during the last few years ive been seeing visions of certain things that i could not explain and later they came true.But the uncany thing about all this is that every time this happins our civilization seems to creap closer into the shit-er where in the end we kill ourselfs, and why its all coz of greed , betrail and misjudgement which i have come to beleive could this the the devils work.

me too, well instead of civilisation crumbling its dumass threads.

Don't blame the devil for mans ignorance.

Lets see....

Lucifer, aka, the "Christian" devil was known as "Morning Star"...



Jesus Christ was known as morning star...

No one uses Jesus's real name "Yusha"(sp) and no one calls Lucifer, Lucifer...

Jesus uses a fake name...

More people have been killed in the name of the christian/jewish/muslim God(s) then in the name of Sammael(Hebrew for Satan)...

Lucifer is known as God's most trusted/loved Angel till the so called "War" in the heavens...



Sure seems to me God sure has alot of tricks up his sleeves O.o

quote:Originally posted by Gyhth:

Lets see....

Lucifer, aka, the "Christian" devil was known as "Morning Star"...



Jesus Christ was known as morning star...

No one uses Jesus's real name "Yusha"(sp) and no one calls Lucifer, Lucifer...

Jesus uses a fake name...

More people have been killed in the name of the christian/jewish/muslim God(s) then in the name of Sammael(Hebrew for Satan)...

Lucifer is known as God's most trusted/loved Angel till the so called "War" in the heavens...



Sure seems to me God sure has alot of tricks up his sleeves O.o

HAHAHAHA "Jesus" is the English derivative of the HEBREW name Yeshua. Yahweh. Adonai. Elohim.

I'd like to see YOU try and read the Bible in Hebrew !

Do your homework before your go spouting off your ignorance as fact.



God...some people's kids ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Yahweh is the original name for the jewish god. Are you sure it's also a translation of jesus?

Edit: It would be very interesting if both Jesus and Lucifer have been known as the morning star. I have to check on that.

Edit: Thank's for the clarification uncus.



[This message has been edited by great_sage=heaven (edited 08-31-2004).]

You should the devil is a fucking ass hole

he tricks everybody it to doing bad things .

But if you become a muslim it becomes harder for the devil to trick you beacause musilim is the the best religon.



quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Don't blame the devil for mans ignorance.

quote:Originally posted by benz:

You should the devil is a fucking ass hole

he tricks everybody it to doing bad things .

But if you become a muslim it becomes harder for the devil to trick you beacause musilim is the the best religon.





The best religion for teaching intolerance ?

"Kill everyone that isn't a Muslim."

Sounds like something I want to be a part of !

quote:Originally posted by great_sage=heaven:

Yahweh is the original name for the jewish god. Are you sure it's also a translation of jesus?

YHVH is the name of the God of the Old Testament. These four letters. Some made "Yahweh" out of it (spelling and pronunciation depending on your language), others Jehovah.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

HAHAHAHA "Jesus" is the English derivative of the HEBREW name Yeshua. Yahweh. Adonai. Elohim.

Adonai is another name of Yahweh, used AFAIK in certain rites. Elohim OTOH, is a plural. I think you see it only in Genesis, in the beginning where it says something like "Elohim were drifting above the waters" or something of the sort. Must be checked.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The best religion for teaching intolerance ?

you mean other than christianity?

[This message has been edited by jer (edited 08-31-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by jer:

you mean other than christianity?

[This message has been edited by jer (edited 08-31-2004).]

Hmmm...is this "Rust" ? *laughs*

I am a Christian, and am not intolerant. I am persistent.

I know plenty of Christians, and none could be considered intolerant...quite the contrary.

But thanks for your opinion.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

YHVH is the name of the God of the Old Testament. These four letters. Some made "Yahweh" out of it (spelling and pronunciation depending on your language), others Jehovah.



Yahoshua, which = Yeshua (meaning; Salvation - God Saves)

I said Yahweh, and meant Yeshua. My bad...(even Christians make mistakes on occasion ! *WINKS*)

Now, the reason I went on to use Adonai, and Elohim is for the simple fact that Jesus and God are the same entity, essentially. I guess I was reaching a bit there. Sorry...I'll explain my tangents from now on. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

And from what I understand, YHWH was written on the sign that they placed over Jesus' head when he was crucified. It read, "Yahweh, king of the Jews." or maybe it was INRI...*shrugs*

Yahshua’s name was not known to most translators. Jewish Masoretic priests, around the 6th century A.D., created the name Jesus by changing the vowel point from the letter “a” to “e” in the Tetragrammaton YHWH. This resulted in changing the pronunciation from Yah to Yeh.

The priests continued the tradition, which was in effect at the time of the Messiah, of teaching the people that the name “Yahweh” was too sacred to pronounce, and to speak this name was blasphemy and punishable by death. Most people and lower level priests were initially taught to say “Adonai” when they saw the name “Yahweh” or the tetragrammaton written.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

HAHAHAHA "Jesus" is the English derivative of the HEBREW name Yeshua. Yahweh. Adonai. Elohim.

I'd like to see YOU try and read the Bible in Hebrew !

Do your homework before your go spouting off your ignorance as fact.



