Ok so this crazy idea popped in my head last night, really late, so I was super tired. But let me feel this out...

Ok, so when I ask most serious christians what happens to people who don't hear about God or have minor contact with christians, most say that "god gives exceptions for their lives" things such as that. Basically God understands when someone didn't have sufficient knowledge to accept jesus, then they will probably be saved.

Well, why don't christians just shut the fuck up, so none of us hear about it, live good lives and get saved? That way, if your a genuinley good person, but just cannot accept Jesus, then you will be saved. And all the genuinley bad people, wont be guilt tripped into believing something, and will be damned as they should. Not damned just because they don't adhere to someones beliefes, but damned because they are seriously bad people. Seems alot more fair to me, if anyone actually should go to hell.

Well, what i'm basically trying to say is... If god understands if people dont hear about jesus, then why don't we all just not hear about jesus, (i.e. christians just shutting the hell up), and then the truly good people wont be having any problems.



This idea just came to me last night, so I haven't really been able to sort it out into more of an intelligent, less angry sounding, theory. But discuss it please, and I will probably form it better.

^^^ Amen

It realy depends on who you talk to. Dante says there is a special place in Hell for people who were born before the Christian faith. But Catholics have some wierd ideas about what happens when you die. They added in purgatory and limbo.

I've never heard a Christian say that ignorance of God was an excuse. Saying you didn't know of the existence of Jesus doesn't keep you from going to Hell, from what I heard. I think the Christian perspective is this: Believe in Christ, or go to Hell! There is no debate!

the Jews had to be circumsised to be able to go to heaven, and babtism is the new circumsision. So I think you have to be babtised to be able to go to heaven. Now, I don't think the hell or limbo or wherever unbabtized people go would be bad. It would be like heaven except no contact with God since they never knew God...I think, I've never really thought about this too much; but most theologians don't think that hell is the same for everyone.

Well whenever I post a question here or on a christian board asking what happens to people who had no or limited contact with christianity, they say that God gives "allowances" or something for them and they enter heaven.

So I was saying, why expose people to the faith if you are just forcing them to believe or go to hell. If you just kept your mouth shut, they would go to heaven or in Zmans case an equally great place without all the problems.

Yeah, Zman... I've thought about hell that way too, when I think from a Christian perspective.

After all, it could be quite a pleasant place, but the seclusion from god - that could very well be torture for some.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



So I was saying, why expose people to the faith if you are just forcing them to believe or go to hell. If you just kept your mouth shut, they would go to heaven or in Zmans case an equally great place without all the problems.

one reason people are exposed to the faith is because all the Christians can't just stop living their faith. Tear down all the buildings, burn the books, so no one knows about it. We live our faith, and people see that. And we send missionaries so that the world can be saved. Jesus commanded it. He wants people to go to heaven and be with Him. That's the objective.

Zman, what are you trying to say?

That spreading Gods word is justification for destroying cultures? That is an exscuse that has been used many times in the past to make slaughter seem like doing Gods work.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

one reason people are exposed to the faith is because all the Christians can't just stop living their faith. Tear down all the buildings, burn the books, so no one knows about it. We live our faith, and people see that. And we send missionaries so that the world can be saved. Jesus commanded it. He wants people to go to heaven and be with Him. That's the objective.



dude, you just countered what you posted above. If you thought that those people who never heard about god would still go to a great place, then why not just leave them the hell alone? It's bullshit. Either you think they will be going to hell, or you don't. Make up your mind.

whats dantes inferno?

its in a badass industrail death metal song by the berzerker so what the fuck is it???

quote:Originally posted by neX:

whats dantes inferno?

its in a badass industrail death metal song by the berzerker so what the fuck is it???

http://www.sfw.org.uk/books/inferno.html

Doesn't it say somewhere in the NT that one is judged by what is in their heart. I believe it is in Hebrews when discussing circumcised vs the uncircumcised. Not sure though.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Ok so this crazy idea popped in my head last night, really late, so I was super tired. But let me feel this out...

