What do we do with a person that murders? What dowe do with a Serial Murderer? We kill them. Or at the very least, we lock them away for the rest of their lives.

So why, after the Catholic Church, and several (if not all) other Christian denomonations do we still give them reverence?

The Church has murdered countless thousands, millions really, through the Spanish Inquisition, Witch Trail, Crusades, their harsh totalitarian rule in the Middle Ages,and less directly through their position of neutrality towards Nazis and support of the Facist Regiem in Italy during WWII, along with the fact that Italian preists help smuggle Nazi war criminals away from justice after the war. And all in the Name of God.

So why, after all of this, can you belong to a congregation of one of these religions? That's like worshiping John Wayne Gacy. So why as a society do we allow these Devotees to Genocide to coexist among us?

Sure, you can say, "the Church reformed." Wellhow do you explain priests molesting childeren, and the Church's policy of apathy and allowing the continuation of preying on childeren by transfering the offenders to different parishes? (I'm sure this subject has been hit upon and beat to death, ignoreit if you wish.)

These are a few of my problems with Christianity.

Yeah, its all a big act centered around money, control and power. All hail Lucifer

the Church's corruption doesn't prove Catholicism or Christianity in general wrong

[This message has been edited by Zman (edited 08-17-2004).]

So, Dahmer's astonishingly horrible crimes don't make him a bad person? Why should we punish him?

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

the Church's corruption doesn't prove Catholicism or Christianity in general wrong

[This message has been edited by Zman (edited 08-17-2004).]

That's not what he said. He said it's wrong (or at least hypocritcal) to support a church that, simultaneously, is a murderer and tells you to condemn murder.

Sheesh louise.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

the Church's corruption doesn't prove Catholicism or Christianity in general wrong

[This message has been edited by Zman (edited 08-17-2004).]

It doesn't?

quote:Originally posted by KidKelko:

So, Dahmer's astonishingly horrible crimes don't make him a bad person? Why should we punish him?

All those killers were white people. Does that make you want to denounce your fairness of skin?

I know, not a great analogy, but almost any group of power has exploited it in one way or another. Get over it, you can't expect people to denounce their faith because of past transgressions. Hold those institutions responsible? Of course. But that is no reason to leave a congregation, it's actually more of a reason to stay and try and change it for the better.

Aren't you a buddhist Sean?

Well, I can expect people to turn from thier religion when they see what it is really doing. Why does Christianity have to be an orginized gathering? With a central head of power and trillions of dollars? It's for support of mass genocide. It's been that way in history and now, through much more covert methods, it is still the same.

For the record, I was raised Catholic, I was an alter boy, I learned about the structure and symbolism of mass, I was very involved in the youth group of my church. I was Jesus Freak, then I learned about and saw what the Church was, a money genorator for the Vatican where systematicl destroy all evidence agaisnt their faith? Are they insecure? Take my joke:

Why do they call them Bible Thumpers?

Because that's how they convert!

Whack, whack, whack! ha ha, get it? No seriously, why did Christianity murder thousands if not millions during the Colonialization period as a tool of converting? Because their point is moot? Their belief structure is full of holes. The varying sects of Christianity can show you that. If their are so many drasticly different interpritations of the bible, how can any of them be right? Shouldn't God have an Ultimate Truth? So we can't fuck it up, why would God be so elusive in his message? "God has His reasons." Well I don't like those reasons and if God wants His people to believe and come together and Love one another, He should make his message clear instead of confusing us with mustard Seeds and Farmer's Sons. That's a loving God. Remember Satan is the great deciver, and the best way to decive is shawdows, smoke and parables.

Hmm, it seems I've gotten a little carried away with this tiraid. I'm not here to convert Christians, just to engage their minds. Something a flock of "sheep" don't often do.

To your first question, yeah kinda. Haha I guess, it's hard to explain. But for all intents and purposes, yes.

To your first full paragraph. You are speaking of the Catholic church, not christianity in it's entirety or case by case christians.

To your second paragraph. I was/am raised catholic also (my mother is catholic). I have gone and am attending catholic school for a number of years, so I am very well versed in the dogma also. Catholics don't really evangelize, it's pretty interesting.

hahah, actually I didn't really get the joke. Not trying to be asinine, but you asked.

