This sorta belongs in humanities or politics, but since religion is at the heart of the issue, I put it here.

I simply can't believe that these fundementalists want abortions, even in cases of rape, to be banned.

These people make me sick. If they had it their way, they would probably pray over the rapist, "save" him, and boom, he's forgiven, all better, except for the victim who has to carry his baby for 9 months.

I do believe that if the person truely does repend, god will forgive him, but why does that mean that the woman must suffer?

If someone wants an abortion, or performs abortions, THEY are responsible for their actions, right or wrong. It is THEIR choise.

If indeed abortion is the same as murder, then they are responisble.

If you don't agree with abortion, don't get one, but leave others to make their own choise, for right or wrong.

well if it's the same as murder then why would anyone let anyone choose?

It's anyone's choice to murder, they don't get to choose.

Why should a baby die because the mom doesn't want to have to deal with being pregnant. That makes me sick.

This is going to get ugly.

It is not the choice I abhor, it is the murder of an innocent child.

God knows all things, and knowing that, we should accept that everything that happens has a purpose.

Life is filled with all kinds of suffering and pain, thanks to sin (and thanks to Lucifer), but does that give us full rights in the murder department ? No.

That child is STILL a child. Innocent, and unblemished. (we are all born into sin, but in this context I mean innocent of the knowledge of sin.

Why should they suffer the pain and agony of abortion ? It was not the mother's fault that it occured, and neither is it the child's.

Who is to say that this child does not have a significant purpose ? Each life is meant to happen, regardless of the circumstance.

And here I am going to get a little bit personal...bear with me here.

I was in a three year relationship with a boy about 4 years ago, whom I eventually decided was not the man for me.

I already had a child, and he had become a surrogate to her. They had bonded very deeply, and I was madly in love with him for a long time.

We were both in the Navy, and during one of his 6 month cruises (we get on the ship and sail around the world for 6 to 9 months at a time, for no good reason), our relationship began to deteriorate for many reasons that are irrelevant to this thread.

When he returned, we were both very hurt, and dangerously close to not making it.

We stayed together, though, and did our best to work things out...to no avail.

Unfortunately, after his return I became pregnant with his daughter.

Something happens to me when I become pregnant...a sort of "clarity" comes over me, and I able to make better decisions for the happiness of myself and my family.

The things that he had done to me while he was gone finally brought me to the decision that our relationship was unhealthy, and that it had to be ended.

When I broke it off with him, he decided that he had been hurt so badly by this, that he didn't want anything to do with my daughter, or his.

He walked.

I spent the majority of my pregnancy agonizing over what I would do financially. I wasn't able to afford the life I had, let alone the life to come with a second child in it. (the Navy doesn't pay beans, and doesn't care if you are not able to survive. It isn't their problem, no matter WHAT the commercials say !)

During my 8th month, I came to the most painful decision of my entire life. I was going to place my daughter, Alora Eve, up for adoption.

It was a heart-wrenching ordeal.

When she was born, I told the nursing staff that I didn't want to see her. I felt that it would be too difficult. I had already chosen her parents, and asked that she be given directly to them.

20 minutes later, I changed my mind. That was MY little girl, and it was my right to bond with her, even if I couldn't keep her.

They brought her to me, and I holed myself up in my room with her for 5 days.

I caressed her skin, sang to her, cried over her, and slept with her. I memorized her every sound, every aspect of her physical likeness, her smell.

I begged God to get me through it all, and was finally able to let the adoptive parents in to take her home.

I died that day.

You cannot imagine what that kind of loss does to a person's psyche.

It took me two years to recover to the point that I could trust myself in another relationship. (It still hurts, but I can function now)

The point to my story is that I had the option of getting an abortion, because I knew what the outcome would be. I knew I could not keep her...I simply couldn't afford it. I wanted her to have a GOOD life, not just a mediocre life.

I could have avoided the pain and heartache of losing someone that close to me. I could have chosen the easier route.

But I didn't...why ? Because that is DAMN SELFISH !!!

It wasn't her fault that she had a piece-of-crap sperm-donor of a father that was too irresponsible and selfish to love her above himself.

And it wouldn't have been right to rob her of her life, simply because I didn't want to feel the pain of losing her, or didn't like the manner in which she had been conceived.

I have given two people that were unable to have children the gift of life.

I have given precious Alora her God-given right to exist.

I believe she was brought to me for a reason...she has a purpose, just as we all do. Just as every new baby does.

So, from a personal level, I believe abortion is wrong. Period.

From a Christian perspective, I believe abortion is wrong. Murder is murder. Please do not give me the spiel that a zygote is not a human, because it is beyond our intellectual capacity to determine at what point a human is designated their soul. Only God knows that, and I personally believe it is at the exact moment of fertilization.

I have to go home now...but please feel free to condemn me for believing that killing babies is horrific, and will be rewarded accordingly.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-11-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

This is going to get ugly.

Yes...it is. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

I have no definite position on abortion, mostly because this issue has never had an impact on my life as of yet, and I'm a man, and don't feel like I have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.

But I am for keeping abortion legal. With abortion, as with illegal drugs, for example, you could argue whether it is right or wrong until the end of the universe, but the fact remains, there will always be a demand for it. So it is better to have it legal to reduce the risks of the procedure, because do we really want to go back to the time when women had to get abortions from discharged army medics without proper medical equipment and services?

Also, is it wrong to abort a fetus if it will save the mother's life (in a medical situation)?

[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 08-11-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It is not the choice I abhor, it is the murder of an innocent child.

Semantics.

I enjoy the murder of an innocent child.

MORE FETUSCIDE, I SAY!!!

One could just as easily say "it's not you choosing to shoot up heroin I abhor, it's the heroin." It's still being a junkie that you don't like.

quote:God knows all things, and knowing that, we should accept that everything that happens has a purpose.

So, if I go and punch you in the twat, you'll accept it and go on about your merry way?

It did have a purpose, after all. To demonstrate that you are not bound by fate. Fate exists, but in a different way that you are portraying it.

quote:Life is filled with all kinds of suffering and pain, thanks to sin (and thanks to Lucifer), but does that give us full rights in the murder department ? No.

Hell yes, it does. I have full right to murder a child molester or a rapist, and don't you dare tell me I don't.

quote:That child is STILL a child. Innocent, and unblemished. (we are all born into sin, but in this context I mean innocent of the knowledge of sin.

Good. All the more reason to kill him, so he can get into heaven easier.

quote:Why should they suffer the pain and agony of abortion ? It was not the mother's fault that it occured, and neither is it the child's.

Oh, bullshit. The majority of aboritons occur before there's even a fucking brain.

quote:Who is to say that this child does not have a significant purpose ? Each life is meant to happen, regardless of the circumstance.

You're right. It DOES have a specific purpose.

To die. To be aborted.

If it had some othe rpurpose, then God would find a way, and it wouldn't be aborted.

"God's Plan" doesn't always work to your benefit.

quote:And here I am going to get a little bit personal...bear with me here.

I was in a three year relationship with a boy about 4 years ago, whom I eventually decided was not the man for me.

I already had a child, and he had become a surrogate to her. They had bonded very deeply, and I was madly in love with him for a long time.

We were both in the Navy, and during one of his 6 month cruises (we get on the ship and sail around the world for 6 to 9 months at a time, for no good reason), our relationship began to deteriorate for many reasons that are irrelevant to this thread.

When he returned, we were both very hurt, and dangerously close to not making it.

We stayed together, though, and did our best to work things out...to no avail.

Unfortunately, after his return I became pregnant with his daughter.

Something happens to me when I become pregnant...a sort of "clarity" comes over me, and I able to make better decisions for the happiness of myself and my family.

The things that he had done to me while he was gone finally brought me to the decision that our relationship was unhealthy, and that it had to be ended.

When I broke it off with him, he decided that he had been hurt so badly by this, that he didn't want anything to do with my daughter, or his.

He walked.

I spent the majority of my pregnancy agonizing over what I would do financially. I wasn't able to afford the life I had, let alone the life to come with a second child in it. (the Navy doesn't pay beans, and doesn't care if you are not able to survive. It isn't their problem, no matter WHAT the commercials say !)

During my 8th month, I came to the most painful decision of my entire life. I was going to place my daughter, Alora Eve, up for adoption.

It was a heart-wrenching ordeal.

When she was born, I told the nursing staff that I didn't want to see her. I felt that it would be too difficult. I had already chosen her parents, and asked that she be given directly to them.

20 minutes later, I changed my mind. That was MY little girl, and it was my right to bond with her, even if I couldn't keep her.

They brought her to me, and I holed myself up in my room with her for 5 days.

I caressed her skin, sang to her, cried over her, and slept with her. I memorized her every sound, every aspect of her physical likeness, her smell.

I begged God to get me through it all, and was finally able to let the adoptive parents in to take her home.

I died that day.

You cannot imagine what that kind of loss does to a person's psyche.

It took me two years to recover to the point that I could trust myself in another relationship. (It still hurts, but I can function now)

The point to my story is that I had the option of getting an abortion, because I knew what the outcome would be. I knew I could not keep her...I simply couldn't afford it. I wanted her to have a GOOD life, not just a mediocre life.

I could have avoided the pain and heartache of losing someone that close to me. I could have chosen the easier route.

But I didn't...why ? Because that is DAMN SELFISH !!!

No. Because you are DAMN STUPID.

Watch God's Plan come back to bite you in the ass and have the parents be pedophile dominatrixes or something.

Then you'll wish you'd killed her before she had a spinal cord.

quote:It wasn't her fault that she had a piece-of-crap sperm-donor of a father that was too irresponsible and selfish to love her above himself.

And it wouldn't have been right to rob her of her life, simply because I didn't want to feel the pain of losing her, or didn't like the manner in which she had been conceived.

I have given two people that were unable to have children the gift of life.

I have given precious Alora her God-given right to exist.

I believe she was brought to me for a reason...she has a purpose, just as we all do. Just as every new baby does.

So, from a personal level, I believe abortion is wrong. Period.

I admire that you decided to put it up for adoption. At the same time, I think you're a moron. You should have just had the abortion and spared yourself the trouble.

quote:From a Christian perspective, I believe abortion is wrong. Murder is murder.

If a man rapes my pre-teen son, am I wrong in murdering him?

God seemed to have no problem doing his own "late-term abortions," when murdering all the first-born of Egypt.

The Christian perspective is a load of shit. Christ was a moron. You'll forget all about turning the other cheek the second you have to actually do it.

quote:Please do not give me the spiel that a zygote is not a human, because it is beyond our intellectual capacity to determine at what point a human is designated their soul. Only God knows that, and I personally believe it is at the exact moment of fertilization.

Blah, blah, blah.

This is true, we do not know when the soul enters the body. However, we do know when the soul can begin to take control of the body, and that's not until it's got a brain. That's a least a few weeks into the pregnancy.

quote:I have to go home now...but please feel free to condemn me for believing that killing babies is horrific, and will be rewarded accordingly.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-11-2004).]

Very well. I condemn you. I herald Fetuscide for the life-saver it really is. I do not believe in forcing an already existing person to go through something they do not wish to go through for a non-existing person.

Same reason I'm against forced conversions, by the by.

[This message has been edited by The_Rabbi (edited 08-11-2004).]

Other than a rape scenario, I can't imagine why anyone would pick abortion over adoption. There again, I'm not a breeder, so the point is moot. Politically, I'm torn. I strongly oppose the Gov't placing mandates on such personal decisions, but it sickens me how some young women use the abortion outlet as a quick-fix just because they're too fucking lazy to use birth control and are too selfish to make a huge lifestyle change like parenting would surely bring.

Abortion should be rare but legal. Abortion should not be used defacto birth control. What really sickens me are all these fundamentalist retards that protest at abortion clinics, yet at the same time bitterly oppose sex education and accessible birth control.Abstinence is the only answer for them, and since that is their will, so will it be for you. Some of these douche bags even go so far as to ban abortion when the mother's life is in danger.I would like to know what commandment that is.

Abortion is not a murder.

A murder is killing a separate organism, a fetus is not a separate organism, it is a part of the mother's organism.

It is not killing, but preventing the birth. Not taking away life, but not giving it.

It seems like this is the only issue arround where I agree with kikey. There are too many people in the world. Im about as far right as you can go and I still am pro-choice.

But if it was a rape baby it should be manditory that it be aborted. We dont need that kind of dna in the gene pool. But its their own choice and thats how it should be.

The closest thing that the bible says that is aginst abortion is "your body is a temple" wich means dont use drugs or something.

This is going to be a flame war, but its their own choice. If the certan indaviduals would just use protection we wouldent have this problem in the first place.

My opinion in short, I really disdain this debate for I have had it in depth multiple times (I go to a catholic school).]

Abortion should be legal only in cases of rape, incest, or when the mother is in danger.

Abortion should never be government funded.

Sex education, a steady source of birth control, and condoms should all be readily available. I'm sorry, but in our culture abstinence is not possible for the masses.

some problems: women will lie about getting raped, women who cannot afford it or who are not eligible for it will go ahead with much more dangerous methods. Some would even go so far as to getting hit in the stomach to abort the baby, take drugs or drink the baby dead, go through with dirty illegal back alley abortions. (All already happen for women who can't afford it).

A huge issue is, when do you think life begins? I don't care about things like, "Oh well the heart starts beating at such and such time". It is up to the individual to decide when they believe life begins.

I'm done, and will not participate further in this debate, other than to make an obnoxious comment.

quote:Originally posted by Sniper:

Abortion is not a murder.

A murder is killing a separate organism, a fetus is not a separate organism, it is a part of the mother's organism.

It is not killing, but preventing the birth. Not taking away life, but not giving it.

So what if it's the same organism. It's going to be a person, therefore a killing fetus is a much different thing than chopping off a finger.

Abortion is knowingly messing with someones right to life. Before or after birth. If you prevent the birth of a child, you are killing the child.

their body their choice

it's not "their" body. It's someone else's life.

Where di Christians get the idea that a fetus is a person? I think that under Jewish law to be a person a baby must breath on its own. What did Jesus do to change this view. If it was not Jesus then there is probly a politicle reason for this oposition.

i don't think abortion was ever ok. I a major theme running through the Bible is that we should protect the helpless.

A fetus is going to be a baby. It's going to be a baby. I don't see why the baby taking a breath has anything to do with it not being murder. I wouldn't kill the fetus a minute before it's born or a minute after it's concieved.

If it's not a life, (which it is,) it is going to be, which is enough.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

i don't think abortion was ever ok. I a major theme running through the Bible is that we should protect the helpless.

A fetus is going to be a baby. It's going to be a baby. I don't see why the baby taking a breath has anything to do with it not being murder. I wouldn't kill the fetus a minute before it's born or a minute after it's concieved.

If it's not a life, (which it is,) it is going to be, which is enough.



stfu with murder.

Okay, abortion. Where do I begin?

1. If it's murder, then it's murder. No exceptions. The only time it's okay to murder someone is if that person is threatening your life. So you should then only be allowed to kill a baby if it threatens your life. Not if you simply don't want it. If a man breaks into your house and eats your food and generally makes a mess of your life, then it sucks to be you (we're pretending cops don't exist), but you don't have the right to kill this man, especially if he's only there for 9 months

2. If you think it's murder, then it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. I'm tired of men saying "well, I'm not a woman, so it's not my call". Bullshit! If it's wrong, it's wrong

3. A baby is not a punishment. I hate people constantly saying "Well, you got yourself into this mess by having sex, so you deserve to have to go through with it". That's retarded. Bringing life into this world is not a punishment for those who have sex. It's a gift for those who want it.