Ok, so when I ask most serious christians what happens to people who don't hear about God or have minor contact with christians, most say that "god gives exceptions for their lives" things such as that. Basically God understands when someone didn't have sufficient knowledge to accept jesus, then they will probably be saved.

Well, why don't christians just shut the fuck up, so none of us hear about it, live good lives and get saved? That way, if your a genuinley good person, but just cannot accept Jesus, then you will be saved. And all the genuinley bad people, wont be guilt tripped into believing something, and will be damned as they should. Not damned just because they don't adhere to someones beliefes, but damned because they are seriously bad people. Seems alot more fair to me, if anyone actually should go to hell.

Well, what i'm basically trying to say is... If god understands if people dont hear about jesus, then why don't we all just not hear about jesus, (i.e. christians just shutting the hell up), and then the truly good people wont be having any problems.



This idea just came to me last night, so I haven't really been able to sort it out into more of an intelligent, less angry sounding, theory. But discuss it please, and I will probably form it better.

Good idea, but you'd be even pulling the plug on alot of media, ALOT.

I doubt that ther is any conclusive response, but the first thing that sprang to my mind was the concept that salvation is more than just "a place to go where we die" (in the words of Bad Religion...hehe).

I believe that God's redemptive plan is very much about the here and now, and that it is very much about creation being reconciled to God in every aspect of its existence.

I didn't say anything about destroying cultures.

Jesus told us to go to the four corners of the world and spread the Word. The goal in our life is to have a relationship with God. And we are supposed to help other people achieve that. Even if some don't.

I never changed my mind about anything.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

I didn't say anything about destroying cultures.



No you didn't say anything specificly about destroying cultures but that is what missionaries do.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

No you didn't say anything specificly about destroying cultures but that is what missionaries do.



Yeah, seriously, check out South America, the missionaries really fucked up people there and started the whole slave labor thing with the native populations.

HAHAHA.

My favorite part of the early missionaries to South America, is when they would baptise newborn children, then slit their throats or smash them against a rock.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

No you didn't say anything specificly about destroying cultures but that is what missionaries do.



That's what culturally insensitive missioniaries have done and many still do.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Well, why don't christians just shut the fuck up, so none of us hear about it, live good lives and get saved?

Well, what i'm basically trying to say is... If god understands if people dont hear about jesus, then why don't we all just not hear about jesus, (i.e. christians just shutting the hell up), and then the truly good people wont be having any problems.

Well, for you and me (and everyone in MGCBtSOoYG), its too late...we've already heard.

As to people that have not had the opportunity to hear, no one really knows what God's plan is for them. Scripture indicates that God may be (somewhat) more lenient. But other than that, as a Christian, i'm just trying to follow the "Great Commission". And i hope that i present the Word honestly and try not to create too many stumbling blocks. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

OK, i can't back all this up with scripture, but i'm 99% sure its at least a biblically compatible interperetation, if not the actual truth.

First of all, NO one is in heaven right now. Everyone who's dead right now is just dead, or maybe in limbo if you believe in that (i dont). People won't go to heaven until after the rapture.

I've also been told (this is the part i'm not 100% on) that the rapture won't happen until everyone has had a chance to accept or reject Christ.

So, in conclusion, no one will go to hell without having an oppurtunity to reject Christ.

I've never heard of exceptions, i would be really skeptical of anyone who was pushing that idea.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

OK, i can't back all this up with scripture, but i'm 99% sure its at least a biblically compatible interperetation, if not the actual truth.

First of all, NO one is in heaven right now. Everyone who's dead right now is just dead, or maybe in limbo if you believe in that (i dont). People won't go to heaven until after the rapture.

I've also been told (this is the part i'm not 100% on) that the rapture won't happen until everyone has had a chance to accept or reject Christ.

So, in conclusion, no one will go to hell without having an oppurtunity to reject Christ.

I've never heard of exceptions, i would be really skeptical of anyone who was pushing that idea.



Alot of people have died without the opportunity to reject christ. What? do they get to choose after they die? Well then I want that too.

