http://www.tektonics.org/nowayjose.html

Much of the Jewish traditions and customs explain the mindset of the writer's of the Bible, and how the events that took place correlate seemlessly with each other.

I believe this is why the Bible is often so misunderstood.

I am interested in finding out how this article changes the views of those who think Christians are not "dealing with a full deck".

That is a very long article, I am only able to read the first quarter of it right now, but one thing stuck out as I was reading.

quote:

It is my contention that the only way Christianity did succeed is because it was a truly revealed faith.



That is some claim. I look forward to reading the remainder of this article, to see how the author thinks this have been proved.

But, to me, the author's contention is already flawed. Are we to believe that the only reason Christianity succeeded is because it is a "truly revealed faith"?

Am I mistaken, or is this what the author is trying to prove?

I've said this before, my main problem with Christianity is that it bills itself as the "only correct religion, the one true religion". I believe any religion that says it is the only "true religion", must be false.

I'll read the rest of this article later, got to go to my temp job, now. Bye!

The premise of the article is to detail exactly why Christianity has been as successful as it has.

Basically, his contention is that it ought to have died out long ago, based on principle alone. (A savior that was "too weak" to prevent himself from being defiled on a cross isn't exactly attractive at first glance)

I, as a Christian, don't believe "Christianity" is the one true way. I believe that God, and the belief in His son as our savior is. Anything else is just fluff.

I think the fine line between religion and faith has been a wrench in the gears of Christianity for a long time. The two are often combined, and I believe they are exclusive of each other.

Read on...this guy has a gift for pointing out the obscure. (in my opinion)

Thanks for the post !

Sorry to quote Michener twice in as many days but he thought that Christianity was a great system to bring a person really close to God on an individual level but a shit way to govern a society, whereas Judaism's laws can govern a society but a 4 hour service puts people off and prevents them from getting close to God as individuals.

Read the source by J A Michener, it explains the birth of Judaism and Christianity to some extent and explains their fundamental social and political differences.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Basically, his contention is that it ought to have died out long ago, based on principle alone. (A savior that was "too weak" to prevent himself from being defiled on a cross isn't exactly attractive at first glance)



How can it die out? Only reason most other religions "died out" is because a military power from another region/religion invaded and demanded "conversion, or death!", but even then most religions are still around in the underground(Wicca, Paganism, Neo-Druidism etc).

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

I've said this before, my main problem with Christianity is that it bills itself as the "only correct religion, the one true religion". I believe any religion that says it is the only "true religion", must be false.

Unless it is true.

Anyone here remember a show called "To tell the Truth"? It had three contestants portraying a person, but only one contestant was telling the truth.

quote:Originally posted by Gyhth:



How can it die out? Only reason most other religions "died out" is because a military power from another region/religion invaded and demanded "conversion, or death!", but even then most religions are still around in the underground(Wicca, Paganism, Neo-Druidism etc).



If you had read the article, you would have seen MANY reasons why Christianity is such a hard thing to follow.

Please do, and then get back to us.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Unless it is true.

Anyone here remember a show called "To tell the Truth"? It had three contestants portraying a person, but only one contestant was telling the truth.



I DO remember, and I am only 25 ! *winks*

It was actually pretty entertaining.

I already know why it's so hard to follow; alot of my close friends follow it - even I did for a while.



So many contridictions, so many hypocritical teachings just to keep with this day and age... It's become more of a sham then a true religion. It's changed so much from a true religion, to becomming more of a modern day list of rules and regulations.



skepticsannotatedbible.com has alot of the contridictions, as well as all bible books typed up and alalyzed(sp)

quote:Originally posted by Gyhth:

I already know why it's so hard to follow; alot of my close friends follow it - even I did for a while.



So many contridictions, so many hypocritical teachings just to keep with this day and age... It's become more of a sham then a true religion. It's changed so much from a true religion, to becomming more of a modern day list of rules and regulations.



skepticsannotatedbible.com has alot of the contridictions, as well as all bible books typed up and alalyzed(sp)

Well, if you aren't going to read the article I posted, I don't see why I should entertain yours.

Why are you here ? To discredit Christianity ? *just curious*

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

Sorry to quote Michener twice in as many days but he thought that Christianity was a great system to bring a person really close to God on an individual level but a shit way to govern a society,

I don't think Christianity actually had any presumptions about governing any country or nation. I think it is written in the Gospels, "My Kingdom is not of this world".

Nowhere (AFAIK !) does it say that Christianity itself should exercise political power and assume a governmental role.

Ok, I've finished reading this article, I will admit I skimmed some sections due to lack of time, but believe I've got the main idea, please correct me if I'm wrong.

