Sorry, Gyhth...I just HAD to !



1. You became an atheist when you were 10 years old, based on ideas of God that you learned in Sunday School. Your ideas about God haven't changed since.

2. When you use a historical point to prove Christianity is false (i.e., pagan parallel to Christianity), history is objective truth. When a Christian uses real historical scholarship to prove you false, history was written by subjective men and therefore cannot be trusted.



3. You believe that extra drippy ice-cream is a logical proof against the existence of God, because an omniscient God would know how to stop the ice-cream from being extra drippy, an omnipotent God would have the ability to stop the ice-cream from being extra drippy, and by golly, an omnibenevolent God wouldn't want your ice-cream to be extra drippy.

4. Although you've memorized a half a dozen proofs that He doesn't exist, you still think you're God's gift to the ignorant masses.

5. You believe the astronomical size of the universe somehow disproves God, as if God needed a tiny universe in order to exist.

6. You think questions like, "Can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it?" and, "Can God will Himself out of existence?" are perfect examples of how to disprove God's omnipotence and ultimately how to disprove God. When someone proves to you the false logic behind the questions (i.e. pitting God's omnipotence against itself), you desperately try to defend the questions, but then give up and go to a different Christian site to ask them.



7. You can claim with as straight face on sites like Talk Origins that "Evolution does not have moral consequences" despite the fact that prominent evolutionary advocates like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett vehemently assert that evolution does transcend biology in a way that has a profound effects upon ethics.

8. When a Christian points out the impossibility of a biological system (or feature) forming by pure chance you accuse them of invoking a "God of the gaps". YET, when you are asked how a particular feature could come about solely by chance you invoke "Evolution of the gaps" (i.e., we don't know HOW but we do know that Evolution MUST have done it!)



9. You claim Creationists don't research on evolution websites before debating against it. Luckily you caught this useful weapon against Christians at the evolution site you learned all about creation doctrine from.

10. You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives.

11. You reject what Cornelius Tacitus wrote about Jesus, dismissing it as "too late",but you readily accept what he wrote about Tiberius and Augustus.

12. You think that religious wars have killed more people than any other kind of war, even though the largest wars of the last 200 years (World War I and II, Civil War, etc.) had no discernable religious causes.

13. You adamantly refuse to recognise the historical fact that "scientific atheism" was both a foundational philosophical position and an actual policy of the Soviet Union from the time of Lenin on, responsible for untold persecution, torture, suffering, humiliation and death far in excess of the numbers of the "victims" of Christianity.

14. You think if a Christian won't address your arguments, they are too frightened to do so, or know they can't answer them; but if they do address your arguments, you think it is because they are "threatened" by them.

15. You assert that the crimes and failings of some Christians (acting inconsistently with the teachings of Christ at that!) disproves the whole edifice of Christianity but that the crimes and failings of some atheists (acting consistently with the fact that atheism can provide no basis for objective morality!) should on no account be held against the philosophy of atheism.

16. You get angry when Christians tell you you're going to a place that you don't think exists.

17. You're convinced that people only believe in God because they're afraid of going to hell...despite the fact that if there is no God, then there's probably no hell either.

18. You think Christians are narrow-minded for believing in only one religion, but atheists are open-minded for believing in absolutely none.

19. You feel that Christians who go into atheist chat rooms are "shoving their beliefs down people's throats", and that atheists who go into Christian chat rooms are only trying to educate.

20. You're convinced that all Christians are idiots. But when you meet the "rare" Christian who's clearly intelligent, you can only conclude that he was fooled into believing...by the idiots.



See the rest of these here (there's 198 of them, and they are hilarious):

http://www.tektonics.org/fundyath.html

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-28-2004).]

I think we can safely categorize fundamentalists of any viewpoint as 'idiotic dildos'...it works quite nicely and saves the pain of having to separate their beliefs into minor categories when they're all rather ignorant and narrow-minded.

Those are pretty good. I really liked the one about Christians, too.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

I think we can safely categorize fundamentalists of any viewpoint as 'idiotic dildos'...it works quite nicely and saves the pain of having to separate their beliefs into minor categories when they're all rather ignorant and narrow-minded.

Exactly, there are always the two extremes, fundamentalist theists and fundamentalist atheists, and I don't agree with either of them. But the list is a good laugh, Digital http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

You're right...extremists from either side are unattractive. It is amazing that they manage to pitch their 'sale' to others, and that they accept.

Thanks, Social...just wanted to lighten the load a bit. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I love this one...too funny !

