Hi,

I guess i would describe myself as a liberal christian, although i think i am conservative in certain areas. I think "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless, circular words.

So, most conservative christians are staunchly against abortion. They think abortion is murder. However, they are usually for Capital Punishment.

This seems pretty insane to me. Why is killing a fetus murder, but killing an adult not murder?

I dare you to try and say "oh well, a fetus is innocent, but someone convicted of a capital crime is horrible". Bullshit. First of all, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all have sinned before god, no matter how holy you think you are. A murderer would be forgiven just as easily as a shoplifter if he truely accepts Christ.

And that's not counting the fact that innocent people have been killed. There's no getting around it. That is an absolute tragedy in my opinion. Hundreds of people have been convicted of capital crimes who were just as innocent as our beloved fetus'.

So why are conservative Christians generally for the death penalty?

In case anyone is wondering, i'm against capital punishment, and i am also against Abortion. However, i think abortion should be legal, but extremely rare and not a form of birth control.

theBishop

CAUSE DUBYA IS FOR IT!!!

no but seriously, I have no scriptural basis for this, as in I can't qoute direct scripture, but............

I think Jesus would be against it. He was the victim of it after all.

The usual justification for it usually comes back to the duty to the state, the need for retributive justice etc, etc. I think it mostly evolves from what Paul had to say in Romans 14(?).

I was looking at this stuff recently, as I was intending to do a lot of reading on the role of christians and the state, or more accurately, on christians and war... never really got round to doing the reading though.

In the end though I think alot of it comes back to the aligning of their "conservative religious" views with conservative politics. Also the whole "God bless Amerika" thing would probably play a big part of their national identity being tied up with their religious indentity.

</poorly written and ill-articulated post>

Because they're hypocrites.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Because they're hypocrites.

Who cares Jesus was a Mamza (born out of infedelity or something similar) If you asked what God thought of it I think He would be against it. Just as he would be against Robin Hood stealing. It may be considered morally right but I dont think it is.

Ryan

I don't agree with capitol punishment.

"Judgement is mine" sayeth the Lord.

Not that I wouldn't want the head of anyone who would harm my children, but that's my human side.

As a Christian, and a morally objective person, I feel abortion is horrible, and so is the death penalty.

I also think it is a far worse punishment to be imprisoned for the rest of one's life.

Now THAT'S torture.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:



This seems pretty insane to me. Why is killing a fetus murder, but killing an adult not murder?



Becuase fetuses only kill pregnant women and adults can kill other adults and children. Under hillbilly law pregnant women are not full people.

I agree that life in prison is worse than being killed, at least i think it would be.

In my opinion, killing a full grown person is worse than aborting an undeveloped fetus. That being said i think both practices are terrible.

I don't know about the States but in Canada killing a newborn baby is not murder if the mother does it. The crime is called infanacide. It is basicly a form of the insanity defence.

Because one is a state doing its duty to protect its people from violators who would harm them, and the other is a convenient way for cowards to escape responsibility and hardship.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't agree with capitol punishment.

"Judgement is mine" sayeth the Lord.

Not that I wouldn't want the head of anyone who would harm my children, but that's my human side.

As a Christian, and a morally objective person, I feel abortion is horrible, and so is the death penalty.



Wow... yay... consistency!

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Just out of interest, whats your stance on doctor assisted suicide in the case of the terminally ill?

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

Because one is a state doing its duty to protect its people from violators who would harm them,

If that where the only recurse, you would have a valid point. The proble is, it isn't the only recurse.

Ok, the only viable and merciful and just course of action.

Besides Exile, which I wholeheartedly endorse for lesser crimes.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:



Besides Exile, which I wholeheartedly endorse for lesser crimes.

where would you send these people? I like the idea but unless you want to clear out the virgin islands or something where will you put them?

Who the hell decides which is more merciful? I'm willing to bet that if you ask any man or woman on death row, the majority will say differntly.

Exactly Rust, it seems like me and D_S are in agreement that life in prison is a bigger deterrant than the death penalty.

Regarding doctor assisted suicide, I think that's something that should be legal because it is the choice of the person, not the choice of the state, or parent-to-be.

