Can you not have faith and believe in God without having a defined religion?

I have had this discussion with my friends who are religious and they argue that you cannot have faith without a defined religion.

I believe in God, but I'm not about to dedicate my life (or any part of it) to some doctrine written to control my life. I believe that god would want us to live our lives as we see fit. We do have free will do we not?

Aside: I know the free will thing has been discussed in another thread and the whole ‘god knowing all' and 'god having set our paths in life' arguments, but as one person stated we have many choices in life god knows the outcome either way, no matter what choices we make, he simply knows all the outcomes. And that is how I see it, no matter what we choose he knows the outcome

Anyways I kind of got off topic there, but what do you guys think? Can you really have faith without following some kind of religion?

I'm not sure it's really "faith" if you just believe a god exists.

Faith sort of implies a level of trust. Trust that God has a plan for you, trust that god sees will reward people who deserve it. Stuff like that.

Just believing that a god exists on a hunch doesn't really extend you to any trust level.

As a Christian, i often have to answer for my faith to people who think i'm foolish for believing in something i can't see. That's sort of what makes it faith.

I'm not sure i've answered your question well enough. I'm sorry for that.

theBishop

The two words are interchangable. While I don't belive in any religon I know that base for any is a faith in something. Basicly its a faith in god,or gods, or something(i.e. maybe you worship a lightbulb). If you belive in god you belive in religon. Which one? I haven't clue, there are so many forms. If you don't think you belong to a religon, yet you belive in god that wouldn't make much sense would it?

Just forget about god knowing your outcome, cause you don't so why does it matter?

Hey bishop, He has FAITH that god exists.

That's probably the biggest step.

And yeah poster, you can have faith without defined religion.

I suppose Digital Savior will be posting soon enough, she'll explain it. She's a christian, but has no denomination.

You can most definitely have God without religion. If you can't think I don't exist or something :P I beleive in God but I'm not religious. Spiritual, but not religious.

You can only have "faith in god" and not have a religion if you somehow found out all about this god and this faith by your lonesome (not happening), and then never associated with others of the same belief in any sort of spiritual or intellectual gathering.

However, saying "I believe in god, but Im not about to make that change my life one bit- if theres a god, of course he would want us to live exactly the same as the desecrated mindless slobs who dont even acknowledge his existence," is not a religious, or even spiritual standpoint, it is called a copout.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

saying "I believe in god, but Im not about to make that change my life one bit- if theres a god, of course he would want us to live exactly the same as the desecrated mindless slobs who dont even acknowledge his existence," is not a religious, or even spiritual standpoint, it is called a copout.

I don't think its a copout at all my friend, I know the difference between right and wrong and I do believe mostly the teachings in the bible, but no way in hell am I giving some church committee 10% of everything I earn (god doesn’t need my money wtf kinda rule is that??), and I’m not going to spend my Sundays (or in some religions Saturdays) listening about how I’m going to hell if I don't do this or if I don’t do that. I know if I were god and had created a race of people I would not want those people to live their lives for my sake, I would have created them to do what they want, what I believe is that he wouldn't want us to dedicate our lives to him but instead to be happy knowing the gift of life he gave us. Plain and simple.

I live life for me, to the best of my abilities, I aknowlege god, and I'm thankful for whatever help he may have given me. don't think that i'm not greatful.

[This message has been edited by Pissed_Citizen (edited 08-27-2004).]

We sort of need to define "Faith" here. Dictionary.com has 6:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.

6. A set of principles or beliefs.

I think a case can be made that definition 2 is possible without any set doctrine or religion, but in my opinion, none of the others.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

Can you not have faith and believe in God without having a defined religion?

Yes it is possible... coincider the pre-Moses patriarchs and their families. Although, I would presume it difficult, now days. They were taught about God by their fore-fathers.

{QUOTE]I believe in God, but I'm not about to dedicate my life (or any part of it) to some doctrine written to control my life. I believe that god would want us to live our lives as we see fit. We do have free will do we not?[/QUOTE]

I think free will is more about choosing between God and ourselves, than to equate it with freedom to do what we want.

Back to the topic at hand.

I think faith in God (in a nutshell) is not only belief that He exists and is Soveriegn, but that He told us alittle about Himself (meaning that the Bible is His Word).

For the sake of arguement, religion should be more about teaching you about God and His Will, than about telling you to do things because the church leaders want to control your life. Unforunately, religion was invented by man, and much more unfortunely, abused by (sone)men for various reasons.

If you do have faith, like you say, then reading and studying the Bible and comparing it to what religion teaches should reveal if the religion of your choice is the correct one.