You think you arrived at your position because you are a free-thinker who rationally weighed the evidence, and then freely chose atheism over theism. YET, you also believe that your thinking and actions are nothing more than the FIXED reactions of the atoms in your brain that are governed by the Laws of Chemistry and Physics.

lol, very entertaining. Though, why you saying sorry? I posted mine for the comical effect more then anything, not to offend anyone, and yours didn't offend me. You don't have to apologuise to me. Well done though :P

Wow... just... wow...

Digital_Savior, if you wrote that yourself...

just wow

I think that was actually BETTER then the Fundie Christian one. :P

And yeah, extremeists of either side are bad, but I have to admit, I havent seen an athiest as nasty as Fred Phelps... yet

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Wow... just... wow...

Digital_Savior, if you wrote that yourself...

just wow

I think that was actually BETTER then the Fundie Christian one. :P

And yeah, extremeists of either side are bad, but I have to admit, I havent seen an athiest as nasty as Fred Phelps... yet

*cough* Stalin *cough*

that is pretty pathetic.

"12. You think that religious wars have killed more people than any other kind of war, even though the largest wars of the last 200 years (World War I and II, Civil War, etc.) had no discernable religious causes."

no discernable causes?????? they woke up and decided to shoot each other? of course they had causes.

"10. You consistently deny the existence of God because you personally have never seen him but you reject out of hand personal testimony from theists who claim to have experienced God as a reality in their lives."

people say alot of things. i should belive something cause people tell me to? what about if two different people say different things about god???? who do i surrender my ability to reason to then????

"9. You claim Creationists don't research on evolution websites before debating against it. "

creationists don't know shit about evolution. they still think that radioactive dating is a myth perpetuated by the devil or some shit. since creationism defies the fossil record, and no creationist theory takes that into account, it is a pretty simple deduction to make that creationists ignore evolutionary evidence entirely, whatever the source.

"5. You believe the astronomical size of the universe somehow disproves God, as if God needed a tiny universe in order to exist."

you missed the point. the size of the universe has nothing to do with any god. i would love to know what reasoning that is used there.

"2. When you use a historical point to prove Christianity is false (i.e., pagan parallel to Christianity), history is objective truth. When a Christian uses real historical scholarship to prove you false, history was written by subjective men and therefore cannot be trusted."

historical scholarship? proof? there is a reason hearsay is not allowed in courts and cannot form a part of evidence. proof and hearsay do not go together. 'historical scholarship', no matter what the source, cannot be trusted on its own without material evidence.

"1. You became an atheist when you were 10 years old, based on ideas of God that you learned in Sunday School. Your ideas about God haven't changed since."

i don't get this one. sunday school has the wrong ideas about god? 10 years old is too young to make a decision? not changing your mind is bad?? wanna explain??



this is tripe. the few that make sense (the ones that i commented on) are just wrong. and 'fundamentalist' atheist, do you even know what fundamentalist means? atheist means not beliving in god. how can there be a fundamentalist option.

apperently your definition of fundamentalist is someone who actaully belives what they say.

"13. You adamantly refuse to recognise the historical fact that "scientific atheism" was both a foundational philosophical position and an actual policy of the Soviet Union from the time of Lenin on, responsible for untold persecution, torture, suffering, humiliation and death far in excess of the numbers of the "victims" of Christianity."

oh no!!! my belifes were used by a bunch of bad people! well, its obviously the fact that they were atheists! bad atheists! hitler used christianity. it was, hang on, both a foundational philosophical position and an actual policy. is this not meant to have a point?

"15. You assert that the crimes and failings of some Christians (acting inconsistently with the teachings of Christ at that!) disproves... blah blah blah"

you crazy christians and your definitions of evidence and proof. no one has ever said that a bad preist means christianity is a lie.

"16. You get angry when Christians tell you you're going to a place that you don't think exists."

like fuck i do! what makes a christian an expert on the afterlife? have they died?? do they have evidence?? all they have is a book, i have reason, logic and evidence. i know the exact same amount about the afterlife as they do, but i choose not to make up a fairy tale to go with it.

"17. You're convinced that people only believe in God because they're afraid of going to hell...despite the fact that if there is no God, then there's probably no hell either."

backwards logic. makes totally no sense. hell is used by the church to gain members. even theists will contest to that.

