Mormonism is interesting to me in the fact that unlike the other major religions, whose orgins go back 2000+ years, the origins of Mormonism are easily investigated, going back only to the early 19th century.

It is surprising to me that so many people are extremely devoted to this church, despite the fact that a majority of the historical evidence shows that it was invented by Joseph Smith for his own personal gain.

exmormon.org (http://exmormon.org)

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

So, doesn't this cast doubt on all other major religions, whose origins have been made hazy by the passage of time?

Couldn't you logically start with something similar to Mormonism, age it 2000 years, and end up with something similar to modern-day Christianity, for example?

Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 08-18-2004).]

gwned

i don't think Jesus and the Apostles profited much from Christianity.

Oh they did Zman, they did.

Jesus just took a hit for the team. It was just a precursor to the richest corporation on earth I like to call the Catholic church.

that's pretty dumb...I hope you're not serious..Jesus took one for the team, huh? Ok.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

i don't think Jesus and the Apostles profited much from Christianity.

I'm not talking about profiting in the sense of making money, I'm talking about in the sense of power.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:



Couldn't you logically start with something similar to Mormonism, age it 2000 years, and end up with something similar to modern-day Christianity, for example?

Just a thought.



One thing they certainly share in common with Christianity is the ability to herd followers, spread the word, and "keep it alive". Fellowshipping and recruiting is what these people do best. I feel it is secondary that their truths be real truths, or their origins be old or new, or that the basic morals are much the same, and they parallel Christianity. The fact that they can infect so many minds and survive purely through word-of-mouth and ancient (or not so ancient) texts is what blows my mind. One thing that could be learned from the Mormons is that whoever created the ideas behind the faith definitely modeled itself after the successful, long-lasting Christian faith system.

IMPLANT the ideas in their heads

REPLICATE them as often as possible

SURVIVE by repeating steps 1 and 2 as quickly, efficiently, and powerfully as possible

That is why so many people are extremely devoted to this church, despite the fact that a majority of the historical evidence shows that it was invented by Joseph Smith for his own personal gain.

It's a powerful meme. That's all.

I'm very serious Zman.

It's like when your going on a blind double date with your friend and his gf's friend. But she's really ugly, but you stick with her for your friends benefit.

That's just like Jesus

how?

Keep in mind that Mormonism is simply an edifice of Christianity. I constant feel to be one of the only Mormon on totse, though i'm not active. I've looked into and studied most forms and fashions of Christianity as well as Judaism, it appears that aside from the role of Angels in the Hebrew faith, there's not much difference between the principles of the two.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Oh they did Zman, they did.

Jesus just took a hit for the team. It was just a precursor to the richest corporation on earth I like to call the Catholic church.



Hahahaha, thats one of the smartest statements I've ever seen. Yeah, really, he certainly did, and all of his followers ditched him and kept denying him until he finally died. Only then did they spread the word. Except they charged in their own fashion.

NotAJew, did you know there's actual evidence that Mormonism is false?

http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm

That website lays it all out.

In a nutshell:

The ENTIRE mormon faith rests on the abilities of Joseph Smith's god-given "seer" ability, The Book of Mormon as well as JS' retranslation of the Bible depend on it.

So, in 1835, an archologist found an ancient egyption papyri. At the time, the language on the page were unreadable. Many people were invited to try their hand at translating the script, including your prophet, Joseph Smith.

Smith translated it and said it contained the words of Abraham as well as Joseph of Egypt. The translated text of the papyri is part of "A Pearl of Great Price", which along with "Doctrine and Covenants", The Book of Mormon, and the Smith re-translation of the Bible make up all of Mormon scripture.

However, since the discovery of the rosetta stone, we are able to translate egyptian heiroglyphics. Needless to say, the documents that Smith "translated" don't have ANYTHING to do with Abraham, Joseph, or anything else he said they did.

So, Joseph Smith did not translate correctly. It is highly unlikely that he was able to translate the golden plates that make up the Book of Mormon if he could not correctly translate this document.

