Would you prefer nonexistance after death? or an extension of life via Heaven/Hell?

I'm beginning to question [again] that Heaven/Hell exists. Too many "plot holes", and a seemingly loving God appears to be cruel and horrible to me. You've all heard it before, so I don't need to recap. My question is, would you prefer to just not exist (no pain, no feeling, no thought, no boringness, no nothing), or to be conscious in Heaven.

I think nonexistance would be better. I find it hard to believe that (if Heaven existed) it would be any fun. Our nature is dispicable and violent...I doubt we could remain in our normal mental states and not eventually revert to hate/violence. I smell bullshit.

Nonexistance on the other hand is just...nonexistance. No problems, you're just gone. And once your body disentegrates, pieces of you will end up contributing to the environment. I can handle the idea of nothing once we die...it fits with ALL logic, and considering that once you're dead, you'd have no worries or thought process, it seems fine.

So...yeah.

word.

another option is only heaven. eh? eh?

or the jewish sheol.

heaven would be awesome, so I'd rather go to heaven. although in a way i would like to go into oblivion. Just to know that in a minute i won't be conscious.... that seems like it would be a really cool, sad feeling. Really sad.

Anyway, my choice is heaven.

Heaven w/ Karma

Earth IS hell my friend

karma isn't what you think it is. it isn't some point system. Your conception is false.

and how, in your thought of karma, would it work? those who gained more good points get better things? doesn't sound like a just god's heaven to me.

Karma goes with religions that believe in reincarnation. Specifically hindu, though I would bet some form of it appears in other [lesser known] religions.

Basically, if you are "bad" and gain bad karma, then you're reincarnated life will suck...possibly having you reborn as some type of rectal parasite. If you have good karma, you'll be reborn into a good/better life.

Thats a tough one. I mean forever is a long long time. I just don't see that going well with me. I figure after the first 2,000,000 years heaven would lose all its appeal (and I am thinking of a heaven that offers alittle more then praying or singing as activities). I just see myself turning into that guy in The Ultimate Guide to the Galaxey who goes around and insults every single person in ABC order.

Lets face it, there is only so much you could do before you just go insane. Forever never ends. Think about that, sit down and really think about that. I guess for me I would like a heaven, but with the option to become non-exsistent when you get sick of it.

quote:Originally posted by TheDragonContinues:

Karma goes with religions that believe in reincarnation. Specifically hindu, though I would bet some form of it appears in other [lesser known] religions.

Basically, if you are "bad" and gain bad karma, then you're reincarnated life will suck...possibly having you reborn as some type of rectal parasite. If you have good karma, you'll be reborn into a good/better life.

not really, that is the common thought. however anyone serious about eastern thought would tell you otherwise. it's more cause and effect. a good example would be eating meet. The Vedas and a few budhhist suttas say to not eat meat. so basically especially if you follow the bagavita then if you eat meat, you will reincarnate as a carnivore, a dog or wolf or something.

by definition heaven would always be heaven.

so it would always be awesome and you wouldn't get sick of it

TJTjay, it's funny you mentioned the "singing and praying thing". The way the Bible makes it seem, Heaven involves eternal praise of the Lord...not really things that humans get joy out of. I mean, Heaven for ME would be tons of girls to have promiscuous sex with, infinite supply of double stuf oreos, ICEEs, chocolate mousse cake, orange juice, tits, random cool shit, games, shit...everything. However, most of the things I (or anyone) likes relates to sin in some way...I don't see how that would work in the Christian idea of heaven.

Holy shit...in fact, it would suck if Heaven were actually eternally praising God. Imagine if it was just some grand scheme and people weer actually worshipping an insane tyrant. That would suck.

But none of ^that^ really matters. I'm basically starting to stop believing in that crap. I just have so many problems with it...

Sure, it's a bit depressing to think that essentially we are just machines, and everything we think of as "soul" is just part of our brain working. But when you get down to it, once you die, you die. It's not like you'll have shit to worry about, because you'll no longer be conscious.

I don't know...it's late and this is bordering on a rant.

Word. I've always wanted heaven to be that shit too. When i was younger, i just wanted mad video games and shit. Now I still want games, but i want girls and drugs too. Cause then there would be zero things to worry about doing drugs in heaven. Though I suppose that heaven should idealistically give you a feeling/experience exponentially better than any drug.

