Why I'm not a christian (or: If God exists...) [Archive]

micho

2004-08-12, 20:59

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

I'm not a Christian for a simple reason. Because it's all a load of excess baggage. Every religion can be summed down to one cardinal rule:

Don't hurt others. Now that we've summed that up in 3 words, what's the point of a 1500 page book? And who needs to go to church every week to make sure they're following that rule? The answer: not me. I know, and I think most people know, when I'm hurting somebody. It's not that hard to realize.

And secondly, and this is where the post gets more opinionated, if God (the Christian god) exists, why all the stupid rules? I mean...kill non-Christians? Don't masturbate? Don't have lustful thoughts (see previous)? As far as I'm concerned, any God that sends people to eternal damnation for stuff like that isn't worth believing in.

Humor point: If God is all-powerful, why did he need to rest on Sunday?

Christianity is a lot more deeper than not hurting people. Secondly, I don't know where in the bible it commands us to kill non believers. Most of my atheist friends are still alive. I'm not sure about the masturbation part but why not lust? Lust gets in the way of worshipping God, simply put. And God does NOT send people to hell for simply sinning. I am a sinner. You are a sinner. We all are sinners. The ONLY reason that God sends people to hell is because they openly reject him. God's arms are ALWAYS open but you still reject him. Man.. I don't feel like writing this, would you please review my rebuttal from a previous thread? Thanks:

quote: Originally posted by Optimus Prime:

Is this to say that at death God revokes the gift of volition?

I understand that as an omnipotent being, God's actions don't have to be logical, but I find it wrong that an all loving God can put us into ETERNAL Hell, while claiming to be just, for to punish a soul to ETERNAL Hell for a decision is to deny them the ability to change their decision and accept the love of God; it is a violation of volition, a gift God gave us, something I don't believe a just God would do. With volition comes consequences, yes; but then wouldn't changing from a wrong choice to the right choice and truly regretting making the poor decision bring about the GOOD consequences?

I cannot accept the notion that a God who violates a gift to satisfy "justice" is just. It is God's promise that all who believe in Christ and accept him in their heart as their saviour is to be given life; why is there a limit on that promise? Is not God timeless? He has all infinity to craft up arbitrary rules that seem quite contradictory to me, while us humans have on average 75 years to decide whether or not we succumb to these laws in the name of love, when we can't even be sure the being who supposedly crafted them exists?

...sorry for the little rant.

To answer your last question, it's faith my friend. For example, if I tell you right now that God exists and that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, then it is your choice, COMPLETELY your choice to believe me or not. I know that this isn't good a good rebuttal but God exists whether you believe it or not. Now, you could say that this is my(micho's) personal opinion, but on that day of judgement, when you argue with God saying that you didn't have enough "evidence", then God, being completely just, lovingly says, "I was there, I am there, and I will always be. You simply CHOSE not to believe me." No evidence you say? I can completely understand that, who wants to believe in an invisible God?? That is where faith comes in. If you have enough faith to believe, then God is as real as your two hands. God may not be necessarily explained by science but does everything have to be explained by science?? How do you explain love? Hate? Are they some kind of chemical reaction? What causes this reaction? Thought does. How do you know that love and hate exists? What is love and hate?

Now, you discuss the idea of God disregarding voilition(which I had to look up ). God does not deny volition. Sure, maybe on the day of judgement you suddenly come to realize that this Christian God is the one true God. And you sit there praying for forgiveness that now that you have seen Him you believe. Not to sound harsh but those are just futile wishes. As you have stated before, you are regretting. As just as God is, there is a "too late, my son". 75 years, optimus, 75 years to think about it, to experience it. Now, is simply having faith in God too much to ask??

Thanks for you rant, that made my boring day fun!

EDIT: Horrible grammar

Also, side note, God does NOT want you to go to hell. But it was ultimately your choice.

deptstoremook

2004-08-12, 21:11

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

You've regained my respect with this post.

When did I lose it http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

micho, your post just says "have faith". That's classic circular logic: "have faith that god exists and he will exist". So I guess if I have faith in, say, flying pink elephants, those will exist too?

So yes, having blind faith in God is too much to ask. Far too much. Call me crazy, but I want evidence before I believe in anything. And like I said before, even if God exists, as long as you're a good (or even average) person, why would he send you to hell? For not having blind faith? Ridiculous.

I'm not flaming, I'm just opening up more avenues.

By the by...(credit to Dark_Magneto, I haven't read the Bible yet)

quote:(Deuteronomy 13:6-10) If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend-- saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known,

any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them.

But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God, ...

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-12, 21:37

"When did I lose it?"

The least/most favorite ethnicity post.

Digital_Savior

2004-08-12, 22:04

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

I'm not a Christian for a simple reason. Because it's all a load of excess baggage. Every religion can be summed down to one cardinal rule:

Don't hurt others. Now that we've summed that up in 3 words, what's the point of a 1500 page book? And who needs to go to church every week to make sure they're following that rule? The answer: not me. I know, and I think most people know, when I'm hurting somebody. It's not that hard to realize.

And secondly, and this is where the post gets more opinionated, if God (the Christian god) exists, why all the stupid rules? I mean...kill non-Christians? Don't masturbate? Don't have lustful thoughts (see previous)? As far as I'm concerned, any God that sends people to eternal damnation for stuff like that isn't worth believing in.

Humor point: If God is all-powerful, why did he need to rest on Sunday?

Because gluttony doesn't hurt others (at least not directly). And lust doesn't hurt others, unless you act upon it (in the case of someone that is married).

And what of an example on how to live our lives ?

In Sodom, there was no example. Just a man telling them what God said. I would find that harder to swallow than a complete edition of God's word.

There are also historical events that are important to know about. Like...Adam's creation ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

And what about the Songs of Solomon ? Isn't it important to know what a REAL man thinks about himself and God ? What beautiful poetry.

1 & 2 Kings is also historically significant, as it outlines the genealogy's of MANY generations (most importantly the line of David, from whence Jesus is born).

If for nothing else, the Bible is a fantastic piece of history, all theology aside.

We don't go to church every week (and those that are dedicated to God should go more than once a week if possible) to make sure we are following God's rules. We go to learn about them, this is true...but most importantly, we go to fellowship. To be encouraged, because this life can really start to wear on ya. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) It's kind of like the coach giving you a pep talk before an important game.

We go to church to praise God...for some reason I just can't bring myself to sing from the bottom of my heart, at the top of my lungs, with tears streaming down my face in my shower. *lol* Not that it can't be done, I just don't "feel" it, and I am sure many who go to church feel the same.

Where does God say to kill non-Christians ?! PLEASE SHOW ME !

God doesn't say don't "masturbate" either. He says not to commit the sin of lust. This is synonymous with masturbation. (yes, I know there is a scripture about "spilling your seed", but I don't think it applies here)

You are picking and choosing which sins you find to be less abhorrant than others. ALL SINS ARE EQUAL, except for the denial of God. So, if all sins are equal, then they will be treated equally.