God...some people's kids ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

If it's his name, why translate it? We didn't translate "God" now did we, and isn't he the "supposed" son of this figure?



And yes, Lucifer is called "Morning Star" in some biblical books and what not, and as is Jesus. There is even a religion based off of it called Luciferianism, which basicly is the belief that there is only heaven, and that Lucifer is a being that shows freedom, wisdom and afew other aspects that currently seem to elude me. It's basicly the belief that Lucifer is still God's beloved angel and that Lucifer is just doing God's will.

quote:Originally posted by great_sage=heaven:

Yahweh is the original name for the jewish god. Are you sure it's also a translation of jesus?

Edit: It would be very interesting if both Jesus and Lucifer have been known as the morning star. I have to check on that.

Edit: Thank's for the clarification uncus.



[This message has been edited by great_sage=heaven (edited 08-31-2004).]



Jesus is a translation of Yeshua which is a form of Joshua.

Joshua means: a savior; a deliverer

I read somewhere that matches used to be called Lucifer sticks.. something to do with phosphorus and the morning star.

Too many books to go through this time of night.. aka i'm too lazy right now..if anyone is interested i'd be happy to look it up later.

I dont recall Jesus being called the morning star, though.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Hmmm...is this "Rust" ? *laughs*

I am a Christian, and am not intolerant. I am persistent.

I know plenty of Christians, and none could be considered intolerant...quite the contrary.

But thanks for your opinion.

how many Muslims do u know?

all the Muslims i talked do not believe in killing all non-Muslims. infact, all the ppl who teach that Islam teaches that are far-right conservative shitheads; both Christian ones and non Christians.

btw i had a long conversation with a Muslim from Turkey awhile back and he said that his community believes that Christians, Jews and Muslims follow the same god and that Islam even permits Muslims to marry Christians and Jews. it was a very interesting conversation and i learned alot about how Muslims really are. it is a shame that many Christians are so intolerant when they condemn others just because they wear a turbin and read a different book.

[This message has been edited by soul flayer (edited 09-01-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Gyhth:

If it's his name, why translate it? We didn't translate "God" now did we, and isn't he the "supposed" son of this figure?

And yes, Lucifer is called "Morning Star" in some biblical books and what not, and as is Jesus. There is even a religion based off of it called Luciferianism, which basicly is the belief that there is only heaven, and that Lucifer is a being that shows freedom, wisdom and afew other aspects that currently seem to elude me. It's basicly the belief that Lucifer is still God's beloved angel and that Lucifer is just doing God's will.

"God" was not "God". He was Yahweh, as Uncus pointed out, though that word was never uttered. Scholars began using the name "Adonai" whenever they saw the word "Yahweh" written, because it was believed that God's name was too holy for humans to say it.

So, we did translate it.

When the New Testament was written in Greek, the letter "J" was not in the alphabet. Jesus' name was actually written "Iesous". When the Greek was translated into English by King James' scholars, it was altered into "Jesus".

It was translated, because we don't speak Greek, or Hebrew.

Imagine how we'd butcher them ! *lol*

I never argued that Lucifer was not given the title of the "Morning Star" in the Bible. I still maintain that Jesus was never referred to as this, though I could be wrong. I have looked, and didn't find a reference.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-01-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

how many Muslims do u know?

all the Muslims i talked do not believe in killing all non-Muslims. infact, all the ppl who teach that Islam teaches that are far-right conservative shitheads; both Christian ones and non Christians.

btw i had a long conversation with a Muslim from Turkey awhile back and he said that his community believes that Christians, Jews and Muslims follow the same god and that Islam even permits Muslims to marry Christians and Jews. it was a very interesting conversation and i learned alot about how Muslims really are. it is a shame that many Christians are so intolerant when they condemn others just because they wear a turbin and read a different book.

[This message has been edited by soul flayer (edited 09-01-2004).]

I don't condemn them for wearing turbans, and for reading different books. I don't even condemn them for reading the Koran ! *lol*

Why don't you read it ? There are MANY references to "purging" the filth from the world. "Disembowel" your enemy (a.k.a anyone that doesn't follow Muslim beliefs). It's actually pretty scary.

I don't just say things to make myself sound knowledgable. If you'd like the verses I am referring to, I'd be more than happy to provide them.

Ok, I'll explain YHWH........

Yahweh literally means "I am who am". It was considered a mortal sin to say the word Yahweh, Think about it.....

When you say Yahweh, you are literally saying "I am who am". You couldn't claim to be God. It was arguably the worst trangression to the Jews.

You also couldn't write God's true name. So they took the vowels out... Thusly YWHW.



And that's the truth behind YWHW.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I don't condemn them for wearing turbans, and for reading different books. I don't even condemn them for reading the Koran ! *lol*

Why don't you read it ? There are MANY references to "purging" the filth from the world. "Disembowel" your enemy (a.k.a anyone that doesn't follow Muslim beliefs). It's actually pretty scary.

