proof an omnipotent being or god exsits now, let alone that he suffers" to show how lacking of proof the argument is, not to question the existence of god.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Sorry but you replied to my question. My question was: "Why would an omnipotent being choose to suffer?"

You said to show us he 'isn't better than us'. I was showing you that he must give evidence that he suffers in order to show us that 'he isn't better than us'.

How the fuck would I know 'he isn't better than us' if there's no proof that he suffers?

I'm not saying that god existence wasn't taken as "given" in this thread, I acknowledge that. What I was saying is that your answer to my question doesn't work.

Moreover if you read closely what I said, you will notice I said, "There is no current proof an omnipotent being or god exsits now, let alone that he suffers" to show how lacking of proof the argument is, not to question the existence of god.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-23-2004).]

and i was saying this evidence you speak of is for a different topic. yes of course you need evidence God exists, but I'm not discussing it now, as it doesn't warrant discussing here.

Did you even read what I said? I said I don't want evidence of god existing! I already acknowledge that his existence was taken as 'given' in this thread.

What I want is evidence of god suffering,

which has everything to do with this thread.

If you would have followed the simple guideline of posting proof that he suffers or shutting the hell up, this thing wouldn't have lasted as much as it has now.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

[B]

For him to 'show us he's not better', he would have to show us he suffers (and exisists) in the first place! Right? How the fuck would we know he is "not better" if we don't even know he exists or suffers because he hasn't shown any proof?

B]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Did you even read what I said? I said I don't want evidence of god existing! I already acknowledge that his existence was taken as 'given' in this thread.

What I want is evidence of god suffering,

which has everything to do with this thread.

If you would have followed the simple guideline of posting proof that he suffers or shutting the hell up, this thing wouldn't have lasted as much as it has now.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-23-2004).]



what guideline?

ok, i believe there is proof. at least enough for me, and the fact that God suffers means something to me.

Again, I was showing how there is no proof. None. No proof of he existing, no proof of he thinking, no proof of he creating, or proof of he suffering, no proof period.

-

Fine, you could think there is proof, but when you're going to argue that he could suffer to show us that he isn't bettet then you need to bring proof that he suffers in the first place, period. You haven't.





[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-23-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Again, I was showing how there is no proof. None. No proof of he existing, no proof of he thinking, no proof of he creating, or proof of he suffering, no proof period.

-

Fine, you could think there is proof, but when you're going to argue that he could suffer to show us that he isn't bettet then you need to bring proof that he suffers in the first place, period. You haven't.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-23-2004).]



how did you show there was no proof of God's existance.?

well, have a nice night rust i'm going to bed.

Because no proof has ever been offered. There could exist proof somewhere hidden in antartica... that still doesn't change the fact that there is none now. Since, there is no proof now, my statement remains valid till proof is produced.

P.S. For someone so concenred with the de-railing of a thread, you sure make alot of 'out-of-topic' questions...

ah, the immaturity of I-Get-Last-Word may have claimed another thread. Quite a pity it was a good speculation too. I implore you chaps you save you're "he's real!" "he's NOT real!" "he's real!" "he's NOT real!" debate for the school yard.

I think this thread is coming along fine. No flaming yet. That's good enough for me.

Zman, I agree. Generally speaking I don't think people (who believe or don't believe) want to know for sure if god exists. If you know, after all, what's the point of having faith? (rhetorical)

Cheers,

Lost

for people who think there is proof then my belief about His suffering is valid. I was saying if there's proof there is a God then I think He suffers.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

for people who think there is proof then my belief about His suffering is valid.

You mean for those who have faith... since there is no explicit proof... That pretty much shows you how he has no intention of proving he suffers in order to 'show that he isn't better than us'.

Moreover, if we're talking about the bible god, I would say that point is moot seeing as how bible has countless episodes of god 'showing how better he is'.

Yes, for people who have faith.

Mostly it's logic. A loving God will know our suffering. He's not distant and unconcerned. This line of thought doesn't really matter though if you don't believe in God.



[This message has been edited by Zman (edited 07-24-2004).]

Logic? Logic would lead you to believe that if an omnipotent being exists, and he suffers because he gives a shit about us believing 'he's not better than us', then that god:

1. Would give clear evidence that he exists (Yes I know that this is a 'given' in this topic, but that still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't)

2. Would give clear evidence that he suffers.

3. Would not "inspire" a bible that does exactly the oppositie of showing us that 'he's not better than us'. (That is, if you're referring to the bible god)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Logic? Logic would lead you to believe that if an omnipotent being exists, and he suffers because he gives a shit about us believing 'he's not better than us', then that god:

1. Would give clear evidence that he exists (Yes I know that this is a 'given' in this topic, but that still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't)

2. Would give clear evidence that he suffers.

3. Would not "inspire" a bible that does exactly the oppositie of showing us that 'he's not better than us'. (That is, if you're referring to the bible god)



i cant believe you two are still argueing over this. The Bible does not say that God (the Father) suffers/suffered. And it does not say that He doesnt either.



in the literal Bible, i think this is the word everyone is hung up on as God suffering...

this is from Gen 6:6--the begining of the flood story



|5162| And felt sorry Strong's Ref. # 5162

Romanized nacham

Pronounced naw-kham'

a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):

KJV--comfort (self), ease [one's self], repent(-er,-ing, self).