Without the blood of Christ washing away your sins, so to speak, you are just a piece of walking sin. Doesn't matter how many sins you have committed, or which one's. They all count.

So, if you murder someone, in the eyes of God, this is just as bad as lying. There aren't degrees to sin.

Knowing this, you cannot say that God is sending you to eternal damnation for masturbating. That is simply not the case. You are mixing apples with oranges.

What DOES send you to Hell is your denial of God, and your transgressions. God doesn't care how many or what sins you have committed. What He does care about is that YOU SIN.

Now, I sin, too...all the time ! But I have accepted Christ as my savior, and am therefor no longer held under judgement for these sins. Does this mean I get to do whatever I want ? Not remotely. This is why God gave us the ten commandments. They were given to us for our own benefit, not to prevent us from enjoying ourselves. Quite the contrary.

God didn't NEED to rest on Sunday. I like to think of it like this: you undertake the daunting task of repainting your house. You spend weeks, in the hot sun, toiling away...every spare moment you have is dedicated to it. When you are finally finished, you sit on the porch of your newly painted house, and crack open a cold beer. You relish in the work you have accomplished, and enjoy the satisfaction of a job well-done.

This is personifying God a little bit, but I believe God enjoys the satisfaction of His creation, just as He has been disappointed in it.

I also believe this was an illustration of what we are to do. We work 6 days, and we rest on the 7th (Saturdays are used for errands, or work around the house). There are many other examples of this in the Bible, not just God resting on the 7th day. (it was not called Sunday at that time. It was merely the 7th day. We have named our days of the week, so it is now "Sunday")

I find it interesting that you are content mocking a God that you don't believe exists.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-12-2004).]

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-12, 22:26

God didn't rest on the 7th day. God didn't create the universe in 7 days. This was judeo cosmology and a way to encourage recognizing the sabbath. It was basically them saying, "Look if God rested and observerd the sabbath, you need to also"

I also liked DigitalSavior's analogy, though I don't take the creation story literally. I read the bible contextually, looking at the historical context in which it was written.

micho

2004-08-12, 22:35

quote:And like I said before, even if God exists, as long as you're a good (or even average) person, why would he send you to hell?

God commands us not only to be good and to lead a life that is pleasing to God but a requirement to get into heaven is to believe that His son died for your sins so that you can get into heaven. So, living a good life would not grant you passage into heaven. Also, you ask why God would punish you for not believing in blind faith? God will punish you for not believing the truth. The truth which can be read through the Bible which is God's living word.

What is the truth? The Word is the truth. What is the Word? Jesus is the Word. As it states in John 1:1

quote: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.

Hmm.. I think I just opened an avenue towards the validity of the Bible. YAY!

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 00:22

quote:When did I lose it

micho, your post just says "have faith". That's classic circular logic: "have faith that god exists and he will exist". So I guess if I have faith in, say, flying pink elephants, those will exist too?

So yes, having blind faith in God is too much to ask. Far too much. Call me crazy, but I want evidence before I believe in anything. And like I said before, even if God exists, as long as you're a good (or even average) person, why would he send you to hell? For not having blind faith? Ridiculous.

I'm not flaming, I'm just opening up more avenues.

By the by...(credit to Dark_Magneto, I haven't read the Bible yet)

(Deuteronomy 13:6-10) If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend-- saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known,

any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them.

But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God, ...

It is circular logic to humanists. If you truly understand what we are saying, it is not all that hard to accomplish.

I am NOT saying that whatever you have faith in will exist. But you have faith that a trillion dollars exists (somewhere in the world), but you've never actually seen it, right ?

You believe that you have every emotion available to man, but cannot explain them, other than neuro-electro responses in the brain ? (forgive my technical terminology...not a brain scientist)

If you have not read the Bible, then you are basing your opinion of God and His word on what you have "heard" from either other Christians, or non-Christians.

I think that is a very dangerous way to form an opinion when it comes to the condition of your soul after physical death. Perhaps you should read it...not just by yourself, either. There is an awesome Pastor of a non-denominational Christian Church named Mark Martin who is very analytical and strictly adheres to applying the customs and language of the Hebrews in the days that the Bible was written, so that no misconceptions can be formed. His teachings can be sent to you for free by either audio tape or CD. You can request these here: http://www.calvaryphx.com/tm/ or by sending your request in writing to them. In your request, ask that they start your CD's in Genesis. (if you are truly open to learning about it, so you can make an EDUCATED decision about whether or not the Bible is a fabrication of man)

The Old Testament is riddled with tales of war, murder, and plagues. You must understand that after Christ's death, there was no need for such things. Once again, you have to read the whole thing to understand that God does not command us to kill non-Christians. That would make us no better than Muslims. (it is part of their doctrine to kill those that do not follow Allah)

Exodus 20:13

Thou shalt not kill.

In the scripture you mentioned, Moses is writing in the language and law of his time. In that day, everything was "eye for an eye". Since Christ's death, it has become "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord". Very different.

Why such stark difference in the character of God ? I believe it was to set an example. We ought to be thankful we do not live in times such as Moses', but I cannot honestly say what God is trying to do here. I don't believe He reveals His reasonings for changing from a God of wrath to a God of justice, but I could be wrong. If someone knows of a verse, please provide it. If it is not written, I am sure we will find out when we get to Heaven. ("all mysteries will be revealed")

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-13-2004).]

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 00:29

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

God didn't rest on the 7th day. God didn't create the universe in 7 days. This was judeo cosmology and a way to encourage recognizing the sabbath. It was basically them saying, "Look if God rested and observerd the sabbath, you need to also"

I also liked DigitalSavior's analogy, though I don't take the creation story literally. I read the bible contextually, looking at the historical context in which it was written.

There has been much debate over whether the days of creation were literal "days" in human terminology, or God days (which could span over 10 years or more...who knows ?).

I can't find any sites right now to show you that support the fact that these were actual days, but if you read the scripture literally, God speaks about the sun setting and rising during Creation, which is a good indication that He intended us to understand that these were actual "days".

Genesis 1

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day. 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day. 20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day. (NIV)

I think He was clear on this point for a reason, but I don't think it is relevant to this discussion.

God did rest on the 7th day:

Genesis 2

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-13-2004).]

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 00:41

quote:And like I said before, even if God exists, as long as you're a good (or even average) person, why would he send you to hell?

Here is what says about being "good":

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (KJV)

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. (NIV)

Your good works are as filthy rags. Why ? Because you are still a sinner. God cannot be in the presence of sin, and therefor cannot be in YOUR presence until that sin has been removed. The only way that your sin can be "unseen" by God is by the blood of Christ, who took upon himself the entire sin of the world, so that everyone who would accept him can have "everlasting life", which means entrance into Heaven.

sp0rkius

2004-08-13, 01:17

Roll on the day that the achitecture of the human brain is fully understood.