There is more to faith than this, but its a start.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

If you do have faith, like you say, then reading and studying the Bible and comparing it to what religion teaches should reveal if the religion of your choice is the correct one.

Unfourtunatly by reading the bible, you plainly see its flaws. It was written by man, that's why its known as the story of god. I beleve the teachings to be good, but parts of it are written to control people. I cannot take it seriously as the true word of god.

Also I have noticed by reading the bible, there doesn't seem to be a 'correct' religion. (although it does state the accepted religions, the 7 of them http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) ) again, flaws that I cannot ignore.

[This message has been edited by Pissed_Citizen (edited 08-27-2004).]

Yeah, people years and years after Jesus' life really misinterpreted him. Jesus delegated the creation of a Christian hierarchy before his death, but all of his values weren't meant to be put into a bureaucratic system. Priests weren't supposed to own tons of land and serfs, lead private armies, and have huge bank accounts. For Christ's sake(pun intended), he lost his life beating out temple priests who made his people's faith into a temple of money and greed. Putting all of the Jews and unbelievers to fire and sword doesn't really connect with the loving your neighbor....And did I mention that any Christian who considers themself a Good Samaritan is an ignorant piece of shit? The whole point of the parable of the Good Samaritan told by Jesus was to show that a pagan who lived more by good values than a Christian was more fit to inherit the kingdom of heaven. If Jesus came back and if he had mad holy magic skillz, he'd so own those money laundering bishops.

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

Unfourtunatly by reading the bible, you plainly see its flaws.

Please show me these flaws.

take your time with this, cuz im going to bed. I'll try to check your post as soon as i can, but my family and i have a busy weekend planned.

The more i study God's Word (not story), the less flaws i see.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Please show me these flaws.

I shall take you up on that good sir.

(I was expecting you to ask me to show you)

But it'll have to wait till next week. I'm going away for the weekend. Hopefully this thread won't get lost in the pages of this forum.

EDIT: Kudos, AngrySquirrel

[This message has been edited by Pissed_Citizen (edited 08-27-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I'm not sure it's really "faith" if you just believe a god exists.

Faith sort of implies a level of trust. Trust that God has a plan for you, trust that god sees will reward people who deserve it. Stuff like that.

Just believing that a god exists on a hunch doesn't really extend you to any trust level.

As a Christian, i often have to answer for my faith to people who think i'm foolish for believing in something i can't see. That's sort of what makes it faith.

I'm not sure i've answered your question well enough. I'm sorry for that.

theBishop

But believing in something that you cannot tangibly identify constitutes an act of faith.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Hey bishop, He has FAITH that god exists.

That's probably the biggest step.

And yeah poster, you can have faith without defined religion.

I suppose Digital Savior will be posting soon enough, she'll explain it. She's a christian, but has no denomination.

Thanks for the segue, Tribe. *lol*

So, yes...I agree that you can have faith that there is a god, without participating in any organized religion.

But "which" god ? The God of the Christian Bible ? The god of the nation of Islam ? the gods of the totems ?

These are the questions that really matter. Wouldn't want to be wrong in the end. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

You can only have "faith in god" and not have a religion if you somehow found out all about this god and this faith by your lonesome (not happening), and then never associated with others of the same belief in any sort of spiritual or intellectual gathering.

However, saying "I believe in god, but Im not about to make that change my life one bit- if theres a god, of course he would want us to live exactly the same as the desecrated mindless slobs who dont even acknowledge his existence," is not a religious, or even spiritual standpoint, it is called a copout.

*applauds*

That was incredibly well put. Bravo. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

I don't think its a copout at all my friend, I know the difference between right and wrong and I do believe mostly the teachings in the bible, but no way in hell am I giving some church committee 10% of everything I earn (god doesn’t need my money wtf kinda rule is that??), and I’m not going to spend my Sundays (or in some religions Saturdays) listening about how I’m going to hell if I don't do this or if I don’t do that. I know if I were god and had created a race of people I would not want those people to live their lives for my sake, I would have created them to do what they want, what I believe is that he wouldn't want us to dedicate our lives to him but instead to be happy knowing the gift of life he gave us. Plain and simple.

I live life for me, to the best of my abilities, I aknowlege god, and I'm thankful for whatever help he may have given me. don't think that i'm not greatful.

[This message has been edited by Pissed_Citizen (edited 08-27-2004).]

The BIBLE tells you to tithe 10% of all your earnings, for very chritable reasons. The church is a symbol of hope, and they offer assistance to MANY in need. Whether it be spiritually, physically, or mentally. And treatment/aid of any of these three costs money.

It is not to make the church richer, it is to enable them to continue to do God's work. How could we send missionaries to provide food, clean water, and the gospel to third world countries without money ?