Sorry,

thebishop

EDIT: i should say that the fact that he translated wrong itself doesn't prove mormonism false. I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he couldn't translate Egyptian. Afterall, the language of the golden plates was probably not the same language on the papyri (even though no one's seen the plates ;-)). The damning part is that Smith was sure he translated correctly. If he had said "i can't translate this language", it wouldn't be as bad. HE got greedy, and in my opinion it cost him his movement.

sad.

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 08-22-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

NotAJew, did you know there's actual evidence that Mormonism is false?

http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm

That website lays it all out.

In a nutshell:

The ENTIRE mormon faith rests on the abilities of Joseph Smith's god-given "seer" ability, The Book of Mormon as well as JS' retranslation of the Bible depend on it.

So, in 1835, an archologist found an ancient egyption papyri. At the time, the language on the page were unreadable. Many people were invited to try their hand at translating the script, including your prophet, Joseph Smith.

Smith translated it and said it contained the words of Abraham as well as Joseph of Egypt. The translated text of the papyri is part of "A Pearl of Great Price", which along with "Doctrine and Covenants", The Book of Mormon, and the Smith re-translation of the Bible make up all of Mormon scripture.

However, since the discovery of the rosetta stone, we are able to translate egyptian heiroglyphics. Needless to say, the documents that Smith "translated" don't have ANYTHING to do with Abraham, Joseph, or anything else he said they did.

So, Joseph Smith did not translate correctly. It is highly unlikely that he was able to translate the golden plates that make up the Book of Mormon if he could not correctly translate this document.

Sorry,

thebishop

EDIT: i should say that the fact that he translated wrong itself doesn't prove mormonism false. I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he couldn't translate Egyptian. Afterall, the language of the golden plates was probably not the same language on the papyri (even though no one's seen the plates ;-)). The damning part is that Smith was sure he translated correctly. If he had said "i can't translate this language", it wouldn't be as bad. HE got greedy, and in my opinion it cost him his movement.

sad.

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 08-22-2004).]

The Golden Plates have been proved false as well. The farmers who were in on the hoax confessed, and the Mormon Church itself admitted that they did not exist!

dum da dum da dum da dum!

smart smart smart smart smart!

you saw that episode too? I just saw it the other day for the first time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Social Junker:

[B]Mormonism is interesting to me in the fact that unlike the other major religions, whose orgins go back 2000+ years, the origins of Mormonism are easily investigated, going back only to the early 19th century.

It is surprising to me that so many people are extremely devoted to this church, despite the fact that a majority of the historical evidence shows that it was invented by Joseph Smith for his own personal gain.

exmormon.org (http://exmormon.org)

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

So, doesn't this cast doubt on all other major religions, whose origins have been made hazy by the passage of time?

Couldn't you logically start with something similar to Mormonism, age it 2000 years, and end up with something similar to modern-day Christianity, for example?

Just a thought.

This is coming from a person who is a mormon. (trichocereus pachanoi's girl friend) if you truly knew anything about being a latter day saint which is the correct name then you would know that our roots go as far back as any religion actually further... so before you pollute peoples minds with propaganda research what your debating first. i was not raised in the latter day church i was raised catholic, therefore i made a choice on what to believe it was not just stored in my head. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God it is fact not opionion. the things he suffered to bring the restored gospel to the earth it bore no personal gain he was beaten, persecuted, so you tell me how a simple farm boy if you truly believe he made it all up was able to con so many people? he had little education, and could barely read. then how can he do this without the Lords help. He died to do the Lords will. what gain did he have from this?!?

Well, I dated a mormon (latterday saint)girl for 2 years, went to church with her regularly, and myself considered joining the church even after we broke up, so i don't think i'm coming from a close minded or ignorant viewpoint.

I assume by "going back further" than major religions (which, most of which date themselves back to the creation(s)), you're talking about pre-existance, which is the mormon (latterday saint) idea that we exist before God sends us on our "mission" on earth but we don't know about it because of the "veil", which makes us forget about our pre-existance.

This is one of many interesting philsophical questions/ideas raised by the mormon (latterday saint) church. We wouldn't have any of these questions to debate if you "prophet" didn't translate them from the Golden Plates (which no one has ever seen).