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-13, 01:26

quote:Originally posted by micho:

Hmm.. I think I just opened an avenue towards the validity of the Bible. YAY!

You said that you must have faith in Jesus to be accepted into heaven....

Mathew 25:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

That says to me, that alot of people will be going to heaven. And alot of you sound like "the righteous".

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-13, 05:18

Everybody scrolls at the faintest hint of bible babble, don't use a ficticious book to justify your foolish religion.

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 06:24

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Everybody scrolls at the faintest hint of bible babble, don't use a ficticious book to justify your foolish religion.

You scroll past the scripture, because of your foolish interpretation of the 4 verses you have read of the Bible.

Plenty of people respond to what I write. You are only making yourself look uneducated, and spiteful, at best.

Read the threads. You'll see what I mean.

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 06:28

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

You said that you must have faith in Jesus to be accepted into heaven....

That says to me, that alot of people will be going to heaven. And alot of you sound like "the righteous".

What are you trying to say ? I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, or genuine. I try not to have inappropriate reactions, so please give me some light in the darkness of your post. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It is good to have you among us. You seem like you have a good grasp of what is going on...I don't expect you to agree with me, and am glad that you are (at least) civil.

You offer an opposed view from mine, but almost always appear objective. That is pretty rare here on Totse, so thank you.

megalomaniac

2004-08-13, 06:30

no the bible is shit.

there i said it.

if it was all real, jesus wouldnt have died, he would have lived forever and always reminded us with his message. If god existed he would know everything about human nature. and he would know that it would be stupid to do something like send his "son" down for a few years and then have everyone believe in the same shit for eternity.

all those fuckin prophets from the bible suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. THEY HEARD VOICES IN THEIR HEADS. in todays world if you hear voices in your head your a fuckin loon and it doesnt matter if you think its god or elvis. back in the day, these nutjobs were thought of as having a direct link to god.

christianity is just about being relaxed with everyone, because one day your gonna die.

there is no afterlife. all of the bullshit you see on tv about people dying and going to heaven and then coming back to life is bullshit. there is a chemical in your brain known as DMT. Dimethyltryptamine. it is released from your pineal gland in significant quantities when you die. people who have experimented with dmt intravenously as opposed to their own brain, have reported being taken to another world. the details are strikingly similar with dmt ingestion and death reports.

afterlife debunked. thats all the fuckin proof anybody needs.

there are energies in the universe that we have not discovered. there is no man with a white beard however. its bullshit that crazy people thought up and were lucky enough to have people believe them. and jesus, if he existed, was basicly telling people to chill out, drink some wine, dont be an asshole, and dont worry too much cuz your gonna be dead sooner or later. too bad so many people in todays world that believe that they are followers have completely missed the message

oh yeah, fuck you digital savior, you didnt prove anything to anyone

megalomaniac

2004-08-13, 06:31

no the bible is shit.

there i said it.

if it was all real, jesus wouldnt have died, he would have lived forever and always reminded us with his message. If god existed he would know everything about human nature. and he would know that it would be stupid to do something like send his "son" down for a few years and then have everyone believe in the same shit for eternity.

all those fuckin prophets from the bible suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. THEY HEARD VOICES IN THEIR HEADS. in todays world if you hear voices in your head your a fuckin loon and it doesnt matter if you think its god or elvis. back in the day, these nutjobs were thought of as having a direct link to god.

christianity is just about being relaxed with everyone, because one day your gonna die.

there is no afterlife. all of the bullshit you see on tv about people dying and going to heaven and then coming back to life is bullshit. there is a chemical in your brain known as DMT. Dimethyltryptamine. it is released from your pineal gland in significant quantities when you die. people who have experimented with dmt intravenously as opposed to dmt from their own brain, have reported being taken to another world. the details are strikingly similar with dmt ingestion and death reports.

afterlife debunked. thats all the fuckin proof anybody needs.

there are energies in the universe that we have not discovered. there is no man with a white beard however. its bullshit that crazy people thought up and were lucky enough to have people believe them. and jesus, if he existed, was basicly telling people to chill out, drink some wine, dont be an asshole, and dont worry too much cuz your gonna be dead sooner or later. too bad so many people in todays world that believe that they are followers have completely missed the message

oh yeah, fuck you digital savior, you didnt prove anything to anyone

deptstoremook

2004-08-13, 07:15

quote:micho:

the Bible which is God's living word.

Prove it.

quote:I am NOT saying that whatever you have faith in will exist. But you have faith that a trillion dollars exists (somewhere in the world), but you've never actually seen it, right ?

Fallacious. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that a trillion dollars exists. The only evidence you forward for the existence of God is a book that already assumes the fact.

quote:There has been much debate over whether the days of creation were literal "days" in human terminology, or God days (which could span over 10 years or more...who knows ?).

Was just using it as an example. I don't want to get into the intricacies of creation. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Basically, I want proof that God exists. And like I said above, the proof has to be something other than a document that starts with the fact of God's existence. That's horribly fallacious: "God exists. Therefore God must exist."

I hope you see what I'm driving at.

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 07:25

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Was just using it as an example. I don't want to get into the intricacies of creation. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Basically, I want proof that God exists. And like I said above, the proof has to be something other than a document that starts with the fact of God's existence. That's horribly fallacious: "God exists. Therefore God must exist."

I hope you see what I'm driving at.

When I was talking about the 7 days, I was speaking to aTribeCalledSean, not you. My panties weren't in a bunch, I was clarifying a misconception.

It is my opinion that you don't want proof. If you did, you'd read the Bible in it's entirety, and then REALLY pray.

Open your mind, and ask Him to show Himself to you...with a genuine heart, and an open mind, He will.

If He truly doesn't exist, then what have you lost by reading the Bible and praying to Him ? Less than you would if you read Dante's Inferno, and then went to a book signing.

Let me ask you a question...why do you want proof that there is a God ? Do you truly intend to turn your life over to Him, if it is proven that He exists ?

These are honest questions, and I hope that you can answer them with the same honesty.

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 07:30

To megalomaniac: http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Well, you just continue to live a unfulfilling, meaningless life with your anger, then.

Good for you.

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-13, 07:35

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Was just using it as an example. I don't want to get into the intricacies of creation. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Basically, I want proof that God exists. And like I said above, the proof has to be something other than a document that starts with the fact of God's existence. That's horribly fallacious: "God exists. Therefore God must exist."

I hope you see what I'm driving at.

They don't have to prove it. If they are right, then they are saved, so they have no burden of proof. If they are wrong? well, they lived like decent people.

You can't blame them for wanting to save your soul. They believe they are correct, it's actually a very loving thing to try and save you. I would take more offense if an evangelizing christian didn't try to save me, because that would mean they have no hope for my soul and are giving me up to satan.

deptstoremook

2004-08-13, 07:42

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

When I was talking about the 7 days, I was speaking to aTribeCalledSean, not you. My panties weren't in a bunch, I was clarifying a misconception.