The thing is, i think, that when God tells us that He grieves, or is angered, or any other emotion, He is saying telling us these things from our reference point...so we can understand. Being omnipotent and omnicient, before He created anything, He already knew/knows everything that would happen from the beginning to the end. Including Lucifer's rebellion and Man's fall from grace.

The way i understand Zman, when he said 'he's not better than us', i think he means that God is showing us that we can turn to Him, that He understands our troubles and feelings.

If i'm wrong Zman, i'm sorry.

Rust, I have purposely not answered your request for showing how He has been whispering... i think you need more time to think about this.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



i cant believe you two are still argueing over this. The Bible does not say that God (the Father) suffers/suffered. And it does not say that He doesnt either.

You don't understand.

I asked a question. He answered. Now I'm showing him how his answer doesn't work.

I asked, why would an omnipotent being choose to suffer?

He said that maybe he does it to show how 'he's not better than us'. I replied that for that theory to work, he (god) would have to show proof that he suffers. We would need proof he suffers in the first place before we can know the 'he's doing it to show he's not better than us', right?

quote:

Rust, I have purposely not answered your request for showing how He has been whispering... i think you need more time to think about this.

I'm curious, why do I need more time to think about this? Because I asked for proof?

quote:You don't understand.

yes i do understand

quote:I asked a question. He answered. Now I'm showing him how his answer doesn't work.

I asked, why would an omnipotent being choose to suffer?

which is why i tried to point out that the Bible does not indicate that He does or does not suffer, atleast not in the same terms as we suffer, which is why we could not know why He would choose this (key words are 'would' and 'choose'), hence my amazement that you two still argue about it.



quote:

Rust, I have purposely not answered your request for showing how He has been whispering... i think you need more time to think about this.

I'm curious, why do I need more time to think about this? Because I asked for proof?

I simply was letting you know that i have not ingnored this without a reason. Nor have i forgotten to respond.

God Bless you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I simply was letting you know that i have not ingnored this without a reason. Nor have i forgotten to respond.

God Bless you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)





I know. It was the "you(me) need more time to think about this" of which I'm referring to...

^may i expound on your behalf, xtreem?

rust, you need more time to think about it because it's a riddle meant to appeal to your intuitive senses - i.e., "you can't hear god, whispering if you're busy talking, so shut up" is basically what xtreem meant.

now let's just hope that xtreem doesn't literally believe that god is whispering, or the intuitive nature of the point is lost.

edit: there is no proof required. you either get it or you don't, and xtreem does not care one way or the other. (again - hopefully)



[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 07-24-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Logic? Logic would lead you to believe that if an omnipotent being exists, and he suffers because he gives a shit about us believing 'he's not better than us', then that god:

1. Would give clear evidence that he exists (Yes I know that this is a 'given' in this topic, but that still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't)

2. Would give clear evidence that he suffers.

3. Would not "inspire" a bible that does exactly the oppositie of showing us that 'he's not better than us'. (That is, if you're referring to the bible god)

No I don't think it's logical that He would give us what you would call clear evidence.

I don't think the Bible shows us the opposite that he's not better than us.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

^may i expound on your behalf, xtreem?

rust, you need more time to think about it because it's a riddle meant to appeal to your intuitive senses - i.e., "you can't hear god, whispering if you're busy talking, so shut up" is basically what xtreem meant.

now let's just hope that xtreem doesn't literally believe that god is whispering, or the intuitive nature of the point is lost.

edit: there is no proof required. you either get it or you don't, and xtreem does not care one way or the other. (again - hopefully)



Of course there is proof required! Although, there could be proof that I could not reproduce, for example, if I saw something that could not be possibly explained with Science ( and nobody else saw it). That's still proof, to me.

So proof is absolutely required. If not, I could say Satan, Freya, Hitler and the 'Mighty Pink Unicorn of Death' were all "whispering" to me... I could say "LOTHORK the Slayer of Gods, mightier than the bible god himself" was talking to me... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

He either proves to me that an omnipotent being is whispering, and or I prove it to myself. I have given time to both of these, none of which have happen, and I'm confident to say that none of which will ever happen.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-24-2004).]

won't happen to you

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

No I don't think it's logical that He would give us what you would call clear evidence.

Then he isn't suffering to show us how he isn't better!

We would have to know that he's suffering in the first place to then know the 'he isn't better'. How do we know this? With evidence. Not with faith, which is the exact opposite of knowledge.