As I said, one cannot condemn an entire faith based on past transgressions of it's followers. So I guess my race analogy does work, because your basing your bias on the same principles. Christianity as a strictly adhered to lifestyle of love and compassion would do the world a great good. However this doesn't happen so the institution of christianity, namely the catholic church give the faith a bad name.

Don't use the term "sheep" against them like that. They don't look at it anywhere close to what your implying. It's more like a frat, they are proclaiming their affiliation to Jesus.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

It doesn't?

no. and say the Catholic Church is the Church God set up for us and that it is theologically sound, then no it is not wrong for anyone to support it even if it behaves badly.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

no. and say the Catholic Church is the Church God set up for us and that it is theologically sound, then no it is not wrong for anyone to support it even if it behaves badly.



God didn't set up the Catholic chruch.

Paul did.

I can't believe we're still on this subject...

ok, you asked, "why we are supposed to gather together?" I know this is paraphrased, but it has the original intent. To answer, because the protestant church(I despise the Catholic church. I believe they've run-a-muc - that they are riddled with corruption.. you get the pic) one, the church does do great good, and secondly because the bible says to not forsake the gathering together. Each of these will be discussed briefly.

1. This should be fairly obvious. The church takes up collections (shouldn't be to get nicer buildings; well, bigger maybe.. but gaudy churches are a poor representation of good stewardship of money) to support lotte moon, and various others. This money then goes to support missionaries in and out of the country and also to help the homeless/starving in and out of country. Also, since we are told to gather ourselves(covered next) there has to be a building to gather in(for weather purposes) and that does take money. secondly, if the minister is worth his salt, his ONLY profession is to be a minister. As a result, he must either live with the congregation(worse than an in-law when you try to have sex with your wife) or he has to receive a salary. These should be very obvious.

2. Do not forsake the assemblying of yourselves. another pretty self explanatory statement. For one, God SAYS to do it and second this serves as a boost for moral. If an individual is only ever around individuals who live their lives in direct opposition to his/her own, it is very easy to start slipping to wrong ways little by little (spirit is willing but the flesh is weak - also shows everyone is fallible even christians); however, if you surround yourselves with people of like mind, you can take strength and comfort from the strength of others.

If I haven't been PERFECTLY clear on these two concepts..... please, post your question and then hit yourself over the head.

People still support the church because, A- none of that stuff even occured in their lifetime. Very stupid to hold anyone living responsible at all, and B- people honestly dont give a fuck when other people die. Deep down, no one cares. All that faggy shit on TV is just mass hysteria and the result of guilt because you are told it is supposed to feel bad when you hear that 800 yhears ago some jews were killed in Spain. Who gives a shit? You dont. These poser empty little kids with their spontaneously generated moral high ground are so transparent. Keep railing on about how horrible it is that some people were killed, you just make it more and more obvbious that you are trying to come to terms with the fact that inside, this changes nothing in you.

I think maybe you are casting your beliefs/views on these guys. While I may be wrong... well, I'm not I guess. I know that I'm sorry that those people died however many there were. Majority if not all were probably not believers. If that was the case, that was a lot of souls that were lost.

there may be some here that feel the same as you, but it is a little assumptive to say that everyone believes as you.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



God didn't set up the Catholic chruch.

Paul did.

Jesus did and St. Peter was the first Pope

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

People still support the church because, A- none of that stuff even occured in their lifetime. Very stupid to hold anyone living responsible at all,

I don't think so.

quote:and B- people honestly dont give a fuck when other people die. Deep down, no one cares. All that faggy shit on TV is just mass hysteria and the result of guilt because you are told it is supposed to feel bad when you hear that 800 yhears ago some jews were killed in Spain. Who gives a shit?

Ever hear of the Beatitudes? How about the Ten Commandments? If this is the attitude of the Christians in the world, I don't think I'm being at all overdramatic when i say, "they do not follow the teachings of Jesus, in the least."

quote:You dont.

I do.

quote:These poser empty little kids with their spontaneously generated moral high ground are so transparent. Keep railing on about how horrible it is that some people were killed, you just make it more and more obvbious that you are trying to come to terms with the fact that inside, this changes nothing in you.