4. Numbers 1 and 2 are irrelevant because I don't think it's murder. I think it's what has to be done sometimes and it's not like a baby is really much of a something yet anyway. It has no thoughts or personality. It's like putting your dog to sleep, but if you just got the dog that day and don't know anything about it.

Edit:

5. If you get into why abortion is wrong, you have to consider when it becomes a human. Is it a human right when the egg is fertilized? But what about a sperm (I guess that's the singular form) that will meet up with an egg. The baby won't happen if you kill that sperm. So is that murder?

[This message has been edited by GlitterPunk112358 (edited 08-11-2004).]

Proverbs 16:25 says: There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is the way of death.



"Rape is an act of violent assault against an innocent woman.

Abortion is an act of violent assault against an innocent child.

Why is one life protected, while another is not ?

The humanity of an unborn child happens irrespective of the circumstance under which it is conceived." http://www.abortionno.org/ (Please click the 'Abortion' link under the 'AbortionNO header at the top right hand side of the screen)

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/inProgress.html

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

I don't believe the small amount of women that actually choose to have this procedure done because of rape is justification for keeping it legal for the other 93% that are too irresponsible to use contraceptives. (yes, I understand that there are those that cannot access contraceptives, but I am sure that number is very low, and in those cases, WHERE ARE THE PARENTS ?)

In regards to the women that have the procedure done due to health risks, as I have said, there is a purpose for everything. If, in my death, I could bring into this world a child, then I would do it without a second thought. Why ? If that is the way it was meant to be, then I trust that the Lord knows what is best.

Jeremiah 29:11 - "11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

I do not think of it in terms of my perishing, because what awaits me in Heaven sparks no fear in me of death.

No, I do not believe that condoms and the like should be kept from teenagers. (though I do believe that this promotes pre-marital sex, which I disagree with) Yes, I believe sex education should be taught in public schools RESPONSIBLY. Yes, I believe in abstinence, but in today's society, it is almost impossible to hope for such a thing.

Personally, if the scenario presents itself that my daughter finds herself pregnant with an unwanted child, it won't be because I did not educate her thoroughly, or prevent her from accessing protection, though pre-marital sex is (and always will be) staunchly opposed in my household. She will have made her choice, and I will stand by her, to ensure that she does not get an abortion. NO CHILD SHOULD BE UNWANTED !



ABORTIONS ARE DANGEROUS

When a woman is given RU-486 (also called Mifepristone), it kills her baby by interfering with progesterone, the hormone which keeps the baby implanted in the wall of the mother’s uterus. Two days later, the woman returns to the clinic to receive a prostaglandin drug which induces labor and expels the dead embryo (RU-486 is used until 7 weeks after the first day of her last menstrual period). If the baby hasn’t been expelled by the time the woman makes her third visit to the doctor, she will require a surgical abortion procedure (5-8% likelihood). Raymond, Klein & Dumble, the pro-abortion authors of RU486 Misconceptions, Myths and Morals, (IWT Pub, 1991) stress that RU-486 is not safe for women and list the following contraindications (reasons a person should not take RU-486): under age 18 or over 35; menstrual irregularities; history of fibroids, abnormal menstrual bleeding or endometriosis cervical incompetence, previous abortion, or abnormal pregnancies; pelvic inflammatory disease; recent use of IUD or the pill 3 months.

Two drugs that were developed for cancer (methotrexate) and ulcer (misoprostol) treatment are now being used in combination to kill babies. Methotrexate is used to poison the baby and then Misoprostol empties the uterus of the baby. Keep in mind that Methotrexate is a chemotherapy drug with the potential for serious toxicity, which can result in the death of the mother as well as the baby. (Methotrexate & Misoprostol to Terminate Early Pregnancy, R. Hausknecht, New England Journal of Medicine, Vol.333, No. 9, 8/31/95, Pg. 537 and “Methotrexate & Misoprostol,” M. Creinin et al., JAMA, Oct. 19, 1994 and Physicians Desk Reference.

Abortion is not just the murder of a child...it is also unsafe for women as well (and not just with the drugs listed above.)

http://www.geocities.com/abortion_no2004 (Meet my daughter Alora)

The Persistent Myth - http://www.priestsforlife.org/columns/columns2001/01-05-21persistentmyth.htm

Not human, eh ? http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/index.htm

Saline Abortions - http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/dc/index.htm

http://www.abortiontv.com/silentscream.htm (this seems a little bit dramatized, but this is a real abortion)

Abortion Cures Rape - http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/curerape.htm

Psychological Effects on Women - http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/pas1.htm

A Survey of Aborted Women - http://www.pregnantpause.org/aborted/reardon.htm

While I understand that the websites with photos are extremely disturbing, it is important to "see" what is actually taking place.

I apologize if I have offended anyone with these images, but they are vital to the scope of this conversation.

This is an atrocity, and should not be allowed to continue, all religious beliefs aside.

I would also like to apologize for any grammatical errors (if any), because it is now 12:30 am here in Arizona, and I am too exhausted to edit.

For all you anti-abortionites out there,

If a woman has a tubal pregnancy, should her and the fertilized egg just be left to die due to circumstance?

There's 2 choices with a tubal pregnancy.

1. Abort and the mother lives

2. Both die.

I'm quite sure that abortions would be a lot less common if young people had decent sex education. This abstinance only crap is useless. Perhaps it might have worked years ago, but in recent times, the age of puberty has been going down, and the age of marraige going up, while in say, Victorian times, they were rather close.

I do not think that abortion is right in most cases, but I realize that others hold different beliefs to I, and if they kill an unborn child, and it turns out that that is in fact murder, then they will be judged accordingly won't they?



That reminds me, God doesn't seem to think that an unborn child is as important as the woman.

Exodus 21:22-25

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Oh, sure, its bad, but it certainly ISN'T MURDER. Its a fine, its a potential Son to work in the fields, or daughter to... do whatever, but it isn't a full person.

A friend of mine had a Cousin who was raped at 14 years old, she became pregnant.

It wasn't an easy desicion for her to have an abortion, but it was truely the only fair thing.

1. She could have easily died, way too young.

2. Being pregant in the later months, recovering from birth, and caring for a child, would have totally FUCKED her education, she would have ended up going nowhere - there arn't any programs in this area for teen mothers.

3. Her parents would have been burderned with another family member, and assuming they are middle income, thats a big fuckup.

Now, tell me, how is it fair to her that she could have died (possibly killing the baby as well anyway), and would have had her life more or less ruined, set back for years, and been more or less socially isolated, because of some FUCKER who refused to control his urges!

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I was in a three year relationship with a boy about 4 years ago, whom I eventually decided was not the man for me.

I already had a child, and he had become a surrogate to her. They had bonded very deeply, and I was madly in love with him for a long time.

We were both in the Navy, and during one of his 6 month cruises (we get on the ship and sail around the world for 6 to 9 months at a time, for no good reason), our relationship began to deteriorate for many reasons that are irrelevant to this thread.

When he returned, we were both very hurt, and dangerously close to not making it.

We stayed together, though, and did our best to work things out...to no avail.

Unfortunately, after his return I became pregnant with his daughter.

Something happens to me when I become pregnant...a sort of "clarity" comes over me, and I able to make better decisions for the happiness of myself and my family.

The things that he had done to me while he was gone finally brought me to the decision that our relationship was unhealthy, and that it had to be ended.

When I broke it off with him, he decided that he had been hurt so badly by this, that he didn't want anything to do with my daughter, or his.

He walked.

I spent the majority of my pregnancy agonizing over what I would do financially. I wasn't able to afford the life I had, let alone the life to come with a second child in it. (the Navy doesn't pay beans, and doesn't care if you are not able to survive. It isn't their problem, no matter WHAT the commercials say !)

During my 8th month, I came to the most painful decision of my entire life. I was going to place my daughter, Alora Eve, up for adoption.

It was a heart-wrenching ordeal.

When she was born, I told the nursing staff that I didn't want to see her. I felt that it would be too difficult. I had already chosen her parents, and asked that she be given directly to them.

20 minutes later, I changed my mind. That was MY little girl, and it was my right to bond with her, even if I couldn't keep her.

They brought her to me, and I holed myself up in my room with her for 5 days.

I caressed her skin, sang to her, cried over her, and slept with her. I memorized her every sound, every aspect of her physical likeness, her smell.

I begged God to get me through it all, and was finally able to let the adoptive parents in to take her home.

I died that day.

You cannot imagine what that kind of loss does to a person's psyche.

It took me two years to recover to the point that I could trust myself in another relationship. (It still hurts, but I can function now)

The point to my story is that I had the option of getting an abortion, because I knew what the outcome would be. I knew I could not keep her...I simply couldn't afford it. I wanted her to have a GOOD life, not just a mediocre life.

I could have avoided the pain and heartache of losing someone that close to me. I could have chosen the easier route.

But I didn't...why ? Because that is DAMN SELFISH !!!

It wasn't her fault that she had a piece-of-crap sperm-donor of a father that was too irresponsible and selfish to love her above himself.

And it wouldn't have been right to rob her of her life, simply because I didn't want to feel the pain of losing her, or didn't like the manner in which she had been conceived.

I have given two people that were unable to have children the gift of life.

I have given precious Alora her God-given right to exist.

I believe she was brought to me for a reason...she has a purpose, just as we all do. Just as every new baby does.



[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-11-2004).]

I do admire you for making that choise. But you can't force someone else too.

Interestingly, adoption generally IS more emotionally damaging then abortion, I guess because there is actually some ammount of bonding, just after, even during birth, of course, that guess is just speculation.

Other point I wanted to make was, people will get them anyway, as I'm sure people have told you many, many times.

You can have a "safe" abortion, with some risks of complication, or a backyard job, where there is quite likely to be serious complications, like death.

So you can choose, legal - mother almost always lives, illeagal - mother is at huge risk of death.

Fetus dies either way. Doesn't make a shred of difference.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

I'm quite sure that abortions would be a lot less common if young people had decent sex education. This abstinance only crap is useless. Perhaps it might have worked years ago, but in recent times, the age of puberty has been going down, and the age of marraige going up, while in say, Victorian times, they were rather close.



Those fundies are sooooo stupid, they can't put 2 and 2 together. If you want less abortion then you need a better Health Care for distribution of Contraceptives, and much much better Sex Education.

[This message has been edited by Keltoiberserker (edited 08-11-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:



stfu with murder.

it is

who cares?

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

For all you anti-abortionites out there,

If a woman has a tubal pregnancy, should her and the fertilized egg just be left to die due to circumstance?

There's 2 choices with a tubal pregnancy.

1. Abort and the mother lives

2. Both die.

But don't you see, Dark_Magneto?

It's God's Plan.

There was a broken link in my last post...sorry.

Matthew 19:14

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

- http://www.geocities.com/abortion_no04

Exactly. Jesus had the right idea. Why hinder them by making their journey 73-80 years longer than it needs to be?

If we kill them before they're born, they reach heaven that much faster. If the mom decides this should be the case, why do you have a problem with it?

quote:Semantics.

I enjoy the murder of an innocent child.

MORE FETUSCIDE, I SAY!!!

One could just as easily say "it's not you choosing to shoot up heroin I abhor, it's the heroin." It's still being a junkie that you don't like.

So, if I go and punch you in the twat, you'll accept it and go on about your merry way?

It did have a purpose, after all. To demonstrate that you are not bound by fate. Fate exists, but in a different way that you are portraying it.

Hell yes, it does. I have full right to murder a child molester or a rapist, and don't you dare tell me I don't.

Good. All the more reason to kill him, so he can get into heaven easier.

Oh, bullshit. The majority of aboritons occur before there's even a fucking brain.

You're right. It DOES have a specific purpose.

To die. To be aborted.

If it had some othe rpurpose, then God would find a way, and it wouldn't be aborted.

"God's Plan" doesn't always work to your benefit.

No. Because you are DAMN STUPID.

Watch God's Plan come back to bite you in the ass and have the parents be pedophile dominatrixes or something.

Then you'll wish you'd killed her before she had a spinal cord.

I admire that you decided to put it up for adoption. At the same time, I think you're a moron. You should have just had the abortion and spared yourself the trouble.

If a man rapes my pre-teen son, am I wrong in murdering him?

God seemed to have no problem doing his own "late-term abortions," when murdering all the first-born of Egypt.

The Christian perspective is a load of shit. Christ was a moron. You'll forget all about turning the other cheek the second you have to actually do it.

Blah, blah, blah.

This is true, we do not know when the soul enters the body. However, we do know when the soul can begin to take control of the body, and that's not until it's got a brain. That's a least a few weeks into the pregnancy.

Very well. I condemn you. I herald Fetuscide for the life-saver it really is. I do not believe in forcing an already existing person to go through something they do not wish to go through for a non-existing person.

Same reason I'm against forced conversions, by the by.

First, I would like to say that your narrow-minded way of thinking is scary...and is why our country is in the state it is in.

Second, your anger nullifies anything valid that may have been accepted from your opinions. It does not seem as though your thoughts on abortion stem from actual logic, but from your animosity towards a God that you apparently don't believe exists.

Heroin, and infants, are entirely different things. Unfortunately, they are equal in importance to you. How sad.

If you punched me in the twat, I'd have to kick you in the balls. That's human nature for ya.

The purpose of that would be to satisfy your sadistic need to lash out at anyone representing Christ.

You have NO right to murder a rapist or a child molester, because you are not the Creator. The "eye for an eye" scenario occured during old testament times. We are no longer held under the laws of Moses, so to speak.

Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Deuteronomy 32

43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people,

for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people. (NIV)

Isaiah 34:8

For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause. (NIV)

Psalm 94:1

O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. (KJV)

You are so misinformed about how many abortions occur before the brain is formed. Look at some of the links I gave in my last post. The numbers are there. You would be surprised how many are ripped apart, piece by piece, at the age that you deem unacceptable.

God did not invent abortion. So, to say that He should be able to find "another way" is ridiculous. Man will fall victim to his own devices, regardless of what God does. The child was created, regardless of circumstance, for a reason. I don't happen to believe that the reason should ever be abortion.

Hmmm...I'm stupid ? I don't believe I have illustrated the qualities necessary to deserve such a title.

I know the parents of my daughter personally. It is an "open adoption". Do you know what that means ? She still knows who I am. She will know the circumstances surrounding her adoption. We have yearly visits, and exchange pictures. I made an informed decision when I chose her adoptive parents. No chance of pedophiliac related dominatrix sex going on there.

No matter what, God has a plan, and I would never wish I had aborted her, over letting her live her God given life.

By the way, to "spare myself the trouble" of having a child and experiencing the pain of such loss is the ultimate display of selfishness. I am no more important than any other human being, least of all my children. That pain brought a beautiful little girl into this world, and I don't regret it.

Exodus 11 - 5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

Do you even understand the premise behind what happened to Egypt ? This was only one of many plagues, and the reasoning behind them was Egypt's abuse of the Israelites.

Over and again, Pharaoh was given the opportunity to set the Hebrews free, and he didn't. Moses and Aaron warned him repeatedly that these plagues would come to them, if he did not heed the word of God, and still Pharaoh refused to listen.

We are all God's creation, and He can do with us what He likes. We may not like this notion, but there really isn't a choice in the matter. Even if you don't believe in God, He still exists, and He will still do what He wants with us.

Egypt was deaf to His commands, and rebellious. So, they paid the price.

The end result ? The freedom of God's chosen people, the Israelites.

I hardly ever turn my cheek when the other is struck. I am still human, and have never claimed to be perfect. But through God (who strengthens me) I can accomplish anything. Unfortunately, I don't often turn to God when I need Him most. I am still a very flawed person, and am thankful I have the redemption of the blood of Christ to cover my sins, because I would surely burn otherwise.

How have you determined when a soul can take control over a body ? A soul is not something that is testable by human science, so your claim is invalid.