Hence, he must give evidence in order for your answer to be correct.

quote:I don't think the Bible shows us the opposite that he's not better than us.

Right. The bible only tells how he is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, kills thousands of people in one fell swoop, brought about the plagues, brought about the biggest flood in history, smites people arbitrarily.

Nope... nothing that he's better than us... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

won't happen to you

Edit: I understood what you meant... hopefully:

Yes, it won't happen to me. So? That's my point, in order for him to prove that god whispers he either has to show me proof, or I prove it to myself. If it won't happen to me, then it's up to him to prove it.

I implore him: "Please prove to me that he whispers!"

I'll be waiting.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-24-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

^may i expound on your behalf, xtreem?

rust, you need more time to think about it because it's a riddle meant to appeal to your intuitive senses - i.e., "you can't hear god, whispering if you're busy talking, so shut up" is basically what xtreem meant.

now let's just hope that xtreem doesn't literally believe that god is whispering, or the intuitive nature of the point is lost.

edit: there is no proof required. you either get it or you don't, and xtreem does not care one way or the other. (again - hopefully)



[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 07-24-2004).]

Eil, you are very close. But it was not meant as a riddle. Yes, i do believe God is 'talking' to us all the time (literally). MANY things that we write off as coincidence, may be His 'whispers".

For a poor example, I have been 'wrestling' with a reoccurring, particular sin. Because of certain reasons and situations, I can not discuss this sin with anyone except God. "Coincidentally", i get SPECIFIC answers from many sources (acquaintances, television, radio, overheard from other conversations, even in this part of TOTSE, etc.). Thursday morning, I heard a specific answer on christian radio. Although it was correct, it was not acceptable because it was incomplete. I prayed that it wasnt answer enough. Thursday evening, while driving home..different station, different commentator, even more specific answer..so specific that it was as if i had told 'the guy in the radio' the exact details of my sin, and my (mis)understanding of what the Bible says. I am not saying that my sin is unique, but the details were exact.

I'm sure this was as clear as mud, but until i have a better understanding of overcoming this sin, i have to stay vague, mainly so i dont create a "stumbling block" for anyone.



As far as proof goes, it is only known by each individual person, but you are right, either you get it or you dont...but i DO care, else i would not have brought it back up.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Right. The bible only tells how he is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, kills thousands of people in one fell swoop, brought about the plagues, brought about the biggest flood in history, smites people arbitrarily.

Nope... nothing that he's better than us... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Proof enough for those who believe in Him. or faith or whatever..

Did it ever to occur to you that maybe the world would be a lot worse place if God didn't kill those people?

Anyway if you're really sincere about getting proof you will. If you're be cynical then you probably won't. I'll pray for you.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Proof enough for those who believe in Him. or faith or whatever..

Then his intent isn't really to show he isn't better! You can't 'show' or prove something with faith. You have to prove it with evidence.

Therefore like I said, if his intent was to show people that 'he isn't better' then he must offer proof that he suffers. He hasn't.

Faith isn't proof, since for all you know I could have proof that LOTHARK the god-slayer exists and that he is even more powerful than your god...

quote:Did it ever to occur to you that maybe the world would be a lot worse place if God didn't kill those people?

No. I don't believe anything in the bible concerning the paranormal/supernatural.

Even if I were to believe it, with that line of reasoning I could justify murdering your parents! I mean, hasn't the thought ever occur to you that maybe the world would be a worse place if your parents continued to live? I must kill your mother, for the sake of the universe!

quote:

Anyway if you're really sincere about getting proof you will. If you're be cynical then you probably won't. I'll pray for you.

Why must I be sincere (which I am)? He only shows proof to those who 'really really want proof'?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Eil, you are very close. But it was not meant as a riddle. Yes, i do believe God is 'talking' to us all the time (literally). MANY things that we write off as coincidence, may be His 'whispers".

For a poor example, I have been 'wrestling' with a reoccurring, particular sin. Because of certain reasons and situations, I can not discuss this sin with anyone except God. "Coincidentally", i get SPECIFIC answers from many sources (acquaintances, television, radio, overheard from other conversations, even in this part of TOTSE, etc.). Thursday morning, I heard a specific answer on christian radio. Although it was correct, it was not acceptable because it was incomplete. I prayed that it wasnt answer enough. Thursday evening, while driving home..different station, different commentator, even more specific answer..so specific that it was as if i had told 'the guy in the radio' the exact details of my sin, and my (mis)understanding of what the Bible says. I am not saying that my sin is unique, but the details were exact.

I'm sure this was as clear as mud, but until i have a better understanding of overcoming this sin, i have to stay vague, mainly so i dont create a "stumbling block" for anyone.



As far as proof goes, it is only known by each individual person, but you are right, either you get it or you dont...but i DO care, else i would not have brought it back up.

sorry, xtreem, i wish i had nailed it on the head like you did. you're right, god is whispering to us all the time. i see my proof now, but i can't explain it.