I just really wanna booze it up and smoke some ganj with Big J. Then we would talk, for a long time. Doing mushies with him would be great too. In Fact I'd rather trip with the dude, i've never had more meaningful convos with people than when shroomin or trippin.

An end to existence. this bullshit sucks hard enough already, so why continue?

Yeah, I would want a heaven kind of like the one Islam believes in. You know the one where when you get to the holy place there are like 60+ virgins waiting for you. That sounds alot better then a place where *Whippie* you get to praise the lord. I wonder if hell is really so bad. If the lord was dumb enough to think that humans wanted to forever praise him in there afterlife, then maybe Hell is filled with sex, drug, and all the other sins that are terrible.

Does anyone else get the notion that God is alittle conceited. What with him thinking that forever priasing him is a gift that he gives you, after you lead a life of whorshiping him. That sounds fun, waste both your life and afterlife whorshipping God. Once agian if its the Heaven talked about in The Chirstan Bible, then you can leave me out.

i don't think you'll always be like singing to God in heaven, i think you'll always be thankful to Him, but not always singing to Him or anything.

But yeah, hell probably is that bad. no sex or drugs.

Well, I don't believe in heaven or hell, or a soul, or anything like that. But a heaven to me would be where you got to do whatever you want. Anything else wouldn't be, well, heavenly.

Then, who says that Satan really would torture everyone? Maybe, while everyone was up in heaven being forced to sing God's praises, Satan would be having one massive, never-ending party, with girls and alcohol and great music, etc etc?

And yeah, I think that eternity would be too long. Bored after a million years? That's nothing, that's not even a percentage of what's to come. Think about four hundred billion years. Then, that's nothing too. Hmm...

Although the concept of ceasing to exists totally isn't something I like to think about. I mean, you can't imagine it, imagination requires thinking and death is the opposite of that, it's the death of the brain. I can't imagine not existing, what happens to you? Your memories, thoughts, emotions, personality? I don't believe in a soul, but it might be good if there was one. Oh, but then you would exist forever and get bored. I don't want to die... but if I didn't die, I would live forever and get bored. Shit.

Random rant over.

I think that there is a transformation of the spirit when you go to heaven, so that whatever it is, is complete sublimity to you.

satan will be tortured in hell too

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

satan will be tortured in hell too

Yeah, because God is all loving. Humans cannot even fathom his love. And this "all loving God" would send his "children" to a place of internal suffering because they didn't listen to him, and didn't spend there lives praising him. Because I know that if my child ever dis-owned me I would want him to suffer forever and ever in fires hotter then the 9th ring of Hell.

the fact is we deserve to go to hell and just because you can't fathom that doesn't make it unjust.

we deserve to go to hell, I deserve to go to hell. Grace is something you get when you don't deserve it. which is what God will give you if you believe in Him and try to obey Him..

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

the fact is we deserve to go to hell and just because you can't fathom that doesn't make it unjust.

we deserve to go to hell, I deserve to go to hell. Grace is something you get when you don't deserve it. which is what God will give you if you believe in Him and try to obey Him..



I don't deserve to go to hell. I am the least sinful person I know. The only rules of God that I break are Masterbaition, and Using his name in vain. And my god wouldn't send his children to Hell forever. He might send them there for a few hundred thousand years, but not forever. And if the real God feels differently about it then I would rather not spend my afterlife in his company. I think that if you lead a good life, hurt as little amount of people that is possible, and have faith in something simaler to God then you should go to heaven.

I cannot honestly sit here and listen to people who say that everyone that isn't part of there religon is going to hell. If that is so then some of the most deserving of Heaven wouldn't even make it in (Budist Monks). They [Monks] have lived the most pure lives, and if "your" God would still send them to Hell, then "my" God have mercy on yours.

quote:Would you prefer nonexistance after death? or an extension of life via Heaven/Hell?

I'm beginning to question [again] that Heaven/Hell exists. Too many "plot holes", and a seemingly loving God appears to be cruel and horrible to me. You've all heard it before, so I don't need to recap. My question is, would you prefer to just not exist (no pain, no feeling, no thought, no boringness, no nothing), or to be conscious in Heaven.

I think nonexistance would be better. I find it hard to believe that (if Heaven existed) it would be any fun. Our nature is dispicable and violent...I doubt we could remain in our normal mental states and not eventually revert to hate/violence. I smell bullshit.

Nonexistance on the other hand is just...nonexistance. No problems, you're just gone. And once your body disentegrates, pieces of you will end up contributing to the environment. I can handle the idea of nothing once we die...it fits with ALL logic, and considering that once you're dead, you'd have no worries or thought process, it seems fine.