I don't just say things to make myself sound knowledgable. If you'd like the verses I am referring to, I'd be more than happy to provide them.

since u are obviously not a Muslim, and you are telling me something contrary to what a Muslim told me about his beliefs, i think i am more likely to believe the Muslim over you.

i have seen verses in the Koran that supposedly back up the beliefs about Muslims of ppl like yourself, but as u know similar things have been said about our Christain Bible. the usual reply to claims on how our Bible doesnt agree with us r normally refuted by saying that the person making the claim is taking one verse out of context. some of the teaching in our Bible say that it is all right to sell your daughter for money and it is all right to kill your daughter if u suspect that she had premarital sex. we obviously dont agree with that today (well i dont; dont know about u)

anothter thing too is that when u translate things from different languages, things can get fucked up(including the Bible). from what i hear, the only true Koran is in Arabic or whatever and that translations

anyways what i am basically saying is that i believe it when practicing Muslims says something about thier beleifs as opposed to a non Muslim who proclaims something about others beliefs. u may say that Muslims claim that they believe they need to kill nonMuslims, but similar things can be said about Christianity. ever heard of the Army of God? well they are the ppl who blow up abortion clinics and such. the KKK also claims to be a Christian group but we all know what they have done.

^^^

About the translation thing. The english new testament has a 96% purity level. It's nearly perfectly translated. The only things that are hard to translate are feelings associated with words.

For example, there are like 9 different greek words for Love. They would have known exactly what kind of "love" was being written about, however we only know one word for "love".

quote:Originally posted by soul flayer:

since u are obviously not a Muslim, and you are telling me something contrary to what a Muslim told me about his beliefs, i think i am more likely to believe the Muslim over you.

i have seen verses in the Koran that supposedly back up the beliefs about Muslims of ppl like yourself, but as u know similar things have been said about our Christain Bible. the usual reply to claims on how our Bible doesnt agree with us r normally refuted by saying that the person making the claim is taking one verse out of context. some of the teaching in our Bible say that it is all right to sell your daughter for money and it is all right to kill your daughter if u suspect that she had premarital sex. we obviously dont agree with that today (well i dont; dont know about u)

anothter thing too is that when u translate things from different languages, things can get fucked up(including the Bible). from what i hear, the only true Koran is in Arabic or whatever and that translations

anyways what i am basically saying is that i believe it when practicing Muslims says something about thier beleifs as opposed to a non Muslim who proclaims something about others beliefs. u may say that Muslims claim that they believe they need to kill nonMuslims, but similar things can be said about Christianity. ever heard of the Army of God? well they are the ppl who blow up abortion clinics and such. the KKK also claims to be a Christian group but we all know what they have done.

Simply because a group of people says that they are of God, doesn't mean that they are.

If you read the Bible, you will be able to distinctly tell who is a true Christian and who is not.

As Tribe has said, the Bible is very accurately translated.

I will get the verses I was referring to...and you can tell ME how they could have been misinterpretted !

(just because I am not a Mormon doesn't mean I don't understand the religion, or don't know the Koran well enough to have an opinion about it. I haven't read the whole thing, though...I'm working on it.)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Why don't you read it ? There are MANY references to "purging" the filth from the world. "Disembowel" your enemy (a.k.a anyone that doesn't follow Muslim beliefs). It's actually pretty scary.



How often do they actuly try to do that? There are few wacko sects in every religion. Judging Islam by the Taliban is like judgeing Christainity by the Klu Klux Klan.

Even if the Koran talk about killing non-belivers it is not that diferent that the Bible. Acording to Christians non-belivers burn in Hell for all eternity. Muslims are suposed to help God out by not allowing them to contaminate the world. Chritians have done the same thing many times in the past.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

How often do they actuly try to do that? There are few wacko sects in every religion. Judging Islam by the Taliban is like judgeing Christainity by the Klu Klux Klan.

Even if the Koran talk about killing non-belivers it is not that diferent that the Bible. Acording to Christians non-belivers burn in Hell for all eternity. Muslims are suposed to help God out by not allowing them to contaminate the world. Chritians have done the same thing many times in the past.

Judging by the fact that the majority of the world's conflicts stem from Muslim extremists groups, I would say quite a few.

I am not pulling that out of thin air...if you want statistics, I will provide them.

The Bible does not tell us to kill non-believers. Anything in the Old Testament is used strictly for reference purposes, as the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ nullified the need for us to live under the law, instead of for salvation.

The New Testament does not tell us to go out killing everyone that isn't a Christian. That would be the opposite of the teaching "spread the gospel", and "love your neighbor as you would yourself"...that is not circumstantial to their religious beliefs.

God ordained that anyone who doesn't accept Him as their savior would go to Hell, because they embrace their sin, and He cannot be in the presence of sin.

Please give some examples of how "Christians" have demonstrated the mentality of "purging the earth of those who don't believe".

C'mon, Python...you can do better than this.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Please give some examples of how "Christians" have demonstrated the mentality of "purging the earth of those who don't believe".



The Salem witch trials. It is doubtfull that any of the condemed were actuly Pagans but they were tried and hanged.

At various times in England's history Catholocism was outlawed. Many a priest was exicuted. Some building still standing have hiden rooms and chamber to harbor preists and item nesesary for mass.

It is true that when Chriastians purge unbelivers they normaly only kill a few then use the fear generated by this to convert the rest.