You cannot prove with any solidity that a baby that is only 2 weeks or less in age is not a person. That is a very convenient assumption, to support the responsibility one must take for the decision to kill their own child.

"I don't have to feel anything about killing this baby, because it's not really a person, so therefor it's ok."

THAT is bullshit, above all else.

What a twisted way of viewing the world !

No one is forced into conversion. You listen, and either believe, or don't.

When I speak on Totse, it is completely up to the readers whether or not they read MY posts.

Now, please go find someone to give you a hug. You are in desperate need of one.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Exactly. Jesus had the right idea. Why hinder them by making their journey 73-80 years longer than it needs to be?

If we kill them before they're born, they reach heaven that much faster. If the mom decides this should be the case, why do you have a problem with it?

Because that is not UP TO ME !

And it's not up to YOU, and it's not up to ANYONE else to decide when someone else perishes from this earth.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Because that is not UP TO ME !

And it's not up to YOU, and it's not up to ANYONE else to decide when someone else perishes from this earth.



But, you see, if it happened, then it was obviously God's Plan.

God WANTS us to kill the babies. It's all part of his grand scheme. It's simple fate, you see.

The pregnancy happened for a reason. Abortion is the choice of man.

God does not affect our free will, just as He promised.

It is not the will of God for us to murder ANYONE, let alone children.

You are an idiot, and I won't be responding to you anymore.

You don't deserve it, and are obviously not here with the intention of understanding.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The pregnancy happened for a reason. Abortion is the choice of man.

God does not affect our free will, just as He promised.

Then he plans nothing. Then God has no reason for anything.

You cannot pick and choose what's divinely-inspired and what isn't. There isn't always a happy ending in God's Plan.

quote:It is not the will of God for us to murder ANYONE, let alone children.

What of the Canaanites?

quote:You are an idiot, and I won't be responding to you anymore.

You don't deserve it, and are obviously not here with the intention of understanding.

No, no. I'm not an idiot. I'm someone playing Devil's Advocate to get you thinking.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

So what if it's the same organism. It's going to be a person, therefore a killing fetus is a much different thing than chopping off a finger.

Abortion is knowingly messing with someones right to life. Before or after birth. If you prevent the birth of a child, you are killing the child.

When you jerk off or have sex using condomes, do you realize that you take someone's life away?

You violate babies right to live.

If you ban abortion, you should ban masturbation and condomes.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You are an idiot, and I won't be responding to you anymore.

You don't deserve it, and are obviously not here with the intention of understanding.

Haha, you judge people, again and again and again.

It goes on, and on, and on...

Thy shalt not judge.

It's "thou."

Either everything is God's plan - including abortion, or nothing is - shit happens, he doesn't interfere at all.

You can't have it both ways, like that rabbi dude said.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

It's "thou."

Indeed it is...

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

But don't you see, Dark_Magneto?

It's God's Plan.

Yeah, well, since when has anything good come from quote/unquote "God's" plan?

If we didn't interfere and just let God's plan work it's magic, everyone would have died from diseases a long time ago.

"Don't burn those black death infested bodies! Don't bury your dead! Don't ostracise lepars! Don't you see it's all God's plan that you die from horrible communicable and yet preventable & containable disease!"

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

It's "thou."

I though the quote was "judge not lest ye be judged" Except not in old english.

... ok, I made a mistake.

It will be never be possible to get everyone to agree on the subject of abortion.Everyone forms their own opinions based on their personal belief and point of view.

I personally hold to the notion that ,even though the child hasn't formed yet,human life begins as soon as the egg is fertilized.I don't entertain this position due to any religious belief.It is just my opinion.

I believe that abortion is acceptable in certain situations. Rape, incest,and if the pregnancy is life threatening to the mother are acceptable reasons.Also , if the fetus has a very poor chance of going full term, abortion should be considered.

What I am against, is women using abortion as an alternate form of birth control.Everyone old enough to engage in sexual intercourse knows that pregnancy could be the result.People are ultimately responsible for their actions.If you are unwilling to bring a child into the world, there are several methods of contraception available.There is really no excuse for an unwanted pregnancy to occur as a result of sex between two consenting adults.If someone is too stupid to use some form of contraceptive,they shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

I'm glad Rabbi or whoever pointed out the whole "God's plan" thing. I've always had a problem with this, and could never express it in an intelligent way until a little later in my life. I started realizing this stuff when I was like 10. One of my friends dad died, and his mom always explained it as "It was just God's plan, he's in a better place". It was at the dinner table, and being a retarded 10 year old, I said something along the lines of, "Then why doesn't God kill all of us like he did Mr. Peterson?" (The only people at the table were me, my friend, his mom, and his uncle, he was there for emotional support). I didn't even realize how hurtful my words were until a few years later. But I remember that she just stammered for a while, then ran upstairs crying, I had to go home after that. Anyway, yeah, I've always hated it when people say "gods plan", Just like it was god's plan to exterminate HIS people in WWII, blah blah blah (I don't feel like typing countless injustices in the world). You get the point.

Another ramification is this, God doesn't perform miracles. If he did, then he is a cold-hearted bastard. Why would he "part the seas" for Moses and a few hundred Jews, and not just "put hitler to sleep" and savea few million? Why would God feed 5,000 people with fish and bread and not feed the millions of dying, starving children now? Either God got bored of doing petty miracles, or he never did them in the first place, or he doesn't exist.

quote:Originally posted by Sniper:

Haha, you judge people, again and again and again.

It goes on, and on, and on...

Thy shalt not judge.

You wish that were true...this is the first instance of ANYTHING like this coming from me. Pay attention.

And no, masturbating is not taking a life away...that is the most ignorant thing I think I have ever heard.

There is a difference between a child that "could be" and a child that "already is". I feel sorry for you that you cannot see the distinction between the two.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

It will be never be possible to get everyone to agree on the subject of abortion.Everyone forms their own opinions based on their personal belief and point of view.

I personally hold to the notion that ,even though the child hasn't formed yet,human life begins as soon as the egg is fertilized.I don't entertain this position due to any religious belief.It is just my opinion.

I believe that abortion is acceptable in certain situations. Rape, incest,and if the pregnancy is life threatening to the mother are acceptable reasons.Also , if the fetus has a very poor chance of going full term, abortion should be considered.

What I am against, is women using abortion as an alternate form of birth control.Everyone old enough to engage in sexual intercourse knows that pregnancy could be the result.People are ultimately responsible for their actions.If you are unwilling to bring a child into the world, there are several methods of contraception available.There is really no excuse for an unwanted pregnancy to occur as a result of sex between two consenting adults.If someone is too stupid to use some form of contraceptive,they shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

And to this I say, "Amen !"

I don't agree with abortion, IN ANY CASE, but in our society I would settle happily for this happy medium.

If only for rape and health issues, then so be it.

That would eliminate 93% of the children that are ripped to shreds mercilessly because of irresponsibility.

Ripped to shreds? Atleast be accurate; it's more of a gooey formless ball of flesh. Quite together, not ripped in shreds at all.

Something ironic I've noticed with abortion:

Most against abortion are okay with capital punishment; most against capital punishment are okay with abortion.

Can people get their priorities straight? Either we can play with life and death or we can't...make up your minds.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

There is a difference between a child that "could be" and a child that "already is". I feel sorry for you that you cannot see the distinction between the two.

Then contraception is ok? I think the bible says differently.

I really just have the urge to say "shut the fuck up" rather than attempt to say anything intelligent. It's the same old fucking debate day after day, year after year. Abortion: murder or not? When is the fetus alive? When is it sentient?

Here's how I feel about abortion. It's not hurting anybody else. It doesn't hurt society. It doesn't hurt the fetus (because the fetus isn't self-aware yet). If you're against abortion I guess you're against killing animals too, right?

If you want to play that way, a full grown cow feels more pain from dying than a fetus. But I guess it's different because people are totally different, right?

And furthermore. If I decide to have an abortion (let's just say I'm a woman), then isn't that part of "God's Plan" too, because God created me and thus everything I do is a reflection of God? Oh wait in Christianity saying it's part of "god's plan" is just a catch-all to avoid unpleasant sensations you'd rather not deal with.

It's "god's plan" when it cna't be prevented, but not god's plan when it can be. Because after all we have free will. Except when we die god tells us to go to hell. Thought we had free will. Guess not.

Digital you are a fucking hypocrite and you've got me mad now. Also Kikey/Rabbi was being FACETIOUS in his first post. You're a rube if you can't see that. Or being purposefully obtuse.

Rabbi, I love you. If I missed anything in this post, Kikey has it taken care of. Everything he's said so far, I agree with.

Oh and could a mod please lock this.

There's no need for locking. You should expect heated debate in this particular forum.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Something ironic I've noticed with abortion:

Most against abortion are okay with capital punishment; most against capital punishment are okay with abortion.

Can people get their priorities straight? Either we can play with life and death or we can't...make up your minds.



Word.

Same goes for war. Especially pointless war.

Nobody has a problem with heated debates; I think it's the overpassionate debating of a 'go nowhere' topic that is fucking stupid.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Can people get their priorities straight? Either we can play with life and death or we can't...make up your minds.

There's a monumental difference between executing a human being and expelling an egg with the morning after pill.

Abortion is also a medically necessary practice in numerous instances, like ectopic pregnancy, and hydroencephalus.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Ripped to shreds? Atleast be accurate; it's more of a gooey formless ball of flesh. Quite together, not ripped in shreds at all.

You don't actually "look" at the stuff I post, do you ?

Look at THESE sites, and tell me these children weren't RIPPED to SHREDS !!!!

- http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html

- http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/inProgress.html

Tell me you are not so obtuse...

Most abortions occur after the second week of pregnancy. At that point, the child has already formed hands and feet.

I love the glamorous world that you live in where abortions don't hurt anyone (including the mother), and just make everything all better. (A.K.A. allow us all to continue being promiscuous and irresponsible)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

There's a monumental difference between executing a human being and expelling an egg with the morning after pill.

Abortion is also a medically necessary practice in numerous instances, like ectopic pregnancy, and hydroencephalus.



No there's not. If you're going to play God, do it all the time, not just when it makes you feel good.

I don't believe in Capital Punishment. I don't believe that we are allowed to take human life, no matter what. But this is where you say that unborn children aren't human.

Well, sorry to tell ya, but life begins at the time of conception.

In the cases involving health issues, that only includes about 6% of all the abortions that are done. 93% are done because of personal reasons (i.e. not wanting the child).

I don't feel that abortions are right in any case, but I do believe that if they were restricted to the cases in which it is deemed "necessary" by a healthcare provider, the world would be a better place. More populated, but better.

You cannot justify the irresponsiblility of that 93% because of the 6% that actually need it. That's just ridiculous.

Don't make assumptions. I don't like abortions, I'm against abortions. BUT, I think they should be kept legal because some people make choices that fuck their lives up and fuck up other lives...but you know what? They'll get theirs. I don't need to illegalize an action and force subjective judication upon an action that has natural consequences. Abortions have physical and psychological consequences, that's enough; if people are willing to take the anguish and physical scars, then the action is something they may need to do, whether or not I think it's wrong.

Another way to look at all those abortion statistics is on the positive side! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

"x" number of aborted babies means "x" less people on earth!

That's "x" more food and serivices for us!

YAY!

but on a serious note, overpopulation is a big problem. I'm not saying it should be solved with abortions, I'm just saying that will fuck us up too.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I don't feel that abortions are right in any case, but I do believe that if they were restricted to the cases in which it is deemed "necessary" by a healthcare provider, the world would be a better place. More populated, but better.

Why?

Because we'll have more women forced to raise a child they don't want? Because we'll have more children being raised in orphanges?

Or maybe it's because we'll have finally abidded by your values and bended backward to follow your morals?

quote:You cannot justify the irresponsiblility of that 93% because of the 6% that actually need it. That's just ridiculous.

Having an abortion isn't irresponsible. Not using proper birth control if you don't want to get pregnant is.

If you don't use birth control, and then have an unwanted pregnancy, abortion is about the most responsible thing you could do.

Abortions are nifty; we can cure paralysis with their stem cells! Isn't abortion great kids?

Actually, you'll get far more stem cells from the placenta of a woman whose just given birth than you will from an abortion.

Plus, the method currently used for gathering stem cells involves creating an embryo in a lab. This means, this embryo's in a perti dish, not a uterus. There's no way that it could survive and grow into a full human, unless implanted into a female.

I love stem cells. I don't see what the big deal is about them. We could do so much, medicine could be revolutionized.

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Don't make assumptions. I don't like abortions, I'm against abortions. BUT, I think they should be kept legal because some people make choices that fuck their lives up and fuck up other lives...but you know what? They'll get theirs. I don't need to illegalize an action and force subjective judication upon an action that has natural consequences. Abortions have physical and psychological consequences, that's enough; if people are willing to take the anguish and physical scars, then the action is something they may need to do, whether or not I think it's wrong.

I wasn't making assumptions. Based on what you said, my conclusions were obviously derived from what you conveyed your opinion to be.

I am glad you feel the way you do (for the most part), but this still doesn't excuse the fact that this is the murder of innocent children.

THAT is why it should not be available to the general public. If only in the name of "health", then fine.

I don't really care if these people make decisions that will ruin their lives. IT WAS THEIR CHOICE TO HAVE SEX IRRESPONSIBLY. Pregnancy never happens by accident (except for in the cases of rape, or teen molestation). These same people need to face up to their choices. They CHOSE to spread their legs. Why should a precious little baby DIE because their parents find them inconvenient ?

You cannot say abortion is wrong, and in the same breath say that it is their choice. It just doesn't make sense.

I apologize if I seem like a witch about this, but obviously this is a sore spot for me.

The choice to murder children should be illiegal to the general public.

There is obviously an underlying issue here...you don't see people lining up to donate their kidney, because it is their right.

You don't have the right to have your leg removed, just because it has become inconvenient to you.

From what pro-abortionists say, your leg is no more important than a fetus, because a fetus is just a piece of flesh, just like your leg is. So, why isn't it legal to have your leg removed ?

Because it is NOT inconvenient. It is not a financial burden, and it is NOT a testimony to the whole world that you are promiscuous.

How do you explain your leg's existence ? "I was born with it." How do you explain your baby's existence ? "I was screwing around with a guy I met in my economics class." ?! Hell NO! Eliminate the embarassment. Get an abortion. Problem solved.

Except it's not. Just as you said, it causes deep emotional, and sometimes physical scarring. That's right folks, it's not just the illegal back alley abortions that cause sterility, or infections, or endometriosis. Abortion does not just murder children, it injures women to. In a lot more cases than you ever hear about. (and no, I am not privvy to this information. It is out there, if you just look)

Stop turning a blind eye to the atrocities that break down our great country, and the people in it.

ABORTION IS NOT OKAY !

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Actually, you'll get far more stem cells from the placenta of a woman whose just given birth than you will from an abortion.

Plus, the method currently used for gathering stem cells involves creating an embryo in a lab. This means, this embryo's in a perti dish, not a uterus. There's no way that it could survive and grow into a full human, unless implanted into a female.

I love stem cells. I don't see what the big deal is about them. We could do so much, medicine could be revolutionized.



I thought you were a republican?

p.s. I agree with you here. 100 %

quote:Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Abortions are nifty; we can cure paralysis with their stem cells! Isn't abortion great kids?

I bet if you wrere paralyzed you'd sing a different hymn.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Another way to look at all those abortion statistics is on the positive side! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

"x" number of aborted babies means "x" less people on earth!

That's "x" more food and serivices for us!

YAY!

but on a serious note, overpopulation is a big problem. I'm not saying it should be solved with abortions, I'm just saying that will fuck us up too.