(twirls finger in a circle around temple, points to xtreem)

You're right I can't show something with faith. That doesn't change anything.

If God struck my parents down for the betterment of the universe, I would be sad, but if God though it necessary...

Anyway your proof is out there.

quote:You're right I can't show something with faith. That doesn't change anything.

Of course it changes nothing, it just means I was right from the beginning.

quote:If God struck my parents down for the betterment of the universe, I would be sad, but if God though it necessary...

Don't change the scenario. With that logic (i.e. "Haven't you ever thought that the universe would be worse if they lived?") I would be justified in killing your parents as well.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

sorry, xtreem, i wish i had nailed it on the head like you did. you're right, god is whispering to us all the time. i see my proof now, but i can't explain it.

(twirls finger in a circle around temple, points to xtreem)

lol... gee, now i smell sarcasm

"well, they think i'm a dummy but i aint. i'm gonna get my truckers license one day"

Eil was being sarcastic all along? Well I feel dumb.

OMG, this was hilarious ! *laughs*

You guys are too much. I'd give my take on all of this, but I am just way too tired to make anything coherent appear.

(and please save your comments about how I never post anything coherent.)

Well I think god does suffer and he takes it out on us humans.

I think god needs some pussy,mabie he should rape another virgin.

2000 years is a long time.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Don't change the scenario. With that logic (i.e. "Haven't you ever thought that the universe would be worse if they lived?") I would be justified in killing your parents as well.

I didn't change the scenario. It's not the same logic.

You were'n't right from the beginning

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

I didn't change the scenario. It's not the same logic.

Yes you did, since said I was going to kill them, not god and I didn't ask you if you would be okay with god killing them.

Anyways, why is it not the same logic? I can tell you for a fact that I know the universe will be worse of if your parents are allowed to live. Therefore I must kill them.

I'll offer you the exact same evidence that god offered in the bible: NONE. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:

You were'n't right from the beginning

Well in order for you to prove I was incorrect, then you have to refute my statements. You haven't.

Again, in order for god to show us 'he isn't better than us' he must use proof that he suffers. He hasn't, therefore you were incorrect.

You say I was wrong from the beginning, so please refute the statement.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well in order for you to prove I was incorrect, then you have to refute my statements. You haven't.

Again, in order for god to show us 'he isn't better than us' he must use proof that he suffers. He hasn't, therefore you were incorrect.

You say I was wrong from the beginning, so please refute the statement.

You haven't refuted my statement, although maybe we're trying to make differnet points.

Well, I don't trust you, but I trust God. But maybe the universie would be better if you killed my parents. I admit that. I still wouldn't like it

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

You haven't refuted my statement, although maybe we're trying to make differnet points.

I can't refute something which has no evidence to support it.

You said that he was doing it to show how he isn't better than us. I said that he couldn't since he isn't showing evidence that he's suffering; a god can't "show us how he's not better than us" via suffering, if he doesn't show any evidence that he suffers in the first place!

My statement remains correct unless proven wrong, in other words, unless it's refuted. Hence, YOU must now show proof that he is suffering since your whole refutation depends on it.

Guess what, I've been asking for evidence since the beginning and you've shown nothing, therefore I have been correct since the beginning.

quote:

Well, I don't trust you, but I trust God. But maybe the universie would be better if you killed my parents. I admit that. I still wouldn't like it

I'm not asking you if you would like it or if you trust me. I'm asking you if I would be justified in killing them? Keep in mind, I am offering the same exact amount of proof as your god did in the bible. That being: None.

and i said He shows us with logic

You're not God so no I don't believe you have the right to kill my parents.

quote:Originally Posted By Rust:

How did I miss the point? Did I tell you, you could not voice your opinion? No.

You're free to voice your opinion as I am free to voice mine. Guess what... I did.

You totally missed the point because you're whining about something that has to do with someones opinions(ME). No you didn't not say I could voice my opinion and that has nothing to do with what I said, so again YOU MISSED THE POINT.

It is your opinion that I "MUST" speak on God in a certain way which makes you a hypocrit and a habitual contradictor of yourself. In earlier times you've gone as far as to say that I "HAVE TO" do this or that thing when speakin of 'the god of the bible'.

Guess what... your opinion is bullshit because it's not an opinion at all it is a declaration on the behaviors of others and it was stated authoritively. Sorry! Try again.

quote:If you are dealing with the bible god then you must take what claims made by the bible as true, for the sake of that argument. You may believe they are not true, but if you're referring to the bible god in an argument, then you're referring to a god that is omnipotent and omniscient in that argument.

NO I MUST NOT. I DO NOT have to say God is this or that because the bible says He is. SO THE FUCK WHAT. Before you go along telling people what they must and must not do, you need to get your information and facts straight, ok?