From a christian standpoint, i don't think it's compatible for a christian to commit suicide in any form, in addition I think a doctor who is a christian should not perform euthanasia. Seperation of church and state kiddies.

theBishop,

where you justifying war in the other thread (about the Pastor), when you posted Thomas Aquinas' argument? I'm curious, because if you were, the same could be applied to capital punishment. Moreover, Saint Thomas Aquinas said that a baby was not alive in the first months of pregnancy, since he had not received a soul yet. Why would you be against abortion then?

That is of course, if you did agree with his argument(s)...

No way dude. I wasn't defending war. I just saying there's been some decent arguments justifying war into christian thought. I personally am not sold on it, but at least the thought process is there.

With the death penalty, i haven't really been swayed by the few lackluster arguments i've seen.

Actually with abortion i'm not sure the christian arguments i've heard are terribly compelling either, but i think the practice of abortion is a tradgedy, even though i don't think it would be banned.

EDIT: I think war is different from execution. A case could definitely be made that many conflicts are a case of self-defense. Preemption (in the case of iraq), i'm not sure i can stomach at all as a Christian. Jesus did say turn the other cheek, so perhaps even self defense action is unjustified. I don't know. I'm a bit torn on the issue.

[This message has been edited by theBishop (edited 08-28-2004).]

If Christianity is a religion of forgiveness how can capital punishment be ever justified? Point out to me at which point in killing the man do we forgive him?

Allowing the criminal into the equation is probably wrong in the first place; the place of a system of justice is not to help or hurt or do anything to the criminal, it is to protect the society. If that society is threatened or burdened by the survival, imprisonment, ore other punishment of a given offender, death is a viable option, because a state or people have a right to defend themselves.

I don't care about the morality of execution in general Spirit. I'm talking solely about execution as it relates to Christianity and why so many Christians seem to support it.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I don't care about the morality of execution in general Spirit. I'm talking solely about execution as it relates to Christianity and why so many Christians seem to support it.

I suspect because Judaism is a religion of law and Christianity is a religion of forgiveness, that because Christians read both Testaments they borrow from the Jewish Bible the concept of capital punishment whilst also preaching forgiveness the was Jesus taught.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Wow... yay... consistency!

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Just out of interest, whats your stance on doctor assisted suicide in the case of the terminally ill?

Consistancy ? Are you insinuating that I am NOT being consistent ?

I was giving the truth...that I could not say it wouldn't be my desire to see someone die for the suffering of my children, but that wouldn't make it any more right.

It's easy to say, "The death penalty isn't right, so long as the perp didn't do anything to me." It should apply in all cases.

I don't believe the death penalty is right, no matter what.

I feel I was consistent on that point.

I believe suicide is also a form of murder. You are snuffing out a life that God intended to live, so it is still murder.

And the doctor is assisting in that murder.

"Thou shalt not kill." means ANY sort of killing.

Even accidents.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

If that where the only recurse, you would have a valid point. The proble is, it isn't the only recurse.

I have seen you mispell that word one too many times...

It's RECOURSE.

And what other recourse ? Rehabilitation ?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Who the hell decides which is more merciful? I'm willing to bet that if you ask any man or woman on death row, the majority will say differntly.

But why should their opinions matter ? The crimes that they committed to find themselves on death row are enough testimony that they don't want to live by our society's rules, thus nullifying their right to be a part of our society.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Exactly Rust, it seems like me and D_S are in agreement that life in prison is a bigger deterrant than the death penalty.

Regarding doctor assisted suicide, I think that's something that should be legal because it is the choice of the person, not the choice of the state, or parent-to-be.

From a christian standpoint, i don't think it's compatible for a christian to commit suicide in any form, in addition I think a doctor who is a christian should not perform euthanasia. Seperation of church and state kiddies.



But if you are looking at it from a Christian perspective, your body is not truly YOURS.

It's God's. He gave it to you...it is on loan to you. It is your "temple" and you are to take care of it.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

theBishop,

where you justifying war in the other thread (about the Pastor), when you posted Thomas Aquinas' argument? I'm curious, because if you were, the same could be applied to capital punishment. Moreover, Saint Thomas Aquinas said that a baby was not alive in the first months of pregnancy, since he had not received a soul yet. Why would you be against abortion then?