Fundamentalist's don't have that world view, they think jesus will save them, contrary to reason. Overpopulation is a tremendous problem.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:



I thought you were a republican?

p.s. I agree with you here. 100 %



I am a Republican.

Just because our party has been commandeered by a bunch of fascist bastards doesn't mean the true Republican ideals have died out completely.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Having an abortion isn't irresponsible. Not using proper birth control if you don't want to get pregnant is.

If you don't use birth control, and then have an unwanted pregnancy, abortion is about the most responsible thing you could do.

But you fail to look at the REAL issue which is PEOPLE HAVING SEX.

Don't have sex if you cannot completely be responsible for the consequences.

Guess what ? Screwing around gets you pregnant. BE RESPONSIBLE !

If there is an unwanted child on the way, how about not being so damn selfish and recognizing that there are MILLIONS of people on this planet that CANNOT have children, and would love to have YOUR unwanted child ?

The responsible thing to do in the first place is to just not put yourself in a position where an unwanted child is a possible outcome of your actions.

"What ?! Don't have sex ?!" Oh, the horror !

Learn how to control yourself ! You can't stop having sex until you can HANDLE the possibility of having a child ?

The emotional after-effects of abortion has taken it's toll on millions of women. A majority become suicidal, and still others must seek extensive psychological counseling. This is healthy ? This is safe ? THIS IS THE ANSWER to irresponsibility ?

I don't think so.

I didn't say that abortion is irresponsible. The irresponsibility stems from people doing things that they don't want to "pay" for. "I want to have sex, but I don't want to have children." Well, there's steps you can take to prevent that !

What is WRONG with people ?!

Who gives a crap about my morals ? I don't expect, nor want, people to bend to mine. I expect people to stop acting like idiots. I expect them to take RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. Murdering children doesn't make it better that you're a slut.

(the words "you" and "you're" reflect society as a whole)

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Actually, you'll get far more stem cells from the placenta of a woman whose just given birth than you will from an abortion.

Plus, the method currently used for gathering stem cells involves creating an embryo in a lab. This means, this embryo's in a perti dish, not a uterus. There's no way that it could survive and grow into a full human, unless implanted into a female.

I love stem cells. I don't see what the big deal is about them. We could do so much, medicine could be revolutionized.

And I donated my umbilical cords from 2 of my 3 pregnancies, in order to assist in this research.

But let's not forget at what cost these fetus' are being "harvested".

Disgusting.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

I bet if you wrere paralyzed you'd sing a different hymn.

My fate is my fate. I don't condone the production of fetus' in order to change my fate.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

My fate is my fate. I don't condone the production of fetus' in order to change my fate.

Bullshit.Stem cells never become fetuses, and the catholic church(as if they had a shread of credibility) has no problem with fertility treatments, which produce numerous embryos. That is why they call it "embryonic stem cell research". Why put cells on a higher plane than god's existing works?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

But you fail to look at the REAL issue which is PEOPLE HAVING SEX.

Don't have sex if you cannot completely be responsible for the consequences.

I agree. I don't like irresponsible teens midlessly fucking, without a care in the world.

But it's BECAUSE I don't like that, that I support abortions.

quote:Guess what ? Screwing around gets you pregnant. BE RESPONSIBLE !

Indeed. Amazing that we agree on this.

Where we differ, perhaps, is the methods used to 'BE RESPONSIBLE.' I think using condoms and proper birth control is being responsible.

And I think, if those fail, and you GET pregnant with a child you do not want and cannot care for, that abortion is being responsible, as well.

quote:If there is an unwanted child on the way, how about not being so damn selfish and recognizing that there are MILLIONS of people on this planet that CANNOT have children, and would love to have YOUR unwanted child ?

If there are MILLIONS of people on this planet that want to adopt, then why do we have so goddamn many orphans in this country to go unadopted?

quote:The responsible thing to do in the first place is to just not put yourself in a position where an unwanted child is a possible outcome of your actions.

This is true. This is also living in a fantasy dream world. I live in reality.

quote:"What ?! Don't have sex ?!" Oh, the horror !

Learn how to control yourself ! You can't stop having sex until you can HANDLE the possibility of having a child ?

No, these kids can't. I can't. She can't. The majority of kids can't.

You know why? Because it feels so fucking good.

So, instead of telling kids to do something which they will have no chance in hell of doing, how about trying to cope with the reality of the situation and minimizing the risks?

I bet you wouldn't put your daughter on the pill if you knew she was having sex.

quote:The emotional after-effects of abortion has taken it's toll on millions of women. A majority become suicidal, and still others must seek extensive psychological counseling.

And, as you stated yourself in what you hoped would be your heart-wrenching story, giving the kid up for adoption takes it's toll on the woman emotionally, as well.

Does that mean we should outlaw adoption?

quote: This is healthy ? This is safe ? THIS IS THE ANSWER to irresponsibility ?

Yes.

quote:I don't think so.

You think wrong.

quote:I didn't say that abortion is irresponsible. The irresponsibility stems from people doing things that they don't want to "pay" for. "I want to have sex, but I don't want to have children." Well, there's steps you can take to prevent that !

Yes, there is. And most do. I know I do. I think rare is the time you will find women using abortion as a method of birth control.

But when those steps fail, abortion is an answer to keep them from having to deal with a mistake for the rest of their life.

And yes, I'm SURE you'll argue that a baby is never a mistake, but that's bullshit. And you know it. How many children are born addicted to crack? How many die of neglect? I guarantee that those women did not want those children, and those children would not have to go through such pain, if they were aborted.

quote:What is WRONG with people ?!

They follow morals like yours, that's what's wrong with them.

quote:Who gives a crap about my morals ? I don't expect, nor want, people to bend to mine.

Then you wouldn't be calling for an end to abortion. You'd simply choose not to partake of the procedure yourself.

quote: I expect people to stop acting like idiots. I expect them to take RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. Murdering children doesn't make it better that you're a slut.

Oh, please. Give me a fucking break.

So now you trot out the old argument that women who have abortions are sluts. How many scared and lonely women have your kind scared away from having abortions by shouting that at her while you're protesting in front of the clinics?

I bet you're damn proud of that number, too.

It only showcases that you and your kind are not compassionate in the least. The baby killers are the true compassionates.

Having an abortion IS taking responsibility. That is not a lightly made decision, and to decide that you cannot deal with raising this child is a damn responsible thing to do. An idiot of a girl would decide that she wants to be a 'mommy' and would birth the child when she cannot care for it at all.

You may have just motivated me to change my intended field once I become a doctor from dermatology to fetuscide.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

My fate is my fate. I don't condone the production of fetus' in order to change my fate.

Care to take a baseball bat to the spinal cord to prove that?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and an embryo is not a fetus. Nor could it become a fetus, using the current process of cultivating stem cells from embryos.

[This message has been edited by The_Rabbi (edited 08-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:



Fundamentalist's don't have that world view, they think jesus will save them, contrary to reason. Overpopulation is a tremendous problem.

A tremendous problem ? DO YOUR HOMEWORK !

- http://johnw.host.sk/islamicarticles/overpopulation.htm

"In Simon's posthumous publication, Hoodwinking the Nation, Simon states that there is a funding incentive for scholars and institutions to produce bad news about population, resources and the environment. For example, the U.S. Agency for International Development and the U.N. Fund for Population Activities spend more than $100 million a year in the effort to stop population growth. Much of this money goes to studies and publications that show why fertility decline is a good thing. One of Ehrlich's recommendations is to dump chemicals in the water supply to control population!" http://www.aero-vision.com/~licl/HS0703.html

Is there overpopulation in some areas ? Of course. But there is PLENTY of land that has yet to be developed. Take Texas, for example. There is SO much land that has yet to be utilized. People CHOOSE to overpopulate New York City, San Diego, and the like. SPREAD OUT !

Yes, China is overpopulated. But they don't expand, either.

No more than 1 to 3 percent of the earth's ice-free land area is occupied by human beings, less than one-ninth is used for agricultural purposes.

In Ralph Epperson's book 'The Unseen Hand,' he stated that the world had approximately 4 billion people (now closer to five). If you took the population of the world, split it up into families of four and gave them each a piece of land 50' x 53', the entire population of the planet would fit neatly into the state of Oregon.

In Mary Pride's book 'The Way Home,' she calculated that you could give every person in the world 2,000 square feet (which is larger than most homes) and everyone would fit into the state of Texas.

I find it interesting that many densely populated countries with relatively free economies are thriving, and are seldom mentioned in the "over-population" debate, while sparsely populated nations with oppressive governments are "plagued with problems relating to population.

Taiwan, with a population density of five times that of China, produces 20 times as much Gross National Product than China. Similarly, Singapore, with a density of 11,910 per square mile, enjoys a per capita GNP of $8,782, while Ethiopia, with a density of 101 per square mile, has a per capita GNP of $121.

Considering these figures, I don't see how you can justify killing babies just so the world will not become overpopulated.

By the way, here is what God has to say about it:

Genesis 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Bullshit.Stem cells never become fetuses, and the catholic church(as if they had a shread of credibility) has no problem with fertility treatments, which produce numerous embryos. That is why they call it "embryonic stem cell research". Why put cells on a higher plane than god's existing works?

Once again, you are too ignorant in what you believe to be a credit to those that you try to represent.

On the official 'National Institutes of Health' website, they describe stem cell research this way:

"Pluripotent stem cells are isolated from human embryos that are a few days old. Cells from these embryos can be used to create pluripotent stem cell "lines" —cell cultures that can be grown indefinitely in the laboratory. Pluripotent stem cell lines have also been developed from fetal tissue obtained from fetal tissue (older than 8 weeks of development)." http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/faqs.asp#whatare

Older than 8 weeks of development ?

fe·tus - In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

So, babies ARE being aborted in order to support stem cell research.

Stop making your desire to murder babies justified by making pretty-colored exemptions for it in the name of scientific posterity.

An example ? "Stem cell lines grown in the lab provide scientists with the opportunity to "engineer" them for use in transplantation or treatment of diseases. For example, before scientists can use any type of tissue, organ, or cell for transplantation, they must overcome attempts by a patient's immune system to reject the transplant. In the future, scientists may be able to modify human stem cell lines in the laboratory by using gene therapy or other techniques to overcome this immune rejection. Scientists might also be able to replace damaged genes or add new genes to stem cells in order to give them characteristics that can ultimately treat diseases."

Yeah...that sounds great, and the intention is fantastic. However, babies must be manufactured in petri dishes, or aborted from their mother's, in order to make this a reality.

Why put one living organism over another in importance at all ?

Life is life.

By the way:

"Scientists have only been able to do experiments with human embryonic stem cells (hESC) since 1998, when a group led by Dr. James Thompson at the University of Wisconsin developed a technique to isolate and grow the cells. Moreover, Federal funds to support hESC research have only been available since August 9, 2001, when President Bush announced his decision on Federal funding for hESC research. Because many academic researchers rely on Federal funds to support their laboratories, they are just beginning to learn how to grow and use the cells. Thus, although hESC are thought to offer potential cures and therapies for many devastating diseases, research using them is still in its early stages."

So, basically scientists have not yet been able to prove that this will actually work. They just want to keep killing babies so they can study their hypothesis that this will accomplish what they say it will.

I know that many atrocities have been committed in the name of science, but I wasn't around for them, so I couldn't oppose them.

To say that abortion is ok because it will aid science in producing cures for disease is the same as saying it was ok for Hitler to mutilate people, doing various grotesque scientific experiments on them (euthanasia), for the sake of "purging" the earth of it's origins of disease.

"In Mein Kampf, Hitler states that "anyone who wants to cure this era, which is inwardly sick and rotten, must first of all summon up the courage to make clear the causes of the disease," (Lifton 212). As the cause of the disease, he was referring to Jews, gypsies and all those accused of racial contamination who were supposedly detrimental to the German race. Thus the first stage of the medical experiments which led to the gas chambers at concentration camps, specifically the experiments concerning methods of "euthanasia" (the medicalized killing of those who were a "danger" to society), was directly related to and supposedly justified by Nazi ideology since it purged the German race of its unwanted elements.

At places like Auschwitz the killing was regarded as a means of healing Germany and curing it of the racial disease, thus leading to what has been called the "healing-killing paradox" wherein SS doctors could get around issues of moral and ethical conscience concerning their medicalized killing and experimentation because they equated killing with healing." http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/ib_holocaust2001/Final_Solution/selected_camps/auschwitz_medical_experiments.htm

SOUND FAMILIAR ?

"Within the context of the struggle to form the perfect Aryan race, the Holocaust was seen by Nazis and many others as a necessary evil, as the victims had been reduced to a subhuman level and thus did not deserve to be treated ethically."

This could be altered into:

"Within the context of the struggle to form a disease free race, stem cell research was seen by scientists and many others as a necessary evil, as the victims had been reduced to a subhuman level and thus did not deserve to be treated ethically."

"It's not a child, it's a choice."

quote:Digital:

Well, sorry to tell ya, but life begins at the time of conception.

Prove it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Once again, you are too ignorant in what you believe to be a credit to those that you try to represent.

On the official 'National Institutes of Health' website, they describe stem cell research this way:

"Pluripotent stem cells are isolated from human embryos that are a few days old. Cells from these embryos can be used to create pluripotent stem cell "lines" —cell cultures that can be grown indefinitely in the laboratory. Pluripotent stem cell lines have also been developed from fetal tissue obtained from fetal tissue (older than 8 weeks of development)." http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/faqs.asp#whatare

Older than 8 weeks of development ?

fe·tus - In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

So, babies ARE being aborted in order to support stem cell research.

Stop making your desire to murder babies justified by making pretty-colored exemptions for it in the name of scientific posterity.

An example ? "Stem cell lines grown in the lab provide scientists with the opportunity to "engineer" them for use in transplantation or treatment of diseases. For example, before scientists can use any type of tissue, organ, or cell for transplantation, they must overcome attempts by a patient's immune system to reject the transplant. In the future, scientists may be able to modify human stem cell lines in the laboratory by using gene therapy or other techniques to overcome this immune rejection. Scientists might also be able to replace damaged genes or add new genes to stem cells in order to give them characteristics that can ultimately treat diseases."

Yeah...that sounds great, and the intention is fantastic. However, babies must be manufactured in petri dishes, or aborted from their mother's, in order to make this a reality.

Why put one living organism over another in importance at all ?

Life is life.



I didn't read anything past your argument ad hominem. What did you say again?

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:



I didn't read anything past your argument ad hominem. What did you say again?



That's idiotic. You're only giving her satisfaction. Rebutt, before I do it for you.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Prove it.[/B]

Scientifically, it is a fact of nature that human life begins at conception. The following experts testified to this fact before a 1981 U.S. Senate Committee.

"It is incorrect to say biological data cannot be decisive...it is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception." Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"The beginning of a single human life is, from a biological point of view, a simple and straightforward matter -- the beginning is conception." Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School

The official Senate report reached this conclusion:

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being - a being that is a live and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings."

The following medical texts reaffirm this reality:

"The [zygote] results from the fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm, and is the beginning of a human being." Dr. Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2nd Edition

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive..." Dr.'s E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant



And before you retort, "This isn't scientific data proving that life begins at conception.", I ask you:

Prove that it doesn't.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



The emotional after-effects of abortion has taken it's toll on millions of women. A majority become suicidal, and still others must seek extensive psychological counseling. This is healthy ? This is safe ? THIS IS THE ANSWER to irresponsibility ?





BULLSHIT.