You first need to know that the bibile is SUPPOSED to be a translation the Hebrew religion, but as I've tried on numerous occations to forge to you, the fact that it was horribly MISTRANSLATED you've completely disregarded that fact.

Most of what is said in the bible is not in the original and the bible is therefore fallible evidence and info, and should/would not be taken as complete truth by any intelligent being. The bible says God is this or that but other tells in the bible PROVE otherwise, therefore it is not wise to take it as truth when speaking on 'the bible god'.

If you were to take everything in the bible as truth then you'd be a pretty dumb motherfucka, even if it is for the the 'sake' of an argument on the matter. Because, again, the bible has stories that contradict each other.

That's just like if it were that Dracula was real, then you and some friends start plotting to kill him and you say, 'lets talk about Dracula. This book says you have to drive a stake through his heart to kill him.'

And then all the while you believe that a fuckin stake is gonna kill him, when you also know that many others have driven stakes through his heart, yet you believe or claim it'll work then you try it because a fuckin story about him said it would work.

You're severely prone to believe any gobblygook you hear, your logic is attorciously FALLIBLE. 'For the sake of the argument' give me a break. :Sarcastic:

No, I'm not saying you really believe it'll kill him, the point I'm making is you're willing to acknowledge and abide by unintelligent and inaccurate logic and info. You're willing to let go of what makes sense, what is closer to truth or that is truth in order to hold to the claims made on a certain matter. It will make you a fool to use such inane and inaccurate assessments on many, many matters.

quote:From where do you make those assumptions?...

Already addressed.

quote:Therefore my argument was correct. If you're taking about the bible god or any omniscient being, then he by definition cannot learn.

Who in the bloody hay-ha said otherwise?!?!?! I don't recall making any statments declaring, stating, ascertaining, otherwise. I recall saying that 'the god of the bible' IS NOT omniscient. Simply because...He isn't.

quote:Read above. I really have no clue from where the hell you got that I believed that the claims made in the bible were correct.

I don't know either, could it be...wait. it just be because of the part where you say and have said many a time in the past, "When speakin on the bible god you have to take what the bible says AS TRUTH."

But I don't know, could that be it? That's 'where the hell I got it from'. Do you not recall incessantly proclaiming that? Or is it just my imagination and you've never said anything of the sort? Wouldn't that-No, doesn't that mean that you're taking it as...umm, say...TRUTH!!!!!!!!? I guess the old saying isn't true, well not in your case, "AMIATTTW!"

Now, onto the second part of the of your post:

quote:What I'm saying is, that if you're referring to the bible god in an argument then you obviously MUST TAKE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS OF GOD AS TRUE(you used all lowercases in 'god', it's 'God'-it's a freakin name), if not you wouldn't be talking about the bible god.

(You used all lowercases in 'god', it's 'God'-it's a freakin name! When you're talking about a person you MUST use a capital at the beggining of the name or you're not talking about that person.)

Edit:sorry left 't' out of '/quote'

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 07-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by prince charles:

Well I think god does suffer and he takes it out on us humans.

I think god needs some pussy,mabie he should rape another virgin.

2000 years is a long time.



You may actually be on to something. Everyone always curses me out when I say that God raped Mary, but I must be telling the truth because Christians(and other God followers) only get mad when you make them think.

quote:HEY RUST!

It's funny how you'd dare to come at me with such a lame, insignificant and false argument. When the fact is most of these people have said that God is fallible however, the bible says nothing of the sort. I believe even YOU have taken part in this 'argument' that God is fallible.

You've also said that God gives us no reason to belive that He exists yet you you bitch when someone says He's not omniscient. You bitch and you tell others that when speaking abou God we must take the bible as truth, al the while you're denying His existance.

If 'the bible god' has taken part in the making of the bible, how then could you claim that He gives us no reason to believe He exists. You're a hypocrit who's quite full of the shit that he thinks is intelligence, that he thinks is great logic and reasoning. B 4 real.

*I have edited this numerous times just to try to keep any more heated discussion to a minimum.*

It was my mistake to assume that you thought the bible god was omniscient. I based myself on the fact that the vast majority of people and religions, that base themselves on the bible, think that he is omniscient. Moreover, I'm confident that deptstoremook was speaking of an omnipotent and omniscient god.

But, you could very well argue that the bible itself proves that he isn't omniscient, therefore it was my mistake. But, in order to argue that the bible shows that the bible god is not omniscient you must offer proof. If you have in the past, could you point me to the thread? Or if you which to post it now...

I'll ignore the parts that deal with my assumption since I agreed it was my mistake. The rest are parts that you were/are misunderstanding what I meant and said:

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

You totally missed the point because you're whining about something that has to do with someones opinions(ME). No you didn't not say I could voice my opinion and that has nothing to do with what I said, so again YOU MISSED THE POINT.

