From what we are told about God, he is omniscient, omnipotent, good and loves each and every one of us. But I see a very different side to God, an insecure side. Because you see, even though God loves us all, knows everything about us (can even see our future, remember, he told Jesus he was going to die), if we refuse to accept him as our God, and worship him accordingly, we will burn forever in eternal hellfire. Now to me, this smacks of insecurity, in some ways, this is very childish behaviour, if you refuse to accept me, I will make you experience pain like no other for all eternity. Now, why does God do this? Especially since he can see our futures, and therefore, knows all of the choices we will make. If God can see our future, this really means that we don't have the free will to choose, as the path is already set down for us. And if that path, which we have not chosen to go down, leads us to not accept God, we are going to burn for eternal hellfire.

Now I know that was just a bunch of ramblings, but can anyone give me some kind of answers to these questions. Is God just a petty, insecure child longing for acceptance? Do we actually have choice if God can see the path that we will travel? And if not, then why are we punished for something we did not choose to do?

Your talking about the beliefs of 1 religeon. Not all religeons believe that god punishes us by throwing us into a pit of eternal torture.

The whole "Fire and Brimstone" thing is just a means of controlling the masses. You know: "Conform to our ideology or be excommunicated!" Anyone with a rational mind should question this. I mean what kind of cocky fuck thinks they can speak for the will of God? The superstitious flock are easily swayed by guilt.

[This message has been edited by Dead Helmsman (edited 08-30-2004).]

^ As are the skeptical flock by their own cultural discourses, ideologies and paradigms.

I don't believe it is insecurity that causes God to require complete sumbission. In order to be in His presence, one must be "blemish" free...meaning SINLESS.

Since we could never accomplish such a thing (we are born into it), we must seek Christ (and by extension, God) for redemption.

I think it is the fact that God longs for a relationship with us. In order for that relationship to be fulfilling, you must fellowship with Him through prayer, etc.

I don't see how this shows God as insecure...if anything, I am flattered that He would desire a relationship with me, and am more than willing to give the submission necessary to have a fulfilling relationship with my maker.

If you would like some scripture on this, I can supply it...just let me know. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

^ As are the skeptical flock by their own cultural discourses, ideologies and paradigms.

Not a skeptic, just raised southern baptist. Nothing like it to scar your spiritual upbringing. I've come to terms with God, I just have problems with his so-called representatives.

This is why I maintain that religion only serves to stifle the spiritual growth of God's people...religion is man-created.

What do you mean by "come to terms" ?

I went through the phase of rebellion against religion for awhile, but it was more of a violent cleaning of the slate than a straight-up antithetical stance. I have since found a renewed belief in God, albeit without the extreme guilt and rigid cultural mores I was brought up with.

The Southern Baptist mentality is full of guilt...and it worries me how little they emphasize God's love for His people.

I don't feel that the "hellfire and brimstone" mentality is widely successful, and there are obvious reasons why.

People don't like to be told that they are guilty, that they must repent, and that this is all there is to God. How is this attractive ? You guilty, and you must repent, but you do these things because GOD LOVES YOU, and He wants to be close to you ! If you are burdened by your sins, then how can you accomplish that ?

I think the Bible is pretty clear. If you read it, God will tell you what you need to know, and the more you read it, the more you understand.

I can read the same verse 30 times, and it will mean something new every time. This, I believe, is the primary way that God speaks to us.

I have found very little use for religion, when it comes to having a fulfilling relationship with God. The Bible says that we are to gather together in order to encourage one another, and to worship him with praise. He didn't say, "Make up your own little rules, in order to form a new segment of Christianity. This will allow for control, gain, and power." Gathering together does not constitute the formation of NEW laws and rituals.

So, would you call what you experienced (rebellion) a sort of "refiner's fire" ?

quote:Originally posted by Dead Helmsman:

The whole "Fire and Brimstone" thing is just a means of controlling the masses. You know: "Conform to our ideology or be excommunicated!" Anyone with a rational mind should question this. I mean what kind of cocky fuck thinks they can speak for the will of God? The superstitious flock are easily swayed by guilt.