Majority become suicidal? what the fuck are you on?



quote:

Up to 98 percent of the women who have abortions have no regrets and would make the same choice again in similar circumstances



Doesn't seem like the sort of crap you imply, although I must admit, I'm not certain if you actually implied they would regret it or not... just that they would be suicidal.

quote:

A study of a group of teenagers who obtained pregnancy tests at one of two Baltimore clinics found that the young women who chose to have abortions were far more likely to graduate from high school at the expected age than those of similar socioeconomic status who carried their pregnancies to term or who were not pregnant. They showed no greater levels of stress at the time of the pregnancy and abortion and no greater rate of psychological problems two years after the abortion than did the other women



TEENAGERS, EMOTIONAL FUCKING TEENAGE GIRLS... half of them fucking cut themselves over a boyfriend who dumped them, yet they don't seem to have extensive psychological problems resulting from abortion.

quote:

Mild, transient, immediately postoperative depressive symptoms that quickly pass occur in less than 20 percent of all women who have had abortions (Adler et al., 1990; Zabin et al., 1989). Similar symptoms occur in up to 70 percent of women immediately following childbirth (Ziporyn, 1984).

Up to 10 percent of women who have abortions experience depressive symptoms of a lingering nature (Adler, 1989). Similar symptoms occur in up to 10 percent of women after childbirth (Ziporyn, 1984; Zolese & Blacker, 1992; Sachdev, 1993).

The experience of an unwanted pregnancy, rather than the abortion itself, may be the cause of any guilt or depression that exists (Adler et al., 1990; Zolese & Blacker, 1992).



*COUGH*

Here we are. Yep, 10 percent is certainly a majority... oh wait... you said sucidal.

Congradualtions your full of shit!

quote:

Serious psychological disturbances after abortion are less frequent than after childbirth (Brewer 1977). For example, rates of "postpartum psychosis" are reported as high as 19 per 10,000 and as low as 10 per 10,000 - 0.19-0.1 percent. Reports of the rates of severe psychological disturbance after abortion range from 18 per 10,000 to as low as 2 per 10,000 - 0.18-0.02 percent (David et al., 1985; Robinson & Stewart, 1993).

Researchers suggest that the predictors of severe psychological disturbances after abortion are

delays in seeking abortion

medical or genetic indications for abortion

severe pre-existing or concurrent psychiatric illness

conflict over abortion (Lazarus, 1985)



*sigh*

Thats enough, I've barely scratched the surface here...

The whole thing was: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/facts/emoteff_010600.html

And don't start telling me this was biased, because its a fuckload less biased then bullshit-baptist sources.

[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-13-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:



I didn't read anything past your argument ad hominem. What did you say again?

Of course you didn't. You can't handle actual logic and truth.

(and yes, you actually did. Curiosity killed the cat.)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Scientifically, it is a fact of nature that human life begins at conception. The following experts testified to this fact before a 1981 U.S. Senate Committee.

"It is incorrect to say biological data cannot be decisive...it is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception." Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"The beginning of a single human life is, from a biological point of view, a simple and straightforward matter -- the beginning is conception." Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School

The official Senate report reached this conclusion:

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being - a being that is a live and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings."

The following medical texts reaffirm this reality:

"The [zygote] results from the fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm, and is the beginning of a human being." Dr. Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2nd Edition

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive..." Dr.'s E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant



And before you retort, "This isn't scientific data proving that life begins at conception.", I ask you:

Prove that it doesn't.



BAM!!! Who's next?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Of course you didn't. You can't handle actual logic and truth.

(and yes, you actually did. Curiosity killed the cat.)

No, I really didn't, but Since I don't want the Rabbi to speak for me, I will.



Tomorrow.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I'll be looking forward to your dizzying intellect.

Get some sleep...you're really going to need all the energy you can muster to be angry at me again.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Scientifically, it is a fact of nature that human life begins at conception. The following experts testified to this fact before a 1981 U.S. Senate Committee.

"It is incorrect to say biological data cannot be decisive...it is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception." Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania

"The beginning of a single human life is, from a biological point of view, a simple and straightforward matter -- the beginning is conception." Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School

The official Senate report reached this conclusion:

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being - a being that is a live and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings."

The following medical texts reaffirm this reality:

"The [zygote] results from the fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm, and is the beginning of a human being." Dr. Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2nd Edition

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive..." Dr.'s E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant



[quote]And before you retort, "This isn't [b]scientific data proving that life begins at conception.", I ask you:

Prove that it doesn't.

It would certainly depend on what we define 'human life' as, wouldn't it?

An embryo can't think, can't make decisions on it's own, can't feel pain, can't BE. It has no consciousness, the soul cannot interact with the physical body yet.

It is alive, but is a group of cells 8 weeks from anything even close to a human, a human? It is a person? Does it have anything, any qualities we identify as being human about it?

No.

It has no brain, it is no person.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



BAM!!! Who's next?

Though your cheerleading skills are impressive, aTribeCalledSean-san, participate, damnit ! *laughs*

Stop being a spectator. I know you have something good to say.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I'll be looking forward to your dizzying intellect.

Get some sleep...you're really going to need all the energy you can muster to be angry at me again.

Ego results in downfall. As a Christian, surely you recognize this from the teachings of your idol.

Then again, no Christian is a Christian.

You can paste, but do you comprehend? I doubt it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Though your cheerleading skills are impressive, aTribeCalledSean-san, participate, damnit ! *laughs*

Stop being a spectator. I know you have something good to say.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

but, but, but. Abortion makes my head hurt!

I agree with most of the moderate opinion. Only in cases of rape, incest, and medical complications. However a more readily available birth control option for the populace would really help. I just can't agree with the Church's anti-birth control stance. They don't even support the rythmic method.

Yes, sex is a choice. No, you can't get even close to a majority of kids to stop fucking. Lets be honest, it's going to happen, so lets give them (that's me too!) a better source for birth control. Anyone can buy condoms, but they aren't the most effective method. Birth control pills are available in Free Clinics without prescription (Here in Oregon, and California at least, I'm sure that most southern states haven't passed such laws, though they need it the most.). I say, now this may be radical or liberal, make the pill available at public schools on request to the school nurse. They can't hurt.

whew, like I said, I don't wish to join a theological debate over this, because the christian view, as well as most of the theistic world, is opposed to this, it will simply boil down to the faithful vs. the skeptics.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

It would certainly depend on what we define 'human life' as, wouldn't it?

An embryo can't think, can't make decisions on it's own, can't feel pain, can't BE. It has no consciousness, the soul cannot interact with the physical body yet.

It is alive, but is a group of cells 8 weeks from anything even close to a human, a human? It is a person? Does it have anything, any qualities we identify as being human about it?

No.

It has no brain, it is no person.

So, you know when a soul begins to interract with the human body ?

What does soul interraction have to do with soul designation ?

Do you want to debate science, or theology ? Make up your mind. The two are not synonymous, for the most part.

You don't know that an embryo can't feel pain...and a child is considered an embryo up until the 8th week after conception, at which point the brain is fully formed, as are all other organs of the human body.

You mean to tell me that only after the eighth week does a baby feel pain ? (because only then is it classified as a fetus)

Did you even watch the ultrasound I posted of the child being aborted ? As the suction tube ripped her to shreds, she reared away from it (which would indicate fear and pain) and opened her mouth while violently thrashing. This is what has been termed "The Silent Scream." The heart rate of this baby went from 140 bpm to 200 bpm.

Nope, this isn't a living, human being. It doesn't feel pain. It's just a piece of flesh that is expendable.

Wow...I am so glad you are going to procreate someday, so you can produce more ignorant, thoughtless people like yourself. Won't the world be a better place ?

Or should this advocate abortion ? *sighs*

The pill is not entirely harmless, it should be noted.

It is harmless to most, but there can be complications and harmful side effects.

I think it is vital to it remain a prescribed medication, but I think that it sould become easier to obtain it.

For example, one should not have to receive parental consent to get the pill. Nor should one have to get parental consent to have an abortion, as is the case here in Arizona.

If you have to ask your parents to sign off on an abortion, that's enough to deter most women right away. And instead of taking two pills, they wait a few weeks until it may well be a fetus, and run into a table or have their boyfriend kick them in the stomach, killing the fetus violently.

It's bullshit, and it's preventable. Fuck parental consent on matters such as this. It's the girl who's carrying the baby, she has the say, not mommy and daddy.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Ego results in downfall. As a Christian, surely you recognize this from the teachings of your idol.

Then again, no Christian is a Christian.

You can paste, but do you comprehend? I doubt it.

You are the walking personification of EGO, Rabbi.

It's ok for you, but not for me ? Hypocrite.

My point is if you are going to have such a vehement opinion on the murder of innocent children, know what you are talking about.

This is very typical of a pagan...to throw in our face what we have already acknowledged as our reasoning for needing redemption. SIN. Never said I was perfect, or incapable of sinning. So what ? This proves I am wrong ? I don't think so.

Yeah, I get cocky now and again, and it's usually when stupid people try to convince themselves that they can outsmart me with anger, and no factual data. It's kind of futile.

Paste what, exactly ? Most of what I include is not only hand-typed, but my own thoughts.

What aren't my own words are in quotations, and are referenced.

Would you like to try to discredit me in any other way, so you can sleep better tonight knowing that you support infant genocide ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, you know when a soul begins to interract with the human body ?

Indeed I do.

When the developing child has control over his own body, the soul is in full control of the physical self.

quote:What does soul interraction have to do with soul designation ?

If it's not in the body, it's not a person.

quote:Do you want to debate science, or theology ? Make up your mind. The two are not synonymous, for the most part.

They are quite synonymous, unless you're talking of false, rediculous, and backwards theology...

...like the kind you subscribe to.

[quote]You don't know that an embryo can't feel pain...

Yes we do.

If there's no brain to interpret the signals nerve endings transmit, then the developing child cannot feel pain.

And here I thought you knew it all.

[quote]quote:and a child is considered an embryo up until the 8th week after conception, at which point the brain is fully formed, as are all other organs of the human body.

Yeah, no shit. I don't dispute this at all.

All the more reason to have that abortion early on, isn't it?



quote:You mean to tell me that only after the eighth week does a baby feel pain ? (because only then is it classified as a fetus)

Only after that point is the brain functioning(if it's a healthy baby, that is,) so yes, I do mean to tell you that.

quote:Did you even watch the ultrasound I posted of the child being aborted ? As the suction tube ripped her to shreds, she reared away from it (which would indicate fear and pain) and opened her mouth while violently thrashing. This is what has been termed "The Silent Scream." The heart rate of this baby went from 140 bpm to 200 bpm.

No, I didn't watch it. I will be sure to do after I finish this reply. How far along was the child?

quote:Nope, this isn't a living, human being. It doesn't feel pain. It's just a piece of flesh that is expendable.[/qoute]

In the beginning, yes.

Late term abortions are wrong, and should be restricted. If the child could survive on it's own, it's a human, and should not be killed.

But we're not talking about late-term abortions, though those are the kind you'll UNDOUBTABLY bring up to describe the 'horrors' of abortions.

[quote]Wow...I am so glad you are going to procreate someday, so you can produce more ignorant, thoughtless people like yourself. Won't the world be a better place ?

Not only that, but I'm going to have 8 kids like a wetback.

I guarantee you they won't spend one day in a Christian church, as well. They'll be free to develop their own opinions, but I'll teach them that killing embryos is fine, killing rapists and murderers is the right thing, and that drugs are bad for you.

quote:Or should this advocate abortion ? *sighs*

I had to abort my child the hard way. The mother refused to let her parents know about it, which is required in my state to obtain an abortion.

I know about emotional pain. I know what this can cause.

But I also know that neither of us were ready at all to be parents. I know that I did everything possible as far as the methods of birth control to prevent that pregnancy. I knew that she did not want the child.

Was I wrong in killing it? I don't think so.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

The pill is not entirely harmless, it should be noted.

It is harmless to most, but there can be complications and harmful side effects.

I think it is vital to it remain a prescribed medication, but I think that it sould become easier to obtain it.

For example, one should not have to receive parental consent to get the pill. Nor should one have to get parental consent to have an abortion, as is the case here in Arizona.

If you have to ask your parents to sign off on an abortion, that's enough to deter most women right away. And instead of taking two pills, they wait a few weeks until it may well be a fetus, and run into a table or have their boyfriend kick them in the stomach, killing the fetus violently.

It's bullshit, and it's preventable. Fuck parental consent on matters such as this. It's the girl who's carrying the baby, she has the say, not mommy and daddy.

Yes, because with parental consent, it is alright ! This coming from the same parents that think their children are too stupid to "decide" that they will be abstinent until they are of an age in which they can be responsible for their children, should they become pregnant.

"You're too weak-willed to do what is best for you, so here...take this (insert birth-control method of choice here), and have fun !"

Hmmm...when did we stop being able to control our urges ?

This is why there is so much divorce in this country. People can't keep their pee-pee's in their panty's.

You either choose to subdue your urges (since when are pre-teens and teenagers logical enough to engage in intercourse ?), or you don't.

If you don't, you suffer the consequence, which is usually pregnancy. Then there is the issue of disease. How are you going to "erase" that unsightly little problem ?

You may be able to kill the child into non-existence, but herpes stays with you forever.

But that's cool...they can't control themselves. So let's just tell them that they can't help it, and give them the tools (which they won't use properly, because they ARE teenagers) they need in order to feel "safe" about entertaining their primal instincts.

I, for one, do not believe I am so elementary in thought that I cannot control what I do, if I so choose.

I lost a child because I didn't think. I was young, and thought I knew what was best for me. I didn't stop and say, "You know, another baby right now wouldn't really work out." And I paid the consequence.

But Alora didn't. She will still live a happy fruitful life.

So, I am not saying that mistakes won't/shouldn't/can't happen...I am saying that promoting them by handing out birth control isn't the solution.

How about teaching kids, in the home, that there are consequences, and that they CAN wait ?

Rabbi, you live in AZ ? (off topic) So do I. Not that it matters...just interesting. We actually have ONE thing in common. (wait, two things...I am also a Republican, though not of the "fascist" sort)

Yuor "alternate" forms of abortion just further prove that these people do not have the mental maturity to be having sex in the first place. If they are dumb enough to run into a table to get rid of the child, then they reap what they sow. It's the sad reality of telling kids it's ok to have sex, simply because they can't help it. That is such BS.

Taking away parental control is exactly why we are having this conversation...the control has been taken from parents systematically over the years, and the direct result is children running around in the streets, making more children.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You are the walking personification of EGO, Rabbi.

It's ok for you, but not for me ? Hypocrite.

My morals, my Gods don't tell me that it's bad.

That's why it's ok for me, but not for you.

quote:My point is if you are going to have such a vehement opinion on the murder of innocent children, know what you are talking about.

Shouldn't you be busy educating yourself, then?

Because all I've seen is an ability to paste material from pro-life websites and then try to add on to it.

quote:This is very typical of a pagan...to throw in our face what we have already acknowledged as our reasoning for needing redemption. SIN. Never said I was perfect, or incapable of sinning. So what ? This proves I am wrong ? I don't think so.

No, that certainly does not prove you are wrong.

Logic, and what we know of developing humans in the womb is what proves you are wrong.

You've gotta be a catholic. Yes, we all 'sin,' so that's ok? And here I thought you were supposed to attempt to be like Jesus.

quote:Yeah, I get cocky now and again, and it's usually when stupid people try to convince themselves that they can outsmart me with anger, and no factual data. It's kind of futile.

See any anger in my posts? Any exclamation points?

quote:Paste what, exactly ? Most of what I include is not only hand-typed, but my own thoughts.

What aren't my own words are in quotations, and are referenced.

Would you like to try to discredit me in any other way, so you can sleep better tonight knowing that you support infant genocide ?