However, you must be careful who you give that money to. The TBN crazies obviously use the money they receive for their own personal gain, preying on innocent sympathetic viewers.

I don't know what church you have been in, but my church (non-denominational) doesn't teach that you are going to hell for any other reason than the rejection of Christ as your savior. Any other teaching is fallacy.

The law that was given to the people of Moses was given in order to maintain order...something we all need in our lives. They were not meant to harm us, nor prevent us from enjoying our lives. They were intended to keep us out of undue trouble. This is an illustration of how God does not want His people to suffer (by making mistakes that will dramatically affect their lives in a negative way).

The way you visualize YOUR version of creation is from a human standpoint. Not exactly parallel to the thought process of an omnipotent, omniscient being. You cannot possibly fathom what God had in mind. This is why you cannot understand the purpose of His law in your life. But, this is exactly why the Bible was given to us...to explain SIMPLY what we would otherwise completely misunderstand.

The happiness you speak of comes only from Him. Being close to Him spiritually are the happiest moments of a human being's life. Living for ourselves is exactly what brings us pain and sorrow...because we're fickle little things, and don't know what's good for us !

I don't think God would "give" you anything, if all you do is live for yourself. The Bible specifically teaches against selfishness, and living in the flesh.

If you are not for Him, then you are against Him. The scriptures are clear on this point.

I hope you find the path to righteousness soon...you sound like you have a good heart. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

And once again, XTREEM hits the nail on the head. You touched upon the aspects that I didn't. God bless !

Alright... just to comment on Digital_Savior's post..

quote:

The happiness you speak of comes only from Him. Being close to Him spiritually are the happiest moments of a human being's life. Living for ourselves is exactly what brings us pain and sorrow...because we're fickle little things, and don't know what's good for us !

I don't think God would "give" you anything, if all you do is live for yourself. The Bible specifically teaches against selfishness, and living in the flesh.



But you see, I believe that I am the one that makes me happy, the happiness I experience is because of the life I live, it is true I live for myself. That I don't believe is selfish in the least. And I am for god.. kinda.. Its how people get really crazy over religion that bothers me. That’s why I have faith in god.. But the religions behind most of the beliefs are trouble, don't even get me started on how many wars were fought in the name of god and how many lives were lost because one religion didn't like another.

sorry, but i have to....

quote:

The way you visualize YOUR version of creation is from a human standpoint. Not exactly parallel to the thought process of an omnipotent, omniscient being. You cannot possibly fathom what God had in mind. This is why you cannot understand the purpose of His law in your life. But, this is exactly why the Bible was given to us...to explain SIMPLY what we would otherwise completely misunderstand.



Show me, prove to me god is an omnipotent, omniscient being. It says not to question god. I question him all the time; do I have a shiity life? No. Am I being hit by lightning all the time? No. Give me one solid shred of evidence to support that our god can do whatever he wants. This is way off topic but I just have to state this, I have faith in god, maybe not the same as you, but I still have faith, just god is watching and laughing as this world tears itself apart. And this thought aggravates me and if god knows my thoughts, and I’m sure others think the same too, why does he refuse to help the hungry? Refuse to do something to help the poor and homeless?

No he leaves that for the 10% of my earnings that I give to the church to go and clean up. This is his plan? Some plan.

1. Create heaven and earth

2. Make Adam

3. Adam is bored... make eve

4. OMFG eve corrupted Adam FUCK THEM!!!

5. Kick their Asses outta paradise

6. Make a whole bunch of humans

7. They are acting like animals. Make book to control them

8. Laugh as they fuck up and screw with my book

9. LOL they are killing each other in my name

10. Make popcorn and watch the world fall apart.

11. Invite Satan to watch. He’ll like this.

Sorry about the rant, but you can’t ignore this stuff. And I don’t want no “blind faith” answer saying I shouldn’t be questioning god. Because I think its good practice to question god. That’s the only way I have ever gotten an answer.

EDIT: Also don't answer that the strongest evidence that we have is the fact that he does nothing... I have heard that argument. It doesn't convince me.

[This message has been edited by Pissed_Citizen (edited 08-27-2004).]

I'll definitely get back to you...in-laws have been in town, and this sort of convo takes time.

I will answer you as honestly as I can, with what limited knowledge I have.

Patience, please...

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

Also I have noticed by reading the bible, there doesn't seem to be a 'correct' religion. (although it does state the accepted religions, the 7 of them) again, flaws that I cannot ignore.