OK. Retracted.

It is my opinion that you don't want proof. If you did, you'd read the Bible in it's entirety, and then REALLY pray.

Open your mind, and ask Him to show Himself to you...with a genuine heart, and an open mind, He will.

If He truly doesn't exist, then what have you lost by reading the Bible and praying to Him ? Less than you would if you read Dante's Inferno, and then went to a book signing.

You're telling me to pray with an "open mind". What you mean by that is to pray with a mental proclivity towards the existence of God. More circular reasoning on your part.

I definitely plan on reading the Bible, sooner or later, but you neglected my statement about the book: it already assumes God exists. You'd have to prove to me that the bible is the word of God, before I accepted it.

Let me ask you a question...why do you want proof that there is a God ? Do you truly intend to turn your life over to Him, if it is proven that He exists ?

I wouldn't do anything. I would have no intention of "converting" upon receiving proof. It's a matter of interest, you see. I want to know why you accept God (blindly, from my viewpoint) but I don't. It's also a matter of spite, because I'm gambling on the fact that God isn't the vengeful, contradictory asshole Christianity makes him out to be.

These are honest questions, and I hope that you can answer them with the same honesty.

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-13, 07:47

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You scroll past the scripture, because of your foolish interpretation of the 4 verses you have read of the Bible.

Plenty of people respond to what I write. You are only making yourself look uneducated, and spiteful, at best.

Read the threads. You'll see what I mean.

Try reading some philosophy. Nietzsche would be a good start for you.

btw people respond to you because you are so wrong they cannot bear to let it go.

I_Like_Traffic_Lights

2004-08-13, 07:50

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Try reading some philosophy. Nietzsche would be a good start for you.

btw people respond to you because you are so wrong they cannot bear to let it go.

Did you know Nietzsche was the son of a preacher. In grade school the other children called him "little preacher" or "God boy" or some other inanae immature ridicule, I can't recall exactly I'm tired.

This is a useless post really, just like yours.

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-13, 07:53

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Try reading some philosophy. Nietzsche would be a good start for you.

btw people respond to you because you are so wrong they cannot bear to let it go.

I've read Nietzche.

Are you refering to the wholely misconcieved "God is dead!" line in "The Gay Science".

Or the messianic figure in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"?

I've also read beyond good and evil, Ecce Homo, The Anti-christ, and The Will to Power.

Just what of Nietzche are you refering to? Cause his philosophy changed over time also.

Also, Philosophy isn't just athiestic or agnostic. Read Kierkegaard if your such a philosophy expert, he was psuedo-existential also, yet he was christian. Don't generalize philosophy like she hasn't read any. I'm sure she's familiar with the famous existential philosophers.

[This message has been edited by aTribeCalledSean (edited 08-13-2004).]

Digital_Savior

2004-08-13, 17:25

quote:You're telling me to pray with an "open mind". What you mean by that is to pray with a mental proclivity towards the existence of God. More circular reasoning on your part.

I definitely plan on reading the Bible, sooner or later, but you neglected my statement about the book: it already assumes God exists. You'd have to prove to me that the bible is the word of God, before I accepted it.

I wouldn't do anything. I would have no intention of "converting" upon receiving proof. It's a matter of interest, you see. I want to know why you accept God (blindly, from my viewpoint) but I don't. It's also a matter of spite, because I'm gambling on the fact that God isn't the vengeful, contradictory asshole Christianity makes him out to be.

No...I am not saying that you need to pray with a mental proclivity towards the existence of God. I am saying that you have to be in "receive" mode. Whether Buddha, or Allah, or "God" responds is irrelevant. Meditiation DOES have it's beneficial qualities outside of Buddhism.

To clear your mind is to be receptive to your environment. It's pretty difficult to achieve, but it can be done.

You said you wanted proof...well, you must take the steps to receive that proof. I don't believe that is circular thinking.

If you want a degree, you have to go to college and become knowledgable about the field you are interested in.

The Bible does not assume that God exists. It is written as an accurate, historical account of the events leading to the creation of man, the birth and death of Jesus, and the end of the world.

This is to say that because I write about the ocean, I assume it exists. Well, I can see the ocean, I can touch the ocean, I can hear the ocean.

The men that wrote the Bible experienced God personally. Some "saw" Him (Moses at the burning bush), MANY heard Him, and for those that were a live during the time of Jesus, they touched him.

So, I don't see how they were assuming anything. They experienced Him, so they wrote about Him. But there is much more to the Bible than stories about God. I encourage you to read it soon.

So, here's some circular logic for ya...if you want to have it proven that the Bible is the word of God, read it.

If you plan to do nothing with the "proof", then what you do is an act of futility.

I don't accept God blindly...I guess you haven't been reading any of my posts. I told the story of my salvation, and it had nothing to do with being blind (mentally, spiritually, or otherwise).

Christianity doesn't make God out to be anything. What He is, is all in the Bible.

Certain Christians misconstrue His word, or twist it for their own selfish gain, but that does not take away from His truth.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-13-2004).]

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-13, 22:59

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

Did you know Nietzsche was the son of a preacher. In grade school the other children called him "little preacher" or "God boy" or some other inanae immature ridicule, I can't recall exactly I'm tired.

This is a useless post really, just like yours.

Do you know what I know? Exactly.

I was perfectly aware of that. Hmmm, let's see, maybe I was getting at something?

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-13, 23:20

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

I've read Nietzche.

Are you refering to the wholely misconcieved "God is dead!" line in "The Gay Science".

Or the messianic figure in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"?

I've also read beyond good and evil, Ecce Homo, The Anti-christ, and The Will to Power.

Just what of Nietzche are you refering to? Cause his philosophy changed over time also.

Also, Philosophy isn't just athiestic or agnostic. Read Kierkegaard if your such a philosophy expert, he was psuedo-existential also, yet he was christian. Don't generalize philosophy like she hasn't read any. I'm sure she's familiar with the famous existential philosophers.

[This message has been edited by aTribeCalledSean (edited 08-13-2004).]

I would say the Anti-Christ would be a good start. His philosophy changed over time? You don't say. I never stated that I was a philosophy "expert", nor did I claim to have read all Nietzsche's works, I just happen to like what I have read by him.I did assume digital savior didn't read much philosophy because she doesn't seem tolerant of other view points. Surely you didn't think I meant all philosophers are atheists did you? I don't speak in absolutes very often.

Digital_Savior

2004-08-14, 00:56

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

Do you know what I know? Exactly.

I was perfectly aware of that. Hmmm, let's see, maybe I was getting at something?

That would be surprising...usually, you're not.