"18. You think Christians are narrow-minded for believing in only one religion, but atheists are open-minded for believing in absolutely none."

wow, those crazy backwards, closed minded atheists, not beliving something without a shred of evidence! its more close minded to belive in something DISPITE the evidence.

okay, i just saw that they are not written by you. if these are the top 20 or so then i would hate to see the rest. these are just plain stupid, with no insight, understanding or observation at all. some look like they were structured by a 7 year old.

hahaa that's funny

Awww...did I strike a chord ? It was meant for humor, and you are obviously taking it far too seriously. Once again, it is ok for Gyhth to post the top ten reasons why you could be a fundamentalist Christian, but the tables cannot be turned ? *laughs out loud*

As you so eloquently stated:

quote:that is pretty pathetic.

quote:no discernable causes?????? they woke up and decided to shoot each other? of course they had causes.

In your animosity towards the pretense of these quips, you have seemingly lost your ability to read, or at least comprehend what you are reading.

You chopped that up to suit your purposes, and it has only served to make you look like a fool, in my opinion.

The writer was stating that the wars mentioned had no discernable causes relating to RELIGION.

Read it again.

quote:people say alot of things. i should belive something cause people tell me to? what about if two different people say different things about god???? who do i surrender my ability to reason to then????

The point is not that you should just believe whatever you are told, but that it is ridiculous for you NOT to believe, simply because you have not personally experienced something that millions of others have. (you have never seen a billion dollars, but you know for sure that it exists. Why ?)

It's obtuse. Do you know what that means ?

Maybe you're not ready...maybe you'll never be ready. Maybe you should just try to open your heart and mind, so that you can experience what you so desperately seek: PROOF from God Himself that He exists.

He doesn't force anyone. You have to be open to it, so to criticize those that CAN achieve this open-heartedness, and HAVE experienced God, is folly.

quote:creationists don't know shit about evolution. they still think that radioactive dating is a myth perpetuated by the devil or some shit. since creationism defies the fossil record, and no creationist theory takes that into account, it is a pretty simple deduction to make that creationists ignore evolutionary evidence entirely, whatever the source.

You are CLEARLY supporting this valid point.

How ignorant are you that you really believe that ?

*laughs*

While this may be true for some (there are always posers out there), it is not the case for all. Please see my thread entitled 'Refuting the Evidence'.

Simply because a Christian studies evolution, and DOESN'T AGREE WITH IT, doesn't mean they haven't thoroughly been educated on the subject, nor that they are too stupid to understand it.

That's just ridiculous.

quote:you missed the point. the size of the universe has nothing to do with any god. i would love to know what reasoning that is used there.

I didn't miss any point at all. I didn't write it, I only agree with the statement.

The point is, God doesn't need any of His creation to be used as proof that He exists. He simply does.

HUMANS use his creation to prove it...that is the difference.

This is obviously reasoning that you cannot understand.

"2. When you use a historical point to prove Christianity is false (i.e., pagan parallel to Christianity), history is objective truth. When a Christian uses real historical scholarship to prove you false, history was written by subjective men and therefore cannot be trusted."

quote:historical scholarship? proof? there is a reason hearsay is not allowed in courts and cannot form a part of evidence. proof and hearsay do not go together. 'historical scholarship', no matter what the source, cannot be trusted on its own without material evidence.

This isn't even worth responding to.

"1. You became an atheist when you were 10 years old, based on ideas of God that you learned in Sunday School. Your ideas about God haven't changed since."

quote:i don't get this one. sunday school has the wrong ideas about god? 10 years old is too young to make a decision? not changing your mind is bad?? wanna explain??

Once again, you are missing the context.

This is basically saying that what we learn in Sunday school is often cartoonish, and slightly off mark. (in so many words)

A ten year old cannot be expected to accurately determine what God means, and how His omnipotence can affect human life.

Are you saying that an average ten year old is intellectually competent enough to understand the complexities of the universe ? That they are mature enough to make an educated decision about the destination of their soul ?

These are rhetorical questoins, so no need to answer them. I think the answers are obvious.

The author is also pointing out the fact that most people make up their minds at an early age about something, whether informed on the subject or not, and never try and seek out truth again.

quote:this is tripe. the few that make sense (the ones that i commented on) are just wrong. and 'fundamentalist' atheist, do you even know what fundamentalist means? atheist means not beliving in god. how can there be a fundamentalist option.

apperently your definition of fundamentalist is someone who actaully belives what they say.

Do you mean trite ? Tripe is the lining of a cow's stomach.

The use of the word 'Fundamentalist' is purely sarcastic in nature. A play on words, if you will...not meant to be taken in it's literal sense.

quote:oh no!!! my belifes were used by a bunch of bad people! well, its obviously the fact that they were atheists! bad atheists! hitler used christianity. it was, hang on, both a foundational philosophical position and an actual policy. is this not meant to have a point?