That is of course, if you did agree with his argument(s)...

And how did Thomas Aquinas determine when exactly the soul enters the body ?

NO ONE knows that. Only God.

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

If Christianity is a religion of forgiveness how can capital punishment be ever justified? Point out to me at which point in killing the man do we forgive him?

I can forgive a person who has committed a heinous crime, but still believe that they ought to pay for it.

Sitting in jail for the rest of their lives seems like a good punishment to me.

Murdering them isn't a viable option, in my opinion.

God will deal with them in the end...unless they turn over a new leaf, and become saved. Then all their sins are forgiven, and as unfair as that may seem to us, it's God's prerogative.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I don't care about the morality of execution in general Spirit. I'm talking solely about execution as it relates to Christianity and why so many Christians seem to support it.

It has not been my experience that Christians support it, though I only hang out with non-denominational Christians, and the Bible is taken literally. Do not kill means do not kill, no matter what.

I'd shoot a guy in the kneecaps for hurting my kids, though ! (then I'd call 911 and have him taken care of, to make sure he didn't die. *LMAO* Just kiddin' guys...*winks*)

quote:But if you are looking at it from a Christian perspective, your body is not truly YOURS.

I agree completely, and i think it's against God's plan for anyone to commit suicide or god forbid aid a suicide.

But hopefully you can agree that this is an area where christians can do things their way and other people can have their way.

I can understand people's harsh stance on abortion because it's such a tradedy to lose one of God's children before it enters the world, even though my own stance is slightly less hard. But with suicide, I think that's an area where a person is making a choice. We should certainly do everything we can to prevent a suicide, but i don't know. I think seperation of church and state can be made cleanly here on both sides.

Of course...everything we do is a choice. The consequences are still the same for everyone, though...no matter the circumstances.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I have seen you mispell that word one too many times...

It's RECOURSE.

And what other recourse ? Rehabilitation ?

My bad. Thank you for correcting me.

May I do the same for you? It’s spelled “misspell” not “mispell”

As for you questions, life in prison, and rehabilitation.

quote:But why should their opinions matter ? The crimes that they committed to find themselves on death row are enough testimony that they don't want to live by our society's rules, thus nullifying their right to be a part of our society.

Their opinion matters because he was saying it was more merciful to kill them. The only people that should judge what is more merciful is those who are going to be killed.

Neither him, you or I have any say on what's more merciful, since it is ultimately an opinion of those being punished.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And how did Thomas Aquinas determine when exactly the soul enters the body ?

NO ONE knows that. Only God.

Who here said any differently? And then I'm accused of "arguing for arguing's sake"... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Like I said in my original post, I only mentioned that because he linked to one of Thomas Aquinas' arguments justifying war. I was wondering if he agreed with his arguments about a baby's soul as well.

That's an interesting question: is death more merciful than some other punishment. I'm going to say no because death would prevent an unsaved person from being redeemed. Still, it's a valid point definitely

quote:My bad. Thank you for correcting me.

May I do the same for you? It’s spelled “misspell” not “mispell”

As for you questions, life in prison, and rehabilitation.

Sure. I missed a key. You have repeatedly misspelled recourse.

That is the only reason why I brought it to your attention.

quote:Their opinion matters because he was saying it was more merciful to kill them. The only people that should judge what is more merciful is those who are going to be killed.

Neither him, you or I have any say on what's more merciful, since it is ultimately an opinion of those being punished.

Well, it was their opinion that murder, rape, or incest were elements of their lifestyles that were deemed 'ok'.

So, I am of the opinion that they don't have a say in what happens to them, under justice for all.

When you commit crimes like these, you lose your status as 'citizen'. You lose your civil rights...all of them.

You become a ward of that particular state.

I am not saying that these people can be abused, but I am saying that they lose the right to decide how they are to be treated at that point.

It is up to us to deal with them in moral, ethical ways, and always fairly.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Who here said any differently? And then I'm accused of "arguing for arguing's sake"... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Like I said in my original post, I only mentioned that because he linked to one of Thomas Aquinas' arguments justifying war. I was wondering if he agreed with his arguments about a baby's soul as well.



