Yep, you guessed it, it's an illusion.

How could you have "free will" unless you were omniscient?

No dude, the argument is, "How can we have free will if God is omniscient."

It's ages old, and yet again, as almost always in this forum, it will just boil down to faith and opinions.

Well I will just throw this in to the mix.

If you are not a deist and believe God is omniscient...it does not necessarily mean God will intervene. Just because 'God' is everywhere and knows everything doesn't denote that God will/does control what you think/decide/etc.

Either way, who needs true 'free will' when you have reason.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

Well I will just throw this in to the mix.

If you are not a deist and believe God is omniscient...it does not necessarily mean God will intervene. Just because 'God' is everywhere and knows everything doesn't denote that God will/does control what you think/decide/etc.



Your thinking omnipresent. Omniscient means all-knowing.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



Your thinking omnipresent. Omniscient means all-knowing.



That's what he said. He said "knows everything". That's the same as all-knowing.

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UnCus receives +1

having free will really has nothing to do with being omniscent. it all deals with being able to control aspects of your life and what you call "fate" or "destiny" god does not decide what a person will do in the course of a day, the individual does. If somewhere there were a divine notebook of sorts, that listed every possible action and every possible consequence, god would have to be constantly revising it, because humans, as a species, are erratic, abstract beings who act on free will rather than what some great illusion says.

someone once said that since God knows the outcome of all events then all events are planned hence there is not such thing as free will. Once again, a misinterpretation.

think as our lives as a path that branches. Each branch represents a choice in our lives. God knows what the end result will be based on the decisions that WE make. So, he does know the future, but there are many futures because some choices are yet to be made.

quote:Originally posted by choytw:

someone once said that since God knows the outcome of all events then all events are planned hence there is not such thing as free will. Once again, a misinterpretation.

think as our lives as a path that branches. Each branch represents a choice in our lives. God knows what the end result will be based on the decisions that WE make. So, he does know the future, but there are many futures because some choices are yet to be made.

your not making your point.

You saying that God knows every possible future? well than God also know which exact "future" will happen, if he's omniscient, if you dont agree change the word describing him. Because omniscient is an extreme, there is no grey area. You can't say god knows everything if doesn't know the exact outcome or "future". Your argument works fine if you don't call god omniscient. However most christians are insistent on this, therefore wrong.

Whta religions say that God plans out everything?

Christianity does not, if it did that means God was just being an asshole to Job because he already knew he would not crack.



[This message has been edited by MasterPython (edited 08-20-2004).]

This conversation is going nowhere fast. Define your terms guys, then the answer is apparent. Or, at least, that's how it ought to work.

And if it is predetermined you can't be held responsible for any action you do.

Someone told me you are your expirences...

quote:Originally posted by AI:

And if it is predetermined you can't be held responsible for any action you do.

Someone told me you are your expirences...

That's why God's omniscience is ridiculous. Sorta, you can be held accountable for your actions, because you have the illusion of free will. I vowed to never use this parallel, but it's like the matrix. If it seems compeltely real to you, then you can't tell the difference. You have "free will", god knows you don't.

quote:Originally posted by AI:

And if it is pre-determined you can't be held responsible for any action you do.

Someone told me you are your experiences...

I bet there is (some) truth to that, Grasshoppa.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I don't believe in pre-determinism OR free will. I reject Cartesian Dualism, or the Ghost in the Machine.

I do kind of think we are subservient slaves to the memes we are exposed to until we can realize that there is no master commandeer behind the "helm" of our thoughts. IMHO, getting past all that mind-clutter and breaking past the strong influence of cultural manipulation is the only path to true enlightenment.

It's really difficult. I am nowhere close.

Consider: God knows the outcome, therefore it is logical to assume he knows the "choices" that were made. Even if we are granted some peripheral "freedom", the outcome remains known. In order to be able to see both the present and future, God must exist outside of space-time. This suggests that the book is already written. We percieve a choice, because we don't have the luxury of skipping to the next page. God however, is the author. Whether or not He frequently edits is up for debate.