How many wars and deaths are a cause of religious beliefs?

I dont know where to start...

Oh damn, where to begin...

*Yells into back room* Eh, Johnny, we've got another one!

Okay, my poor misguided fool, I will inform you as to why the masses need religion.

In the bad conditions of third world countries people try to keep their hopes up in wishful thinking that things will be better and there is a god. Quantity wise; They seem to suffer a lot less when they believe they will be saved for a long time then give up hope and either give up or join a group who tries to make changes.

For us western folk; The next generation already doesn't believe any religions and we have little 'gangstas', wiggers, punks, 4n4rchy prats, goths (the wannabe ones), and the list continues. They seem to turn out that way from a lack of true religion and no fear of a god who will cause them harm later on in the future.

As a whole; humans need art, philosophy, music, and other ways of expressing their humanity. One of the most powerful ways is through religion. Though the modern teaching are not exactly wholesome, and the past is riddled with wars and executions, the majority seems to prefer it.

The real question is: How are YOU going to stop religion?

how many people have died because of athiesm?

quote:Originally posted by artificial:

How many wars and deaths are a cause of religious beliefs?

I dont know where to start...

The easyest way to start is with the halocaust. Five million some odd poeple most of whom would have lived alot longer if it were not for there relious beliefs. That is the only easy one. There are still alot of non-statistic hate killings. You can add in all the missionarys who disapear. Next figure out how many reliogous leaders are exicuted in China and other countries. This is no easy task because either non records are kept or nobody is allowed to see them.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

how many people have died because of athiesm?

Name some.

Religion is an invention of man, that's here to comfort us while we're alive. Because I won't give a shit about religion when I'm dead.

Social Junker, being a Christian, our viewpoints are obviously very different. You mention how religion won't matter to you when you die, that's true in your viewpoint because you believe that there is nothing after death. But consider this, seriously open your mind for one second and consider this. What if what the Christians believe is actually true? What if? If it were true, the belief that there is heaven is hell, wouldn't you be simply screwed? Now, I understand the atheists in this forum (90% I believe), will simply disregard this post as another Christian's "mythical" belief but tell me, have you ever even considered that Christian teachings are true?? I know that in your mind, you will think that there is not enough proof, or that Christianity is a myth, or that religion is for fools and the weak-minded but putting ALL of those aside, consider it. I know for a fact that atheists think of Christians as closed-minded neanderthal puritans but if you think about it, atheists are also very closed-minded to their own beliefs such that they will NEVER, for any reason, accept Christianity. Now, I often do consider the theories of atheists but ultimately, some passage in the bible "disproves" it. I believe in the bible, I believe that is the one truth.

I understand that my "preaching" is ultimately futile but I just wanted to say that.

EDIT: In short, we believe what we want to believe.

[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Name some.

communist countries like China and Russia killed/kill religious people in order to have an atheist society.

And, to extend Zman's point, many Christian tribes in Africa(and elsewhere) are being killed by Muslim radicals in search of religious cleansing.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

The easyest way to start is with the halocaust. Five million some odd poeple most of whom would have lived alot longer if it were not for there relious beliefs. That is the only easy one. There are still alot of non-statistic hate killings. You can add in all the missionarys who disapear. Next figure out how many reliogous leaders are exicuted in China and other countries. This is no easy task because either non records are kept or nobody is allowed to see them.

Thats bullshit about the holocaust, it wasn't because that they were Jews by religion, it was because they were Jews by race.

Hitler was trying to blame "lesser" races for all of Germany's problems, it had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

quote:Originally posted by micho:

Social Junker, being a Christian, our viewpoints are obviously very different. You mention how religion won't matter to you when you die, that's true in your viewpoint because you believe that there is nothing after death. But consider this, seriously open your mind for one second and consider this. What if what the Christians believe is actually true? What if? If it were true, the belief that there is heaven is hell, wouldn't you be simply screwed? Now, I understand the atheists in this forum (90% I believe), will simply disregard this post as another Christian's "mythical" belief but tell me, have you ever even considered that Christian teachings are true?? I know that in your mind, you will think that there is not enough proof, or that Christianity is a myth, or that religion is for fools and the weak-minded but putting ALL of those aside, consider it. I know for a fact that atheists think of Christians as closed-minded neanderthal puritans but if you think about it, atheists are also very closed-minded to their own beliefs such that they will NEVER, for any reason, accept Christianity. Now, I often do consider the theories of atheists but ultimately, some passage in the bible "disproves" it. I believe in the bible, I believe that is the one truth.

I understand that my "preaching" is ultimately futile but I just wanted to say that.

EDIT: In short, we believe what we want to believe.

[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]

Very true, we believe what we want to believe. I used to be atheist, until I discovered Buddhism. In Buddhism, nothing about my current personality will survive death, my energy will be recycled, but my personality will die.