Digital_Savior

2004-08-14, 00:59

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

I would say the Anti-Christ would be a good start. His philosophy changed over time? You don't say. I never stated that I was a philosophy "expert", nor did I claim to have read all Nietzsche's works, I just happen to like what I have read by him.I did assume digital savior didn't read much philosophy because she doesn't seem tolerant of other view points. Surely you didn't think I meant all philosophers are atheists did you? I don't speak in absolutes very often.

And you're not tolerant of other people's view points, when they come from a Christian.

I am tolerant...to those that can reciprocate. (MasterPython disagrees with everything I say, but he is decent about it. Have never had a harsh word for him)

I guess that's a flaw...I should be tolerant of people who angrily tell me that babies should be ripped apart in the name of science and posterity..

Yep...how dare I be intolerant of such a wonderful thing.

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-14, 00:59

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

That would be surprising...usually, you're not.

That's not very nice.

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-14, 01:02

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And you're not tolerant of other people's view points, when they come from a Christian.

I am tolerant...to those that can reciprocate. (MasterPython disagrees with everything I say, but he is decent about it. Have never had a harsh word for him)

I guess that's a flaw...I should be tolerant of people who angrily tell me that babies should be ripped apart in the name of science and posterity..

Yep...how dare I be intolerant of such a wonderful thing.

I said babies should be ripped apart? Does jesus lie too?

I_Like_Traffic_Lights

2004-08-14, 01:34

With the thinking that Digi doesn't tolerate others view points (she does by the way), but thinking that how can you think she'd pick up such anti-christian rhetoric as Nietzsche and go "oh shit my life's a lie I better change my ways."

It's simply not logical.

I like a lot of Nietzsche's works as well, but because of his resentment about his strong lineage of clergy men he comes off as very angry and anti-christian. I realize his overall message is a good one, through his resentment of the slave morality he comes off as a bit of an arrogant cock and his message can be misinterpreted as a bad one.

How could you expect someone you (wrongfully) think is closed minded to be receptive to this kind of thing?

And the other guy's got a point about your "you should try philosophy" comment. Kierkegard (I can never spell that, or say it for that matter, right) as already used as an example. The greek philosophers used religion quite often over ethics and the concept of what is good. Heidegger's concept on the being and the nothingess seem somewhat religous at points, to me at least. and his truth through art essays. St. Augustine is a respected philosopher, very (obviously) religious. Though I don't agree with a lot of his stuff, he's still "some philosophy".

again this post is mostly pointless.

megalomaniac

2004-08-14, 01:52

digital, you aren't convincing anyone with your little insights about how some people heard and saw god. i realize now that your'e the kind of person who could be shown concrete evidence that something does not exist, but if you believe otherwise the proof means nothing to you, because you are a stubborn imbecile.

go and live your life relying on feelings as opposed to facts.

I_Like_Traffic_Lights

2004-08-14, 01:55

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

go and live your life relying on feelings as opposed to facts.

You realize that a lot of "facts" are merely widely accepted opinion, right? And feelings are one of the few things that belong to you and you alone. No one can tell you "no don't feel that way", hell you can't even tell yourself how to feel. It's pretty close to the only "truth" available, if truth truly existed.

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-14, 02:13

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

With the thinking that Digi doesn't tolerate others view points (she does by the way), but thinking that how can you think she'd pick up such anti-christian rhetoric as Nietzsche and go "oh shit my life's a lie I better change my ways."

It's simply not logical.

I like a lot of Nietzsche's works as well, but because of his resentment about his strong lineage of clergy men he comes off as very angry and anti-christian. I realize his overall message is a good one, through his resentment of the slave morality he comes off as a bit of an arrogant cock and his message can be misinterpreted as a bad one.

How could you expect someone you (wrongfully) think is closed minded to be receptive to this kind of thing?

And the other guy's got a point about your "you should try philosophy" comment. Kierkegard (I can never spell that, or say it for that matter, right) as already used as an example. The greek philosophers used religion quite often over ethics and the concept of what is good. Heidegger's concept on the being and the nothingess seem somewhat religous at points, to me at least. and his truth through art essays. St. Augustine is a respected philosopher, very (obviously) religious. Though I don't agree with a lot of his stuff, he's still "some philosophy".

again this post is mostly pointless.

No this has points.Too many, acctually. The whole reason I said Nietzsche is because he was such an angry anti-religion radical, and digi, as you call her, seemed to be the opposite.So I thought I would show her an opposite. When people re exposed to radically different views it should make them question their own. Or not.

P.s. you read heidegger?

megalomaniac

2004-08-14, 02:39

quote:You realize that a lot of "facts" are merely widely accepted opinion, right? And feelings are one of the few things that belong to you and you alone. No one can tell you "no don't feel that way", hell you can't even tell yourself how to feel. It's pretty close to the only "truth" available, if truth truly existed.

You have trouble comprehending simple concepts dont you I_Like_Traffic_Lights? You seemed to have completely misunderstood what i was saying.

yes feelings are the only thing that you have that belongs to you theoretically. but When your feelings start causing you to believe fiction, you have a problem. i rely on facts that i believe can be proved to me without a doubt. Im not a gullible wuss. I do not rely on something some mentally disturbed people said thousands of years ago as a fact.

If you see a homeless person talking to himself and saying god is talking to him, you throw him a quarter and tell him to go away, there isn't a difference between that guy and the crazies that talked to themselves and heard god thousands of years ago. and if you say well maybe the people today hear god too, you should go and by a crazy guy some dinner, because he is your gods messenger and you shouldn't let him die, because maybe god is telling the world something important through the crazy guy.

and if you say that god doesnt talk to us after jesus died, etc . then shutup because no one wants to hear it.

my words make sense and digital's don't, thats the bottom line. now stop responding to things you dont understand because you make yourself look stupid

[This message has been edited by megalomaniac (edited 08-14-2004).]

I_Like_Traffic_Lights

2004-08-14, 03:05

I think therefore I am, the only given.

Even though more recent school of thought may be becoming I am therefore I think.

Regardless, facts are still to be taken with a grain of salt. Even those that can be "proved", because they're really only being proved through it's relation to other facts which is only proof of it's relation to other facts which etc. etc. etc. It's truly a great balancing act seperating us from the animals with absolutely no knowledge, or even a need for knowledge.

The point wasn't me telling you to believe in crazy people, my point was you already do. The crazy people you were talking about just have the decency to look and act out of their mind.

megalomaniac

2004-08-14, 03:20

yes i cant disprove your "nothing is real" type theory. however, this is the reality everyone here lives in, and we have to take the information from this reality and use it to our advantage.

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-14, 04:01

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

No this has points.Too many, acctually. The whole reason I said Nietzsche is because he was such an angry anti-religion radical, and digi, as you call her, seemed to be the opposite.So I thought I would show her an opposite. When people re exposed to radically different views it should make them question their own. Or not.

P.s. you read heidegger?

wow, you need to re-read Nietzche. He wasn't anti-christian, he was anti-clergy or anti-institutionlized religion. He was a christian himself, not all the time, but as a youth and near death he was christian.