Unfortunately, your "Prophet's" translation abilities have been proven dubious, actually, non-existant. If Joseph Smith had translated the papyri correctly, it would be almost irrefutable truth that the man was an intrument of God. Sadly, that's not the case. You're correct that your church's roots would date back to before the creation of this planet, *IF* your church was true. But your church's messenger doesn't have very much credibility. You say that it's a FACT that Joseph Smith is a "true prophet of God", but you have no evidence.

I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and that he died for our sins. I believe it so much that i would be willing to die for it if there was such an opportunity. But i can't say that it is a FACT because i have no evidence of that. Which brings me to my next point:

Good intentions and suffering don't make something true. He could have been insane for one thing. I don't personally believe that, but you have to acknowledge that it's possible that Joseph Smith seriously thought he was restoring the true church of God, but actually hillucinated his visions of Moroni.

I personally doubt this scenario. It seems more likely to me that he just had the idea and ran with it. Lots of cult-leaders (not that your church is a cult) have conned people into believing something that wasn't true. Many of the modern cults had more factual basis than the mormon (latterday saint) church does/did.

I'm sorry that i have to say these things about your faith. Although i believe in Jesus, I am generally slow to say that anyone else's religion is false. However, in the case of Mormonism there's too much evidence to ignore. And I remember once standing before a congregation on testimony day, and telling them all that the church was true. But sadly, i was mistaken. All those people as far as i know are good, honorable people, even the bishop, who i respect quite a bit. It doesn't make them any less good people because they believe in something that's not true. I'm not sure what it does mean. Maybe it's better to believe in a falsehood that makes you do honorable things than to believe in nothing and do nothing of worth.

Either way, a year or two after i was sure that Mormonism (latterday saints) was false, i found Jesus (whom Mormons (latterday saints)) supposedly believe in, and felt much more confident in the teachings of the New Testament than i ever did in the Book of Mormon. I'd encourage you to do the same.

Sorry,

theBishop

yeah, well I'm a Catholic, it's my girlfriend who's a Mormon, and I don't see anything wrong with what they do at their Church, personally I believe that every Christian Church is a Church of God, but the reason that there is so many different "Splinter Groups"is just because people are unique and individual, and a square peg can't worship at a round hole.

this is in response to bishop, thank you for your comments i respect them. although you fail to realise that i have questioned, i have searched for truth, i have considered that maybe joseph smith got so caught up in his lie that he started believing it himself. it does happen i know. BUT i do have evidence that Joseph smith was a true prophet of the only God. The evidence comes from a Higher power. What more do i need? do people not get whats written on the book of mormon?... "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". Jospeh Smith didnt try to start a brand new church. he was chosen to restore the one and only true church. It is simply more evidence that the Holy Bible is true and that our hevenly father is our creator, and that Jesus Christ is his Son our saviour. I'm glad you still believe in the saviour. In the end what else really matters?? thats my main point. I've never understood why people would speak so cruelly of people that are just trying to live the best way they can. our rules are strict and clear cut. there are no loop holes. which causes no confusion on the things that we need to do in order to return home to our heavenly father? i'm sorry you lost faith in the church, but you respect it, therefore i respect you and your thoughts. the things that lead me to the church you wouldn't believe. this is how i know that it is fact. i respected all religions including mormons but i wouldnt go near them just now and then say hi. becoz i did have my own belief and my own ways. if i was raised in the church myabe your could question my faith. but i wasnt therefore i dont believe you can at least not to the same extent

from Trichocereus Pachanoi's Missus.

Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father); NOTES

- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);

- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven); NOTES

- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978); NOTES

- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities); NOTES

so there niggerlovers now...

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father); NOTES

- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);

- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven); NOTES

- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978); NOTES

- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities); NOTES

so there niggerlovers now...

I was with you until the "niggerlovers" thing. What's your problem man? If your gonna be racist go to Spurious, The Arch1tect loves that shit.

Yeah, and I always saw the Mormons as racist, don't they have some ridiculous theories on Native Americans and people of other races? If anyone knows, post some links or explain.

I'm sure you have searched for the truth if you convered of your own free will, i have to assume that people don't take that lightly.