How did I miss the point if all I did was share MY opinion? What you call me "whining about something that has to do with someones opinions" is ME sharing MINE.

Again, I did not say you couldn't share anything, so once again, how did I miss the point?

quote:It is your opinion that I "MUST" speak on God in a certain way which makes you a hypocrit and a habitual contradictor of yourself. In earlier times you've gone as far as to say that I "HAVE TO" do this or that thing when speakin of 'the god of the bible'.





Wrong. My opinion was and is, that if you're speaking about the bible god, then you must base your definition of the bible god on the what the bible offers.

Unless of course you show the bible saying that he isn't omniscient.

quote:NO I MUST NOT. I DO NOT have to say God is this or that because the bible says He is. SO THE FUCK WHAT. Before you go along telling people what they must and must not do, you need to get your information and facts straight, ok?





Once again you mis-understand what I'm saying.

I'm NOT saying that you must believe that every time you speak. I'm saying that if you are talking about the bible god, then you must take what the bible says about god as its definition.

quote:I don't know either, could it be...wait. it just be because of the part where you say and have said many a time in the past, "When speakin on the bible god you have to take what the bible says AS TRUTH."

But I don't know, could that be it? That's 'where the hell I got it from'. Do you not recall incessantly proclaiming that? Or is it just my imagination and you've never said anything of the sort? Wouldn't that-No, doesn't that mean that you're taking it as...umm, say...TRUTH!!!!!!!!? I guess the old saying isn't true, well not in your case, "AMIATTTW!"



There's a HUGE difference from me believing what the bible says is true outside of the argument, and me taking it as true for the sake of an argument.

I said, that for the sake of the argument, I was taking what the bible said about the bible god, as true. NOT that I really believed it. Therefore, what relevance does this have:

"The bible also says that God is a real being, does that make it true? Your logic suggests that you'll become the fool to everything you read." -- metalligod

How am I going to "become a fool to everything I read" if I DON'T take it as true outside of the argument?

quote:it's 'God'-it's a freakin name! When you're talking about a person you MUST use a capital at the beggining of the name or you're not talking about that person.)

"god" is not a proper name. Christians capitalize the letter "g" out of respect. I choose not to.

http://atheism.about.com/od/doesgodexist/a/capitalization.htm

http://writing2.richmond.edu/writing/wweb/capital.html

Moreover, this has absolutely no relevance to the thread. Even if you were correct, which you're not, you yourself have made numerous errors.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

It's funny how you'd dare to come at me with such a lame, insignificant and false argument. When the fact is most of these people have said that God is fallible however, the bible says nothing of the sort. I believe even YOU have taken part in this 'argument' that God is fallible.

I said it above, but just in case.

There's a difference between me accepting what the bible says as true for the sake of an argument and me actually believing it is true outside that argument.

I DO NOT believe the bible holds any truth, at least not of any paranormal, spiritual or supernatural issues. I'm a materialist.

quote:You've also said that God gives us no reason to belive that He exists yet you you bitch when someone says He's not omniscient. You bitch and you tell others that when speaking abou God we must take the bible as truth, al the while you're denying His existance.

Again, FOR THE SAKE OF AN ARGUMENT. If you're talking about the bible, then you can take what the bible says as true in that argument. Not necessarily outside, just in that argument.

quote:If 'the bible god' has taken part in the making of the bible, how then could you claim that He gives us no reason to believe He exists. You're a hypocrit who's quite full of the shit that he thinks is intelligence, that he thinks is great logic and reasoning. B 4 real.

See above.

---

All of this stems from your lack of reading skills and your lack of logic. Apparently, you don't know how to separate two different things:

Accepting something as true only for the sake of an argument and actually believing something is true.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

lol... gee, now i smell sarcasm

"well, they think i'm a dummy but i aint. i'm gonna get my truckers license one day"



it's your feet. jk http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

it's your feet. jk http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



it's true, i need a shower badly... the dog wont even lick my feet right now http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 07-27-2004).]

quote:Originally Posted By Rust:

It was my mistake to assume that you thought the bible god was omniscient. I based myself on the fact that the vast majority of people and religions...But, you could very well argue that the bible itself proves that he isn't omniscient, therefore it was my mistake. But, in order to argue that the bible shows that the bible god is not omniscient...

I'll ignore the parts that deal with my assumption since I agreed it was my mistake...

It is your mistake again, I DO NOT believe 'the bible god' is omniscient.(Nor the other long 'O' word) You just don't get it, this is truly hopeless. And how do you base yourself on what what other people believe of the bible? How does that make an iota of sense? The misunderstandings are do to your not reading what's written and writing partly unintelligible things.

Do understand that I don't mean to insult, it's simply Metalligod(oh shit, third person bull) saying what and how he feels the best way he can. And conveying truths, the the best way he can.