[This message has been edited by Dead Helmsman (edited 08-30-2004).]



I think the problem with the "controlling the masses" arguement is that it does not adress the basic human desire to do what one wants when now one is looking.

Me saying this, probably means nothing to athiests. But Christians can (should be able to) attest to the fact that we all "try God's patience". At times we do things that we know to be against God's Will.

There is more to say on the matter, but i shall leave it open ended.

quote:Originally posted by Dead Helmsman:

Not a skeptic, just raised southern baptist. Nothing like it to scar your spiritual upbringing. I've come to terms with God, I just have problems with his so-called representatives.

lol.. sounds like we have a bit in common.

You can almost here them say "Jesus, save us from your followers"

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



I think the problem with the "controlling the masses" arguement is that it does not adress the basic human desire to do what one wants when now one is looking.

Me saying this, probably means nothing to athiests. But Christians can (should be able to) attest to the fact that we all "try God's patience". At times we do things that we know to be against God's Will.

There is more to say on the matter, but i shall leave it open ended.



People can never be controlled absolutely. To parallel your comment: The seeming submission is definitely only surface-level. Most of the Christians I have day to day contact with seem like they think "buy" salvation if they are good little Christians and go to church and tithe every week and pretend to like the people they talk shit about through the week. It's just a show for the other good little christians, and therin lay the issue of control. I know these are only corruptions of the actual tennets of their faith, but Faith and Religion are very separate in my mind.

I was a very earnest Christian at one point. Then I began to question the hypocricy I was constantly surrounded by, the dual nature of these seemingly devout people. Not only that, but the arrogance! That God, in his infinite wisdom and pervasive presence, would only reveal himself to ONE relatively small culture absolutely? Any human may gain insight, but words are shallow compared to the Divine. The only way to describe these things is to use language that's relevant to your culture. At their ROOT, most religions are describing the same FEELING, the same experience of the DIVINE. But each uses different symbology to get the point across.

Knowing the future does not mean you didnt choose how to get there. My brother is watching Last of the Mohicans, which we have seen a million times. I KNOW Magua gets killed by an angry father- Magua still chose to be there and fight him.

The author of the script caused Magua to choose to be there. Anyway, wrong thread.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The Southern Baptist mentality is full of guilt...and it worries me how little they emphasize God's love for His people.

I don't feel that the "hellfire and brimstone" mentality is widely successful, and there are obvious reasons why.

People don't like to be told that they are guilty, that they must repent, and that this is all there is to God. How is this attractive ? You guilty, and you must repent, but you do these things because GOD LOVES YOU, and He wants to be close to you ! If you are burdened by your sins, then how can you accomplish that ?

I think the Bible is pretty clear. If you read it, God will tell you what you need to know, and the more you read it, the more you understand.

I can read the same verse 30 times, and it will mean something new every time. This, I believe, is the primary way that God speaks to us.

I have found very little use for religion, when it comes to having a fulfilling relationship with God. The Bible says that we are to gather together in order to encourage one another, and to worship him with praise. He didn't say, "Make up your own little rules, in order to form a new segment of Christianity. This will allow for control, gain, and power." Gathering together does not constitute the formation of NEW laws and rituals.

So, would you call what you experienced (rebellion) a sort of "refiner's fire" ?

My poor dear...I regret to inform your slight ignorance in prior statements.

You have a clear belief that the a path towards Jesus (a man who once inhaled common air) is a guiding light for a population of damned souls that KNOW factualy the same valid ethics that have brought you here. To assume that your perspective of faith and understanding will impact a group so deep in debate over religious ideals is naive. Your statements have profoundly contradicted your historical rambling of the bible. Any human being so enlightened would choose to portray themselves in a manner more becoming to thier maker.