I do not fear Hell (I used to be Christian), because the idea is just so laughable to me after my near-death experience.

When I was a little kid, my dad was Buddhist, I was Christian, and I asked him if he was scared if Christianity was true and about going to hell. He said, " No, don't worry, you'll figure it out someday". And I did.

quote:Originally posted by micho:

Social Junker, being a Christian, our viewpoints are obviously very different. You mention how religion won't matter to you when you die, that's true in your viewpoint because you believe that there is nothing after death. But consider this, seriously open your mind for one second and consider this. What if what the Christians believe is actually true? What if? If it were true, the belief that there is heaven is hell, wouldn't you be simply screwed? Now, I understand the atheists in this forum (90% I believe), will simply disregard this post as another Christian's "mythical" belief but tell me, have you ever even considered that Christian teachings are true?? I know that in your mind, you will think that there is not enough proof, or that Christianity is a myth, or that religion is for fools and the weak-minded but putting ALL of those aside, consider it. I know for a fact that atheists think of Christians as closed-minded neanderthal puritans but if you think about it, atheists are also very closed-minded to their own beliefs such that they will NEVER, for any reason, accept Christianity. Now, I often do consider the theories of atheists but ultimately, some passage in the bible "disproves" it. I believe in the bible, I believe that is the one truth.

I understand that my "preaching" is ultimately futile but I just wanted to say that.

EDIT: In short, we believe what we want to believe.

[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]

I'll answer (because I assume your post was addressed to all a-theists [by which I mean those who don't believe in religion]) that. Even if (and I really can't believe this) God exists, I won't be screwed when I die. Want to know why? Because I live by the number one rule: my right to swing my fists ends where your body begins. And as long as I follow that rule, I'm pretty much in the clear for all the religions. Every other rule or limitation or practice that religion tries to espouse is extra.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

communist countries like China and Russia killed/kill religious people in order to have an atheist society.

Yeah, but that's what you get when you have a communist regime that happens to value an atheist worldview.

If they were satanists, that would become the national religion.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Thats bullshit about the holocaust, it wasn't because that they were Jews by religion, it was because they were Jews by race.

Hitler was trying to blame "lesser" races for all of Germany's problems, it had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Religion what what created the race of the Jews.

One thing is for sure. There would be less or no tention in the middle east if there were no religious differences.

That can also be said for most of Africa, Ireland and the balkans.



[This message has been edited by artificial (edited 08-12-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:

Yeah, but that's what you get when you have a communist regime that happens to value an atheist worldview.

If they were satanists, that would become the national religion.

this is the same as when you have an Islamic or a Christian regime killing.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

I'll answer (because I assume your post was addressed to all a-theists [by which I mean those who don't believe in religion]) that. Even if (and I really can't believe this) God exists, I won't be screwed when I die. Want to know why? Because I live by the number one rule: my right to swing my fists ends where your body begins. And as long as I follow that rule, I'm pretty much in the clear for all the religions. Every other rule or limitation or practice that religion tries to espouse is extra.



I'm not sure that I understand your reply. Anyways, if, in your perspective, Christianity is really true and all its teachings are true, then according to the Bible, you would be sent to hell. So, could you please further explain your stance?

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

this is the same as when you have an Islamic or a Christian regime killing.

I think Magneto's point was that blaming murders on religions or a lack of it is retarded; they kill because they're fucked up, not because of their religious affiliations (those are just an excuse).

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

how many people have died because of athiesm?

A better question might be: How many athiests/and or people of the "wrong religion" were murdered by theists?

Entire civilizations.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

A better question might be: How many athiests/and or people of the "wrong religion" were murdered by theists?

Entire civilizations.

True, the Aztecs, and the Crusades. But I agree, these were completely wrong acts of violence. The people at that time thought that this was just and that they were doing it for God. But then again, God killed entire tribes in the Bible because they rejected him.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

how many people have died because of athiesm?

None, nobody died because of a group of power trying to soley impose athiesm on them. Don't say russia, because athiesm is an aspect of communism, not the driving force.

However many were killed in the crusades and the spanish inquisition to name a few. Charlegmane did the same thing in France. That was done soley for the reason of imposing religion on people.

quote:Originally posted by micho:

Social Junker, being a Christian, our viewpoints are obviously very different. You mention how religion won't matter to you when you die, that's true in your viewpoint because you believe that there is nothing after death. But consider this, seriously open your mind for one second and consider this. What if what the Christians believe is actually true? What if? If it were true, the belief that there is heaven is hell, wouldn't you be simply screwed? Now, I understand the atheists in this forum (90% I believe), will simply disregard this post as another Christian's "mythical" belief but tell me, have you ever even considered that Christian teachings are true?? I know that in your mind, you will think that there is not enough proof, or that Christianity is a myth, or that religion is for fools and the weak-minded but putting ALL of those aside, consider it. I know for a fact that atheists think of Christians as closed-minded neanderthal puritans but if you think about it, atheists are also very closed-minded to their own beliefs such that they will NEVER, for any reason, accept Christianity. Now, I often do consider the theories of atheists but ultimately, some passage in the bible "disproves" it. I believe in the bible, I believe that is the one truth.