Yet again, it appears that you only seek to play devil's advocate. You make pointed remarks, and then claim they didn't have any personal opinions associated with them.

Your line of questioning would indicate otherwise.

If you raise the question, in an attempt to discredit the original poster, wouldn't that inevitably appear as though you support the answer that you are looking for, which is against the presupposition of said original poster ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sure. I missed a key. You have repeatedly misspelled recourse.

That is the only reason why I brought it to your attention.

This isn't a competetion. I was merely returning the favor. Apparently, I must take criticism, but you can't...

quote:

Well, it was their opinion that murder, rape, or incest were elements of their lifestyles that were deemed 'ok'.

So, I am of the opinion that they don't have a say in what happens to them, under justice for all.

When you commit crimes like these, you lose your status as 'citizen'. You lose your civil rights...all of them.

You become a ward of that particular state.

I am not saying that these people can be abused, but I am saying that they lose the right to decide how they are to be treated at that point.

It is up to us to deal with them in moral, ethical ways, and always fairly.

I'm not arguing that they should not loose rights, or that they should be able to choose punishment. I'm arguing that 'Spirit', or anyone else besided those being punished, cannot decide what is more "merciful" or not. That's an opinion, an opinion that only those being punished say with any certainty.

'Spirit 22' may have an opinion on what would be merciful for him, but he has no claim to say what's merciful to others.

quote:pointed remarks, and then claim they didn't have any personal opinions associated with them.

Your line of questioning would indicate otherwise.

If you raise the question, in an attempt to discredit the original poster, wouldn't that inevitably appear as though you support the answer that you are looking for, which is against the presupposition of said original poster



I was merely stating a question and theBishop understood that and he therefore answered accordingly, you're the only one here who doesn't understand it.

Moreover, I don't believe in god, spirits, the devil, or a soul, so why would I give any value to Thomas Aquinas argument?

I was merely asking a question. I was asking because he had posted Aquinas' argument justifying war, and I didn't know if he agreed with it, or was merely posting it.

What the hell is wrong with "agrguing for arguing's sake"? It's important in a discussion to make sure as many layers of argument are exposed as possible.

It's a friggin' message board, not senate floor. We don't have to be willing to die for every argument we make. It's the process, the discussion that makes the message board interesting.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



God will deal with them in the end...unless they turn over a new leaf, and become saved. Then all their sins are forgiven, and as unfair as that may seem to us, it's God's prerogative.

That's exactly my point.

Only Christianity believes that, Judaism still says they're f-to-the-ucked.

And God "blinded" the Jews a long time ago.

Or didn't you read that part ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

-----------------------------------------

Rust, I can take criticism just fine..though, I hardly EVER misspell a word, and when I do, it's by accident. You clearly were under the misconception that "recourse" was spelled "recurse".

So, I was honestly just trying to help out. It won't happen again...I'll let you make yourself look like an idiot. *shrugs*

If Bishop got the point, then fine. I guess he is the only one important enough on this forum to be allowed the sanctity of "getting" your posts.

No one else seems to.

quote:Rust, I can take criticism just fine..though, I hardly EVER misspell a word, and when I do, it's by accident. You clearly were under the misconception that "recourse" was spelled "recurse".

Nope, you're not pretentious. Why the fuck would anyone here think that! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



quote:If Bishop got the point, then fine. I guess he is the only one important enough on this forum to be allowed the sanctity of "getting" your posts.

No one else seems to.



He "got it" because it was a simple question, and he possesses the adequate reading comprehension to understand it. You on the other hand, have proved otherwise.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

That's an interesting question: is death more merciful than some other punishment. I'm going to say no because death would prevent an unsaved person from being redeemed. Still, it's a valid point definitely

I think "death" is more merciful than a lifetime of incarceration, yes.

Where the morality of that death comes in to play is when considering "how" and whether or not the justice system supporting such deaths is fair and valid.

Is stoning someone to death merciful ? That's doubtful...but putting them to sleep in a padded room could be construed as such.

What do you think ?

As for preventing someone that is unsaved from having the opportunity to become saved, each person has the opportunity before they die. God has promised that. If that is true, God knows the date and the hour that this person would die, and therefor would ensure that the opportunity was given BEFORE their death.