I do support 'infant genocide,' though they're hardly infants. I prefer the term 'fetuscide,' and I've already discredited your arguments in previous posts.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And no, masturbating is not taking a life away...

Just like abortion.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

There is a difference between a child that "could be" and a child that "already is".

Yep, a child is a child that already is, a fetus is a "could be" child as you say.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I feel sorry for you that you cannot see the distinction between the two.

You are sorry that I don't see things the way you do?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

By the way:



To say that abortion is ok because it will aid science in producing cures for disease is the same as saying it was ok for Hitler to mutilate people, doing various grotesque scientific experiments on them (euthanasia), for the sake of "purging" the earth of it's origins of disease.

"In Mein Kampf, Hitler states that "anyone who wants to cure this era, which is inwardly sick and rotten, must first of all summon up the courage to make clear the causes of the disease," (Lifton 212). As the cause of the disease, he was referring to Jews, gypsies and all those accused of racial contamination who were supposedly detrimental to the German race. Thus the first stage of the medical experiments which led to the gas chambers at concentration camps, specifically the experiments concerning methods of "euthanasia" (the medicalized killing of those who were a "danger" to society), was directly related to and supposedly justified by Nazi ideology since it purged the German race of its unwanted elements.

At places like Auschwitz the killing was regarded as a means of healing Germany and curing it of the racial disease, thus leading to what has been called the "healing-killing paradox" wherein SS doctors could get around issues of moral and ethical conscience concerning their medicalized killing and experimentation because they equated killing with healing." http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/ib_holocaust2001/Final_Solution/selected _camps/auschwitz_medical_experiments.htm (http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/ib_holocaust2001/Final_Solution/selected_camps/auschwitz_medical_experiments.htm)

SOUND FAMILIAR ?

"Within the context of the struggle to form the perfect Aryan race, the Holocaust was seen by Nazis and many others as a necessary evil, as the victims had been reduced to a subhuman level and thus did not deserve to be treated ethically."

This could be altered into:

"Within the context of the struggle to form a disease free race, stem cell research was seen by scientists and many others as a necessary evil, as the victims had been reduced to a subhuman level and thus did not deserve to be treated ethically."

"It's not a child, it's a choice."

Isn't it a little bit of a stretch to equate Hitler's Holocaust with stem-cell research? The scientists involved in stem-cell research are not trying to cure a "racial disease" (I assume Hiter means the undesirables he targeted, Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, etc.), but diseases that affect all races (such as cancer, Alzheimers), research that would better all of mankind in the future, in my opinion.

Why don't you try supporting your opinions with actual documentation.

Everyone here has an opinion, but no one is giving references...except me.

KILL THE BABIES!

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Well, sorry to tell ya, but life begins at the time of conception.



There is no "moment" of conception. After the sperm enters the egg it's still a full 16-24 hours until it integrates with it.

The line of a person being dead is brain death, so to be consistent the distinguishing line for a person to be considered an independent entity should be brain life.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I'll be looking forward to your dizzying intellect.

Get some sleep...you're really going to need all the energy you can muster to be angry at me again.

Were you talking about me while I was sleeping?

It appears that you are the angry one in this forum. You insult everyone that doesn't share your views. See, I do understand logic and you are commiting a logical fallacy called ad hominem, or "argument against the person", rather than the person's ideas.Resorting to name calling, is that what jesus would do? Somehow my intellect is faulty because I don't fall for the spin you put on facts? That Little article you so eloquently copied and pasted, merely states that stem cells have come from fetuses as well, but it needn't be that way, as I stated in my earlier post stem cells for research come from embryo's discarded from the much lauded in vitro fertilization process. These embryo's would be thrown away, or indefinitely put on ice. Are these poor little embryo souls in limbo then?

I don't see where you got the idea that I support having babies for the soul purpose of stem cell production from. That is not neccesary at all. There are plenty of embryos that exist right now. Don't flatter yourself on making me angry, you haven't. Do you see bold caps, name calling, and exclamation points? To be perfectly honest I would have been through with you had the Rabbi not goaded me into responding.

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because it's opponents do not cease to be insipid." -- Nietzsche

KILL BABIES!

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Why don't you try supporting your opinions with actual documentation.

Everyone here has an opinion, but no one is giving references...except me.



Ok.

Read a little on how a child grows from fertilized egg to fully conscious and functioning human, with pictures, too. Maybe you'll learn something. Hell, it's even a somewhat pro-life website, as well.

http://www.w-cpc.org/fetal.html

Actually, I wasn't talking to you...I was talking to WolfinSheepsClothing.

I'll look at your website, though I am fully aware of the gestational process. I have had three children. If I don't know it by now, I never will.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-14-2004).]

Then I find it particularly disappointing that you continue to insist that life begins at conception.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Isn't it a little bit of a stretch to equate Hitler's Holocaust with stem-cell research? The scientists involved in stem-cell research are not trying to cure a "racial disease" (I assume Hiter means the undesirables he targeted, Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, etc.), but diseases that affect all races (such as cancer, Alzheimers), research that would better all of mankind in the future, in my opinion.



Are you blatantly ignoring the parallel, or are you seriously asking me to expound further ?

I believe an egg becomes a human at the moment of conception.

With this belief, it is reasonable to say that abortions are a form of genocide.

If children are being cultivated in petri dishes, or taken as a result of an abortion, then the parallel is obvious.

Abortionists claim that embryo's are 'subhuman' in the name of science. That was my point. "It's not a child, it's a cell."

If you had read my post carefully, I did not once say that abortion or stem cell research were being done in the name of racial disease.

I compared it to all disease...abortions are justified by the science community based on the desire to enhance human life.

And yes, the groups you mentioned were the "disease" Hitler was referring to, and I did say that in my post.

It is obvious you picked key points out of it, and I recommend that you read the post entirely before responding with uninformed assumptions. (about what I wrote)

I don't think it's a stretch. Hitler murdered men, women and children in the name of science.

Abortion, and stem cell research promotes the murder of innocent unborn children in the name of science.

In both cases, the "victims" are labeled as "subhuman", so that ethics and morals are not an issue.

Seems pretty similar to me.

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

There is no "moment" of conception. After the sperm enters the egg it's still a full 16-24 hours until it integrates with it.

The line of a person being dead is brain death, so to be consistent the distinguishing line for a person to be considered an independent entity should be brain life.

Using Rabbi's own reference: "[b]Conception is the moment at which the sperm penetrates the ovum. Once fertilized it is called a zygote, until it reaches the uterus 3-4 days later." http://www.w-cpc.org/fetal.html

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Are you blatantly ignoring the parallel, or are you seriously asking me to expound further ?

I believe an egg becomes a human at the moment of conception.

With this belief, it is reasonable to say that abortions are a form of genocide.

If children are being cultivated in petri dishes, or taken as a result of an abortion, then the parallel is obvious.

Abortionists claim that embryo's are 'subhuman' in the name of science. That was my point. "It's not a child, it's a cell."

If you had read my post carefully, I did not once say that abortion or stem cell research were being done in the name of racial disease.

I compared it to all disease...abortions are justified by the science community based on the desire to enhance human life.

And yes, the groups you mentioned were the "disease" Hitler was referring to, and I did say that in my post.

It is obvious you picked key points out of it, and I recommend that you read the post entirely before responding with uninformed assumptions. (about what I wrote)

I don't think it's a stretch. Hitler murdered men, women and children in the name of science.

Abortion, and stem cell research promotes the murder of innocent unborn children in the name of science.

In both cases, the "victims" are labeled as "subhuman", so that ethics and morals are not an issue.

Seems pretty similar to me.

Yeah... similar... except that pretty much everyone round the world will agree that those Jews, Homosexuals, ect WERE human, while there is quite a bit of debate on if a fetus is a full human yet.

I agree though, that justifying abortions with science is really missing the whole point.

And I have to admit, a fetus is closer to human then an animal, and that means its a step closer to my worst nightmare:

"ok students, I'm going to draw a name out of the hat, thats who we will be disecting, for the education of the rest of us".

Exactly.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Then I find it particularly disappointing that you continue to insist that life begins at conception.

I am hearing that because of a lack of a brain, a zygote isn't really a human.

So, when someone gets into a car wreck, and becomes a vegetable, but the body continues to live, are you justifying pulling the plug on them, because they are no longer human ?

Stop insulting my intelligence. It is obvious I am intelligent. Just as it is obvious that you are...

My being angry about babies being murdered doesn't mean that Christianity is fallible, or that there is no God.

What an immature comparison.

"So, when someone gets into a car wreck, and becomes a vegetable, but the body continues to live, are you justifying pulling the plug on them, because they are no longer human ?"



I would, and have.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I am hearing that because of a lack of a brain, a zygote isn't really a human.

It is not conscious, it cannot feel pain, it cannot think, it is not a person.

quote:So, when someone gets into a car wreck, and becomes a vegetable, but the body continues to live, are you justifying pulling the plug on them, because they are no longer human ?

I believe that'd be up to their next of kin to decide what to do with that husk of a human...

...just like abortion.

They're not a person. If the brain is dead, they are dead, no matter what machinery we use to keep the blood pumping through them.

The soul cannot control the body any more, just like with Alzheimer's. They are no longer there, and it would only be right to pull the plug on them, and spare the remaining family the anguish. But, I feel it is up to the next of kin.

quote:Stop insulting my intelligence. It is obvious I am intelligent. Just as it is obvious that you are...

My being angry about babies being murdered doesn't mean that Christianity is fallible, or that there is no God.

No, it's everything else that makes Christianty fallible. And there is a God, only he doesn't care about you. He doesn't get involved in anything.

quote:What an immature comparison.

What comparison?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

So, when someone gets into a car wreck, and becomes a vegetable, but the body continues to live, are you justifying pulling the plug on them, because they are no longer human ?

Yes. They're just a piece of meat then.

My friends and I have a pact where if any one of us becomes a vegetable, we'll go to the hospital and pull the plug on them. No sense in keeping an unmanned shell around. Just causes more pain for the family to have to see them like that.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Yeah... similar... except that pretty much everyone round the world will agree that those Jews, Homosexuals, ect WERE human, while there is quite a bit of debate on if a fetus is a full human yet.

I agree though, that justifying abortions with science is really missing the whole point.

And I have to admit, a fetus is closer to human then an animal, and that means its a step closer to my worst nightmare:

"ok students, I'm going to draw a name out of the hat, thats who we will be disecting, for the education of the rest of us".



But by the same token, a woman is a hell of a lot more human then a fetus.

The primary, in fact, only consideration for abortion should be the welfare of the mother.

quote:If someone wants an abortion, or performs abortions, THEY are responsible for their actions, right or wrong. It is THEIR choise.

Wrong idiot.

Don't you think the person dying should have a say in his or her demise? I may not be a woman, but i was a baby once. Face it, they DO INFACT, MURDER THE CHILD. They go out of there way to halt the construction or life of the organism in which they took the responcibility to create.

Sure, when it comes to making it, everyone wants in. But when you have to care for it, people seek a way out.

And for the people who say "what if the girl was raped?". Let me be the first to say how sick i am of hearing that excuse.

First of all, getting raped is a bad situation, filled with emotional trauma, as well as physical pain. Abortion isn't going to undo such tradgety. Abortion can be just as ugly, tramatic, physically and physcologically painful as rape.

Second, two wrongs dont make a right. I don't favor my typing teacher, should i kill him? If the child reminds you of the inncodent, than put him up for adoption. I know this adds to another problem, but I for one would rather ponder who my parents are than Know i was a mistake and murdered for merely being conceived.

Thrice, i Do agree with the gentleman (didn't quite catch his or her name) who thinks abortion is a type of Genocide.

Saddam Hussien, killed people for realms or veiwpoints beyond there control.

Abortion profiteers, kill a child for realms beyond its control, being conceived.

In conclusion, Im almost certian the pro-abortion profiteers will ignore my FACTS and look the other way. JUST BECAUSE YOU IGNORE IT, DOSENT MAKE IT RIGHT.

abortion is murder

quote:Originally posted by Watch This!:

Wrong idiot.

Don't you think the person dying should have a say in his or her demise? I may not be a woman, but i was a baby once. Face it, they DO INFACT, MURDER THE CHILD. They go out of there way to halt the construction or life of the organism in which they took the responcibility to create.

Sure, when it comes to making it, everyone wants in. But when you have to care for it, people seek a way out.

And for the people who say "what if the girl was raped?". Let me be the first to say how sick i am of hearing that excuse.

First of all, getting raped is a bad situation, filled with emotional trauma, as well as physical pain. Abortion isn't going to undo such tradgety. Abortion can be just as ugly, tramatic, physically and physcologically painful as rape.

Second, two wrongs dont make a right. I don't favor my typing teacher, should i kill him? If the child reminds you of the inncodent, than put him up for adoption. I know this adds to another problem, but I for one would rather ponder who my parents are than Know i was a mistake and murdered for merely being conceived.

Thrice, i Do agree with the gentleman (didn't quite catch his or her name) who thinks abortion is a type of Genocide.

Saddam Hussien, killed people for realms or veiwpoints beyond there control.

Abortion profiteers, kill a child for realms beyond its control, being conceived.

In conclusion, Im almost certian the pro-abortion profiteers will ignore my FACTS and look the other way. JUST BECAUSE YOU IGNORE IT, DOSENT MAKE IT RIGHT.

abortion is murder

Lets get this straight, you can't spell incident, yet I'm the idiot?

Give me one shred of proof that an embrio is concious before 12 weeks.

You have NO right to tell a woman what or what not to do with HER body, or whats in it. WOMEN ARE NOT WALKING WOMBS PIG!

Your facts? where are your facts jackarse?

I would rather see a fetus murdered (not that it is murder) then see a teenage girl have her life ruined because of some moronic jackarse like you who couldn't control his urges and raped her.

What would it matter anyway though? women will get abortions, doesn't matter if their illeagal or what right wingers say. Its been done for hundreds of years, it isn't going to stop because of a few bible thumpers.

Do you know what its like to carry a child? it isn't a fucking walk in the park, and if its a teenager, practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined, even if it wasn't their fault. I don't give a shit about a lump of flesh, even if it does have 46 chromosomes (and if it has 47, for fucks sake abort it!), I really, really don't. I care about living, breathing people.

I'm sick of this bullshit, you people don't care about the women, you just care about your little right wing cult, and more people to fill its ranks.

[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-14-2004).]

"I'm sick of this bullshit, you people don't care about the women, you just care about your little right wing cult, and more people to fill its ranks."

Thank bog they don't have a prayer of converting anyone here. The scary thing is how fast fundamentalistism( with an emphasis on mental) is growing amongst the poor and undereducated.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

This is going to get ugly.



Holy shit you're a god damned prophet.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

"I'm sick of this bullshit, you people don't care about the women, you just care about your little right wing cult, and more people to fill its ranks."

Thank bog they don't have a prayer of converting anyone here. The scary thing is how fast fundamentalistism( with an emphasis on mental) is growing amongst the poor and undereducated.

What pisses me off more is that true christianity is actually quite like communism. I don't even know where this nutcase brand came from!

I mean, bloody hell, all you need to do is read about the early church, and it becomes painfully obvious that Christianity has lost its way.

Of course, thats just my opionion, and technically I'm not Christian (stupid Nicean Creed).

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

What pisses me off more is that true christianity is actually quite like communism. I don't even know where this nutcase brand came from!

I mean, bloody hell, all you need to do is read about the early church, and it becomes painfully obvious that Christianity has lost its way.

Of course, thats just my opionion, and technically I'm not Christian (stupid Nicean Creed).

I think it came from Texas.