But you can't base your life on a "burning in your breast", i get that same burning at "normal" churches, or hell, i had the same burning at a Radiohead concert! Sure i wasn't seeing God there (or maybe...).

"Restoring the church of christ" is just something Mormons (latterday saints) say. Muslims if i'm not mistaken, believe the old testament to be true, and they don't require any retranslations. But Joseph Smith had to "reshape" the bible so that it would fit more nicely with the changes presented by his "true" church.

Regarding Jesus, like i said, i went to a mormon (latterday saint) church with some regularity for about 2 years. In that two years i never heard once about Jesus' resurrection. I did hear a lot about Joseph Smith though. Mormons (latterday saints) would like to be considered a sect of Christianity. But they don't seem to put much emphasis on Christ.

Let me be totally clear. The strict moral code that mormons (latterday saints) live by is admirable. I'm not taking anything away from you there. But again, would you live the same way if a document turned up proving Joseph Smith was a fraud? If such a document turned up about Jesus, i'd definitely be questioning my faith. Roghtfully so, but such a document EXISTS regarding Joseph Smith, and you just gloss it over. How can you do that? I simply resuse to believe that your faith is so strong that proof that your faith is misguided doesn't sway you at all.

And when your church encourages you to go door to door pedling your religion for 2 years are you gonna wonder if you're doing the right thing by perpetuating something that might not be true?

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Oh they did Zman, they did.

Jesus just took a hit for the team. It was just a precursor to the richest corporation on earth I like to call the Catholic church.

And the two have nothing to do with each other.

Jesus did not say, "Go forth, and build the Catholic church."

Catholicism was created by man...Christianity finds it's origins in the followers of "Christ".

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

I'm not talking about profiting in the sense of making money, I'm talking about in the sense of power.

I don't see any "true" Christians profiting.

The evangelicals profit, but I don't find their behavior doctrinal.

The Catholic church profits, but I don't find their teachings (for the most part) to be doctrinal, either.

God never told his people to rob the nations blind.

The Bible instructs us to tithe 10% of our income to the church, to assist in missionary/welfare work.

But that's just about money...

The pastor I grew up with is the most humble man I know...and every pastor affiliated with the non-denominational Christian teaching carry the same humility. Ever heard of Chuck Smith ?

This is not to say it cannot happen...men will be men, and our flesh is naturally arrogant and greedy. The key is to repent of such things...

At any rate, I haven't gained any popularity from being a Christian. In fact, it has been quite the opposite, from my experience.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

One thing they certainly share in common with Christianity is the ability to herd followers, spread the word, and "keep it alive". Fellowshipping and recruiting is what these people do best. I feel it is secondary that their truths be real truths, or their origins be old or new, or that the basic morals are much the same, and they parallel Christianity. The fact that they can infect so many minds and survive purely through word-of-mouth and ancient (or not so ancient) texts is what blows my mind. One thing that could be learned from the Mormons is that whoever created the ideas behind the faith definitely modeled itself after the successful, long-lasting Christian faith system.

IMPLANT the ideas in their heads

REPLICATE them as often as possible

SURVIVE by repeating steps 1 and 2 as quickly, efficiently, and powerfully as possible

That is why so many people are extremely devoted to this church, despite the fact that a majority of the historical evidence shows that it was invented by Joseph Smith for his own personal gain.

It's a powerful meme. That's all.



Herd ? Infect ? Recruit ?

You are wrong, darlin'. The reason Christianity is alive and well today has nothing to do with the works of man. The inerrant sense that there is SOME purpose to life that we are all born with is the reason. The origin of that sense ? Our souls.

If it were up to man, we'd have all killed each other long ago, God be damned.

I didn't become a Christian because someone recruited me. As a matter of fact, I rebelled against God for MANY painful years.

You definitely have a skewed perception of the Christian faith. (based on what I have just read from you)

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

I'm very serious Zman.

It's like when your going on a blind double date with your friend and his gf's friend. But she's really ugly, but you stick with her for your friends benefit.

That's just like Jesus

Hmmm...Jesus had a prophecy to fulfill. He was sent to die for the sin of the world, so that salvation could be offered to everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike, freely.