The very reason most atheists claim to disagree with Christians...again, I say, what is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.

And the "christians" that have persecuted in our history are Catholics.

Hitler was NOT a Christian. He used that as a premise to convince droves of people that his ideology was correct...and it worked.

The point is that atheists are hypocrites. There are bad apples in every bunch, not just in Christianity.

quote:you crazy christians and your definitions of evidence and proof. no one has ever said that a bad preist means christianity is a lie.

There you go generalizing and assuming again...have you ever known any real Christians, or are you basing your opinions on what you have seen on the liberal news stations, and in your Atheist Twelve Step Meetings ?

Priests are Catholic, not Christian. *sighs*

"16. You get angry when Christians tell you you're going to a place that you don't think exists."

quote:like fuck i do! what makes a christian an expert on the afterlife? have they died?? do they have evidence?? all they have is a book, i have reason, logic and evidence. i know the exact same amount about the afterlife as they do, but i choose not to make up a fairy tale to go with it.

You don't have any evidence of what happens to you after you die.

It is your opinion that the Bible is a fairy tale, which means that you haven't read it.

You seem pretty angry to me !

quote:backwards logic. makes totally no sense. hell is used by the church to gain members. even theists will contest to that.

Once again, only certain denominations, such as Catholicism, can accurately be accused of such things.

quote:wow, those crazy backwards, closed minded atheists, not beliving something without a shred of evidence! its more close minded to belive in something DISPITE the evidence.

You are assuming that your evidence, of which the majority consist of only theories (not facts), is correct.

To you, your evidence supports what you believe, not the other way around.

The evidence Christians have supports the truth. (everyone feels this way, even if they believe the sky is purple. They have some sort of evidence that makes this true for THEM, unless they are certifiably insane)

quote:okay, i just saw that they are not written by you. if these are the top 20 or so then i would hate to see the rest. these are just plain stupid, with no insight, understanding or observation at all. some look like they were structured by a 7 year old.

And you are behaving like one. *raises an eyebrow*

Are you going to throw sand at me now ?

quote:Priests are Catholic, not Christian. *sighs*

Clearly you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. What kind of Christian doesn't know that Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity? And the original one at that. The word "Christian" encompases all Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike. Dumbass

You said a lot of other dumb shit too, but fuck it. I'm too lazy

quote:Once again, only certain denominations, such as Catholicism, can accurately be accused of such things.

Just noticed this. So apparently you do know that Catholicism is a denomination. Perhpas you just have a limited understanding of what that means.

As far as I can tell, all Christian denominations other than Unitarian Universalism (which doesn't really count as Christian, as far as I'm concerned [they {we} don't have any fucking beliefs!]) have a place called "hell" that people go to when they're bad.

[This message has been edited by GlitterPunk112358 (edited 07-29-2004).]

quote:It is your opinion that the Bible is a fairy tale, which means that you haven't read it.

^I like it, it is such a narrow-minded reply. It excludes the possibility of considering the Bible to be a fairy tale after reading it.

quote:Originally posted by Sniper:

^I like it, it is such a narrow-minded reply. It excludes the possibility of considering the Bible to be a fairy tale after reading it.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Hahahaha http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

How much do you really know about the Bible?

http://ffrf.org/bquiz.html

quote:Originally posted by Sniper:

^I like it, it is such a narrow-minded reply. It excludes the possibility of considering the Bible to be a fairy tale after reading it.

Exactly...just as atheists accuse Christians of the same, after studying evolution.

The possibility that evolution is no more than a theory (and ultimately unprovable, because it is BS) is strictly rejected in atheist circles, for the most part.

"It is true, we just can't prove it yet."

Sound familiar ?

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

Just noticed this. So apparently you do know that Catholicism is a denomination. Perhpas you just have a limited understanding of what that means.

As far as I can tell, all Christian denominations other than Unitarian Universalism (which doesn't really count as Christian, as far as I'm concerned [they {we} don't have any fucking beliefs!]) have a place called "hell" that people go to when they're bad.

[This message has been edited by GlitterPunk112358 (edited 07-29-2004).]

You are in err, Glitter...just because someone, or a group of someone's, CLAIM to be Christian, does not mean that they are.

Anyone who worships (prayer is a form of worship) MARY is clearly not a Christian, because to be Christian is to follow the ways of Jesus Christ, and not once did he command that this be done.

