I've heard a few reasons explaining how some hippy dieng on a cross saved us all, so is it that you had to sacrifice an animal before when you commited a sin, and because jesus was perfect and followed the laws of Judiasm perfectly, when he died it made up for everything. Or was it just because he was half God. BTW, if all sins are forgiven, why does original sin still exist? How come child birth still hurts like fuck and everything, if that was forgiven as well?

pain at giving birth, shorter lifespan, etc. are all effects of original sin. Jesus forgives all sin (if u ask) and allows u into heaven when you die. this doesnt mean that your physical body is made perfect while you are still on earth.

quote:Originally posted by mixedbloods:

I've heard a few reasons explaining how some hippy dieng on a cross saved us all, so is it that you had to sacrifice an animal before when you commited a sin, and because jesus was perfect and followed the laws of Judiasm perfectly, when he died it made up for everything. Or was it just because he was half God. BTW, if all sins are forgiven, why does original sin still exist? How come child birth still hurts like fuck and everything, if that was forgiven as well?

Jesus didn't have to die for us, he lived for us.

Here is my question:

Why is the life/existence of Jesus such an important factor to many peoples' beliefs? Why is Jesus necessary to the belief in God? I just do not see why the human race would need a 'saviour'......what do we need a saviour for?

Jesus saved us

<A HREF="http://img2.exs.cx/img2/199/redeemer.gif">http://img2.exs.cx/img2/199/redeemer.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://img2.exs.cx/img2/199/redeemer.gif" width="90" height="90)</A>



<A HREF="http://img46.exs.cx/img46/9372/jesussaves.jpg">http://img46.exs.cx/img46/9372/jesussaves.jpg" width="90" height="90 (http://img46.exs.cx/img46/9372/jesussaves.jpg" width="90" height="90)</A>



[This message has been edited by Gaspode (edited 09-01-2004).]

my dick itches

quote:Originally posted by Gaspode:

Jesus saved us

&lt;A HREF="http://img2.exs.cx/img2/199/redeemer.gif"&gt; <A HREF="http://img2.exs.cx/img2/199/redeemer.gif">http://img2.exs.cx/img2/199/redeemer.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://img2.exs.cx/img2/199/redeemer.gif" width="90" height="90)</A> &lt;/a&gt;



As hilarious as this is, it actually does make a point. Souls have to have some value to God and Satan if they're so pressed for their possession.

my understanding has always been that the subtext of the christian tradition is that jesus saved the lot of humanity simply by experiencing and trying to share the divine splendor of life up until his last breath; even despite our apparent inability to grasp how a man that was crucified because of our own selfish fears and unjust suspicions could feel anything but vengeful anger and hatred. he was debased by the culture of the time, but in not harboring ill will, he proved his world vision the greater entity.

all of this pretty fantastical sort of tug-at-your-spiritual-heart-strings type of stuff.

Maybe what we call "being born into "sin" is negative karma brought from a previous life. "Karma" being the negative energy that manifests from negative thoughts and actions.

and grace is the end of karma

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

Why is the life/existence of Jesus such an important factor to many peoples' beliefs? Why is Jesus necessary to the belief in God? I just do not see why the human race would need a 'saviour'......what do we need a saviour for?Good questions. I'll try to answer in reverse order...

- We need a Savior to be saved from the wrath of God (fair and just punishment for crimes committed).

- Jesus is the "way" to God, afterall Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". Mere belief in God isn't at issue, but right belief in God is.

- Jesus is important because He provides the way to right relationship with God.

But the topic of the thread is "How Jesus saved us", and that is a really simple issue: Jesus died as our substitute, dying in our place. By placing our faith and trust in Jesus, we receive the full benefits of right relationship with God because of Jesus' perfect obedience. In our place, Jesus received the full measure of our punishment.

Hit the nail on the head, Logical. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Wait, none of you seriously believe that the pain of childbirth has anything to do with original sin, do you? If so, you might wan't to use you're brain power and come up with a better explanation.

Edit: I don't like the idea that I have to believe in some guy that was a sacrificial lamb a thousand years ago, so god won't smite me down. Also it's rediculous that apperently I'm going to hell because I never got dipped in a bowl of water. I'd go so far to say that if the christian god was real, he would be an irrational despot, and an enemy of mine. That's why I'm glad no religion has pinpointed the true nature of god, whatever god is.

[This message has been edited by great_sage=heaven (edited 08-31-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by great_sage=heaven:

Wait, none of you seriously believe that the pain of childbirth has anything to do with original sin, do you? If so, you might wan't to use you're brain power and come up with a better explanation.

Edit: I don't like the idea that I have to believe in some guy that was a sacrificial lamb a thousand years ago, so god won't smite me down. Also it's rediculous that apperently I'm going to hell because I never got dipped in a bowl of water. I'd go so far to say that if the christian god was real, he would be an irrational despot, and an enemy of mine. That's why I'm glad no religion has pinpointed the true nature of god, whatever god is.