So...yeah.



I would prefer Heaven. To be separated from my creator would be Hell, in any sense of the word.

Apparently, you do not understand the purpose of a JUST God, as opposed to a vengeful God. He does not need to "get back at us" (for those that will not turn from their wicked ways, and refuse to accept Him as sovereign). If He had this sort of mentality (which is very human), He would just wipe us all out now and get it over with (the Flood is a different story altogether, so please do not cross-reference). I don't know any kind of vengeance that is PATIENT !

Why would He want to wait thousands of years in order to punish those that do not seek Him ?

My problem with total non-existence is the lack of something to look forward to. If death meant simply "nothingness", then what is to stop me from living as though it didn't matter ? I could murder, and who would care ? I could steal, but that wouldn't have any consequences either.

Why would I try to live a life filled with humility, honor, and love ? These are the hardest of human qualities to achieve, and if there were no reason to accomplish them (other than for the gaining of acceptance, respect, and admiration from my fellow man), why would I ?

Acceptance, respect, and admiration mean nothing to me. Men are silly little creatures, and what they think of me means nothing. (yes, I am a silly little human, too...so my opinion of YOU should not matter, either)

If that is ALL we have to build on, then our lives are pretty empty and shallow.

There MUST be a point, as evidenced by the complexities of our nature, our existence, and our environment.

God cannot fit into the confines of human logic. That is impossible !

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-06-2004).]

quote:I don't deserve to go to hell. I am the least sinful person I know. The only rules of God that I break are Masterbaition, and Using his name in vain. And my god wouldn't send his children to Hell forever. He might send them there for a few hundred thousand years, but not forever. And if the real God feels differently about it then I would rather not spend my afterlife in his company. I think that if you lead a good life, hurt as little amount of people that is possible, and have faith in something simaler to God then you should go to heaven.

I cannot honestly sit here and listen to people who say that everyone that isn't part of there religon is going to hell. If that is so then some of the most deserving of Heaven wouldn't even make it in (Budist Monks). They [Monks] have lived the most pure lives, and if "your" God would still send them to Hell, then "my" God have mercy on yours.

Masturbation = lust. As you have said, that's a sin (not the masturbation itself).

You have never seen someone's '67 fastback, cherry red Ford Mustang, and thought, "Damn I'd like to have that !" ? Or what about your best friends hot mom, or your neighbors hot wife ? Have you never thought, "I'd hit that, if I could !" If you have done either of these, you have coveted.

Have you ever had a favorite t-shirt, or a favorite tv show ? If so, you have committed idolatry.

Have you ever taken a pen home from work, and never brought it back due to absent-mindedness ? If so, you have been a thief.

Have you ever eaten until you almost threw up ? If so, you have been gluttonous.

I doubt there are any on this planet that have not (at least) unwittingly, unintentionally sinned. It happens to you every day, whether you recognize it or not.

You are no more perfect than anyone else of the human species, so I think you need to seriously reconsider the way that you perceive God.

I don't see how a few thousand years of suffering and torture would be better than eternity. Tit-for-tat, if you ask me. Punishment is punishment, no matter how long in duration. It would be equally unfair, based on your point of view.

God says that our GOOD WORKS ARE AS FILTHY RAGS. That means: no matter how good you are (or think you are), and no matter how many good deeds you perform, they mean nothing in the eyes of God, because without Christ, you are still a vessel of sin, and cannot exist in His presence.

You think you could ever LIVE UP to the expectations of God ? It's impossible. And He knew that, which is why He sent Jesus to die (in atonement) for our sins. We are covered by the blood, and this makes us presentable before God.

If you choose not to be in the presence of your creator for eternity based on your limited human understanding of His will, then so be it. I think that is a pathetic scape goat for being accountable for yourself while still on this earth.

It is not about religion...if you don't accept Christ as your savior, and believe in God and His word, you are going to Hell. (I am not pointing a finger here. The word 'your' and 'you' are being used loosely to represent everyone...all readers) Doesn't matter if you are a Mormon, or a Baptist, or a Catholic, or a Lutheran. The rules are the same for everyone, no matter what title they give themselves, or what group they belong to.

Purity is relative to perception. What is pure to US is certainly not pure to God. He gives pretty simple guidelines for us to live by.