There are so many reasons that Catholics should not be allowed to call themselves Christians, it is not measurable.

Just believing in Christ does not denote Christianity, either. It is not just a belief system, but structured behavior that personifies a Christian totally.

See where I am coming from on that thought process now ?

I am definitely not a dumbass, and apparently you have not been reading my posts for the past two months, or you would know that.

Jesus didn't command us to celebrate Christmas or Easter either and virtually every Christian denomination embraces those.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Exactly...just as atheists accuse Christians of the same, after studying evolution.

The possibility that evolution is no more than a theory (and ultimately unprovable, because it is BS) is strictly rejected in atheist circles, for the most part.

"It is true, we just can't prove it yet."

Sound familiar ?

We already showed you proof, in your own thread to be exact.

You not reading it is your problem not ours.

quote:Originally posted by Mike Dogg:

Jesus didn't command us to celebrate Christmas or Easter either and virtually every Christian denomination embraces those.

My family and I do not.

They have nothing to do with Christ, though most think they do. His birth, and death, don't even occur on the days humanity celebrate Easter and Christmas.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

We already showed you proof, in your own thread to be exact.

You not reading it is your problem not ours.

Rust, you didn't provide any proof, Dark_Magneto did (he offered science, in my opinion...not proof), and I haven't even begun to read that thread yet today.

Get off your high horse.

Well, to correct you, he provided it to me, and I provided it to you. Therefore WE provided it. A group effort if you will.

In any event, evidence was provided.

Digi, you can believe whatever you want to, but Catholics were pretty much the original Christians. They were definitely the group that all the popular Christian denominations (we're not talking about Gnostics. We're talking about Lutherans and such) came from. Why do you think all denominations except for Catholicism are called "Protestant"? Because they were going against the Catholic church, which was the only established Christian church at the time. Catholics are more Christian than anyone. They define Christianity. You can say that you don't like the Catholic Church, but you absolutely cannot say that they aren't what Christianity is about.

I haven't been reading your posts for the last two months. And even if I had, what would cause me to remember that it was you posting? Just how fucking special do you think you are?

You haven't addressed what I was saying about hell. The initial argument was that Catholics are the only ones who use "hell" as a way of getting people to join the Church. And because they're not even real Christians, it doesn't matter what they do. But they are real Christians, way more so than you are, so does your theory not go to shit?

Edit: To address what you said, prayer is only a form of worship in your mind. Others don't agree. Besides, it could be argued that Mary is an extention of Christ, and thus also of the Trinity. Not that I even need to argue that because prayer and worship are different.

[This message has been edited by GlitterPunk112358 (edited 07-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Exactly...just as atheists accuse Christians of the same, after studying evolution.

The possibility that evolution is no more than a theory (and ultimately unprovable, because it is BS) is strictly rejected in atheist circles, for the most part.

"It is true, we just can't prove it yet."

Sound familiar ?

So you are no better then them?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



There are so many reasons that Catholics should not be allowed to call themselves Christians, it is not measurable.





I smell a John Chick comic coming!

That's "Jack Chick".

And here's a cool parody archive (http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/) of his evil propaganda pamphlets.

First off, I have to say... this topic was (somewhat) intended as a parody..lighten up.

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

Digi, you can believe whatever you want to, but Catholics were pretty much the original Christians.

Actually, if i remember even close to right, the original Christians, were NOT even christians, but rather "followers of the Way" (i think they would use either a drawing of a fish or a circle with a dot in the middle to signify their belief) It wasnt until around the fourth century that the name Christian was coined by Constantine. But i might be wrong, my memory has been fading in and out lately.

But technically, Catholics are Christians, as they believe that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God. I agree with DigitalSavior that some of their teaching is wrong (worshiping Mary, Pope having more authority than God's Word, etc.) But they are Christians. However, i believe that ALL Christian denominations have SOME wrong understanding or teaching. No one has the exact truth (if you disagree, read the seven letters to the seven churches in Rev.)



quote:I haven't been reading your posts for the last two months. And even if I had, what would cause me to remember that it was you posting? Just how fucking special do you think you are?

I dont think she was saying this out of egotism.

Trust me, you would know. As there are a few others that you would recognise and remember.

There are alot of good minds in this forum, and i think despite which side of the coin they veiw, make some decent posts. Digital Savior is one in my book that i generally agree with. Some that i disagree with, make some equally strong points.

quote:

Edit: To address what you said, prayer is only a form of worship in your mind. Others don't agree. Besides, it could be argued that Mary is an extention of Christ, and thus also of the Trinity. Not that I even need to argue that because prayer and worship are different.