I envision your attempt at prolific fame as your own insecurity. Fame my dear in your own mind. We can only be forced into an empathetic loop of ridicule to make clear our appreciation for your pathetic ranting.

quote:Originally posted by haktwau:

My poor dear...I regret to inform your slight ignorance in prior statements.

You have a clear belief that the a path towards Jesus (a man who once inhaled common air) is a guiding light for a population of damned souls that KNOW factualy the same valid ethics that have brought you here. To assume that your perspective of faith and understanding will impact a group so deep in debate over religious ideals is naive. Your statements have profoundly contradicted your historical rambling of the bible. Any human being so enlightened would choose to portray themselves in a manner more becoming to thier maker.

I envision your attempt at prolific fame as your own insecurity. Fame my dear in your own mind. We can only be forced into an empathetic loop of ridicule to make clear our appreciation for your pathetic ranting.

Uhhh...*takes away the crack pipe* The first step to healing is admitting you have a problem !

From WHAT in my posts did you come to the conclusion that I made an attempt to achieve prolific fame ?

Let's see...I talked about how threatening people with Hell doesn't exactly support the "love" testimony set forth by the life and death of Jesus Christ...

I spoke of how repenting for your sins doesn't save you from Hell, it brings you closer to God, because you are not clouded by guilt...(and are thus capable of having a fulfilling relationship with Him)

I touched upon the fact that we need to fellowship with one another in order to remain strong in our faith. The world will do nothing but tear you down...

How does this translate into some sort of ego trip on my part ?

You have come across as indignant, pompous, and not in the least bit interested in the topic at hand.

You have offered nothing valuable to the actual conversation, so I don't see where you come off attacking ME about the nature of MY posts.

My perceived naivette is exactly what God has told me to do...me, and the rest of the Christians on the planet.

Spread the word. Let no man go without hearing the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do not let your brother follow the wide path to destruction !

It has nothing to do with me...if God sees fit to use me for this purpose, then who am I to rebel against Him ?

I am here for a reason...if you don't agree with that reason, then that is quite alright. You don't have to. But please...TRY and offer something of intellectual value. Tell me why you don't agree with God, or whatever your problem may be.

Ridiculing me won't accomplish anything...especially when your attacks are unfounded.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Uhhh...*takes away the crack pipe* The first step to healing is admitting you have a problem !

From WHAT in my posts did you come to the conclusion that I made an attempt to achieve prolific fame ?

Let's see...I talked about how threatening people with Hell doesn't exactly support the "love" testimony set forth by the life and death of Jesus Christ...

I spoke of how repenting for your sins doesn't save you from Hell, it brings you closer to God, because you are not clouded by guilt...(and are thus capable of having a fulfilling relationship with Him)

I touched upon the fact that we need to fellowship with one another in order to remain strong in our faith. The world will do nothing but tear you down...

How does this translate into some sort of ego trip on my part ?

You have come across as indignant, pompous, and not in the least bit interested in the topic at hand.

You have offered nothing valuable to the actual conversation, so I don't see where you come off attacking ME about the nature of MY posts.

My perceived naivette is exactly what God has told me to do...me, and the rest of the Christians on the planet.

Spread the word. Let no man go without hearing the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do not let your brother follow the wide path to destruction !

It has nothing to do with me...if God sees fit to use me for this purpose, then who am I to rebel against Him ?

I am here for a reason...if you don't agree with that reason, then that is quite alright. You don't have to. But please...TRY and offer something of intellectual value. Tell me why you don't agree with God, or whatever your problem may be.

Ridiculing me won't accomplish anything...especially when your attacks are unfounded.



Right on!!

quote:Originally posted by Dead Helmsman:

what kind of cocky fuck thinks they can speak for the will of God?



Christianity describes "a" path toward God. It is inherently pompous to assume that your path is the only correct path.

You are right on. The deity in the Xian Bible IS petty, confesses to being jealous, fucks over Job just to win what amounts to a bar bet, etc.

The God I know and love is nothing like that.

Boooooo-Ring.