He had no friends. He was the messenger, who happened to have loyal followers. (the disciples)

I don't see how that's taking one for the team.

He IS the team, and we all seek to be a part of it.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:This is coming from a person who is a mormon. (trichocereus pachanoi's girl friend) if you truly knew anything about being a latter day saint which is the correct name then you would know that our roots go as far back as any religion actually further... so before you pollute peoples minds with propaganda research what your debating first. i was not raised in the latter day church i was raised catholic, therefore i made a choice on what to believe it was not just stored in my head. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God it is fact not opionion. the things he suffered to bring the restored gospel to the earth it bore no personal gain he was beaten, persecuted, so you tell me how a simple farm boy if you truly believe he made it all up was able to con so many people? he had little education, and could barely read. then how can he do this without the Lords help. He died to do the Lords will. what gain did he have from this?!?



And what "Biblical" text acknowledges Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God ?

The Bible specifically states that there will be false prophets, and teachers of the law.

I don't know what Bible you're reading from, but Joseph Smith is not God's Bible.

The guy was arrogant, delusional, and possessed.

I think it is YOU who should do some research about your own faith before you go attacking those that see the "truth" about the cult of the LDS.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:



so you tell me how a simple farm boy if you truly believe he made it all up was able to con so many people? he had little education, and could barely read. then how can he do this without the Lords help. He died to do the Lords will. what gain did he have from this?!?



I know it's hard to not believe what your Church tells you, but Joseph Smith was not a "simple farm boy".

quote:

Originally said by a former Mormon of 20 years:



The church has been deceitful in its creating the image of Joseph Smith as an unlearned country boy. He was very intelligent and capable of reading at a high level and memorizing enormous materials. The primary source for the Book of Mormon was a book written by a man named Ethan Smith (no relation) who lived a short distance from Joseph and was a minister to a family none other than Oliver Cowdery's. This book is called the View of the Hebrews and was written in 1823 and republished in 1825. This book contained everything Joseph Smith needed to create the Book of Mormon.





Also...

quote:



Here is a simple example of how Joseph Smith was a fraud. You can read this in the official Mormon History, but few Mormons ever bother to read it. Some farmers in Kinderhook devised a hoax and made up some copper plates which they claimed contained ancient writings. They planted them in an Indian burial mound and later dug them up again. When Smith saw the plates, he immediately "translated" part of them, which (he claimed in his diary) identified the writings as from "a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh...". Here is the exact quote from the Documentary History of the Church:

"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters."

"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth. "

For many years, the church claimed that these plates were authentic ancient writings, in spite of the fact that the farmers later admitted the hoax - evidently the fact that Smith had translated part of them made it too embarrassing to accept the hoax. After resorting to more and more implausible and desperate arguments, the church flip-flopped about 10 years ago, and now admits that the plates are phony. The 1981 August Ensign has the statement where the church admits that the plates were a hoax. Of course, this leaves them with the embarrassing quote from Smith's diary.... In spite of the fact that this quote is confirmed by contemporary newspaper reports, they conclude that THIS has to be a false report (indeed, many supposed entries in Smith's diary are generally regarded as fraudulent -- something that church historians don't like to emphasize).





Also, you say he "died to do the Lord's will". Well......

quote:



The Nauvoo Expositor was going to publish a polygamy expose on Joseph Smith. He ordered the press destroyed, and the order was carried out. He was arrested for it. That was the specific charge that landed him in jail. Bottom line being that Smith wasn't killed because of his religious beliefs, but because of his repeated lies and crimes. And Smith had no intention of dying in Carthage Jail; he and friends had two smuggled pistols which they used against the mob. And on the morning of his death, Smith smuggled out a message to Nauvoo Legion commander Jonathan Dunham to come break them out of jail. Dunham declined to obey the order, because he knew that was illegal, since the Legion had been ordered disbanded by Governor Thomas Ford.

I don't understand why Mormons use this as proof Joe was a prophet. We experienced this same behavior from a so-called prophet as recently as 1993. If David Koresh wasn't really a prophet, why was he willing to die for it. He held out for 51 days after the initial shootout. He and others in the compound were injured in the initial shootout, yet they held on for another 51 days before the final siege that burned down the compound. Why go through all that suffering for a lie?