Missinaries in general. They may not kill many but they destroy cultural treasures and then go to work on the culture itself. Bribery is a very normal tacktic. Guns, beads and food are common rewards for converting. The Church of England is curently reviving the practice by offering chocolate after the service.

Look at Mexico, it was converted when the king was held for ransom. The ransom was set at a room full of gold to a line near the ceiling. The ransom was paid and the king was promply exicuted. The Spanish then set to work converting the people.

"It is a Sunday morning in Advent in the year 1511. In apalm-roofed church in the New World, a Dominican friar named Antonio de Montesinos ascends the pulpit. His text is, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness."

In John the Baptist fashion, the fearless Montesinos hurls thunder at his shocked congregation. ' By what right and by what justice do you hold the Indians in such cruel and horrible bondage? Aren't they dying, or better said, aren't you killing them to get gold every day? Are you not obliged to love them as you love yourselves? Don't you understand this, don't you feel it?' Then Montesinos makes his way through the astounded multitude. A murmur of fury swells up. 'We'll denounce you to the king. You will be deported!'

One bewildered man remains silent. The son of a merchant who crossed the Atlantic with Columbus on his second voyage, this man has already made a great fortune on the colonies. He is a secular preist and encomendero, Bartolome de las Casas, owner of slaves, gold mines and vast plantations. On this day he takes another step on a journey of solidarity far more demanding and dangerous than crossing an ocean.

Las Casas reflects on the Book of Ecclesiastes (Sirach 34:20-22):

'Like one who kills a son before his father's eyes is the person who offers a sacrifice from the property of the poor. The bread of the needy is the life of the poor, whoever deprives them of it is a murderer. To take away a neighbour's living is to commit a murder; to deprive an employee of wages is to shed blood.'

In the light of what the Dominicans were preaching and the harsh reality he saw around him, Las Casas became convinced, as recorded in Gustavo Gutierrez's book Las Casas: In search of the Poor of Jesus Christ , that what was being done to the natives peoples of the Indies was "unjust and tyrannical". He recognized with horror the tragic relationship between greed for gold and death, turned his life around in repentence, sold his plantations, and freed his slaves.

Called the Apostle to the Indians, Bartolome began a lifelong ministry that would last almost fifty years as an advocate for the indigineous peoples of the Americas. In Nicaragua and Guatemala, he worked for peaceful colonization and denounced at every turn the violent conquest of native communities. What he learned with regard to the unjust treatment of the indigenous communities of the Americas ultimately helped him perceive the terrible violenece being done to Africans and led him to an unequivocal rejection of black slavery. He criss-crossed the Atlantic many times, combining his pastoral work in the Americas with advocacy in the Royal Court of Spain, where he finally succeeded in having slavary banished.

When he was an old man he left America for the last time, his return to Spain did not interrupt his pastoral activity on behalf of the people of the Americas. He wrote a history of the Americas from the perspective of the idigenous people, which helped to expose the tradgedy of the conquest that is at the heart of American history.

Bartolome de Las Casas is the spiritual father of every person of faith in the Americas who has struggled to cross over to the other side of humanity. His is the story of a conversion that empowered him to cross over the deep divisions in the New World- divisions of race, class, and culture. Barolome is most assuredly one of that great cloud of witnesses who accompany us on this journey from the center to the margins."

-From Ched Meyer's Say to this Mountain

And as Jesus says... "go and do likewise"

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

The Salem witch trials. It is doubtfull that any of the condemed were actuly Pagans but they were tried and hanged.

At various times in England's history Catholocism was outlawed. Many a priest was exicuted. Some building still standing have hiden rooms and chamber to harbor preists and item nesesary for mass.

It is true that when Chriastians purge unbelivers they normaly only kill a few then use the fear generated by this to convert the rest.

Missinaries in general. They may not kill many but they destroy cultural treasures and then go to work on the culture itself. Bribery is a very normal tacktic. Guns, beads and food are common rewards for converting. The Church of England is curently reviving the practice by offering chocolate after the service.

Look at Mexico, it was converted when the king was held for ransom. The ransom was set at a room full of gold to a line near the ceiling. The ransom was paid and the king was promply exicuted. The Spanish then set to work converting the people.



Uhhh..though the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials called themselves Protestant's, they hadn't long been broken off from the Catholic Church. Their ideals were pretty much the same.

I don't deny that many have been murdered in the name of God, but if you understand Christianity as the Bible lays it out to be, you would know that the people committing these atrocities are NOT Christians. God commands us "Thou shalt not kill". I don't believe this was circumstantial. It was definitive.

As for the rest of your post, it was irrelevant. We were talking about murders...but if you'd still like me to give some examples of why some of what you said isn't so bad, I will.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Uhhh..though the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials called themselves Protestant's, they hadn't long been broken off from the Catholic Church. Their ideals were pretty much the same.

They called themselves Puritans.

I would really like to hear some reasons why killing people is ok.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Judging by the fact that the majority of the world's conflicts stem from Muslim extremists groups, I would say quite a few.

