has anyone ever had a near death expierence? I was thinking these prove the existenc eof a higher power beacuse they had this one person hooked up to a machine that monitors brain-waves and there want any activity but then they said they saw something. it just seems very interesting.

Yeah, those experiments seemed to show that

there's a part of the brain responsible for NDE's, OBE's, even alien abductions. And this

area could be stimulated to trigger these events. Does that make them "real"? If this spot creates the events, then I guess they aren't. But if it's only responsible for their perception, then, yeah, shit happens.

I suppose you'd need to know what else this area is associated with, how it's wired up. But I'm no brain surgeon.

NDE's are quite possibly just hallucinations of the dying brain. There is an endogenous chemical in the brain similar to DMT (a powerful halluciogen), that is released during the death process. I'll try to find the article I read this in.

It actually is DMT. DMT is produced by our bodies. I read about it in DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences by Rick Strassman, M.D. Excellent book; I highly recommend it.

so you could use it to trick urself into believing that ur outside your body?

... how can it prove the existance of a higher being and what for such existance should be proved?

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

so you could use it to trick urself into believing that ur outside your body?

Yes NV...DMT is actually the chemical that induces experiences that people often speak of ass 'talking to God'...it's essentially the 'God' chemical. What's odd about that, is people who have elevated levels of it tend to be theists, those with average levels tend to be agnostic, and those with low levels tend to be atheist. Weird, eh?

Oh, and the studies on it ARE rather limited, so I say what I do without heavy emphasis...it's just interesting to me.

When you eat an apple pie, you brain creates chemicals. These chemicals tell you what the pie tastes like, nerve impulses tell you how hot it is, dopamine, etc., lets you know if it makes you happy or not.

Now, the only way your body knows that it consumed that pie is the chemical response it creates. Does that mean that the apple pie is nothing but those chemicals and nerve impluses?

Just food for thought. HAH! A joke! Get it?

There is no evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that NDEs are caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain or anything like that. It's all very well to claim it's this chemical or it's a natural part of the brain, but if you make such a claim the burden of proof is yours - you can't make claims like that without providing evidence.

Some more food for thought http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) http://near-death.com/experiences/skeptic09.html http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html

Could be that the part of the brain or the chemicals involved are only responsible for the perception of these events, either real or artificially triggered by stimulation or drugs.

quote:Originally posted by Gnool:

There is no evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that NDEs are caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain or anything like that. It's all very well to claim it's this chemical or it's a natural part of the brain, but if you make such a claim the burden of proof is yours - you can't make claims like that without providing evidence.

Some more food for thought http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) http://near-death.com/experiences/skeptic09.html http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html

How do you explain the fact that not everyone who has come back from the brink of death has a NDE? If they actually were your soul leaving your body, wouldn't everyone have a NDE? Take me, for example. I took one of those research chemicals, DPT, actually, and I had a seizure, which stopped my breathing and heart. I was technically dead for three minutes. No NDE, no lifting out of my body. Just blackness. Death is but a dreamless sleep, IMO.

there was some hispital over in the uk that was doing a study on heart attack paitents that would supposedly prove/dis-prove the nds theory.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

How do you explain the fact that not everyone who has come back from the brink of death has a NDE?

There's been a bit of thought on this by people far more intelligent than I, if you were willing to research it.

But I've thought about it a bit, as well. Perhaps everyone DOES, but only few remember it? Akin to dreams?

Of course, for you to believe my theory, you'd have to know that the astral is reality, which I do from personal experience.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:



But I've thought about it a bit, as well. Perhaps everyone DOES, but only few remember it? Akin to dreams?



Possiblely, I mean, I was under heavy sedation at the time, but I would think that if a NDE was the real thing, it would be able to come though the downers the paramedics gave me. It truely is a mystery.

Yes, you'd think so. Another theory I've heard is this:

Consider a television, one only set up for broadcast signals. Now, this television exists, but it'll only play shows when it tunes into the frequency of the broadcast signals being sent through the air. If it's got the signal, the TV functions, and you can watch Queer Eye.

The television is your body, and the signal is your soul, your consciousness. Your brain is the tuner, the interface between your soul and your body.

This television is in the physical world, where nothing lasts forever. Eventually, it's gonna quit working. But, if the television stops playing, does that mean the show no longer exists?

The signal's still there, it's just got no physical equipment to convert it to something physical.

Just another interesting theory.

But why does no one come back with an Islamic vision, or whatever. You might explain away the Buddhists with Nirvana, but that would mean a lot of enlightened Buddhists. Most should still see some sort of heaven, hell, visions of people, something. It's always pseudo-Christian. The Hindus should have hundreds of different experiences, with all their gods. But no one comes back with tales of seeing Ganesh.

quote:Originally posted by Pow r T och:

But why does no one come back with an Islamic vision, or whatever.

The Islamic version itself would be rather 'pseudo-Christian,' considering the basis of Islam.

But just because you haven't heard of an Islamic NDE, doesn't mean there hasn't been one. Observe: http://www.near-death.com/muslim.html

Also, much of the material on near-death experiences and out-of-obody experiences in general has shown that your beliefs are integral on what you'll do immediately following death. The afterlife is infinite, and there are sections for each faith's own version of heaven.

Many Jews believe that, when they die, they will sleep until the Resurrection. So, that's just what they'll do. Athiests believe that there is nothing after death. For them, there may very well be nothing. They may go into a comatose state after death because they believe that to be what happens.

quote:You might explain away the Buddhists with Nirvana, but that would mean a lot of enlightened Buddhists. Most should still see some sort of heaven, hell, visions of people, something.

It's not that simple.

[quote] It's always pseudo-Christian.

No, it isn't.

[quote]quote: The Hindus should have hundreds of different experiences, with all their gods. But no one comes back with tales of seeing Ganesh.

You sure?

http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

Do some research, man. You're looking as ignorant as a militant creationist who still thinks the earth is 6,000 years old.

Take it easy. I was just asking a question. And the cases on that site leave a lot of room for interpretation. Which I guess is why they have the interpretation there for you. That's also why I said "pseudo-Christian". You can't prove anything with the data from these experiences, spiritually-speaking. It seems to have more to do with the hallucinations of a dying brain. I think I'm having one right now.

quote:Originally posted by Pow r T och:

Take it easy. I was just asking a question. And the cases on that site leave a lot of room for interpretation. Which I guess is why they have the interpretation there for you.

It's not so much their interpretation, as a re-telling of the account of the person who actually experienced it.

quote: You can't prove anything with the data from these experiences, spiritually-speaking.

Of course you can't. It's hardly empirical, but it's interesting nevertheless.

quote:It seems to have more to do with the hallucinations of a dying brain. I think I'm having one right now.

Could be. Then again, hallucinations themselves could be something more than just a product of the brain.

It's all philosophy, man. Just stuff that's interesting to ponder and theorize over.

I think what this research does prove is that we're hard-wired and predisposed to have these sorts of experiences, whether we do or not, whether we remember them or not. It says something about our nature or make up.

Very true. What remains a mystery is the source.

We are the source and the destination.

Nice, that one got me thinking.

On an unrelated note, I just read something that made absolute sense:

"self-awareness is the enemy of sincerity."

True, very true. NDEs and OBEs, with their similiarity to shamanic experiences and techniques, seem to point to a path not taken, abandoned in our quest for so-called civilization. There's a trade-off. The struggle to become fully conscious is replaced by the desire to serve one's own selfish ends and these types of things leave researchers scratching their heads, wondering what it all means. When we made a decision, a long time ago, to ignore that course and pursuit.