"God is dead!" is an insanely misconcieved line. He says "God is dead" in one form or another, but it's most famously seen in "the madman" chapter of The Gay Science..

"Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are his murderers.......... "How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?"

He was speaking against the institution of religion and God, not the believers. He still believed in God, but he was saying that "we" have killed what God is supposed to be, "we" have created "festivals of atonement and sacred games".

Enough on Nietzche.

But how do you see Nietzche any different than the bible? If you are a non-christian than you should see the bible as a great book of philosophy, it was written by people, just as Nietzches books.

Maybe DigiSavior won't like Nietzche, because if you have truly read him, he is very very chauvinistic. He literally hates women, that could be a turn off. I would rather follow Jesus, a man with very progressive views on women and the marginalized, than Nietzche, a self-professed woman-hater.

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-14, 04:04

[QUOTE]Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

[B]I think therefore I am, the only given.

How do you know that there is an I to think?

Aren't you presupposing what you are trying to prove? Put another way: I rule, therefore I exist. That's a circular argument.

See, now this is a pointless reply.

I_Like_Traffic_Lights

2004-08-14, 04:39

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

[B]I think therefore I am, the only given.

How do you know that there is an I to think?

Aren't you presupposing what you are trying to prove? Put another way: I rule, therefore I exist. That's a circular argument.

See, now this is a pointless reply.

ah touche (I think that's how it's spelled). I don't necessarily follow the axiom, but it's something people are familiar with and gives the reader something to bite on to. I was attempting to throw facts out the window of a religious debate the way it should be. Just like talks of God should be thrown out of discussions of scientific nature.

They just don't play well with others.

Plus I have a head cold and enjoy babbling when I have a head cold. Now I just need some lucky charms, lucky charms they're magically delicious.

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-14, 04:49

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

wow, you need to re-read Nietzche. He wasn't anti-christian, he was anti-clergy or anti-institutionlized religion. He was a christian himself, not all the time, but as a youth and near death he was christian.

"God is dead!" is an insanely misconcieved line. He says "God is dead" in one form or another, but it's most famously seen in "the madman" chapter of The Gay Science..

"Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are his murderers.......... "How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us?"

He was speaking against the institution of religion and God, not the believers. He still believed in God, but he was saying that "we" have killed what God is supposed to be, "we" have created "festivals of atonement and sacred games".

Enough on Nietzche.

But how do you see Nietzche any different than the bible? If you are a non-christian than you should see the bible as a great book of philosophy, it was written by people, just as Nietzches books.

Maybe DigiSavior won't like Nietzche, because if you have truly read him, he is very very chauvinistic. He literally hates women, that could be a turn off. I would rather follow Jesus, a man with very progressive views on women and the marginalized, than Nietzche, a self-professed woman-hater.

First off: Nietzsche spent the last years of his life in a mental institution muttering to himself, if he reverted to christianity it would be understandable. Whether he was anti- clergy or instituion doesn't matter,"The last Christian died on the cross" seems to me anti- christian.

Second: The bible is not philosophy.No philosopher I have heard of claims to be the word of God. I can't appreciate the bible as philosopy because it is based on faith. And faith cannot ever be proven wrong.

Thirdly: Jesus might have been "progressive" but the bible sure as hell isn't. I've said before: I'm not a Nietzsche "expert", but to say he is more chauvinistic than the bible. I disagree.I'm not going to provide tons of bible quotes to prove how patriarchic it is, we all know this.

Lastly, Nietzsche didn't say " God is dead"

He said: "Gott ist tot"

Enough on Nietzche.

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-14, 10:13

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

First off: Nietzsche spent the last years of his life in a mental institution muttering to himself, if he reverted to christianity it would be understandable. Whether he was anti- clergy or instituion doesn't matter,"The last Christian died on the cross" seems to me anti- christian.

Second: The bible is not philosophy.No philosopher I have heard of claims to be the word of God. I can't appreciate the bible as philosopy because it is based on faith. And faith cannot ever be proven wrong.

Thirdly: Jesus might have been "progressive" but the bible sure as hell isn't. I've said before: I'm not a Nietzsche "expert", but to say he is more chauvinistic than the bible. I disagree.I'm not going to provide tons of bible quotes to prove how patriarchic it is, we all know this.

Lastly, Nietzsche didn't say " God is dead"

He said: "Gott ist tot"

Enough on Nietzche.

Ok lets refute some of your knowledge.

#1. Nietzche is far more anti-women than the bible, wanna hear some things Nietzche had to say about women?

"When a woman has scholarly inclinations, there is usually something wrong with her sexually."

"Woman has so much reason for shame; so much pedantry, superficiality, schoolmarmishness, petty presumption, petty licentiousness, and immodesty lies concealed in woman."

"Everything about woman has one solution: that is pregnancy."

"A woman may very well form a friendship with a man, but for this to endure, it must be assisted by a little physical antipathy."

"Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent."

He has plenty more to say about women, but I think you get the point. Now I know you don't want to qoute scripture, but point out something more obviously anti-female in the bible than this.

#2. When Nietzche said "the last christian died on the cross" he wasn't being anti-christian. He was saying the same thing as Ghandi, "I would become a christian if I ever met one". They weren't refuting christianity, they were saying that there are virtually no true christians that adhere to every one of his laws.

#3. And existentialism isn't based on faith? Please, you need to look at philosophy a little harder. If you take any philosophy to heart, and live it out, you are putting faith in that philosophy. Most philosophers claim to hold the Truth, that's saying the same thing as the bible. Also, most philosophy can never be proved wrong, so you aren't making any substantial points.

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-14, 10:15

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

With the thinking that Digi doesn't tolerate others view points (she does by the way), but thinking that how can you think she'd pick up such anti-christian rhetoric as Nietzsche and go "oh shit my life's a lie I better change my ways."

It's simply not logical.

I like a lot of Nietzsche's works as well, but because of his resentment about his strong lineage of clergy men he comes off as very angry and anti-christian. I realize his overall message is a good one, through his resentment of the slave morality he comes off as a bit of an arrogant cock and his message can be misinterpreted as a bad one.

How could you expect someone you (wrongfully) think is closed minded to be receptive to this kind of thing?

And the other guy's got a point about your "you should try philosophy" comment. Kierkegard (I can never spell that, or say it for that matter, right) as already used as an example. The greek philosophers used religion quite often over ethics and the concept of what is good. Heidegger's concept on the being and the nothingess seem somewhat religous at points, to me at least. and his truth through art essays. St. Augustine is a respected philosopher, very (obviously) religious. Though I don't agree with a lot of his stuff, he's still "some philosophy".

again this post is mostly pointless.

It's more like, how could she pick up such blatantly anti-women comments and believe it.

Yeah, Nietzche is all to often misinterpreted or misused. (Hitler anyone?)