I am not pulling that out of thin air...if you want statistics, I will provide them.

yes you are. i want those stats. most of the world's conflicts stem from territorial disputes, poverty, despotic governments, and above all, cultural (i.e., religious) differences. and the most war-torn area of the world is the continent of africa, which is also the poorest, has the most nations, and is the most culturally diverse (if not religiously).

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The Bible does not tell us to kill non-believers. Anything in the Old Testament is used strictly for reference purposes, as the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ nullified the need for us to live under the law, instead of for salvation.

the bible as a reference source? are you kidding? the old testament - an ancient collection of contradicting histories, irrelevent narratives and useless dogma - as a reference source for the purpose of supporting your a priori belief in the contradicting history, irrelevent narrative, and useless dogma of the new testament? you're serious?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The New Testament does not tell us to go out killing everyone that isn't a Christian. That would be the opposite of the teaching "spread the gospel", and "love your neighbor as you would yourself"...that is not circumstantial to their religious beliefs.

that's because the new testament encourages passive aggressive tendencies. 'don't kill any sinners, that'll just get you in trouble... just wait in quiet, hopeful expectation for the great cleansing of the rapture. after which, we'll dance around in heaven as our sisters and brothers burn in hell.' like all passive aggressive ideological filth, it promotes the creation of a cultural/psychological time bomb waiting to explode. sound familiar? the nazis laughed and danced as they burned jews in their ovens downstairs.... and they were loaded with christian mythology. yay.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Please give some examples of how "Christians" have demonstrated the mentality of "purging the earth of those who don't believe".

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

how about the crusades, the spanish inquisition, the witch trials in england, the reign of bloody mary, the conquest of the new world, the rape of the orient, and pretty much the rest of the entire first and second millenia a.d.

btw, just claiming that any christian that perpetrates a radical crime is not a 'true' christian is extremely unconvincing and does nothing to clarify the difference to anyone that hasn't experienced 'true christianity' from your exact point of view. the important thing from a discerning perspective is not the technical differences in dogma, it's the underlying common subtext of compelled belief and arbitrary classification.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

HAHAHAHA "Jesus" is the English derivative of the HEBREW name Yeshua. Yahweh. Adonai. Elohim.

I'd like to see YOU try and read the Bible in Hebrew !

Do your homework before your go spouting off your ignorance as fact.



God...some people's kids ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



yeshua is an aramaic name

and yahweh and elohim are both hebrew for god (not jesus)

Let me summarize this:

- DigitalSavior asks us to find her take on Christianity is true and not the one saying that they kill people, as does a Muslim. Obvious way to appease both: both are deemed correct about religions.

- Old Testament meant as a parable.

- Sometimes, crazy things happen.

Now calm down.

WHAT ?! I totally didn't understand what you were getting at...

Can you please explain it in a bit more detail ?

(no, I am not "simple", your sentence structure prevents me from making any sense out of your post)

quote:Originally posted by cheapandugly:



yeshua is an aramaic name

and yahweh and elohim are both hebrew for god (not jesus)

No, Yeshua is HEBREW. (ù"ò) éùå (äðåöøé)

- Yeshua` - This name is rooted in the word "yasha`" meaning "safety" in Hebrew.

Jesus and even the earliest Christians spoke Aramaic. Much of the Old Testament, such as the Book of Daniel, was originally in Aramaic though a large bulk of those codices are lost forever. Neither the Greek of the Textus Receptus upon which the New Testament is based, nor the Hebrew of the standardized Tanach upon which the Old Testament is loosely based were their native tongues.

"..portions of the Old Testament books of Daniel and Ezra are written in Aramaic...Jesus and the Apostles also spoke this language."

"In the early Christian era, Aramaic divided into east and West varieties. West Aramaic dialects includ Nabataean (formerly spoken in parts of Arabia), Palmyrene (spoken in Palmyra, which was northeast of Damascus), Palestinian-Christian, and Judeo-Aramaic. West Aramaic is still spoken in a small number of villages in Lebanon."

[Encyclopedia Britannica, Reference Index I, "Aramaic Language", page 476]

Jesus spoke Aramaic. Thus, the New Testament would have to be dependent upon it. Much of the Old Testament was in Aramaic as well, and the earliest Christian societies throughout Arabia from Palestine, to Syria, to Nabataea spoke Aramaic. So what is Jesus' name in Aramaic?

"Eesho M'sheekha" meaning "Jesus the Messiah".

- Syriac. Syriac is a late variant of Aramaic widespread in Christendom, thus coined "Christian Aramaic".

- Aramaic. Taken directly from the "Peshitta".

- Aramaic. Peshitta; with diacritical marks.

The "Peshitta" is the Aramaic New Testament and closely resembles the language of Jesus.

Thus, Jesus would have even called himself "Eesho" or more specifically "Eesa" since the Northern Palestinian Jews pronounced the letter "shin" as "seen".

- http://www.answering-christianity.com/eesa.htm#yshw

By the way, God and Jesus are one entity, so to call Jesus Elohim or Adonai or evem Yahweh would not have been inappropriate.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

They called themselves Puritans.

I would really like to hear some reasons why killing people is ok.



When did I say killing people was okay ? Try and stay on the topic at hand.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

When did I say killing people was okay ? Try and stay on the topic at hand.