Prayer IS one form of worship. But there are other forms of worship. IMHO one of the best forms of worship is "like Father, like son" .. if He is our Father, we should (try) to be more like Him. Mary was human, Christ is divine.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

That's "Jack Chick".

And here's a cool parody archive (http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/) of his evil propaganda pamphlets.

That's got to be one of the funniest sites I've seen. Thanks.

Oh yeah, check this tract parody out as well (http://www.ibiblio.org/esrblog/) hosted on this guy's blog (scroll down to the comic).

The original creator took it off of his site because he was getting harassed by Chick publications threatening legal action (despite fair use). You can read about that whole sortid affair at the previous site I linked to. The guy got his shit hosted on foreign servers so they couldn't do anything about it.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 07-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Mike Dogg:

Jesus didn't command us to celebrate Christmas or Easter either and virtually every Christian denomination embraces those.

well do you celebratee easter or christmas... as you dont even belive in christ.. or indipendance day it dosent say anywhere to indipendace day any where yet hte amaricans do what about halloween does it say in thwe pagen scripts so go out trick or treeting... I know lets stopp anything that wasnt written down or even better lets not celebrate any thing...

[This message has been edited by madamwench (edited 07-30-2004).]

quote: 7. You can claim with as straight face on sites like Talk Origins that "Evolution does not have moral consequences" despite the fact that prominent evolutionary advocates like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett vehemently assert that evolution does transcend biology in a way that has a profound effects upon ethics.

Of course evolution transcends biology in a way that has a profound effect upon ethics. Dennett and Dawkins point out that the essence of biology (and the understanding of it's place in evolution) is from an engineering standpoint. The Design out of Chaos theory points to the engineering, not to the organism and it's humble beginnings. Realizing that there is no "skyhook" to support the "cranes" of evolution points to the fact that there is no necessity for a Master Designer.

I've learned alot from Christians and their morals, and consider them good company. How liberating it was to be able to take most of their fundamental teachings (on ethics, not creation) and apply them to life while still being able to take full responsibility for my morals.

quote:Originally posted by madamwench:

well do you celebratee easter or christmas... as you dont even belive in christ.. or indipendance day it dosent say anywhere to indipendace day any where yet hte amaricans do what about halloween does it say in thwe pagen scripts so go out trick or treeting... I know lets stopp anything that wasnt written down or even better lets not celebrate any thing...

[This message has been edited by madamwench (edited 07-30-2004).]



I only said that to point out the hypocrisy of many people who claim Catholics aren't "true" Christians because some of their practises aren't listed in the Bible. Of course neither are Christmas and Easter, but even most of the Catholic-deprecating fundamentalists still celebrate those. I am an atheist, but I still celebrate Christmas and Easter as holidays, even though I also know that they have pagan origins. There's no hypocrisy on my part here, but I can't speak for the religious folk.

quote:Originally posted by Mike Dogg:



I only said that to point out the hypocrisy of many people who claim Catholics aren't "true" Christians because some of their practises aren't listed in the Bible. Of course neither are Christmas and Easter, but even most of the Catholic-deprecating fundamentalists still celebrate those. I am an atheist, but I still celebrate Christmas and Easter as holidays, even though I also know that they have pagan origins. There's no hypocrisy on my part here, but I can't speak for the religious folk.

Let me tell you a little something about Catholics...

I have nothing against them personally, but abhor the fact that they have manipulated the word of God to suit their own selfish needs (i.e. pride and greed).

Let's start with the church head: The Pope.

God says in Exodus 20:3 "Thou shall have no gods before me."

1 Chronicles 16:25-26/Psalm 96:5

- "For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens." (The Catholic church is obsessed with graven images, and the reverence of The Pope. If ANYTHING is worshipped other than God, man or object, it is a sin. Here, he is clearly saying that all honor and glory belong to God, and God alone.)



Here are some examples of ways that the Pope has been likened to Christ (who would dare ?!)