Hahaha, Kierkegaard is great, I really like him, He's really positive.

oh and it's pronounced Kear-keh-gaurd or Kear-kih-gaurd.

Apoc

2004-08-14, 11:05

Hello.

Digital, "opening your mind" to let God talk to you simply doesn't prove a shit. In the world we live in we already know quite a lot of psychology and how human mind works. We may think that something is something else than it is. Not to mention stereotypes... And then there's the people that believe in something so much that they start blindly thinking it is true when they actually have no proof or reason to believe in it, other than the FEELING. That's with every single religion there is, even the very dumbest ones. You tell people to open your mind and accept all the signs that God exists and you will know that He exists. Like watch around and think "OMG, the world is so beautiful, there has to be a god. Digital_Savior was right." People that believe in other religions have probably done the exact same thing but they did not become christians. Why not? Cause it wasn't a christian that told about the signs.

My point is that if you become a christian by listening and looking for the "signs", you can't say that other religions are wrong cause they work exactly the same way as yours. No one can prove that the christian god or any other religions' gods exist and no one can prove they don't. If you want to believe, then believe. You won't lose anything. But DON'T let religion take too much from your life, that's just fucking stupid. It really should not be one of your primary things in life, cause after all you actually have no good reason to believe in it.

I'm sorry if my text was a confusing, english isn't my native language and so it's hard for me to express all my thoughts about the topic.

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-14, 22:07

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Ok lets refute some of your knowledge.

#1. Nietzche is far more anti-women than the bible, wanna hear some things Nietzche had to say about women?

"When a woman has scholarly inclinations, there is usually something wrong with her sexually."

"Woman has so much reason for shame; so much pedantry, superficiality, schoolmarmishness, petty presumption, petty licentiousness, and immodesty lies concealed in woman."

"Everything about woman has one solution: that is pregnancy."

"A woman may very well form a friendship with a man, but for this to endure, it must be assisted by a little physical antipathy."

"Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent."

He has plenty more to say about women, but I think you get the point. Now I know you don't want to qoute scripture, but point out something more obviously anti-female in the bible than this.

#2. When Nietzche said "the last christian died on the cross" he wasn't being anti-christian. He was saying the same thing as Ghandi, "I would become a christian if I ever met one". They weren't refuting christianity, they were saying that there are virtually no true christians that adhere to every one of his laws.

#3. And existentialism isn't based on faith? Please, you need to look at philosophy a little harder. If you take any philosophy to heart, and live it out, you are putting faith in that philosophy. Most philosophers claim to hold the Truth, that's saying the same thing as the bible. Also, most philosophy can never be proved wrong, so you aren't making any substantial points.

_________________________________________________-

#1: Read the bible over if you think it's far less anti-women, as you claim Nietzsche to be.Maybe his antipathy towards women was a remnant of his religious upbringing.

#2: You are interpreting there. My interpretation is slightly different. I think he was saying that no christian "could" adhere to the laws of christianity, because they ran counter to man's instincts."There are no moral phenomena at all, but only moral interpretation of phenomena" Does that sound like a christian to you?

#3:I'm not an Existentialist, for precicesly that reason. Faith or as Nietzsche would put it: "not wanting to know what is true."Please, you need to realize existentialism is not the only philosophy. Most philosophers DO NOT claim to know the truth. In philosophy they talk about little t's, in religion they talk about big T's. Philosophy can be proven wrong.If you show a philosopher compelling evidence their particular philosophy is wrong, they will change. The bible cannot change. It is the word of God. (even though it has changed, and was written by MEN).

WolfinSheepsClothing

2004-08-14, 22:18

"It's more like, how could she pick up such blatantly anti-women comments and believe it."

She reads the bible doesn't she? Or is she a good little girl and have it interpreted for her.

__________________________________________________ _

Yeah, Nietzche is all to often misinterpreted or misused. (Hitler anyone?)

Now that is an excellent point.

aTribeCalledSean

2004-08-14, 23:18

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

_________________________________________________-

#1: Read the bible over if you think it's far less anti-women, as you claim Nietzsche to be.Maybe his antipathy towards women was a remnant of his religious upbringing.

#2: You are interpreting there. My interpretation is slightly different. I think he was saying that no christian "could" adhere to the laws of christianity, because they ran counter to man's instincts."There are no moral phenomena at all, but only moral interpretation of phenomena" Does that sound like a christian to you?

#3:I'm not an Existentialist, for precicesly that reason. Faith or as Nietzsche would put it: "not wanting to know what is true."Please, you need to realize existentialism is not the only philosophy. Most philosophers DO NOT claim to know the truth. In philosophy they talk about little t's, in religion they talk about big T's. Philosophy can be proven wrong.If you show a philosopher compelling evidence their particular philosophy is wrong, they will change. The bible cannot change. It is the word of God. (even though it has changed, and was written by MEN).

All valid points, and we will get nowhere arguing interpretations, becuase they are just that, our own interpretations.

However there is good proof that the bible hasn't changed over the years. There is actually something of a 96% purity percentage in the bible. It has remained virtually unchanged.

An interesting fact is that if you take all the writings of the early church fathers, you can reconstruc the entire new testament except for 11 verses.

anyway food for thought.

deptstoremook

2004-08-16, 02:52

This topic is going nowhere. I officially designate it closed, due to the fact that differences in perception will never be commiserated.

Mitizaa

2004-09-06, 08:08

one last thing...in no way does the bible just say "dont hurt others" and masturbating is okay...your kinda weird making that up... :|

Digital_Savior

2004-09-07, 07:53

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

I said babies should be ripped apart? Does jesus lie too?

No, not specifically. I believe you were on the "Rust Hate Bandwagon" in the abortion thread. It is kind of a bad memory...

So, don't call me a liar. Just because the thread is gone, doesn't mean I don't remember the viewpoint you held on abortion.

One thing I DON'T do is lie.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-07-2004).]

Digital_Savior

2004-09-07, 07:57

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

digital, you aren't convincing anyone with your little insights about how some people heard and saw god. i realize now that your'e the kind of person who could be shown concrete evidence that something does not exist, but if you believe otherwise the proof means nothing to you, because you are a stubborn imbecile.

go and live your life relying on feelings as opposed to facts.

Can you physically disprove the fact that I have spiritually experienced God, on many occasions ?

Can you physically disprove that the Bible is not a spiritual book ?

The answer, in case your powers of deduction are failing you at this moment, is NO.

You know why ? Because there aren't any "field tests" for such things.

So, don't give me your crap about "PROOF", because you haven't got any more proof that the sky is PURPLE and not BLUE than you do that God doesn't exist.

I'm the kind of person that was shown concrete evidence of the existence of God, and chose to disbelieve it for MANY years.

Don't pretend to know me...you look like a fool.