Doesn't work that way. You already chosen. I know that died without hearing thing is sort of a loophole, but that's the best explaination i can come up with.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Doesn't work that way. You already chosen. I know that died without hearing thing is sort of a loophole, but that's the best explaination i can come up with.

I know, it's bullshit. I wanna choose after I die, when Jesus comes up to me himself and goes, "eh, eh nigga, you choose me son?"

And I'll be like, "Yo, fo shos G, you still chiefin that ganj?"

And he'll be like, "Yeah nikka, hella puffin, come toke with me"

And I'll be like, "Yeah yeah homes, I got the skins, you got the bud?"

And he'll be like, "The stickiest of the ickiest, what is that, a swisha?"

And I'll be like, "Strawberry nigga"

And He'll be like, "Your saved son."

And I'll be like, "Hells yeah"

and that would be it.

that might be bad, but i though that was pretty funny. I'd like to think Jesus finds the humor in that

I have posted this elsewhere...just goes to show that no one pays any attention to scripture. *lol*

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This basically says that God has witheld Himself from NO one, no matter the level. He gives everyone the opportunity, because He is fair and just.

Hope this helps. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

This basically says that God has witheld Himself from NO one, no matter the level. He gives everyone the opportunity, because He is fair and just.

So other religions are right? Or does Jesus just show up after you die and give the heathens a chance?

No. What this means is that no man is without excuse, because to some extent we all will have heard of God.

This is why missionary work is so important.

This is why Christians try and spread the word of God...so that no one is left behind.

We know that some will still choose Hell, but the fact remains that they had the opportunity.

Unless you belive the Mormons are right the peoples of the Americas had no opportunity to hear about your God until Columbus or Cabot showed up. How did God make himself know to them?

Digital Savior, whenever I think about this subject a interesting question pops into my mind. You say God gives everyone the opportunity to believe in Him, right?

What about a man who has a very serious memory problem (this condition actually exists), he can only remember things for five minutes before he forgets them (this question was originally raised in an article I posted a little while ago about the existence of the soul). So he is basically living in the eternal present. In order for this man to have religion, he would have to be told the entire teachings of the religion in the space of five minutes, every five minutes, for the rest of his life. There is no way for this man to believe in God. Does God makes exceptions for this people?

Same question for Austrailian Aboringinies, Asians and Indians who never met a missionary and all non Jews who lived before Jesus. Almost all of these people were not murderers, rapists or anything horible like that. So are any of their religions or beliefs right? Does your God make exceptions? Or does he damn his creations without ever giving them a chance?

bump.



Yay! my discussion is starting to go somewhere. I was waiting for you Digital Savior, but you didn't really explain. I like when you use scripture, but you gotta directly address what these people, and I are asking.

Oh, and what about this scenario.

Ok you got all these indians, south america for example. The first contact they have with christianity are missionaries. These Missionaries proceed to take their newborn babies, baptise them, then kill them to insure their salvation.

So basically, these peoples impression on christianity is obviously skewed, how can they be expected to accept christ?

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Digital Savior, whenever I think about this subject a interesting question pops into my mind. You say God gives everyone the opportunity to believe in Him, right?

What about a man who has a very serious memory problem (this condition actually exists), he can only remember things for five minutes before he forgets them (this question was originally raised in an article I posted a little while ago about the existence of the soul). So he is basically living in the eternal present. In order for this man to have religion, he would have to be told the entire teachings of the religion in the space of five minutes, every five minutes, for the rest of his life. There is no way for this man to believe in God. Does God makes exceptions for this people?



Is that like "50 first (birth) dates"?

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Digital Savior, whenever I think about this subject a interesting question pops into my mind. You say God gives everyone the opportunity to believe in Him, right?

What about a man who has a very serious memory problem (this condition actually exists), he can only remember things for five minutes before he forgets them (this question was originally raised in an article I posted a little while ago about the existence of the soul). So he is basically living in the eternal present. In order for this man to have religion, he would have to be told the entire teachings of the religion in the space of five minutes, every five minutes, for the rest of his life. There is no way for this man to believe in God. Does God makes exceptions for this people?