[This message has been edited by great_sage=heaven (edited 08-31-2004).]

Genesis 3:1 - 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Genesis 3:14-16 - 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all the livestock

and all the wild animals!

You will crawl on your belly

and you will eat dust

all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring [1] and hers;

he will crush [2] your head,

and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."



I think that was PRETTY OBVIOUS.

Why don't you read it before you pretend to know what it says ?

The rest of what you said sounds like an opinion based on a conglomeration of religions, not just Christianity, and the mixing of them is what appears to be causing your confusion.

^haha. first of all, he never said that the bible does not propose the notion that original sin is the cause of child birth pains... he was saying that you're simple if you believe that (paraphrased).

secondly, how do your quotes prove anything except that he was right about the christian god being petty?

after all, god lied to eve, and then cruelly punished her anyways when she called his bluff.

Am I the only one who had the understanding that the entire Old Testament was a collection of parables and not the literal truth? Did SOMEONE else ever think this?

Even with my not being a Christian for about 3 years now, I still look on the Old Testament and what Jesus said as good things, because they show examples of where devious acts against your fellow man (called "sin" by Christianity, "bad karma" in eastern religions, yada yada) can work against you (Old Testament) and how general not being a dick can be pretty cool (New Testament). I still think Jesus would be a lot more appealing if he had two shotguns, a badass attitude, a leather jacket and a motorcycle.

quote:Originally posted by Duo:

Am I the only one who had the understanding that the entire Old Testament was a collection of parables and not the literal truth? Did SOMEONE else ever think this?



Sure, but xians will deny it up and down.

Some people say the bible is useless, but there is a lot to be learned from the story's. There's a lot to be learned from many religeous storys. For some people they are just stories, for others they are lessons.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

^haha. first of all, he never said that the bible does not propose the notion that original sin is the cause of child birth pains... he was saying that you're simple if you believe that (paraphrased).

secondly, how do your quotes prove anything except that he was right about the christian god being petty?

after all, god lied to eve, and then cruelly punished her anyways when she called his bluff.

How did he lie to her ?

I was laying the groundwork for "why we actually believe" that pain during childbirth was a consequence of original sin.

I don't see anythign petty about punishing your "children" for disobeying.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Sure, but xians will deny it up and down.

Some people say the bible is useless, but there is a lot to be learned from the story's. There's a lot to be learned from many religeous storys. For some people they are just stories, for others they are lessons.

The events of the Old Testament actually happened. However, we are not subjugated under the Law anymore, since Jesus died in atonement for our sins.

But you are still right...the history described in the Old Testament is intended to be learned from.

If you claim that the entire Old Testament is just a compilation of stories, then what is the purpose of the genealogies in 1 and 2 Kings ?

Those people really existed, and can be referenced in other historical documents, not relating to the Bible.

Are we picking and choosing which portions of the Old Testament are real, and which are fabricated ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If you claim that the entire Old Testament is just a compilation of stories, then what is the purpose of the genealogies in 1 and 2 Kings ?



Boring stories.

They ARE boring, but they aren't "stories". As I said, they are very important, ACCURATE genealogies.

I think the stories were factual, to a point. I think that most of it is highly embelished. Like the story of Noah may have happened. But not the entire world got flooded.

There is great evidence of a large flood in that region, and to those people, that was the whole world. Thusly the entire world was flooded.

Geneologies would have been included because the Jews at that time had this infatuation with birth lines, they were highly important to them.

^the closest I have actually hearxd anyone come up with an idea that might actually explain the flood is this:

Basically, when the atmosphere was forming, a great ring of water was around the earth to protect it's evolving creatures from the harmful rays of the sun and such. When the atmosphere was fully formed, the water 'fell' to earth, thus producing the great flood.

hrm. might be true, might not, I don't personally care. Even if PARTS of the bible are true, here's one thing most xtians seem to forget too easily - GOD may have inspired the bible... he may have guided the hands of the writers.. But those writers and translators were STILL JUST HUMAN. Yeah. So in essence, maybe it's true, maybe it's not. NO ONE alive today can prove that shit. Why? You weren't alive then.

Heaven or hell can be right here on earth, why do you need to come up with a 'supernatural being' to explain why you're here? Just enjoy the life you have and try to live it the best you can.

I don't have to believe in any being to KNOW I exist, or how I came to be. For me, it's relatively simple - my parents had sex, boom here I am.

I don't think Jesus, or anyone else, can save us. We have the ability to 'save' ourselves. And honestly - all the overzealous xtians can preach about a life of pious actions and blah blah here will offer them greater reward in heaven, but why live a shitty life now to be 'rewarded' then? Supposedly, many xtians say that once you REACH heaven, you won't really remember your former life on earth. I suppose to stop your suffering when you realize this or that person is not there with you. What's the point in living here then, if you don't remember the lessons you learned?