You have obviously not read my past post about my struggling with my own high moral ground and my strict moral standards.

quote:can't believe we're still on this subject...

ok, you asked, "why we are supposed to gather together?" I know this is paraphrased, but it has the original intent. To answer, because the protestant church(I despise the Catholic church. I believe they've run-a-muc - that they are riddled with corruption.. you get the pic) one, the church does do great good, and secondly because the bible says to not forsake the gathering together. Each of these will be discussed briefly.

1. This should be fairly obvious. The church takes up collections (shouldn't be to get nicer buildings; well, bigger maybe.. but gaudy churches are a poor representation of good stewardship of money) to support lotte moon, and various others. This money then goes to support missionaries in and out of the country and also to help the homeless/starving in and out of country. Also, since we are told to gather ourselves(covered next) there has to be a building to gather in(for weather purposes) and that does take money. secondly, if the minister is worth his salt, his ONLY profession is to be a minister. As a result, he must either live with the congregation(worse than an in-law when you try to have sex with your wife) or he has to receive a salary. These should be very obvious.

Ok, I'll put out this one example. Without using the corruption in the Catholic church.

When I was in prison, I had the oppertunity (or punishment) of watching Black Evangelism on BET every sunday. One thing that I noticed about almost every single episode was that the preacher would stand up on his podium and preach about how the congregation should give.

Now, where I have a problem with this is, most of the congregations were looking pretty poor. And the preacher would be wearing shiny three-piece Armani suits and quite shiny gold watches, I suspect they were Rolexes.

Now, I may be sitting on my moral high ground, but I think that a preacher, who is preacher the message of Jesus, should follow Jesus' example of how to live. That is NOT lving in large houses in nice clothes. That sounds much more like the pharisees of his day. The gall to have all that, and ask these poor people to give what they have, escapes my mind.

quote:

2. Do not forsake the assemblying of yourselves. another pretty self explanatory statement. For one, God SAYS to do it and second this serves as a boost for moral. If an individual is only ever around individuals who live their lives in direct opposition to his/her own, it is very easy to start slipping to wrong ways little by little (spirit is willing but the flesh is weak - also shows everyone is fallible even christians); however, if you surround yourselves with people of like mind, you can take strength and comfort from the strength of others.

Here, you assuming that the Bible is The Word Of God. It is not. Have you ever heard of The Book of Thomas? It's not in the bible, but it was written by a disciple of Jesus? Why? Because it doesn't have the same message that the other books have. The Bible, especially the New Testament is the work of Man. From the time it was written (it's mostly letters from disciples to other people, hardly the word of god) to the time in the first few centuries of Christianity when it was revised, to the middle ages when it was revised, to KJV when it was rewritten.

Of course the Bible will say to band together, it's much easier to control people's mind when they are all together thinking the same thing.

quote:

If I haven't been PERFECTLY clear on these two concepts..... please, post your question and then hit yourself over the head.



Ok.

_______________________________

Now, where I have a problem with this is, most of the congregations were looking pretty poor. And the preacher would be wearing shiny three-piece Armani suits and quite shiny gold watches, I suspect they were Rolexes.

Now, I may be sitting on my moral high ground, but I think that a preacher, who is preacher the message of Jesus, should follow Jesus' example of how to live. That is NOT lving in large houses in nice clothes. That sounds much more like the pharisees of his day. The gall to have all that, and ask these poor people to give what they have, escapes my mind.

_______________________________

If you reply to things I say, please read the whole bit. I believe I remember saying that I think it is despicable of churches with showy structures. I assumed you see where this is going? structures, clothing, jewelry all point to the same thing.. look at me, I like money. I like you, do not agree with this. I think it's extremely wrong and sends the wrong impression to individuals like you. I also KNOW that not everyone who claims to be christian is a christian OR the care nothing for what they once were so now live the life of a sinner yet still claim otherwise.

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From the time it was written (it's mostly letters from disciples to other people, hardly the word of god) to the time in the first few centuries of Christianity when it was revised, to the middle ages when it was revised, to KJV when it was rewritten.

______________________________________

I guess I have to spell this out for you also. Ok, the Bible says that the word of God was inspired through the Holy Spirit. Now, what do you think that means? Holy Spirit convicted a writer to share wisdom to another group or to tell history. Also, let's get back to what I said earlier(you seriously don't read what people write do you?!) you need to read the original texts(not original but very close to original. all later and early texts match pretty much to a 'T') to know what God was saying THROUGH man before prejudice.

It should have been obvious... I just broke it down barney style for you.