Are you are referring to the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation? If that is the case, then the mistake is equating the word "church" to mean "religion". In other words, the 7 churches are all the same religion (following the Christ's teaching). They were basically the first Christian churches that were established by the Apostles. But there is a second meaning. The first meaning is meant as more literal history, but the second meaning is prophecy, to illustrate the different "styles" of Christian churches from that time up to now and in the future, and what God has to say to those churches reguarding what they are doing right and wrong.

This is theology. Basically, the interpretaton of what is presented in the Bible.

I'm not trying to be rude, but i hope that the flaws that are a stumbling block to you are not theological in origin, but (what you and others percieve as) actual contridictions and flaws.

Like i said, i'm not trying to be rude, but you said that you question God all the time. So I think that for now, we can set aside the doctrine aspects, and consentrate on the apparent flaws.

Btw, this post was mainly a thread bump.

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

It says not to question god. I question him all the time; do I have a shiity life? No. Am I being hit by lightning all the time? No.

Sorry about the rant, but you can’t ignore this stuff. And I don’t want no “blind faith” answer saying I shouldn’t be questioning god. Because I think its good practice to question god. That’s the only way I have ever gotten an answer.

Actually, it doesnt quite say that we can not question God. Plenty of people in the Bible have questioned God directly.. Jacob and Job come to mind right off the bat.

I think the first thing about questioning God (especially when we want answers) is to understand OUR motives. The second thing is we have to be aware of the answer, and this comes more prevelent as our relationship with Him grows.

As to our motives for questioning God, maybe we might want to concider reasons that God would or wouldnt answer, or if He has already answered (in His Word- the Bible).

Some reasons that He would not answer:

1. Do we have preconcieved ideas or answers?---like when they asked Jesus to let himself off the cross (i know this is a poor example, but this is the 1st thing that comes to mind).

2. Is the question accusatory? "Lord, why have you let this happen to me? What did i do to deserve this?"... This is a situation where God may have already answered.

3. Is the question designed for entrapment?

4. Is the question inherently illogical?

Making a rock so big that he can't move it. Although, being all powerful and all knowing, I'm sure this is possible for God, but it would be beyond our logic.

5. Is the question's only motive for the purpose of proof of God?

Some types of questions that God may be more inclined to answer:

1. Honest info.

2. Sincerity

3. Clearity

*******************************************

i as an athiest do not belive/worship in god but still take into account that he might be real

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

sorry, but i have to....

This is his plan? Some plan.

1. Create heaven and earth

2. Make Adam

3. Adam is bored... make eve

4. OMFG eve corrupted Adam FUCK THEM!!!

5. Kick their Asses outta paradise

6. Make a whole bunch of humans

7. They are acting like animals. Make book to control them

8. Laugh as they fuck up and screw with my book

9. LOL they are killing each other in my name

10. Make popcorn and watch the world fall apart.

11. Invite Satan to watch. He’ll like this.

Sorry about the rant, but you can’t ignore this stuff.

Ummmm.... we cant ignore what stuff??

I dont recall the Bible mentioning a popcorn party with God and Satan.

We were going to discuss "flaws" in the Bible, right?

I'm not being impatient, this is just another bump, so that it doesnt fade to the bottom of the pile... but if i am misunderstanding, and you really want answers to this post, just let me know.

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

I shall take you up on that good sir.

(I was expecting you to ask me to show you)

But it'll have to wait till next week. I'm going away for the weekend. Hopefully this thread won't get lost in the pages of this forum.

EDIT: Kudos, AngrySquirrel

[This message has been edited by Pissed_Citizen (edited 08-27-2004).]

just another bump

sorry xtreem... i got bogged down with school work (damn computer network engineering course) unfortunatly i havn't been able to get back to the people who have replied to what i said. about the comment on my rant about satan and a popcorn party.. that part of of my post wasn't refering to parts from the bible, i was referring to the fact god doesn't seem to do anything to stop what is happening in the world today. (you know what i'm talking about-- famine, war, etc.) i do admit i got a little carried away. anyways, i got more school work to do, but i will try my very best to reply to the arguments put before me.

quote:Originally posted by kongaman:

i as an athiest do not belive/worship in god but still take into account that he might be real

Then you are agnostic, not athiest. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

Can you not have faith and believe in God without having a defined religion?



That's how I do it. I'm interested in religeons. I even lived with Harry Krishnas for 3 months, loving it, but I can't see myself ever having a religeon.

Erich Fromm has a pretty good definition of faith in one of his writings, "The revolution of hope towards a humanized technology." (Title may be flawed)

This is good too.

"To have faith means to dare, to think the unthinkable, yet to act within the limits of the realistically possible; it is the paradoxical hope to expect the Messiah every day, yet not to lose heart when he has not come at the appointed hour. This hope is not passive and it is not patient; on the contrary, it is impatient an active, looking for every possibility of action within the realm of real possibilities. Least of all it is passive as far as the growth and liberation of one's own person are concerned....