I understand that my "preaching" is ultimately futile but I just wanted to say that.

EDIT: In short, we believe what we want to believe.

[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]

#1. Social Junker is my white buddhist homey, not an athiest.

#2. Your touching upon Pascals wager. Which basically says you might as well be christian, because if they are right, then you get to go to heaven. If they are wrong, then you don't lose anything.

#3. I have never been a fan of aforementioned thought process, because it is intended to persuade a non-believer through fear. It also means that their faith would be through insincere means.

#4. Not all athiests feel so strongly towards christians. I am not an athiest, but I am not christian by any means, but I have alot of respect for progressive christians, those trying to help others. However I am not a fan of hardcore, fundamentalist, "once-saved-always-saved" type christians. They tend to be more closed minded than athiests and use fear tactics in evangelization.

#5. The kettle called the pot black. Think about the average christians views on athiests, they think that they are misguided, ignorant to god, and worst of all DAMNED TO AN ETERNAL HELL-FIRE. So think about how that makes your average non-believer feel. They think, "hey, these people are telling me that I will suffer forever, why should I listen to such judgemental, violent people?"

#6. I'm done for now.

quote:Originally posted by micho:

True, the Aztecs, and the Crusades. But I agree, these were completely wrong acts of violence. The people at that time thought that this was just and that they were doing it for God. But then again, God killed entire tribes in the Bible because they rejected him.



Good point. Way to support my theory that if God does exist, he surely can't be called "all loving" or omnibenevolent by any means.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

#1. Social Junker is my white buddhist homey, not an athiest.

#2. Your touching upon Pascals wager. Which basically says you might as well be christian, because if they are right, then you get to go to heaven. If they are wrong, then you don't lose anything.

#3. I have never been a fan of aforementioned thought process, because it is intended to persuade a non-believer through fear. It also means that their faith would be through insincere means.

#4. Not all athiests feel so strongly towards christians. I am not an athiest, but I am not christian by any means, but I have alot of respect for progressive christians, those trying to help others. However I am not a fan of hardcore, fundamentalist, "once-saved-always-saved" type christians. They tend to be more closed minded than athiests and use fear tactics in evangelization.

#5. The kettle called the pot black. Think about the average christians views on athiests, they think that they are misguided, ignorant to god, and worst of all DAMNED TO AN ETERNAL HELL-FIRE. So think about how that makes your average non-believer feel. They think, "hey, these people are telling me that I will suffer forever, why should I listen to such judgemental, violent people?"

#6. I'm done for now.





#1 Oops, sorry Social Junker! (hahaha as if atheism is an insult)

#2 I'm sorry but I don't believe in Pascal's wager, I'm not a "might as well be" type of Christian, I believe what I believe and I believe it with ALL of my heart.

#3 I don't know what you are quoting. Sorry

#4 Could you please explain fear tactics? And also, I... hmm.. I don't believe in once-saved-always-saved I believe that we should live our life by days not by eternities. If were to evangelize, I would first give my living testimony which is basically a story about my life and how my faith has changed it. Then, I would explain the bible, what it means to be "Christian", and then how to get saved. After that, it is completely their decision to choose to believe or not to believe.

#5 What you say is completely true, I believe that atheists are misguided and that if they choose not to believe, they will ultimately go to hell. But you know what? That just makes me want to evangelize more. I don't want you to go to hell so I will try my best as a Christian to help you get saved. So I hope that makes me sound a lot less "violent and closed minded".

#6 Sorry to Social Junker and thanks for clearing that up for me! Sam Tribe.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



Good point. Way to support my theory that if God does exist, he surely can't be called "all loving" or omnibenevolent by any means.



God is God. My God is a just God. The tribes openly rejected him even when His arms were wide open all the time. Maybe you have heard of the story of Noah's Ark, but maybe you haven't. Basically, God was dissapointed that much of his people had swayed from his teachings so he commanded Noah to build a large ark because, He told him, it was going to rain for a LOOOOOOOOOONGG time and that it would flood the entire earth. God told Noah to tell the people("non-believers") to get on the boat before the rain came. Noah pleaded them to get on but they SIMPLY rejected him and thought that he was a fool. Then Noah got animals and the rain came and only his family survived on that boat. So, as you can see, it was completely the tribe's choices that led to their destruction.