As for the rest of your post, it was irrelevant. We were talking about murders...but if you'd still like me to give some examples of why some of what you said isn't so bad, I will.

Besides the part about missionaries what did I say that did not involve killing people. I know you did't say it was ok, just not so bad. They were murders yes but the were done in the name of God or to further the cause of converting the people.



The Salem witch trials. It is doubtfull that any of the condemed were actuly Pagans but they were tried and hanged.

They were not Catholic, it was over a hundred and fifty years after the Prodestants split off.



African Pentecostal Witch Hunting Guide (http://www.totse.com/en/religion/miscellaneous_religious_texts/africanpenteco173932.html)

That was writen fifteen years ago. It is either a very elaborate joke or evidence that modern christians are willing to repeat history.



At various times in England's history Catholocism was outlawed. Many a priest was exicuted. Some building still standing have hiden rooms and chamber to harbor preists and item nesesary for mass.

Those were not Murders. They were exicutions caried out in the name of the Queen in an atempt to purge Catholics from England.



Look at Mexico, it was converted when the king was held for ransom. The ransom was set at a room full of gold to a line near the ceiling. The ransom was paid and the king was promply exicuted. The Spanish then set to work converting the people.



That is also not a murder. Blah Blah Blah Catholics are'nt Christian, that is a lousy argument.



[This message has been edited by MasterPython (edited 09-03-2004).]

quote:yes you are. i want those stats. most of the world's conflicts stem from territorial disputes, poverty, despotic governments, and above all, cultural (i.e., religious) differences. and the most war-torn area of the world is the continent of africa, which is also the poorest, has the most nations, and is the most culturally diverse (if not religiously).



Well, let's just take a look at some of the conflicts that Muslims are involved in right now:



AFGHANISTAN: The war in Afghanistan is ongoing. Since Soviet troops withdrew, various Afghan groups have tried to eliminate their rivals. Although the Taliban strengthened their position in 1998 they have not achieved their final objective. Afghanistan harbours Osama bin Ladin, a wealthy Saudi Arabia dissident responsible for terrorist acts around the world. On 11 September 2001 members from bin Ladin's el Qaeda group highjacked 4 passenger jets in the USA, crashing one into the Pentagon and 2 into the World Trade Center, killing more than 2,000 citizens. The USA and its allies declared war on terrorism and counter-attacked, removing the Taliban from power. The war on terrorism and the el Qaeda continues.

ALGERIA: Armed Islamic groups formed and since 1992 have carried out attacks on key economic points, security forces, officials and foreigners. In 1995 Algeria's first multiparty presidential elections were held and the incumbent president Liamine Zeroual won 60% of the votes in a poll with a 75% turnout. The first multiparty legislative elections were held in June 1997 which were won by the National Democratic Rally, which holds the majority of seats along with the FLN. Although the armed wing of the FIS declared a ceasefire in October 1997, an extremist splinter group, the Islamic Armed Group (GIA), continued attacks. There is also evidence that many attacks are carried out by militias backed by the Algerian security forces. After years of civil strife, Amnesty International estimates that around 80,000 people have died

The Caucasus and Russia: The Central Asian republics have a long history of conflicts. Fighting breaks out regularly between warlords and religious groups calling for the establishment of Islamic states outside the Russian Federation. Russia is trying to hold on to the federation because the Caucasus is a vital supply route for the oil riches of the Caspian and Black Sea. With the break-up of the Soviet Union various groups fought for control in the republics. Conflicts from one republic spills over to the other and they continually blame each other for attacks. Chechnya, still part of Russia, was flung in an almost full-scale war in 1994-96 and, after a disastrous campaign, Russia was forced to re-evaluate its involvement in the area. In August 1999 Russia stepped up security in the Caucasus region as rebels from within Dagestan - a small republic where more than 100 languages are spoken - went on the attack in support of Chechnyan Muslim groups who claim independence from Russia. In September 1999 Russia launched a ground invasion into the area to cut rebels off from Central Asian supply routes. By January 2000 Russia was once again involved in a full scale conflict in Chechnya. The Caucasus issue is complicated by the more than 50 different ethnic groups each insisting to proclaim their religious convictions on the area. The situation holds serious danger for neighbouring countries, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Russia itself.

EYGPT: Fundamentalist Muslim rebels seek to topple the secular Egyptian government. At least 1,200 people have perished since the beginning of the rebellion. The conflict was primarily waged as an urban guerrilla/terrorist war. The opposition Muslim Brotherhood took part in elections in 2000, indicating that they felt armed force would not work.

INDONESIA: The struggle on the Indonesia islands is complicated by leaders of pro- and anti-independence movements, and by religious conflicts. More than 500 churches have been burned down or damaged by Muslims over the past six years. Both the Christians and Muslims blame each other for the violence and attempts at reconciliation made little progress. After a bloody struggle East Timor gained independence in 1999. The hostilities on other islands continue to claim dozens of lives, to such an extent that the break-up of Indonesia seem imminent.