Yes, I believe He does. Just as in the case of those that have down syndrome, or in the case of children who expire before the age of real understanding.

Just another way He shows His mercy, I guess.

This is scriptural, though I can't remember where right at the moment. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Oh, and what about this scenario.

Ok you got all these indians, south america for example. The first contact they have with christianity are missionaries. These Missionaries proceed to take their newborn babies, baptise them, then kill them to insure their salvation.

So basically, these peoples impression on christianity is obviously skewed, how can they be expected to accept christ?

You are complicating the original question, which was 'will some people not be given opportunity ?'.

The verse is very clear. God will not allow anyone to live their life without hearing about Him at least once, so that they will be held accountable for their decision to either believe or reject Him.

God is God...He can allow whom He wishes into heaven, and the criteria is simple. We all know what it is, so I won't be redundant.

So, I am sure there are many finite intricacies to salvation (clauses, if you will), but the Bible was written for those that can comprehend it. Which means that perhaps there ARE separate rules for those who cannot (i.e. those with down syndrome, or too young to decide for themselves).

I know there is scripture supporting the fact that not everyone is held to the same standard as those with full mental capacity, but I can't remember where it is for now. Sorry. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I believe I did answer the question presented.

How do you think I did not ? (explain it to me, and I will try to expound)

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Unless you belive the Mormons are right the peoples of the Americas had no opportunity to hear about your God until Columbus or Cabot showed up. How did God make himself know to them?



I am not much of a historian, nor have all things been revealed to me (in fact, not much has ! *lol*)...so, dolefully I must reply 'I don't know'.

What I do know is that God is faithful...to His people, to His promises, and to His prophecy.

God says that NO MAN WILL BE UNINFORMED. I do not know entirely how this is fulfilled, but I trust that what He says is true.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Same question for Austrailian Aboringinies, Asians and Indians who never met a missionary and all non Jews who lived before Jesus. Almost all of these people were not murderers, rapists or anything horible like that. So are any of their religions or beliefs right? Does your God make exceptions? Or does he damn his creations without ever giving them a chance?



The verse is clear.

ALL MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. That means that at some point in everyone's life, they will hear about God.

I don't know what else to tell you.

So you are not willing to say that people people of other religions could be doing what God told them to do.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

So you are not willing to say that people people of other religions could be doing what God told them to do.

No, because God is clear about what He wants us all to do. It's the same for indingenous peoples. It's the same for the Chinese... the Eskimo...the Aborigines.

Religion has nothing to do with God. Religion is man created. Salvation is God created.

God loves the cock.



Ok now that I have the anger out. I know you can't answer for God Digi, so i'll stop pounding at it, you stick to your scripture. I guess that is all you have to go on, thanks for the insight.

Now do you have a personal opinion? especially about my other question. When aboriginals of any lands first experiance of christianity comes through horrible violence, do you expect them to take kindly to that faith?

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Ok so this crazy idea popped in my head last night, really late, so I was super tired. But let me feel this out...

Ok, so when I ask most serious christians what happens to people who don't hear about God or have minor contact with christians, most say that "god gives exceptions for their lives" things such as that. Basically God understands when someone didn't have sufficient knowledge to accept jesus, then they will probably be saved.

Well, why don't christians just shut the fuck up, so none of us hear about it, live good lives and get saved? That way, if your a genuinley good person, but just cannot accept Jesus, then you will be saved. And all the genuinley bad people, wont be guilt tripped into believing something, and will be damned as they should. Not damned just because they don't adhere to someones beliefes, but damned because they are seriously bad people. Seems alot more fair to me, if anyone actually should go to hell.

Well, what i'm basically trying to say is... If god understands if people dont hear about jesus, then why don't we all just not hear about jesus, (i.e. christians just shutting the hell up), and then the truly good people wont be having any problems.



This idea just came to me last night, so I haven't really been able to sort it out into more of an intelligent, less angry sounding, theory. But discuss it please, and I will probably form it better.



well i've heard many fundamentalist christians say that those kind of people are going to hell (regardless the fact that they've no opportunity to be "saved")