Ladies and Gentlemen, there are actually SO MANY things wrong with this post, i had to break it up into sections like some kind of guide to error!



quote:Lets get this straight, you can't spell incident, yet I'm the idiot?

oooh, you can't outsmart me so attack me on my incorrect spelling, REAL MATURE. I don't lie awake at night worrying if my posts are spelled correctly.



quote: Give me one shred of proof that a fetus is concious before 12 weeks.

Before i formed you in the womb, i knew you

-GOD

Ejaculate is alive, and it develops into that fetal state before twelve weeks, therefor using common logic the fetus is alive.



quote:You have NO right to tell a woman what or what not to do with HER body, or whats in it. WOMEN ARE NOT WALKING WOMBS PIG!

Where in my post did i said i had the right to do so? And it may be HER body, but its not not her blood spilling. BABIES AREN'T PIGS TO SLAUGHTER AT AN ARROGANT WOMANS CONVIENENCE, YOU PAUMPUS BITCH!

quote:Your facts? where are your facts jackarse?

Conviently located in my post, I'm straight forward with what i say, i do not dress up my words with a suit of arrogance and immature attacks of my spelling thereby causing a feutile attempt to make me seem less credible while changing the subject and not funneling any answers.



quote:I would rather see a fetus murdered (not that it is murder) then see a teenage girl have her life ruined because of some moronic jackarse like you who couldn't control his urges and raped her.

Hmm... Where in my post did i say i raped people? Thats just a further sign of your arrogance, putting words in my mouth i clearly did not speak. And here we go again, back to my original post, that GETTING RAPED WAS A BAD INFLUENCE ON HER LIFE, HAVE HAVING THE CHILD.

Do you not with what i said, that

"BABIES AREN'T PIGS TO SLAUGHTER AT AN WOMANS CONVIENENCE" ?

evedently not, you would Rather have an innocent defenceless child KILLED, than inconvienece yourself with the responcibility of caring for a child you created. Now THATS whats moronic!

quote:What would it matter anyway though? women will get abortions, doesn't matter if their illeagal or what right wingers say.

Wow! just like Murder! Look lady, just because "people are ganna do it anyway", dosent make it right. I'm begining to question your logic, and find it quite confusing on how you belive your convience is more important than an infants life, as you stated above, accept not as ellegantly.

quote: Its been done for hundreds of years, it isn't going to stop because of a few bible thumpers.

What an ARROGANT IMMATURE suggestion to make, that everyone who dissagrees with abortion is a "bible thumper" Thats just not true, once again, i have proven your IGNORANCE and ARROGANCE.

quote: Do you know what its like to carry a child? it isn't a fucking walk in the park, and if its a teenager, practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined,even if it wasn't their fault.

Why it looks like your WRONG AGAIN. Being pregnant didnt stop a girl i know from attentding school? tell me how being pregnant, completealy immobilizes a woman for a period of time so long that

"practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined"

As you stated, women aren't walking wombs, it appears you contridicted your ideal that a woman is not controlled by her vagina.

As you stated "women arent walking wombs", giving me the ideal, that there are more to women than there vagina, which i totally agree.

YET you clearly contridict yourself by saying that there womb can "practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined" I thought women wheren't governed by there wombs? Anyone who's life is ruined by something, is evedently ruled or under power of it!

quote:I don't give a shit about a lump of flesh,

Also knows as, your child



quote: even if it does have 46 chromosomes (and if it has 47, for fucks sake abort it!), I really, really don't.

Here you clearly show your disregaurd for human life, just because a child has 47 chromosomes, it should die. Why? becuase it will be retarded? Indirectly, your telling us to kill all retarded people? Once again, your arrogance destroys the false image that you know what your talking about, and i expose the SCUM you really are.



quote:I care about living, breathing people.I'm sick of this bullshit, you people don't care about the women, you just care about your little right wing cult, and more people to fill its ranks.

Who are you to say i don't care about women? im sure my partner would disagree! If i dont care about women because i dont think they should be allowed to murder, who are you to a child for murdering it!

And yet again, you putting words in my mouth further proves just how daft you are.



[This message has been edited by Watch This! (edited 08-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Watch This!:

Ladies and Gentlemen, there are actually SO MANY things wrong with this post, i had to bread it up into sections like some kind of guide to error!



Who are you to say i don't care about women? im sure my partner would disagree! If i dont care about women because i dont think they should be allowed to murder, who are you to a child for murdering it!

And yet again, you putting words in my mouth further proves just how daft you are.Ejaculate is alive, and it develops into that fetal state before twelve weeks, therefor using common logic the fetus is alive.







Thou said ejaculate. hahahahaha



Swallow some.

[This message has been edited by WolfinSheepsClothing (edited 08-14-2004).]

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Ladies and Gentlemen, there are actually SO MANY things wrong with this post, i had to bread it up into sections like some kind of guide to error!

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Thats nice dear

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oooh, you can't outsmart me so attack me on my incorrect spelling, REAL MATURE. I don't lie awake at night worrying if my posts are spelled correctly.

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Actually, I don't need to outsmart you, you point out your own idiocy for everyone to see.

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Before i formed you in the womb, i knew you

-GOD

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I mean real proof

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Ejaculate is alive, and it develops into that fetal state before twelve weeks, therefor using common logic the fetus is alive.

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Well, then using your logic, if you have ever masturbated, you have murdered millions! Your a modern day Hitler in fact!

Wait, better yet, a Modern Day GOD, Hitler has nothing on you...

I can see how you might have thought I had claimed that an embryo wasn't alive, sorry bout that, but really... If something being alive meant it was wrong to kill it, then I wouldn't eat meat would I?

Its human conciousness that matters.



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Where in my post did i said i had the right to do so? And it may be HER body, but its not not her blood spilling. BABIES AREN'T PIGS TO SLAUGHTER AT AN ARROGANT WOMANS CONVIENENCE, YOU PAUMPUS BITCH!

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Actually, it more or less IS her blood spilling. If it wern't for her blood carrying oxygen, the embryo wouldn't be alive, that isnt to say that her blood is literally in its veins though.

That embryo IS part of her, it is physically conected to her, She breaths for it, she eats for it, she is living for both of them. Genetically, it is half her, half the father, and I do believe that it should be the fathers choise as well, assuming

A: there is no threat to her health from carrying the baby.

B: he is there, and he will support her and the baby.

C: the sex was consentual in the first place.

Finally, is your liver a living person? it can't survive by its self can it? it isn't even an organism, its part of one. Until the embryo can survive by itself, its still part of the mother.



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Conviently located in my post, I'm straight forward with what i say, i do not dress up my words with a suit of arrogance and immature attacks of my spelling thereby causing a feutile attempt to make me seem less credible while changing the subject and not funneling any answers.

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By facts, I meant facts, not the opinion of a moron.

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Hmm... Where in my post did i say i raped people? Thats just a further sign of your arrogance, putting words in my mouth i clearly did not speak. And here we go again, back to my original post, that GETTING RAPED WAS A BAD INFLUENCE ON HER LIFE, HAVE HAVING THE CHILD.

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have having the child? what the fuck does that mean? are you so full of raging religious fervor that your unable to type?

I meant that the rapist was a moron, like you, and also that any man who would agree with forcing a woman to carry a baby unwillingly is no better then a rapist.

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Do you not with what i said, that

"BABIES AREN'T PIGS TO SLAUGHTER AT AN WOMANS CONVIENENCE" ?

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Your right, but embryo's are.

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evedently not, you would Rather have an innocent defenceless child KILLED, than inconvienece yourself with the responcibility of caring for a child you created. Now THATS whats moronic!

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Sorry, but it isn't a child, it isn't even an infant. Its a fucking embryo.

What if it wasn't the woman's will that the child be created? what if some sick fuck stuck his dick in without consent? screw you

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Wow! just like Murder! Look lady, just because "people are ganna do it anyway", dosent make it right. I'm begining to question your logic, and find it quite confusing on how you belive your convience is more important than an infants life, as you stated above, accept not as ellegantly.

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No, thats true, but its been an accepted practice until quite recently.

Of course, the methods were different, surgical proceedures are quite preferable to squatting over a pot of steaming water, or taking herbs, to cause a miscarrage.

It isn't an infant, its an embryo. It isn't an infant until birth.

quote:

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What an ARROGANT IMMATURE suggestion to make, that everyone who dissagrees with abortion is a "bible thumper" Thats just not true, once again, i have proven your IGNORANCE and ARROGANCE.

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Fine then, there are non bible thumpers who think they can dictate to a woman what she can do with her body then.

But the one's I notice are the "Prrrrraaaaaiiiiissseeee the lorrrrrd" guys who blow up family planning clinics.



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Why it looks like your WRONG AGAIN. Being pregnant didnt stop a girl i know from attentding school? tell me how being pregnant, completealy immobilizes a woman for a period of time so long that

"practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined"

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Lets see... social stigma thanks to a culture of sexual repression?

Its funny, because when I was at high school, I can think of two girls who got pregnant and disapeared.

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As you stated, women aren't walking wombs, it appears you contridicted your ideal that a woman is not controlled by her vagina.

As you stated "women arent walking wombs", giving me the ideal, that there are more to women than there vagina, which i totally agree.

YET you clearly contridict yourself by saying that there womb can "practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined" I thought women wheren't governed by there wombs? Anyone who's life is ruined by something, is evedently ruled or under power of it!

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You realize that womb's and vagina's are different things right? because in that part of your post it really looked like you didn't.

You try and concentrate on studies when you have fucking morning sickness, pains, cramps, and swelled up like a bloody balloon. Combined with the the social stigma, and if it was rape, which is what I was mainly refering to in the first place, the emotional trauma is just... you just don't get it do you?



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Also knows as, your child

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So's any sperm that you ejaculate

- by your own logic



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Here you clearly show your disregaurd for human life, just because a child has 47 chromosomes, it should die. Why? becuase it will be retarded? Indirectly, your telling us to kill all retarded people? Once again, your arrogance destroys the false image that you know what your talking about, and i expose the SCUM you really are.

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Idiot. No, I'm not telling you to kill all people with Downs Syndrome. What I'm saying, is to destroy the chance that they would ever become a person with Downs Syndrome



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Who are you to say i don't care about women? im sure my partner would disagree! If i dont care about women because i dont think they should be allowed to murder, who are you to a child for murdering it!

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Hahaha... really... how about this, I get some skum to rape your partner, then we might see what you think about her carrying his child.

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And yet again, you putting words in my mouth further proves just how daft you are.

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I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm making broad, sweeping generalizations as to the nature of people that oppose abortion. Of course, it isn't totally true, very few things are, but don't expect me to be nice to you after you attack me personally.





[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-14-2004).]

I have read through most of the posts, so I will just add my two cents instead of debating.

I think that abortion for the most part should be illegal.

There are a few exceptions:

1.) The delivery of the baby will cause certain death to the mother.

2.) The child would be the result of UNDERAGE rape.

3.) The child would be the result of incest.

Those are the three exceptions for having an abortion, in all other cases abortion should be illegal.

IMO, life doesn't begin exactly at conception, but at the time the fetus begins to grow.

Also, all you people are arguing are semantics and opinions, so really you should all just agree to disagree instead of wasting all this energy, because none of you are going to change anyone's opinion.

I know it was already mentioned, but..

quote:Posted by :Digital_Savior:

If there is an unwanted child on the way, how about not being so damn selfish and recognizing that there are MILLIONS of people on this planet that CANNOT have children, and would love to have YOUR unwanted child ?

There may be millions of couples wanting kids that are not capable of it. However, children are put in foster homes, and orphanages all over.

Why would I have a child, and put it up for adoption? It doesn't mean that it will have a home, just means more children for the system.

Or if I was to raise the kid, assuming the dad would still be around, because I have to care for my mistake. Now, being as I am still young, I would have to change everything and everyone else's life around me. How would I be able to go to school, take care of the child, and have a job to finacially support the child? It's impossible, and it would be even worse if the dad dissapeared.

I'm not for abortions, but they shouldn't be made illegal. My one cousin could have easily been an abortion. His mother was pregnant at the age of 14, but she didn't. He is a cool guy, and it wouldn't be the same without him in my family. However, you have to make choices for yourself. Do you want to forever change your life, or learn from a mistake and don't have it happen again? I don't plan on having kids and I do everything I can so it doesn't happen. But, even having a kid and having it put up for adoption has to change your life. If you are still in school, people remember that. Kids are mean now, and you don't want to have something done that will bring on more teasing.

Edit: added some more things



[This message has been edited by FoodforThought (edited 08-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I have read through most of the posts, so I will just add my two cents instead of debating.

I think that abortion for the most part should be illegal.

There are a few exceptions:

1.) The delivery of the baby will cause certain death to the mother.

2.) The child would be the result of UNDERAGE rape.

3.) The child would be the result of incest.

Those are the three exceptions for having an abortion, in all other cases abortion should be illegal.

IMO, life doesn't begin exactly at conception, but at the time the fetus begins to grow.

Also, all you people are arguing are semantics and opinions, so really you should all just agree to disagree instead of wasting all this energy, because none of you are going to change anyone's opinion.

1) Why just certain? what does certain mean? I would say significant, anything like 20% is far too much. Why risk a woman's life when it isn't necessary?

2) No. I'm not going to argue, just no. any rape.

3) Yes. for certain, I totally agree.

Killing a fetus in any conditions other then those preceeding is certainly wrong.

But an embryo is another matter.

(I couldn't resist - I do realize what you mean, but I don't totally agree.)

[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by FoodforThought:

I know it was already mentioned, but..

There may be millions of couples wanting kids that are not capable of it. However, children are put in foster homes, and orphanages all over.

Why would I have a child, and put it up for adoption? It doesn't mean that it will have a home, just means more children for the system.

Or if I was to raise the kid, assuming the dad would still be around, because I have to care for my mistake. Now, being as I am still young, I would have to change everything and everyone else's life around me. How would I be able to go to school, take care of the child, and have a job to finacially support the child? It's impossible, and it would be even worse if the dad dissapeared.



Couldn't have said it better myself.

Really, as long as there are children waiting for a home, there is absolutely NO need for all these fertility treatments.

I am quite willing to adopt. In fact, it would almost be better then having a child, because I would really be doing something positive, giving an existing person a much, much better life.

As a vhemt supporter (supporter, not a "member") I don't think that it is a good idea for people to be going out of their way to have children, when there are so many here already.



[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-14-2004).]

^^

The problem is though, everyone wants a baby, no one ever seems to want a teenager.

quote:Originally posted by FoodforThought:

^^

The problem is though, everyone wants a baby, no one ever seems to want a teenager.

Screw babies, I wan't one thats toilet trained.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Yea, it's easy after they are potty trained. And kids are still cute and cuddly after they are toilet trained. You just save money on diapers and being woken up at 2 a.m. for a diaper change.

quote:Originally posted by Watch This!:



abortion is murder

What's your point?

I don't mind saying we murder babies. In fact, I come right out and say it, just to shock you backwards imbeciles.

Yes, abortion is murder. So what? That doesn't mean we will, nor should we, stop it.

Dead Babies!

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Dead Babies!

What's red, gurgling, and crawling up your leg?

A homesick abortion!

Man.... Digital_Savior is really going to be pissed at me now. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



Added at edit----

http://www.apocalypsecartoons.com/premiepetey/premiepetey.html

Gees... now people are going to be REALLY pissed at me.

[This message has been edited by dearestnight_falcon (edited 08-14-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

What's red, gurgling, and crawling up your leg?

A homesick abortion!

You're going straight to hell for that one.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

You're going straight to hell for that one.

I know. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote: Thats nice dear

Again with the immature comments? Your failure to cease with the constant immaturity ammuses no one, it just further proves my point that you have a selfish personallity.

quote: Actually, I don't need to outsmart you, you point out your own idiocy for everyone to see.