Just because someone dies for something, doesn't make it true.

I am not against the Church of LDS, I am for the truth, that's all. I would suggest that you examine the history of your church closely, and not believe everything the church leadership tells you.

[This message has been edited by Social Junker (edited 08-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

this is in response to bishop, thank you for your comments i respect them. although you fail to realise that i have questioned, i have searched for truth, i have considered that maybe joseph smith got so caught up in his lie that he started believing it himself. it does happen i know. BUT i do have evidence that Joseph smith was a true prophet of the only God. The evidence comes from a Higher power. What more do i need? do people not get whats written on the book of mormon?... "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". Jospeh Smith didnt try to start a brand new church. he was chosen to restore the one and only true church. It is simply more evidence that the Holy Bible is true and that our hevenly father is our creator, and that Jesus Christ is his Son our saviour. I'm glad you still believe in the saviour. In the end what else really matters?? thats my main point. I've never understood why people would speak so cruelly of people that are just trying to live the best way they can. our rules are strict and clear cut. there are no loop holes. which causes no confusion on the things that we need to do in order to return home to our heavenly father? i'm sorry you lost faith in the church, but you respect it, therefore i respect you and your thoughts. the things that lead me to the church you wouldn't believe. this is how i know that it is fact. i respected all religions including mormons but i wouldnt go near them just now and then say hi. becoz i did have my own belief and my own ways. if i was raised in the church myabe your could question my faith. but i wasnt therefore i dont believe you can at least not to the same extent

from Trichocereus Pachanoi's Missus.

Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. This is STRICTLY enforced as a sin, as of the New Testament (and the covenant of marriage).

He was also a murderer.

After being excommunicated from the church for opposing Joseph's polygamy and unbiblical teachings (e.g. a plurality of gods), William Law, a citizen of Nauvoo, along with several associates, founded The Nauvoo Expositor (a newspaper exposing these doctrines and practices of the "fallen prophet"). Upon the newspaper’s first issue, Joseph, as mayor of the city, declared the press a public nuisance. The city marshal, along with hundreds of Mormon men, destroyed the press and office of the Expositor. This event eventually led to Joseph's incarceration in Carthage, Illinois.

On June 27, 1844, an armed mob attacked the Carthage jail. Although Joseph shot three of the intruders (killing two) with a handgun that had been smuggled into the jail, both he and his brother, Hiram, were overwhelmed and killed.

I do believe one of the ten commandments is "thou shalt not murder".

If he was such an inspired prophet of God, don't you think he would have been able to accurately decipher the teachings of the Bible ? Why would he need to add to a Bible that God had already deemed complete ?

While Mormons hold strong allegiance to the Book of Mormon, it is interesting to note that it contains very little distinctly Mormon doctrine. It does not teach a plurality of gods, that humans may progress to godhood, temple marriage, or baptism for the dead.

The first Article of Faith of the Mormon church reads: "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." While this may sound Christian at first glance, upon further examination it is found to be radically different. The Mormon church explicitly rejects the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Said Joseph Smith, "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; emphasis added).

To clarify, there are MANY differences between mormonism and Christianity:

MORMONISM

The belief in MANY gods

Joseph Smith taught, "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370; emphasis added).

CHRISTIANITY

The belief in ONE Trinitarian God

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, the Son is God (John 1:1; 20:28) and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4); and that they are distinct Persons in the Godhead—not to be confused with one another (Matthew 28:19; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6). There is only one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 1 Corinthians 8:4).

MORMONISM

The belief that God, Once a Man, Progressed to Godhood

Joseph Smith taught, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man. . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . [H]e was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. . ." (Ibid., 345, 346; italics in original).

CHRISTIANITY

The belief that God Has Always Been God

God has always been God (Genesis 21:33; Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 40:28). God is spirit, not an exalted man with flesh and bone (John 4:24; Luke 24:39; Hosea 11:9; Numbers 23:19). God does not change (Malachi 3:6), nor does he grow in knowledge (Isaiah 40:13). There is none like him, he is unique, he is the only true God (Exodus 8:10; 2 Samuel 7:22; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5, 21-22; 46:9; 1 Corinthians 8:5). (Note that though Jesus, being God, did become human in his incarnation [John 1:1, 14], this is quite different from a man progressing to become a god.)