Buddhism is man-created (I'm gonna hear about this). To deny self is great, but it means nothing if not done through the will of God.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-06-2004).]

quote:Buddhism is man-created (I'm gonna hear about this).

So in your opinion, out of ALL the religions, only one - (Buddism) is created by man? You said you were going to hear about it, and by "god", I'm gonna have to say that...



...I couldn't agree with you more.

Yeah, I'll buy that. As a matter of fact, while we're at it, why don't we just say for the sake of argument, that ALL religions are man made. I mean, it really makes sense if you think about it:

First of all, let's put things in perspective. As a species, are we not, pretty much, the "masters of all we survey" here on earth? We have reached a stage in our development that some would argue could appropriately be deemed the "apex of our existence". We have progressed to a point, where just about every day brings amazing new developments in science, medicine, technology, etc. We stand triumphantly at the top of the food chain, masters of all we survey. Always thirsting for knowledge, we feel the need to study every minute detail of our surroundings, so in the name of "research", we collect and sample, we probe and explore, we capture and dissect..... often until there is no more. Being creatures of comfort, we have, over the years, succeeded in altering our environment to a point where we can multiply and divide our progeny at a rate that is beyond alarming. Today, our average lifespan is about 90 years, where as recently as 100 years ago it was around 27! We've done things that our forefathers would never, in their wildest dreams, even BEGIN to fathom. I mean hell, think about it. we've cracked the code of DNA for chrissake! We no longer need God... we ARE God.

...But wait...

Something's still not quite right.

Given all that we've done...

All that we know...

...and all that we are, there is still one thing that we cannot quite grasp. One little piece of the puzzle that we cannot solve...

...one minute detail that cannot be overlooked or ignored...and try as we may, we just can't seem to find the answer.

What happens to us after we die?

Well, depending on what flavor suits your fancy, just ask any: CatholicHinduChristianProtestantMormonJewishBhuddi stJehova'sWitnessMethodistMuslimMooneyMofo that you happen to meet, and I'm sure that they'll readily agree...

...Yeah, maybe we do need god...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Masturbation = lust. As you have said, that's a sin (not the masturbation itself).

Hmm... if masturbation is a result of lust, then it might be sin.

... what if it is not a result of lust..? Eh..?

Have you tried masturbating without actually envisioning someone (male or female, or both) naked ?

Do you masturbate to thoughts of palm trees, no humans involved ?

What about masturbating to absolutely NOTHING ?

It just doesn't seem to work very well.

So, to play out sexual fantasies in your mind is to enjoy the acts taking place. In essence, you are exhibiting the result of lustful thoughts, by masturbating.

The lust is a sin, as the Bible clearly states.

Where else could masturbation be the result of ? (and I am not talking about sickos that get off on seeing people murdered)

quote:Originally posted by TheDragonContinues:

TJTjay, it's funny you mentioned the "singing and praying thing". The way the Bible makes it seem, Heaven involves eternal praise of the Lord...not really things that humans get joy out of. I mean, Heaven for ME would be tons of girls to have promiscuous sex with, infinite supply of double stuf oreos, ICEEs, chocolate mousse cake, orange juice, tits, random cool shit, games, shit...everything. However, most of the things I (or anyone) likes relates to sin in some way...I don't see how that would work in the Christian idea of heaven.

Holy shit...in fact, it would suck if Heaven were actually eternally praising God. Imagine if it was just some grand scheme and people weer actually worshipping an insane tyrant. That would suck.

But none of ^that^ really matters. I'm basically starting to stop believing in that crap. I just have so many problems with it...

Sure, it's a bit depressing to think that essentially we are just machines, and everything we think of as "soul" is just part of our brain working. But when you get down to it, once you die, you die. It's not like you'll have shit to worry about, because you'll no longer be conscious.

I don't know...it's late and this is bordering on a rant.

You are making the mistake of assuming that our heavenly "bodies" (souls) are like our human "bodies" (physical).

What matters to our flesh here on earth will mean nothing once we are in Heaven/Hell.

I am sorry to say this, but the way you want Heaven to be is exactly the way most people want earth to be. Why would this be something to look forward to ? Anything in excess is bad for you (with the exception of God), and you'd get bored of screwing and eating and playing games all day.

We will not be sitting around singing praises to God all the time. If this were the case, then there would be no purpose to the building structures in Heaven.

building structures? If masturbation is a sin than what about sex? Is it a sin? But the lord told us to "be fruitful and multiply" so it cant be a sin?