INDIA/PAKISTAN: Muslim separatists in the Indian section declared a holy war against the mostly-Hindu India and started attacks in 1989, mainly from Pakistan-occupied section of Kashmir, and from Pakistan and Afghanistan. The conflict continues, with Pakistan also crushing rebellions with brute force in their section.

IRAQ: Supports Islamic terrorist acts around the world. Differing culture and religious groups within Iraq continues to clash with Shiite Muslims.

ISRAEL: Within its own borders, Israel continues to battle various Muslim organizations that seek independence for a Palestine state, areas made up of the Gaza strip, West.Bank, and part of Jerusalem. There is heavy international pressure on Israel to recognise a Palestinian state. The area of what today is Palestine was settled by Semitic tribes at a very early date. It was then called Canaan, and controlled by Canaanite tribes for more than 1,000 years. In about 1500 BC Hebrew, or Jewish, tribes began to enter the area. They later came into conflict with a people of Greek origin known as the Philistines. It is from them that the term Palestine is derived.



IRAN: After the Iranian Revolution in 1979 toppled the government of the Shah, the Mujahadeen Khalq soon began a bloody guerrilla war against the new Islamic government. The Mujahadeen are currently based in Iraq and conduct cross-border raids into Iran, as well as conducting urban guerrilla operations in the cities and conducting political assassinations. Iran occasionally launches raids against Khalq bases in Iraq.



KOSOVO: The ethnic Albanian KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) in this Serbian province fought a guerilla war against Serbia to claim the region. Beginning in February 1999, Albanians were forced out of the province, prompting NATO to attack Serbia. By July 1999 Serb troops were forced out of Kosovo, only to open an avenue for Albanian Kosovars to attack Serb Kosovars. The Albanian Muslims have since burned down dozens of centuries-old Christian churches. In an effort to establish a Greater Albania, Albanian Muslim rebels also launched attacks in Macedonia.

NIGERIA: There are violent religious clashes in the city of Kaduna in northern Nigeria beginning February 21 2004 and have continued. Kaduna is the second largest city in the north. The clashes followed a march by tens of thousands of Christians to protest the proposal to introduce Muslim sharia law as the criminal code throughout Kaduna state. Reports speak of rival armed gangs of Christians and Muslims roving the streets. Churches and mosques have been put to the torch. Corpses were seen lying in the streets and people's bodies hanging out of cars and buses, apparently killed while attempting to flee the violence. Local human rights workers said that more than 400 had been killed as a result of the clashes.

SUDAN: The largest country in Africa, has been plagued by a succession of unstable civilian and military governments since it gained independence in 1956 from an Anglo-Egyptian condominium. The long-running conflict continues between the Arab Muslim northerners of Sudan, (the base of the government), and the African Christians of the south. In the mid-90s Sudan was home to Osama bin Ladin, the international terrorist responsible for the World Trade Center attack. It is estimated that more than 1,2 million people have been killed in the Sudan war, brining devastation to the Sudanese economy.



UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: At war with terrorism.



PHILIPPINES: The Phillipines armed forces, with assistance of US troops, are fighting Moslem rebels - they have been linked to Osama bin Laden's el Qaeda terrorist group - on the southern islands of the country. Muslim rebel groups seek autonomy/independence from the mostly Christian Philippines. One rebel group, the Abu Sayaf Group, is believed linked to Osama bin-Laden's Al-Qaida. This connection, plus their tactic of kidnapping and beheading Americans, led the United States to send Special Forces to aid the Philippine Army.

Here are some battles in their history:

The Battle of Badr - http://www.geocities.com/badr_313/

The Battle of Badr 2 -

The Banu Quraizah - http://anwary-islam.com/battle/ghazwah_banuqurizah.html

The Battle of Hunayn - http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/hunayn.asp

The Battle of Ohod - http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/ohod.html

The Battle of Uhud 2 - http://www.1ummah.org/encyclopedia/battle_of_uhud.html



The Battle of Trench - http://www.dislam.org/jihad/trench.html

The Battle of Khaibar - http://ismaili.net/histoire/history03/history326.html

The Battle of Mut'ah - (can't find a link)

The Conquest of Makkah - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_76.html



The Battle of Ta'if - http://www.islamanswers.net/moreAbout/Hunayn.htm

The Battle of Tabuk - http://anwary-islam.com/battle/ghazwah_tabuk.html

The Conquest of Mecca - http://anwary-islam.com/battle/ghazwah_mecca.html



The battles and wars continued with Mohammed's "successors" (the "caliphs"):

"Caliph" (Arab. kalifa), "successor", was the title used by the people who took over the leadership of the Umma (the Moslem community) after the death of Mohammed. The institution of the caliphs is called the "Caliphate."

The office of caliph was held first by the Four Rightly Guided Caliphs, then by the Umayyads, and then the Abbasids. The death of the last Abbasid emperor in Baghdad ended the caliphate for all intents and purposes.

1- Abu Bakr (632-634): mAfter Mohammed’s death, the leadership of the Umma (Muslim Community) was taken up by Abu Bakr, who took the title Caliph. This title, which means "successor," indicates that he was the successor to the Prophet of God. This means that he claimed all Mohammed’s political and administrative power, and that he became the religious leader. Arabia is unified under Islam by 634.