MORMONISM

The belief that Humans Can Become Gods

Joseph Smith taught, "Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you" (Ibid., 346).

CHRISTIANITY

The belief that Humans Cannot Become Gods

Men cannot become gods (Isaiah 43:10). Man is a created being, unlike God—who has always been (Genesis 21:33). God will not share his glory with another (Isaiah 42:8).

MORMONISM

The belief that the Bible is corrupted and incomplete

Gordon B. Hinckley wrote, "Latter-day Saints recognize that errors have crept into this sacred work because of the manner in which the book has come to us. Moreover, they regard it as not being complete as a guide" (Hinckley, What of the Mormons?, 26).

CHRISTIANITY

The belief that the Bible is reliable and sufficient

God has promised that his word, the Bible, would stand forever (Isaiah 40:3). We know that his word is true (John 17:17), contains wisdom unto salvation, and thoroughly equips God’s people for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). God has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:2).

MORMONISM

The belief that works are necessary to live with God forever (Salvation)

M Russell Ballard wrote, "Jesus Christ accomplished two incomparable feats through His atoning sacrifice. First, He conquered death, and as a result all people will have the privilege of everlasting life with a resurrected body. Second, He suffered the burden and pains of our sins so that we might have the privilege of eternal life in the presence of God if we have faith in Christ as our Savior and choose to repent of our sins and keep His commandments" (Ballard, Our Search for Happiness, 88).

CHRISTIANITY

The belief that salvation is based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ

The Bible never interprets mere resurrection as salvation (John 5:29). Those who receive Jesus will have eternal life, but the wrath of God remains on those who reject him (John 3:36). While Christians are called to keep God's commandments (e.g. John 14:15), salvation is in no way based on our own righteous deeds (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8). It is through the atonement of Christ that we are made perfect (Hebrews 10:13-18). The atonement took place, not in the Garden of Gethsemane but through his blood shed on the cross (Colossians 1:20; 1 Peter 2:24).

I think you get the point.

There is very little, if ANYTHING, Christian about the Mormon Church.

In the end, what really matters is that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Nothing needs to be added or taken away from it, and certainly not by the likes of a pompous, self-centered man like Joseph Smith.

It is great that you recognize Jesus Christ as the savior, but under what context ? In what heaven ? By what standards ?

Mormons believe that there are three heavenly kingdoms: the celestial, terrestrial and telestial. Mormons argue for this belief from 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 and 2 Corinthians 12:2 (where the apostle Paul says he was caught up to the "third heaven").

However, the context of 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 is the contrast between resurrection (celestial or heavenly) and pre-resurrection (terrestrial or earthly) bodies, not heavenly kingdoms. The Bible does speak of three heavens: the atmospheric heaven, where birds fly and from which the rains fall (Genesis 7:23;8:2); the astronomic heaven, where the stars and planets reside (Genesis 1:14, 15; 22:17); and the third heaven, the throne of God (Matthew 6:9; Revelation 4:2).

What about the Mormon priesthood authority? Is it biblical? Not at all. The Aaronic priesthood was to be held only by those of the tribe of Levi (Numbers 3:5-10). This priesthood was fulfilled by the atonement of Christ (Hebrews 7:11-28; 10:8-18); thus, making this priesthood no longer valid or necessary.

In the Old Testament, there was generally only one high priest. What the book of Hebrews teaches is that Jesus has fulfilled the Aaronic priesthood (meaning it is no longer in effect), and that he has permanently taken the position of high priest. Since he will never die, he will have no successors (Hebrews 7). Thus he is of the order of Melchizedek, without beginning or end of days. Therefore, his priesthood is "unchangeable" (v. 24; the Greek word is aparabatos, which literally means "untransferable"). We need no other high priest—no other mediator (1 Timothy 2:5).

I hope this clarifies some misconceptions about the "Christian" parallel to mormonism. It just doesn't exist.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Herd ? Infect ? Recruit ?