And the bible also says the sins of the father will be visited upon the son. yeah. real gracious of the big old guy to blame us for shit we didn't even get the chance to do.

Jesus saved us? HA.

No one can save you but yourself. And if you don't care to do that, oh well.

Salvation is at hand, and no supernatural being created out of human's minds can help or hinder you unless you let YOUR beliefs get in the way.

Save yourself from organised religion. That's the only saving worth doing.

After all, it seems supernatural beings put us here to find our own way. Besides. the bible has been raped and rearranged so many times, how the hell can you believe anything that is in it and think it is absolute truth?

Bullshit, that's what all of it is.

Jesus couldn't save himself ("Oh, but he WANTED to die for us!") so how do you expect him to save us? And if YOU can't save yourself,how do you expect anyone else to?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

How did he lie to her ?

I was laying the groundwork for "why we actually believe" that pain during childbirth was a consequence of original sin.

I don't see anythign petty about punishing your "children" for disobeying.



"And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

"for when you eat of it" adam did not die until he was 930 years old. there is no mention of eve's age when she died, but adam had a son at 800 years of age, and it should be assumed that it was with eve.

anyways, the point is that since the bible is the 'literal word of God', we must conclude that God lied about the immediacy of death after eating the fruit of the tree. now, before you think ill of God, just remember that he's only human fiction.

The story goes something like:

Jesus gets an ass-kicking for reasons still unknown.

i fucked the pope.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:



"And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

"for when you eat of it" adam did not die until he was 930 years old. there is no mention of eve's age when she died, but adam had a son at 800 years of age, and it should be assumed that it was with eve.

anyways, the point is that since the bible is the 'literal word of God', we must conclude that God lied about the immediacy of death after eating the fruit of the tree. now, before you think ill of God, just remember that he's only human fiction.

And here, you show your ignorance for God's purpose.

Did it not occur to you, even once, that as God had made Adam in His image, He had intended Him to live forever, physically ?

He was specifically referring to Adam's physical existence.

Also, polygamy wasn't unheard of for most of the Old Testament, and the Bible mentions early on in Genesis that Cain went off and had children, so your assumption about Eve's age at death is unfounded. I am not saying you are incorrect, I am saying you have nothing to base that assumption on.

God was clearly not telling Adam he would die IMMEDIATELY after eating the apple. Would kind of put a hamper on procreation.

actually, it did occur to me, which is why i'm so glad you said that...

"God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.'" genesis 1:28

kind of puts a hamper on procreation if everyone lives forever.

not only that, but

"Then God said, 'I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground- everything that has the breath of life in it - I give every green plant for food.' And it was so." Genesis 1:29-30

no mention of any exception. so what does that mean when God contradicts himself? remember, the bible is the literal, divinely inspired word of God.

not only that, but you say that "God was clearly not telling Adam he would die IMMEDIATELY". No, you're wrong. God was being anything but clear. the implication of saying "when you eat that you will die." is that you will die immediately.

for a supreme ruler of all reality, God sure isn't a stickler for clarity, consistency, or details.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

for a supreme ruler of all reality, God sure isn't a stickler for clarity, consistency, or details.

You are not the only one to notice that.

This is off topic, but are you guys in the US ?

It is WAY too late for me to be up, which means it is way too late for YOU to be up. *lol*

I'm going to bed...I will get to your post tomorrow, Eil.

If you are in the US, you've got more stamina than I...if not, that explains a LOT.

Ciao !

yeah, i'm in new england. 5 a.m. here... my sleep schedule is out of wack since i left my night shift job recently. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) good night, dig

Here's why Jesus had to die, and it doesn't really matter if he was a historical person or not.

His death and the context in which it occurred are a physical representation of God's way of thinking (if God "exists" or not is irrelevent [also relevent from another point of view]). This way of thinking can also be understood without understanding why Jesus died, but that doesn't matter because Jesus's dieing and God's way of thinking are the same thing anyway, even though they are different.

Adam, and thus all mankind through him, sinned, and as a punishment/reward he was executed...eventually. Jesus, who was the equal of Adam, didn't sin, and as a punishment/reward, was executed.

But he should have been given life as a reward, according to the way we, mankind, thinks. The message here is that God thinks differently than we do, and mankind has, as a group, given up this kind of thinking that Adam had before he ate the fruit.

The Bible says "love believes all things" (this is how God thinks), but if the Jesus thing hadn't happened, and Jesus had only recieved life as a reward, then someone would say "No! Love doesn't believe that a sinless man will be rewarded with death because that doesn't make sense." And he would be right.

Jesus showed there is something bigger than life or death, something more important. It is a way of thinking/living/acting/feeling/intuiting that we lost and to get it back we have to be able to understand the Jesus thing. This will eventually lead to our overcoming death. I can't tell you how, but that is just because it is not in my experience, but I can see that it will have to happen.

Eve was framed, in the storytelling sense.