2- Umar (634-644): Umar, the second Caliph, lead the Moslem troops to conquer all of Arabia, and then north into Palestine, Syria, Iraq and Iran, as well as westward into Egypt and North Africa. He was murdered by a Muslim slave in 644.

3- Uthman (644-656): The third Caliph, was elected over the strong contesting by Mohammed’s cousin and son-in-law Ali.



Uthman finalizes the Quran

Although a pious and humble man, he was a weak ruler and too much influenced by his relatives of the Umayyad clan of the Koreish tribe (who had been "late" converts to Islam).

Finally, his supporters turned on him and he was killed by a mob of Muslims in 656.

4- Ali (656-661): Ali became the last Rightly Guided Caliph in 656.

Of the four Rightly Guided Caliphs, Ali was the only one who was a close blood relative of Mohammed. From Mohammed’s death, his followers thought that the succession should not be decided by election, but by birth. They thought that the ability to communicate with Allah was passed on in this way.

These followers were known as the "Shia" ("party") of Ali, formed the basis of what later became Shiite Islam. When Ali was elected Caliph, they believed that their views would finally dominate, but after Ali’s assassination, the leadership of the umma moved to the Umayyads.

Ali was assassinated in 661 by Muawiyah, the founder of the Umayyad Dynasty, who took his place as caliph.

Muslim loyalties split, but most remained Sunnis, loyal to the Umayyad Dynasty (about 80% of Muslims). Ali's descendant led the splinter group, the Shi'ites (about 10% of Muslims). Islam Religion

Moslem-controlled territory at the end of the period governed by the Four Righteous Caliphs: Map #1.

By 640, Islamic military campaigns had brought all of Mesopotamia and most of Syria and Palestine under the control of Islam. Egypt was conquered by 642 and the Persian Empire by 643. These were some of the richest regions in the world guarded by powerful militaries—and they fell into Islamic hands in a heartbeat.



They took control of Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, all Mesopotamia... capturing Damascus in 635, Jerusalem in 638, Cairo in 641, Alexandria in 642...Iraq and Persia 640-644, North Africa 647, Cypress 649 ...



Would you please produce a list of the times that Jesus took up a sword and engaged in wars of conquest?

When you fail to do this (most likely by simply ignoring this request as if it never existed), you will begin to perceive the rather obvious differences here.

Finally, I am well aware that there are indeed moderate Muslims today who regard selected teachings as not really meaning what they say. They also recognize the fact that continuing to abide by the example of their prophet in spreading the "religion of peace" by means of war, and even murder, is quite a stretch. I salute their profound grasp of the obvious and would encourage a continued search along these lines.

But no one who is even remotely familiar with the history of Islam, and more improtantly, the undisputed historical facts of the life and actions of Mohammad himself, could even begin to deny that HE himself was a man who chose to kill people who did not submit to his authority.

And no one with a rational mind can deny the self-evident difference between THAT "prophet" and the example lived out by Jesus Christ who not only never killed anyone but even died for his executioners while forgiving them.

I will keep looking for that statistics page...I can't seem to find it at the moment. (please have patience)

I'd like to continue this post, but alas ! I must return home. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



God hates idolatry- - - - ->Religion is idolatry

Reject Religion- - - - ->Embrace Jesus

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-04-2004).]

^^ Are you saying that wouldn't happen if those countries were run by Fundementalist Christians instead of Fundementalist Mulism?

There are so many religions that sugest different views on things but to me it doesnt realy matter who is right and who is wrong every one is going to think the way were told or grown to beleive.Now for me i dont read the bible nor do i go to chirch but yet the way i think about life is that the word god is a higher form that we as people turn to for either forgiveness, friendship, hope, guidence and many other reasons for which you feel comfortable.And lucifer i think of as a shaded character whom is often miss judged but yet still not predictable as if he were then why would he carry a bad name for himself through a number of religens.so who is to say that he couldnt pull off such a trick.also i beleive strongly that there is an evil presence out there for one night something happened that i dare not talk about for people would judge me wrong over it.PS sorry my if my spelling isnt the best.

quote:Originally posted by benz:

You should the devil is a fucking ass hole

he tricks everybody it to doing bad things .

But if you become a muslim it becomes harder for the devil to trick you beacause musilim is the the best religon.





Aslaamu Alaikum,I agree brother.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

YHVH is the name of the God of the Old Testament. These four letters. Some made "Yahweh" out of it (spelling and pronunciation depending on your language), others Jehovah.



Actually it was YHWH.Hence YAWEH



And Jesus's name was Esau (or Isa in Arabic)

I believe the name Jesus is Latin

[This message has been edited by YoungWarriorPrince (edited 09-04-2004).]

in response to digital_savior:

you were right, i was wrong. the majority of wars do involve muslims. HOWEVER, it is a slight majority. there are almost as many christians involved in conflict. therefore, it does not support your claim that most wars stem from the inherent dark nature of islam. besides, it may very well be the case that there are more muslims living in poverty, or that have had land taken from them in recent history (i.e. - starting with the crusades, thru colonialism, up until the current western-dominated global economic revolution). or many other reasons.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm



[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 09-05-2004).]