Hm... thats just taking what I said but it's not as elabrate, once again, immaturity is not the issue, please stick with the task at hand.

quote: I mean real proof

Whether you belive it or not, the bible is real.

quote: Well, then using your logic, if you have ever masturbated, you have murdered millions! Your a modern day Hitler in fact!

Wait, better yet, a Modern Day GOD, Hitler has nothing on you...

Wrong again! First of all, I never said masturbation was right, it is also a sin. Once again, putting words in my mouth and making blind accusations and presumtions.

When you create another being of life, which could later become cabable of emotions, and destroy it becuase it inconviences you is wrong lady, just face it.

Modern day GOD, eh? I thought you didnt belive in GOD? You yourself needed "real proof", and if you don't belive scripture, than how can you belive god?

And you want to talk about hitler? let's try this again.

Adolph Hitler: slaughtered millions of innocent people for reasons beyond there control.

You: Allot the slaughter of millions of innocent babies for reasons beyond there controll.

You walked right into that one.

quote: I can see how you might have thought I had claimed that an embryo wasn't alive, sorry bout that, but really... If something being alive meant it was wrong to kill it, then I wouldn't eat meat would I?

Its human conciousness that matters.

I actually almost THREW UP after reading that, how could you possibly compare killing a baby to eating meat? Sadly, i must entertain your sadistic veiws and prove them wrong YET AGAIN (this is getting to easy). How could you possibly view an animals life EQUAL to a human being?! Thats what your doing, unless you eat people? Your feutile attemps of proving anything are sickening. Do you even have a conciouse?



quote: Actually, it more or less IS her blood spilling. If it wern't for her blood carrying oxygen, the embryo wouldn't be alive, that isnt to say that her blood is literally in its veins though.

By blood being spilt,i was refering to murder, not science dingbat.

quote: That embryo IS part of her, it is physically conected to her, She breaths for it, she eats for it, she is living for both of them.

Very true, this is the only thing you've said that isnt totally pig headed or arrogant, and actually sheds some FACT onto this conversation on your part. But heres where we seem to disagree. Altho they share body physically, does that mean they share a soul? One day (hopefully) that child will seperate from its mother and take on a life of its own, you cannot deny that, and you are preventing that. Who are you to say who lives and who dies?



Genetically, it is half her, half the father, and I do believe that it should be the fathers choise as well,

I thought you said it was the womans choice? I navigated my way through loads of your Bullshit, and half your argument was "its a womans choice" and "its her body"

Now here, you go back on what you said, Someone outside that woman getting the abortion, is governing whether to have it or not, totally going back on your prior argument that "its her body"

ONCE again , i prove you wrong, im yet to see you do this to me. this is the second or third time i do belive? And shortly afterwards, you attack my personally or my grammar as some sort of retaliatoin to make yourself feel better.





quote: A: there is no threat to her health from carrying the baby.

Abortion hurts women in some cases



quote: Finally, is your liver a living person? it can't survive by its self can it? it isn't even an organism, its part of one. Until the embryo can survive by itself, its still part of the mother.

But Will a liver one day grow to lead a life of its own? It ant survive by itself, no, but neither can an infant bird, but there very much organisms. A Human, is a Human, no matter what stage.



quote: By facts, I meant facts, not the opinion of a moron.

Didn't i go over this earlier in my post? That everytime i prove you wrong you attack me personally? Well you cannot deny it now, its clear as day you did so. And i take the opinion of a moron (not that i am agreeing with you on the terms i am) on the issue of morality rather than Some NUT JOB FEMMINIST who applauds the murder of CHILDREN.

now thats just plain logic

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Hmm... Where in my post did i say i raped people? Thats just a further sign of your arrogance, putting words in my mouth i clearly did not speak. And here we go again, back to my original post, that GETTING RAPED WAS A BAD INFLUENCE ON HER LIFE, HAVE HAVING THE CHILD.

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quote: have having the child? what the fuck does that mean? are you so full of raging religious fervor that your unable to type?

No, i missed the word "not", instead of have, Are you so full of your own paumpus views that you can't think with that THICK head of yours and fill in the blanks? guess not.

And ONCE AGAIN, refer to what i posted earlier, This is you attacking my spelling rather than sticking with the issue on any means when your proven wrong. Contrairy to what you may belive , this isn't a fucking spelling bee.



quote:I meant that the rapist was a moron, like you, and also that any man who would agree with forcing a woman to carry a baby unwillingly is no better then a rapist.

So your saying Anyone who dosen't condone the murder of an innocent child is no better than someone who lurks in perversion and forces someone to do sexual favors unwillingly? I again question your logic.

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Do you not with what i said, that

"BABIES AREN'T PIGS TO SLAUGHTER AT AN WOMANS CONVIENENCE" ?

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quote: Your right, but embryo's are.

Thats where we disagree, an embryo is just a premature baby. I belive that a childs life begins at conception.

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evedently not, you would Rather have an innocent defenceless child KILLED, than inconvienece yourself with the responcibility of caring for a child you created. Now THATS whats moronic!

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quote: Sorry, but it isn't a child, it isn't even an infant. Its a fucking embryo.

Are you so full of raging idiocy that you cannot put two and two together?

Can't you see that in DESTROYING THE EMBRYO, you are "having an innocent defenceless child KILLED, than inconvienece yourself with the responcibility of caring for a child you created."

Wheather the embryo is alive or not, you bring it upon yourself to choose if that child lives or dies.

{QUOTE] What if it wasn't the woman's will that the child be created? what if some sick fuck stuck his dick in without consent? screw you



So are you going to let TWO people suffer? Are you ganna let that "sick fuck" govern your life, AND kill your child? God have mercy on you, for you are WEAK.

And again with the attacking me personally, 3 times is it?

quote: No, thats true,

we agree, woot!

{QUOTE] but its been an accepted practice until quite recently.

we disagree, Abortion was never accepted socially, are you MAD? This proves to me your talking out of your ass. Such a prosedure was never ACCEPTED. That is Libel.

quote: Of course, the methods were different, surgical proceedures are quite preferable to squatting over a pot of steaming water, or taking herbs, to cause a miscarrage.

your point..............?

quote:It isn't an infant, its an embryo. It isn't an infant until birth.

But your killing the infant, your PREVENTING IT from being born, therefor, your preventing the infants life, a.k.a., killing it. Are you saying if i take a handful of robin eggs and bash them off the ground, im not hurting anyone? You sicken me.



what i said:

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What an ARROGANT IMMATURE suggestion to make, that everyone who dissagrees with abortion is a "bible thumper" Thats just not true, once again, i have proven your IGNORANCE and ARROGANCE.

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quote:Fine then, there are non bible thumpers who think they can dictate to a woman what she can do with her body then.

You seem to allot it earlier in the post?



quote:But the one's I notice are the "Prrrrraaaaaiiiiissseeee the lorrrrrd" guys who blow up family planning clinics.

And i belive lefty oddjobs like you are seen freeing animals from zoo's and taking my guns away. And don't say " I never said that, your putting words in my mouth!" Like you arrogantly would. I said People LIKE you, i never said you. HAH, i have proven you wrong before you have even spoken.

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Why it looks like your WRONG AGAIN. Being pregnant didnt stop a girl i know from attentding school? tell me how being pregnant, completealy immobilizes a woman for a period of time so long that

"practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined"

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quote:Lets see... social stigma thanks to a culture of sexual repression?

thats why theres a porn shop on every corner....

quote: Its funny, because when I was at high school, I can think of two girls who got pregnant and disapeared.

............?

whats your point? you didnt prove me wrong? You stated earlier that a woman is immobilized when pregnant and must give up all hope, and i gave you an instance contradicting yourself. You haven't proven , or even pointed out anything?



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As you stated, women aren't walking wombs, it appears you contridicted your ideal that a woman is not controlled by her vagina.

As you stated "women arent walking wombs", giving me the ideal, that there are more to women than there vagina, which i totally agree.

YET you clearly contridict yourself by saying that there womb can "practically any chance of them getting anywhere in life is ruined" I thought women wheren't governed by there wombs? Anyone who's life is ruined by something, is evedently ruled or under power of it!

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[UOTE] You realize that womb's and vagina's are different things right? because in that part of your post it really looked like you didn't.

Funny, everyone else got my point.

quote:You try and concentrate on studies when you have fucking morning sickness, pains, cramps, and swelled up like a bloody balloon. Combined with the the social stigma, and if it was rape, which is what I was mainly refering to in the first place, the emotional trauma is just... you just don't get it do you?[QUOTE]

Well, how long are you incarserated for? Those sympoms dont kick in until later in the pregnancy, and even if they started at conception. YOUR ONLY OUT 9 MONTHS LADY.

not even 1 school year, if you really want to, you can catch up.



I dont get it? your the one contridicting yourself left and right, talking in circles, and flat out writing facts that just ARENT TRUE. (i mainly refer to you saying abortion was accepted at a time.)

your the one that dosent get it.



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Also knows as, your child

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[QUOTE]So's any sperm that you ejaculate

- by your own logic

Now thats taken completely out of context, may i remind you what was really said?

"You:I don't give a shit about a lump of flesh,

me: Also known as, your child"

Don't try to manipulate my words and change what was really said, you just can't win,i have all the facts. your contridicting yourself, im yet to be proven wrong by you.

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Here you clearly show your disregaurd for human life, just because a child has 47 chromosomes, it should die. Why? becuase it will be retarded? Indirectly, your telling us to kill all retarded people? Once again, your arrogance destroys the false image that you know what your talking about, and i expose the SCUM you really are.

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quote:Idiot. No, I'm not telling you to kill all people with Downs Syndrome. What I'm saying, is to destroy the chance that they would ever become a person with Downs Syndrome

There you are, YET AGAIN! proven wrong, so you attack me personally. And trying to change what you said. may i remind you?

you: (and if it has 47, for fucks sake abort it!),

And who the died and made you god? What gives you the right to KILL a child that you created. And you cannot change what you already said, so dont try it.



quote: Hahaha... really... how about -

this, I get some skum to rape your partner, then we might see what you think about her carrying his child.

You have a sick mind, yet i must ammuse your ideal by proving it wrong. First of all, you don't know my partner or I, we dont associate ourselfs with people like you. We already discussed that we would carry the child if such an occasion happened.

WOW! proved wrong AGAIN! your on a roll!

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And yet again, you putting words in my mouth further proves just how daft you are.

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quote:I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm making broad, sweeping generalizations as to the nature of people that oppose abortion.

Your tellin half truths and whole lies, making sweeping generalizations and suggesting i said things or think things which i clearly didnt , is , in retro spect, PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

And even it there where a difference, it's a result of ingorance on your part, you cannot deny that.

quote: Of course, it isn't totally true, very few things are, but don't expect me to be nice to you after you attack me personally.

contridicting yourself in the next sentence?

"this isnt totatally true, very few things are?"

And i think weve all seen after today who's attacking whom personally.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Watch This!:

OMG Digital savior has a new user name.

If we have the power to create new lives, why is it wrong for us to exercise the full scale of that power and take lives before they are separate?

Quick thought for you: You each have your morals, they work for you because it's your life that YOUR morals apply to. Other people live different lives, and their morals work for their lives. Accept that people are going to disagree with you who will never change their minds; respect the basic foundation of humanity: thought. Let people think for themselves and come to their own morals. If what they do is wrong, they'll suffer the consequences, there is no reason to bring courts into an issue so cloudy as to disallow any accurate judgements.

I'm too lazy right now to read all of the posts, so if someone has already made this statement, i apologise.

Biology says that the cell is smallest living thing. It also says after the egg is fertilized and the cell splits, the only thing that it can become is the species of the parents. Therefore, when it is a human embryo, it can only be a human life.

Abortion is killing a human embryo, thus killing a human life.

Our law says that it is illegal to (purposly) take a human life.

God's law says it is "illegal" to take a human life.

Abortion is murder.

Legalized abortion is a human way to justify our own actions to make ourselves feel less guilty or guilt free.

What's funner than dead babies?

NOTHING!!!

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Abortion is killing a human embryo, thus killing a human life.

That's what in debate.

An embryo is nothing more than human cells. Does that mean I'm a murderer if I scratch? I could actually be "killing" more living cells by scratching, than by "killing" an embryo!

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

That's what in debate.

An embryo is nothing more than human cells. Does that mean I'm a murderer if I scratch? I could actually be "killing" more living cells by scratching, than by "killing" an embryo!



Scrape off some skin cells, put it in an incubator for premees (without manipulating the cells like cloaning) and see if it grows into something that can have "mental masturbation"

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Are you blatantly ignoring the parallel, or are you seriously asking me to expound further ?

I believe an egg becomes a human at the moment of conception.

With this belief, it is reasonable to say that abortions are a form of genocide.

If children are being cultivated in petri dishes, or taken as a result of an abortion, then the parallel is obvious.

Abortionists claim that embryo's are 'subhuman' in the name of science. That was my point. "It's not a child, it's a cell."

If you had read my post carefully, I did not once say that abortion or stem cell research were being done in the name of racial disease.

I compared it to all disease...abortions are justified by the science community based on the desire to enhance human life.

And yes, the groups you mentioned were the "disease" Hitler was referring to, and I did say that in my post.

It is obvious you picked key points out of it, and I recommend that you read the post entirely before responding with uninformed assumptions. (about what I wrote)

I don't think it's a stretch. Hitler murdered men, women and children in the name of science.

Abortion, and stem cell research promotes the murder of innocent unborn children in the name of science.

In both cases, the "victims" are labeled as "subhuman", so that ethics and morals are not an issue.

Seems pretty similar to me.

Here's all the evidence you need that stem-cell research is just, good, totally holy and offically smiled upon by God:

Me, in my school newspaper two years ago, speaking out in support of stem-cell research. Prepare to be convinced:

<A HREF="http://tinypic.com/25p3t">http://tinypic.com/25p3t" width="90" height="90 (http://tinypic.com/25p3t" width="90" height="90)</A>

That should put the arguement to rest. Just trying to lighten the situation.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Scrape off some skin cells, put it in an incubator for premees (without manipulating the cells like cloaning) and see if it grows into something that can have "mental masturbation"



How nice, why did you feel the need to limit my possible answers?

That's like me saying, 'take an embryo and put it in an oven at 300 degrees, don't manipulate it in anyway, and see if anything grows'... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The question still remains:

Am I a murderer if I scratch? I could be "killing" the same amount, if not more, living cells than if I were to "kill" an embryo...



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 08-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Here's all the evidence you need that stem-cell research is just, good, totally holy and offically smiled upon by God:

Me, in my school newspaper two years ago, speaking out in support of stem-cell research. Prepare to be convinced:

&lt;A HREF="http://tinypic.com/25p3t"&gt; <A HREF="http://tinypic.com/25p3t">http://tinypic.com/25p3t" width="90" height="90 (http://tinypic.com/25p3t" width="90" height="90)</A> &lt;/A&gt;

That should put the arguement to rest. Just trying to lighten the situation.

I am Con-Vinced!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

[B]I'm too lazy read all of the posts.



That's because you are an absolute moron in desperate need of re-education.If you weren't such a fucking uninformed douchebag I would refute every point you try to make, but since you are not, I won't.( you wouldn't understand it.)

"God's law says it is "illegal" to take a human life."

Read your book.

Faggot.

Watch This!, your abusive attitude will get you nowhere, no matter how right you think you are. Calling people idiots, and then giving them a lecture isn't going to get your point across. It just makes you look like a crazy pro-lifer.

I can see where you're coming from, but the Supreme Court doesn't agree with you, so abortion is here to stay, and honestly, I don't think it's going to be illegal anytime soon. So let's be a little more tolerant of other people's views, hmmm?