Christ wore a crown of thorns. (Matthew 27:29) "Among (the pope's) insignia (is) .. the triple crown." (Externals of Catholic Church, Msgr. John O'Sullivan, p.9)

Christ said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36) The Pope is "Sovereign of the State of Vatican City" and "a temporal monarch." (Ibid., p.9)

Christ washed His disciples' feet, this manifesting a spirit of humility worthy of emulation by His followers. (John 13:5) For centuries, the Pope presented his foot to be kissed. (Catholic Dictionary of Theology, Volume III, p. 178)

Christ gave His Gospel free to all. (Matthew 8:10) The Pope authorizes stipends {a fixed sum of money} for Masses. (Priest Conway, The Question Box)

Christ said, "Call no man upon earth your father." (Matthew 23:9) "The Pope is usually mentioned as `Our Holy Father'". (Externals of Catholic Church, p.9)

Christ authorized the Holy Spirit as His Vicar on earth. (John 14:26) According the Catholic Alamanac, p. 145 "Christ chose St Peter to be .. his vicar on earth .. These powers were passed to his successors."

Christ is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18) }According to the Catholic Almanac} "St. Peter, .. the head of the church ... these prerogatives passed to his successors."

Christ claims infallibility for Himself and the Word of God alone. (Matthew 24:35) "The successor of Peter .. is infallible in matters of faith and morals." (Externals of Catholic Church, O'Sullivan, p.5)

Find the rest here: http://www.cephasministry.com/christ_and_the_pope_contrasted.html

In response to this, I quote Psalm 106:36: "They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them." and Isaiah 2:18: "...and the idols will totally disappear."

Isaiah 42:17 "But those who trust in idols, who say to images, 'You are our gods,' will be turned back in utter shame."

Psalm 40:4 "Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods."

The Pope carries a sceptor, wears flowing robes constructed of golden thread, and wears a head piece, which all signify the Catholic church's misconeption that he is some sort of deity. A modern day king, if you will. And he IS to be worshipped. This doesn't seem off kilter to anyone else ?

"Pope John Paul II -- always determined to make history not merely be carried along by it -- will issue a sweeping, unprecedented apology next Sunday for sins committed by the Catholic Church over the past 2,000 years." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/03/07/world/main168909.shtml (PURIFICATION OF MEMORY ??!!! "Please forget all the horrible atrocities committed by our most holy establishment." *laughs*)

The Pope is human, and makes mistakes. The church (any of them, not just Catholic) makes mistakes. God does not. Do you think the Pope deserves worship, over the likes of God ?

Crossing the Threshold of Deception http://www.cephasministry.com/catholic_1.html

Pope Kisses the Qu'ran http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.html (WHAT ?!! I thought the Pope was the Vicar of Christ, and therefor infallible...incapable of sin !)

Don't know how true this is (haven't verified the claims here), but it is worth a look, in my opinion: http://www.globalnetexec.com/renew2000.htm (I know I am going to catch 'hell' for this one, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest)

http://www.endtimeprophecy.net/~tttbbs/EPN-1/GroupPages/grupromn.html

Pagan symbology used by the Catholic Church:

http://www.cephasministry.com/catholic_upside_down_cross.html

http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/inverted.htm

http://www.acts1711.com/invertcross.htm

Twisted Cross http://www.cephasministry.com/world_pope_black_magick.html

Papal Symbols http://landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/pope.symbols.html

Papal Crucifix http://newadvent.catholiccompany.com/product_detail.cfm?ID=1942 (satanic, by definition)



It is not that Catholics practice behavior that is not predicated in the Bible. It is that they have created their own, outside of the will of God, and ordained them as HOLY.

It is that they demand their followers to worship HUMANS, who have clearly done nothing to deserve such worship.

Examples: Mary. Someone recently posted that Mary is an extension of Christ, and therefor part of the Trinity. Hmm...that is so farfetched and unsubstantiated I don't even know where to begin.

Mary was a human being, who was lucky enough to be chosen by God to be the vessel through which Christ came to this earth. That is the extent of her involvement.

At no time does God or Jesus designate her as an avenue through which prayer should be directed. At no point is it written that she is to be worshipped.

Besides all of this, a Trinity consists of THREE entities. Those slots have been filled by God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. No room for Mary there.

St. Nicholas. The Patron Saint of newlyweds, children, poor, sailors, and more.

"St. Nicholas was a Bishop of Myra in Lycia during the fourth century. Where he lived, Christians were often prosecuted and even tortured for their faith. As a child, he showed numerous signs of wanting to praise God. He spent a lot of time fasting and trying to be spiritually correct for God. He avoided anything that could cause him to sin.

His parents taught him to love God and people. When they died, he inherited their money. He often gave the money to the poor and hungry. St. Nicholas did this in secret. St. Nicholas heard about a local man that recently became poor and was planning to sell his daughters for prostitution. St. Nicholas went to the man's house that night and threw three bags of gold in through the window. These bags of gold became the three golden balls that represent a pawnshop. This also led to the tradition of the Christmas stockings. He would never brag about his good deeds.