The situation of mankind is too serious to permit us to listen to the demagogues - least of all demagogues who are attracted to destruction - or even to the leaders who use only their brains and whose hearts have hardened. Critical and radical thought will only bear fruit when it is blended with the most precious quality man is endowed with - the love of life."

Erich Fromm (1973) The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness, page 438

quote:Originally posted by Pissed_Citizen:

sorry xtreem... i got bogged down with school work (damn computer network engineering course) unfortunatly i havn't been able to get back to the people who have replied to what i said. about the comment on my rant about satan and a popcorn party.. that part of of my post wasn't refering to parts from the bible, i was referring to the fact god doesn't seem to do anything to stop what is happening in the world today. (you know what i'm talking about-- famine, war, etc.) i do admit i got a little carried away. anyways, i got more school work to do, but i will try my very best to reply to the arguments put before me.



not a problem at all. for the most part, i was just trying to keep the topic near the top, so it didnt get buried.

for right now, im just going to point out:



Ge 3:17 To Adam he said, "Because you have listened to your wife`s voice, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, `You shall not eat of it,` cursed is the ground for your sake. In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

Ge 3:18 Thorns also and thistles will it bring forth to you; and you will eat the herb of the field.

Ge 3:19 By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

also concider

Ge 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel."

these would be general curses for their punishment, but with verse 15, these curses get passed on to the serpent's offspring and Eve's offspring.

Now also take into account:

2ch 7:12 Yahweh appeared to Solomon by night, and said to him, I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for a house of sacrifice.

2ch 7:13 If I shut up the sky so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;

2ch 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

2ch 7:15 Now my eyes shall be open, and my ears attentive, to the prayer that is made in this place.

These are alittle more specific, although they seem to have some general significance to your question.

Even in the New Testament, Jesus says to repent.

I have to admit, when our "little challenge" was first made, i was somewhat afraid. i have seen "contridictions" before and they usually fall into the category of misuderstanding of translation. The night after my fear, i was listening to a commentary on the radio, and the subject was "Fear". During the show, he said several times, "Fear not, Trust in the Lord" (nice reminder and a great time). This morning i noticed your post, but i had to go help my dad tear off the old roof of his house. On the way there i was listening to another show, and II Chronicles was being discussed, along with the verse that says, "The Lord Will Provide". So to be fair, if this answers your question(s), i get none of the credit (Credit should always go to God anyway).

If this does not answer your questions, please continue.

There's a difference between acting consciously out of good will and acting out of base self-interest, greed, and immorality(by the concepts of Christianity, no less) but using Jesus and redemption as happy pills and excuses.

If God could set a bottom line for man's sins and drown all of the sinners, and if Jesus put a cap to that, then it would be considered that God's intention was not to repeat that. Jesus is considered part of God's consciousness, but with God able to put his foot down it would be considered that Christians could go to hell by their actions, and by Jesus' words pagans could go to heaven.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Unforunately, religion was invented by man, and much more unfortunely, abused by (sone)men for various reasons.



Ah, so you admit it. Why not go the next step, and admit God was created by man, as well?

Religion is a soothing lullaby sung by the human race to itself, as it floats off to a dreamless sleep.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Ah, so you admit it. Why not go the next step, and admit God was created by man, as well?

LMAO...sorry, all i could picture was Darth Vader saying, "come over to the Dark Side". http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

i have faith that my asshole exists even though ive never seen it, its nothing to base a religion on. maybe i should try a mirror...

ok. religion is an organization of people of like mind having faith in the same thing. faith is the beleif in something unseen. just because you don't have an organized religion, or don't attend church doesn't mean you have less faith, or that having faith is imposible.

for example. someone has faith that a sick familly member will get better. the doctors say its highly unlikely, but they will not let go of the possibility. thats faith. doesn't mean they need to organize a religion and hold meetings to make it faith.

religion itself is a horrible word. in the name of religion or God (by various names) more evils and horrors have been commited on the face of this planet. the Catholic church has commited more acts against the progression of the human intilect than any other organization, all in the name of fear. and they have made religion become something that is anthima or the opposite of intillect or scientific exploration.

religion isn't always good. even cults share the same properties of religions. faith in something moral, something higher, something that pushes you to be a better person on the inside and out is more respectable and more honest than something that hides behind the name of religion and screws the world over.

don't get my wrong. some religions are good. and fellowship of brethren that beleive the same thing, and encourage each others beleifs is great and should be sought after, but in no means does it define your faith.