You are wrong, darlin'. The reason Christianity is alive and well today has nothing to do with the works of man. The inerrant sense that there is SOME purpose to life that we are all born with is the reason. The origin of that sense ? Our souls.



Of course it does. As pointed out above, there are entire cultures, whole multitudes of human beings who have never been exposed to your Christ. They were never herded together, infected with the doctrines, and recruited to tell others about it, to make the circle bigger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but God's voice doesn't bellow down from the clouds, spewing the "truths" and directing his creation on what to do with their lives.

The "inerrant sense" you speak of - if it's what you define as a soul, and since not all "souls" are just touched with a paranormal, special reckoning without ANY outside influence - why would one soul be more privvy to this than others?

- Darlin'

(edit) I wasn't picking on Christians. I just used them as an example.



[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 08-25-2004).]

it's kind of funny the things all of you have said.. one thing... on page one the guy who said we are "niggalovers"??... what the hell is up with that. That alone offends me! i myself am a Maori European. you should look that up... if you want to be a ignorant prick and bring racisim into this dont bring to me. half that crap you talked about is exactly that.. CRAP!. and bishop its got nothing to do with a burning feeling in my chest. not one thing. its got to do with events. I went to mass with my partner, who told me that he felt that burning in his chest. and i believe him. and yes to whoever stated that it was taught in the bible that there will be false prophets and all those things.... you think im stupid?? oh well you must if you think that i would enter into a church lightly after spending most my teen years being, a nonbeliever. but yes like everyone i needed something to believe. like i use to. i went into deppression, i left school, at one of my most vital years, i was taking 5 school C subjects, i left them all. i shut myself in my room. i wanted to rott to death. two weeks after i left school i got down on my knees and i prayed to someone i had refused to speak to in years. my words... "Lord i dont care if your not real i swear i will never doubt you again so long as you promise to never leave me no matter what i say or do." then my friend called and asked me to a party, i didnt want to go i had traped myself away for so long i was litterelly affraid to leave my house. but i heard a voice telling me to go, my life was about to change. so i pushed myself. when i was there two missionaries where walking home they stopped for awhile.. One was american and i use to love americans..more the accent that was really the only reason i talked to them, the other was a new zealander.. and when you live in new zealand you can find one of those anywhere. so it wasnt a big buzz....Not long after, they left again. exactly ONE WEEK! the american was shifted to my area.. i never told him where i lived not even what suburb he ended up knocking on my door. i had respect for all religions but i didnt like how the pushed baptisim... so they didnt try and teach me we were just friends. i knew them for about 6 - 7 months before i asked to learn about them. what ever reason God sent them to me. True church or not. after they brought there teachings to my life i've never looked back. NOT EVER! they are good people. i really dont care for your opionion of the church of Jesus Christ, they saved me from myself. i went back to school the following year. did two extra courses on the side, and took up my fave hobby.. latin and ballroom dancing, i studied vet nursing and hair dressing. i was accepted to study in a america for a year but ended going australia instead now.. im on my way to my dream. I'm a first year Fashion and design student with only 3 more years to go. i would have died that year, but the lord saved me. i didnt need the spirit to tell me what i already knew. oh and also to the person who said that we speak more of joseph smith than our saviour Jesus Christ what ward did you go to.. in my ward the prime people spoken of are... Our Hevenly Father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. i dont hate other relgions.. I love my Lord and even if i live LDS (mormon) Church, my faith in the Lord will not die. Not ever again.

From Trichocereus Pachanoi's Girlfriend (these views are NOT the views of Trichocereus Pachanoi himself)

Uhhhh..ok.

What I said was so misinterpretted I am not even going to try and sort it out for you.

I am glad that you have found your contentment in this life, and I wish you the best of luck.

Aww, that was sweet digSav (that's your new name).

Cool ! A "nickname" !! *lol*

Are you being facetious ?

Moi...sweet ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

Me and my friends say "sav" as slang for "savage". We started it with smoking weed. Like, "I took a savage hit". Thusly I was a "sav". Now we use it for all things that can be deemed savage.

Congrats Digi, your a sav.

*throws her hands in the air, tightly fisted*

I can now die a happy woman.



http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)