Digital_Savior

2004-09-07, 08:03

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

You have trouble comprehending simple concepts dont you I_Like_Traffic_Lights? You seemed to have completely misunderstood what i was saying.

yes feelings are the only thing that you have that belongs to you theoretically. but When your feelings start causing you to believe fiction, you have a problem. i rely on facts that i believe can be proved to me without a doubt. Im not a gullible wuss. I do not rely on something some mentally disturbed people said thousands of years ago as a fact.

If you see a homeless person talking to himself and saying god is talking to him, you throw him a quarter and tell him to go away, there isn't a difference between that guy and the crazies that talked to themselves and heard god thousands of years ago. and if you say well maybe the people today hear god too, you should go and by a crazy guy some dinner, because he is your gods messenger and you shouldn't let him die, because maybe god is telling the world something important through the crazy guy.

and if you say that god doesnt talk to us after jesus died, etc . then shutup because no one wants to hear it.

my words make sense and digital's don't, thats the bottom line. now stop responding to things you dont understand because you make yourself look stupid

[This message has been edited by megalomaniac (edited 08-14-2004).]

Actually, Traffic has proven to be a highly intelligent individual. If you actually spent some time here, instead of showing up once every month and a half, you'd know us all better.

The same could be said for YOU...your feelings lead you to believe "fiction", since your beliefs haven't been entirely proven scientifically, either.

God speaks to those who LISTEN, which is apparently a talent you haven't been blessed with. (along with tolerance)

My posts seem to make sense to everyone else but YOU. Whether they are agreed with, or not, is an entirely different subject.

You are filled with malice, contempt, and downright rottenness.

Don't you think you ought to examine that ? What have I done to you PERSONALLY that would cause such a verbal assault ?

Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

That alone should make you feel a bit squirmy about YOU, and your BELIEFS.

"Hey, look ! The Stupid Pot is calling the Stupid Kettle BLACK !!"

Digital_Savior

2004-09-07, 08:05

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

yes i cant disprove your "nothing is real" type theory. however, this is the reality everyone here lives in, and we have to take the information from this reality and use it to our advantage.

What advantage ? A BETTER, more comfortable (and technologically advanced) permanent physical death ?

WOOHOO ! Something to look forward to...NOTHINGNESS !

I guess I would be as angry as you are if I believed there was no point to this life except SELF.

Digital_Savior

2004-09-07, 08:16

quote:Originally posted by Apoc:

Hello.

Digital, "opening your mind" to let God talk to you simply doesn't prove a shit. In the world we live in we already know quite a lot of psychology and how human mind works. We may think that something is something else than it is. Not to mention stereotypes... And then there's the people that believe in something so much that they start blindly thinking it is true when they actually have no proof or reason to believe in it, other than the FEELING. That's with every single religion there is, even the very dumbest ones. You tell people to open your mind and accept all the signs that God exists and you will know that He exists. Like watch around and think "OMG, the world is so beautiful, there has to be a god. Digital_Savior was right." People that believe in other religions have probably done the exact same thing but they did not become christians. Why not? Cause it wasn't a christian that told about the signs.

My point is that if you become a christian by listening and looking for the "signs", you can't say that other religions are wrong cause they work exactly the same way as yours. No one can prove that the christian god or any other religions' gods exist and no one can prove they don't. If you want to believe, then believe. You won't lose anything. But DON'T let religion take too much from your life, that's just fucking stupid. It really should not be one of your primary things in life, cause after all you actually have no good reason to believe in it.

I'm sorry if my text was a confusing, english isn't my native language and so it's hard for me to express all my thoughts about the topic.

Didn't say it would prove anything...I asid it would open the door so many stand at and pound on pointlessly.

I have plenty of proof...you have missed thousands of my posts prior to this, which is why you are ignorant of these proofs. You don't seem terribly interested in proof, anyhow.

I wasn't talking about signs. Again, ignorance. Spirituality is only known by the individual, and is different in every instance.

My faith (I don't practice a religion) has GIVEN me life...everlasting. I care nothing for this physical body, or what happens to it while it is here on earth. It is merely on loan to me until my work here is done.

Is this the part where I say "Baaaaahhhh!" ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

You know nothing about me. You're pretty presumptuous !

You should try to read the Bible, cover to cover, with the aid of a Strong's Concordance, and a Hebrew to English text translator. See then if you have the same opinions about "truth" and "proof".

I forgive your English (though it wasn't that bad), but your clear disregard for knowledge on this subject, I cannot.

All of this coming from a guy who idolizes a character from the movie Matrix.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Rust

2004-09-07, 17:05

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, not specifically. I believe you were on the "Rust Hate Bandwagon" in the abortion thread. It is kind of a bad memory...

So, don't call me a liar. Just because the thread is gone, doesn't mean I don't remember the viewpoint you held on abortion.

One thing I DON'T do is lie.

Well then you did lie, because neither he, nor I, promoted the 'ripping apart of babies' and you said he did. You obviously knew this, but chose to post it anyway, in a petty and pathetic attempt to further your childish rants.

<A HREF="http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif">http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif" width="90" height="90)</A>

Good job!

Digital_Savior

2004-09-07, 20:32

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well then you did lie, because neither he, nor I, promoted the 'ripping apart of babies' and you said he did. You obviously knew this, but chose to post it anyway, in a petty and pathetic attempt to further your childish rants.

<A HREF="http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif"> <A HREF="http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif"> <A HREF="http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif">http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://www.totse.com/bbs/icons/icon14.gif" width="90" height="90)</A> </A> </A>

Good job!

If you support the choice to have an abortion, you support abortion.

If you support abortion, you support the ripping apart of children.

NOT ALL ABORTIONS ARE DONE BEFORE THE 8TH WEEK !

I love how you ignore the facts to make yourself feel better about advocating the murder of children.

I'm done, by the way. Not getting into another one of your infantile, incoherent spats. Not worth it.

(Nice to see you come out of the woodwork when it's convenient.)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-07-2004).]

Rust

2004-09-07, 22:45

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If you support the choice to have an abortion, you support abortion.

If you support abortion, you support the ripping apart of children.

NOT ALL ABORTIONS ARE DONE BEFORE THE 8TH WEEK !

I love how you ignore the facts to make yourself feel better about advocating the murder of children.

I'm done, by the way. Not getting into another one of your infantile, incoherent spats. Not worth it.

Sorry but no, your argument is riddled with fallacies.

1. Me supporting CHOICE is not the same as me supporting abortion.

Is it your argument that Jesus would have forced people not to sin? No? Then he supported CHOICE. Did he believe in "free will"? Yes? Then he supported CHOICE.

2. Them being alive is not a "Fact" as you put it. It is still debated. You can form your opinion on the question, but that is certainly not a fact.

3. By saying that I (or him) support the mutilation of babies, you have lied.

quote:

(Nice to see you come out of the woodwork when it's convenient.)

If by "convenient" you mean, when I'm being attacked, then yes. It is nice.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-07-2004).]