Now onto my 'burden of proof'. As you should already, very well know, the My God forums' pages have been purged many, many times and my thread is no longer in existnace. However, I can repost as much as I can remember, however I'll REPOST the thread. Doing so to avoid an over-lengthy post.

quote:How did I miss the point if all I did was share MY opinion? What you call me "whining about something that has to do with someones opinions" is ME sharing MINE.

Again, I did not say you couldn't share anything, so once again, how did I miss the point?

I don't knw how you missed it, but the fact is...you did. You're just like those wannabe clever early settlers of this country. They told people they would be free to practice whatever religion they choose as long as it's Christianity.

Sound familiar? It should, you say, 'yeah we're all here to voice our own opinions' yet and still you say that ppl MUST take something this way or that, but we're free to do and say wgat we please? Oh grow up, and open your eyes while you're at it.

One thing contradicts the other. You say it's your OPINION yet YOU are telling OTHERS to do something a certain way. It's one thing to have and voice an opinion it's a wholly different affair to tell other what and what not to do. It's a wholly different affair to impose your views on others. Yet and still...YOU MISSED THE POINT.

quote:Wrong. MY OPINION was and is, that IF YOU'RE speaking about the bible god, then YOU MUST baseYOUR definition of the bible god on the what the bible offers.

Unless of course you show the bible saying that he isn't omniscient.

Pitiful. Just Pitiful. You're truly hopeless and I've again grown bored of you. ^THIS is a prime example of my argument against you, it's proof of what I say that you do so often. And why in the fuckin hell would the bible say 'God is not omniscient' if the whole fuckin book is to be in His favor? I'd hate to be you.

quote:Once again you mis-understand what I'm saying.

I'm NOT saying that you must believe that every time you speak. I'm saying that if you are talking about the bible god, then you must take what the bible says about god as its definition.



No YOU misunderstand yourself and others. And I'll advise that you NOT 'put words in my mouth'. I never said that YOU said I, 'HAD TO BELIEVE' anything. Learn to read what I say more thoroughly before ascertaining such.

As for everything else said in the quoted above, I won't even dignify it with a response, it's just another case of you needing to read and assess what you've read more thoroughly.

quote:There's a HUGE difference from me believing what the bible says is true outside of the argument, and me taking it as true for the sake of an argument.

So what. Who said otherwise? Again, read more thoroughly.

quote:I said, that for the sake of the argument...Therefore, what relevance does this have:...

It has relevence to the argument I made against you. Had you properly read and assessed what you'd you'd know this already. Oh, and again...YOU MISSED THE POINT. Which was very, no, VERY concise.

And to further clear up any confusion, I do believe that I maid statements and instances that conveyed such a message. I solemnly believe and swear that I went as far as to say,

"If you were to take everything in the bible as truth then you'd be a pretty dumb motherfucka, even if it is for the the 'sake' of an argument on the matter. Because, again, the bible has stories that contradict each other."

And I believe I made refference to that fact that I KNEW you DID NOT believe what you said, when I explained the point of the 'Dracula Scenario'. That point was that in a discussion your logic fails because it's not logically accurate, nor litterally accurate to the scenarios you try to fix it to.



Because in your freakin arguments you'll believe WHATEVER is said about one thing, no matter how logically and/or morally, intellectually, historically,conceptually inaccurate it is. Therefore, you'll sound like a fool to say this or that is possible becauase the story says it is.

Even if the story itself later contradicts, shows error or blatantly disproves its prior claims. YOU'LL BE THE FOOL.

You choose to throw away all intelligence when assessing what you hear or read and that's quite palpable from the things you've construed from several of my as well as others' posts.

[quote]quote:"god" is not a proper name... Moreover, BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't know what I'm talking about, so blah blah blah.

First off, actually, YOU'RE WRONG. In several verses God Himself says that one of His many names is indeed God. Two, you, again, MISSED THE POINT. And you need to learn how to interpret what you read. It's obvious by the way it was worded that I was being sarcastic and cynical.

And you've made infinitely & exponentially far more errors than I've ever made in my life. So don't even begin to speak on that matter, I could hide a village or two of bodies under the rubble of your imperfections. Don't! Just, don't! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

It is your mistake again, I DO NOT believe 'the bible god' is omniscient.(Nor the other long 'O' word) You just don't get it, this is truly hopeless. And how do you base yourself on what what other people believe of the bible? How does that make an iota of sense? The misunderstandings are do to your not reading what's written and writing partly unintelligible things.

I already said it was my mistake, so I don't see any reason to say it's"hopeless", other than to further your childish tactics.

I based my assumption what the majority believed. That's the reasonable way to do it since, by definition, an assumption is uncertain and I would like it to have the highest percentage of success.

quote:I don't knw how you missed it, but the fact is...you did. You're just like those wannabe clever early settlers of this country. They told people they would be free to practice whatever religion they choose as long as it's Christianity.