EDIT: Missed something in the story

[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by micho:

#2 I'm sorry but I don't believe in Pascal's wager, I'm not a "might as well be" type of Christian, I believe what I believe and I believe it with ALL of my heart.

Pascal's Sucker Bet (http://www.jhuger.com/pascal.mv)

quote:Originally posted by micho:

Social Junker, being a Christian, our viewpoints are obviously very different. You mention how religion won't matter to you when you die, that's true in your viewpoint because you believe that there is nothing after death. But consider this, seriously open your mind for one second and consider this. What if what the Christians believe is actually true? What if? If it were true, the belief that there is heaven is hell, wouldn't you be simply screwed? Now, I understand the atheists in this forum (90% I believe), will simply disregard this post as another Christian's "mythical" belief but tell me, have you ever even considered that Christian teachings are true?? I know that in your mind, you will think that there is not enough proof, or that Christianity is a myth, or that religion is for fools and the weak-minded but putting ALL of those aside, consider it. I know for a fact that atheists think of Christians as closed-minded neanderthal puritans but if you think about it, atheists are also very closed-minded to their own beliefs such that they will NEVER, for any reason, accept Christianity. Now, I often do consider the theories of atheists but ultimately, some passage in the bible "disproves" it. I believe in the bible, I believe that is the one truth.

I understand that my "preaching" is ultimately futile but I just wanted to say that.

EDIT: In short, we believe what we want to believe.

[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]

Umm, you are wrong. You are steriotyping atheists. I used to be Christian, born and raised. I seriously tried my hardest to believe (yes I had to make an effort) it didn't just seem right and click in. For a while it worked, I went to church etc... but I always found myself contradicting my own "beliefs". The last time I went to church and the last time I made an attempt at bringing back my christianity was a few months ago. All I could think about during mass was how wrong the priest was and how blindly everyone was following him. Also I didn't feel like I belonged at all.

quote:Originally posted by micho:

God is God. My God is a just God. The tribes openly rejected him even when His arms were wide open all the time. Maybe you have heard of the story of Noah's Ark, but maybe you haven't. Basically, God was dissapointed that much of his people had swayed from his teachings so he commanded Noah to build a large ark because, He told him, it was going to rain for a LOOOOOOOOOONGG time and that it would flood the entire earth. God told Noah to tell the people("non-believers") to get on the boat before the rain came. Noah pleaded them to get on but they SIMPLY rejected him and thought that he was a fool. Then Noah got animals and the rain came and only his family survived on that boat. So, as you can see, it was completely the tribe's choices that led to their destruction.

EDIT: Missed something in the story

[This message has been edited by micho (edited 08-12-2004).]



I've always wondered where the remains of such a large boat are. I mean, think of every animal in the world today, this boat had to carry 2 of every animal, It would be humungous. I just figured that we'd find some remains of such a boat.

Another question, what is the christian view of dinosaurs and the ice age?

quote:Originally posted by Rattrap51:

Umm, you are wrong. You are steriotyping atheists. I used to be Christian, born and raised. I seriously tried my hardest to believe (yes I had to make an effort) it didn't just seem right and click in. For a while it worked, I went to church etc... but I always found myself contradicting my own "beliefs". The last time I went to church and the last time I made an attempt at bringing back my christianity was a few months ago. All I could think about during mass was how wrong the priest was and how blindly everyone was following him. Also I didn't feel like I belonged at all.



I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know what to say frankly except I'm glad that you at least made the effort. =/



Addressing aTribeCalledSean:

They actually have found remains of what might be the ark somewhere in some mountain. Hahahaha I'm really not sure, I saw this report a long time ago. And I have to be honest, I don't know the Christian view on dinosaurs or the ice age. I suddenly feel inferior. ::sob sob::

quote:Originally posted by micho:

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know what to say frankly except I'm glad that you at least made the effort. =/



Addressing aTribeCalledSean:

They actually have found remains of what might be the ark somewhere in some mountain. Hahahaha I'm really not sure, I saw this report a long time ago. And I have to be honest, I don't know the Christian view on dinosaurs or the ice age. I suddenly feel inferior. ::sob sob::

AS YOU SHOULD DIRTY CHRISTIAN.

^^sarcasm.

Yeah, my religion teacher mentioned that to me once, but he doubted it, because of the enormous size it must have had to be.

Ask your pastor or something about the dinosaurs and the ice age. And please don't even begin to try and disprove it. No one made up dinosaurs or mastadons. I'm not trying to disprove your faith, I am just interested as to how it is explained in this situation.

That is ridiculous. The Islamic Ottoman Empire reached a point where it was at the top of the tech and knowledge tree and not a single person under it was poor. Can you please show me a coutry where not a single person lives in poverty?