When he spent all the money, he decided to become a monk. Shortly after being a monk, he realized he needed to be a priest. He studied the Law of God. St. Nicholas worked hard at being a village priest. Many loved him. After the Archbishop of Myra died, St. Nicholas was chosen to be the successor.

Since St. Nicholas was good to God, God worked miracles through him. He was able to calm storms, help children, and multiply food. People began to call him "a wonderworker" and were inspired to do good deeds as well.

St. Nicholas died on December 6, 343 AD. He was buried in his cathedral, but in 1087, his relics were moved to Italy. The Turks were harming anything Christian so they had to move them fast. They remain in a town called Bari. His relics have a fragrant substance called myrrh. Many people who are sick can anoint themselves with it and are healed." http://catholicism.about.com/cs/saints/p/stnicholas02.htm



So, he was a nice guy, that dedicated his life to God, and therefor he should be worshipped ? *clears throat*

His relics were moved to Italy ? What is the purpose of these relics ? To heal people ? When did Jesus use relics to heal the sick, feed the hungry, make the blind to see ? They mean nothing to God, and can be considered, in this context, to be idols attributed to this particular Saint.

The fact that the saints are worn on medallions ( http://www.discountcatholicstore.com/religious_medals.htm GRAVEN IMAGES) around the neck only further supports the fact that they are worshipped/idolized.

Please reference the scripture above in which God says that there will be no gods before HIM.

I think that is plenty for now. I am fully expecting an onslaught of vehement retorts for this post, but I stand firm in my belief that the Catholic church is the harlot that is referenced in the book of Revelation.

Can there be Christians in Catholicism ? Certainly. But it would be rare.

quote:Originally posted by Sniper:

So you are no better then them?

No, I am pointing out hypocrisy.

The actual belief system is a separate conversation entirely.

Digi, you could be right that Mary doesn't count as an extention of Christ, but that wasn't my main point. The main thing I was saying (and still am) is that praying to something is not the same as worship.

And the Catholic church is still the one that spawned all the other Christian denominations. So no matter what you say about their beliefs, you still have no right to say that they shouldn't call themselves Christian.

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

Digi, you could be right that Mary doesn't count as an extention of Christ, but that wasn't my main point. The main thing I was saying (and still am) is that praying to something is not the same as worship.

And the Catholic church is still the one that spawned all the other Christian denominations. So no matter what you say about their beliefs, you still have no right to say that they shouldn't call themselves Christian.

You are still wrong. Prayer is a form of worship, just as praise is. It is a form of reverence. To give such respect and adoration, to hold such a relationship with someone, or something, is worship. When you love something, you are in essence worshipping it.

Roman Catholicism was around before Christ, but Christianity was not.

Upon the death of Christ, Christianity was formed, and this was practiced by the original disciples. (minus Judas)

Catholics do not try to emulate Christ in any way, shape or form...so how does their religion constitute being Christian ?

As I said, it IS possible to be a Christian Catholic, but I do not agree that the two are synonymous. The reason for my opinion on that is the fact that in order to truly follow Christ, and model yourself after him, you have to defy most of the 'rules and regulations' set forth by the Catholic church.

It is like trying to walk in two different directions at the same time. You just can't do it.

Traditional Catholics seem more to me like modern-day Pharisees than they do Christians.

What about infant baptism ? Jesus is VERY specific about being baptized, and its purpose, yet the Catholic church completely ignores his and John the Baptist's teaching on the subject. They truly believe that this somehow 'saves' the child, when in fact that is not the case. Children are exempt from the choice between good and evil until a certain mental capacity has been reached (the age of this is different for every person, obviously). Water saves no one, and it is a ridiculous notion. Not to mention the fact that it is completely un-Biblical.

Anyway, end of tangent.

Glitter, are you a Catholic ? I'm not trying to offend you here, just pointing out the facts.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Glitter, are you a Catholic ? I'm not trying to offend you here, just pointing out the facts.

Nowhere close. Agnostic (but pretty much Atheist. I don't think I know anything, but I don't see any evidence pointing to the existance of a "god"), actually. I just feel strongly about people thinking that Catholics shouldn't be called Christians. Or saying that they're totally separate. I actually rather hate Catholics. Not that I hate all of them before meeting them, but their beliefs are so fucked up and they tend to be so fucking stupid that I can't usually carry on conversation with them. I do, however, have a couple Catholic friends. ...in the same way that they have gay friends.