Sound familiar? It should, you say, 'yeah we're all here to voice our own opinions' yet and still you say that ppl MUST take something this way or that, but we're free to do and say wgat we please? Oh grow up, and open your eyes while you're at it.

One thing contradicts the other. You say it's your OPINION yet YOU are telling OTHERS to do something a certain way. It's one thing to have and voice an opinion it's a wholly different affair to tell other what and what not to do. It's a wholly different affair to impose your views on others. Yet and still...YOU MISSED THE POINT.





The thing is you MUST do that.

You MUST base your definition of the bible god on the bible. If not, you would not be speaking of the bible god!

For example, if you're going to speak of Superman, then you must base yourself on what the Superman Comics say he is.

You cannot claim to be talking about Superman without X-Ray vision, because by the definition of the comic, Superman has X-Ray Vision. If you speak of he not having it, then you're not talking about Superman. Period.

Similarly, when speaking of the bible god you must base yourself on what the bible says of that god.

quote:Pitiful. Just Pitiful. You're truly hopeless and I've again grown bored of you. ^THIS is a prime example of my argument against you, it's proof of what I say that you do so often. And why in the fuckin hell would the bible say 'God is not omniscient' if the whole fuckin book is to be in His favor? I'd hate to be you.



Not only did you not refute the statement like a child, you apparently don't know how to read along the lines.

I didn't mean "God isn't omniscient" literally.

I meant that you must base your definition of the bible god on what the bible says. Whether it says he is omniscient or not.

quote:As for everything else said in the quoted above, I won't even dignify it with a response, it's just another case of you needing to read and assess what you've read more thoroughly.





Either refute them or shut up. Leave the childish tactics out of this argument.

quote:So what. Who said otherwise? Again, read more thoroughly

You said:

"If you were to take everything in the bible as truth then you'd be a pretty dumb motherfucka, even if it is for the the 'sake' of an argument on the matter. Because, again, the bible has stories that contradict each other."

Which is either you implying that I do take everything in the bible as true. Or the most stupidest, irrelevant, statement in the world. It has no room in this discussion since I do not believe what the bible says is true!

quote:Because in your freakin arguments you'll believe WHATEVER is said about one thing, no matter how logically and/or morally, intellectually, historically,conceptually inaccurate it is. Therefore, you'll sound like a fool to say this or that is possible becauase the story says it is.



"Because in your freakin arguments you'll believe"



Proof of you of you saying I believe those things, which I DON'T.

I, for a sake of the argument, take them as true. I don't believe them

quote: First off, actually, YOU'RE WRONG. In several verses God Himself says that one of His many names is indeed God. Two, you, again, MISSED THE POINT. And you need to learn how to interpret what you read. It's obvious by the way it was worded that I was being sarcastic and cynical.

1. Back up your that he says his name is "God"

2. The rules of capitalization leave the capitalization of "god" open. Like I said, I chose not to.

Hence I'm not incorrect.

quote:And you've made infinitely & exponentially far more errors than I've ever made in my life. So don't even begin to speak on that matter, I could hide a village or two of bodies under the rubble of your imperfections. Don't! Just, don't! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The point is I don't bring up grammar errors as you do. It's a childish tactic that I don't take a part on. You do.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-27-2004).]

Childish tactics seem to be your favorite, Rust...so stop pointing at the speck in his eye, when you clearly have a plank hanging out of YOURS.

You talking about childish tactics while at the same time bringing up a 3 day old thread that has nothing to do with you? Hilarious!

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You talking about childish tactics while at the same time bringing up a 3 day old thread that has nothing to do with you? Hilarious!

I read it...it now has to do with me. *smiles*

I don't think it's childish to point out your flawed approach to defending your beliefs.

You didn't point out anything. You just said I had a flawed way of pointing out my beliefs...

Could you please point out to me my "flawed approach to defending my beliefs"?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-30-2004).]

I believe I did with the analogy about the plank in your eye.

You complain and whine about what others do, when you yourself do the same thing.

Not to mention that you can't just have an objective conversation without making it personal. Shows your maturity level.

You also find it unecessary to give references or documentation for your beliefs. I have seen it happen only once or twice, and one of those posts happened to be a copy of information that Dark_Magneto had given you.

Grow up, that's all I ask.

Your grammar is the least of your problems !

Once again, you talking about "growing up" when you just dug a 3 day old thread to further a grudge? The epitome of stupidity!

Why don't you do yourself a favor and shut up? You have yet to show me what I have done wrong and all that comes out of your mouth is useless inane dribble.

You can add this to the list of threads you've de-railed with your childishness.

P.S. If you have a problem with my grammar then please forgive me, English is my second language.

P.S.S. You still didn't "point out" anything. Once again, you just said it...

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-31-2004).]

*laughs*

That's all I have to say.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Great. You chose the "shut the fuck up" option. Hopefully now you'll follow through.