This article is written from a pro-Christian point of view, IMO, so this opens up the possibility of being biased, but I think the author did a very good job of taking the middle ground, so I won't worry about that in this case.

Some things I'd like to point out:

quote:

You start a religion by linking to obscure and nameless people. You don't talk of a synagogue ruler or a Sanhedrin member, or even a centurion being in your history (even if you don't name them; there were few enough of each of these that it would not be hard to make a check). You stick with no-names like the woman at the well. It is impossible that Christianity thrived and survived without having its ducks in a row in this regard.



Did every member of the religion thoroughly researched it's history and background, I don't think they did. How many members of Christianity just assumed these historical references were true?

I don't have any background in biblical history, so I don't know how much of biblical history has been proven.

quote:

So it is: The Jews would dislike you, the Romans would dislike you, your family would disown you, everyone would avoid or make sport of you. Furthermore, men like Paul and Matthew, and even Peter and John, gave up lucrative trades for the sake of a mission that was all too obviously going to be nothing but trouble for them. It is quite unlikely that anyone would have gone the distance for the Christian faith at any time -- unless it had something tangible behind it.



People have joined cults despite the fact that their families were against it, society was generally against it, and I'm sure some quit their jobs for it. Kind of a weak agrument, in my opinion.

In general, it gave me a lot to think about, and was well written. Thanks for this read, Digital.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Well, if you aren't going to read the article I posted, I don't see why I should entertain yours.

Why are you here ? To discredit Christianity ? *just curious*

No, I'm actually just here because I don't have anything else to do really ._.



I just try to show people the middle ground, or to show people that say "OMG! TH1S 1S S0 TRU3! U HAV 2 S33 THIS! IT'S PROVEN!" that there is also evidance that shows what they say is flawed; I try to give a middle ground approch to statements, and show people the lesser seen side of the argument, be that the Christian side, the Satanism, Luciferian, the Athiest, the agnotisc, etc. I just don't want anyone to feel that there is only one view point that actually makes sence, or is an actual view point.

It's a Christian Apologetic mission - of course it's biased.

I read the whole article at work, it was a great eater-of-time and afforded me yet another good read from the MGCBTSOOYG list.

I had lots of time to kill at work that day. I was seduced to the sidebar of this web article, and read Why Bible Critics Do Not Deserve the Benefit of the Doubt . (http://www.tektonics.org/calcon.html )

That seemed almost slapstick in nature to me, or at least the grab-you, catchy title did.

But onwards I went. I had to find out who this JP Holding fellow was. His real name is Robert Turkel, and he is somewhat of a noteworthy adversary to alot of the Secular webrings, who have a hard time taking him seriously because of his evangelistic money-grubbing dramatic tone.

One example:

Despite biblical admonitions against the sin of pride, Turkel brags constantly and with great enthusiasm about what he perceives is his thorough dismantling of skeptical arguments. He often uses very violent imagery to describe the destruction he assumes he is wreaking. Indeed, he believes that he is a "warrior" in a holy war for God, that God is actually working through him and his web site. In a plea for cash to support his efforts, Turkel wrote the following:

"We need Tekton full time. Mr. Walker's impotence and fish-flopping is plain evidence (only the latest!) of this ministry's effectiveness, of the Holy Spirit's movement through these pages. Please submit your testimony and help make full-time ministry a reality. Free my warrior side from its shackles, and let the destruction of strongholds begin in earnest."

Ex prison librarian. Dabbled in Mormonism for a time. Then went Atheist. "Reborn" into a Christian. He seems to be a great communicator. My views weren't changed, but then again - I never claimed Christians weren't "dealing with a full deck". A little deluded maybe, but that is hardly a permanent mark against their intelligence.

My opinion of the article is that the author seems a bit too high strung for my personal debate tastes. Digital_Savior, you could do a much finer job of arguing your religious viewpoints to skeptics than this man. You seem much more real and earnest.



[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 09-01-2004).]

Huh...thank you for your objective opinion.

I liked the way he pointed out the obvious flaws and unbelievable aspects of the Bible...that was pretty much it.

I didn't necessarily agree with his approach, or even everything he said.

Pride is definitely man's worst enemy. We all fall prey to it, quite easily !

I never would have expected a reply of this nature, so thank you.

I would very much like to sit around proving skeptics wrong, but I would have to quit my job in order to do it adequately. *smiles*

So, then....what about the Christian ideals seems delusional to you ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



So, then....what about the Christian ideals seems delusional to you ?

I hate to kick this dead horse because it comes up at least once in every thread here - but what seems delusional to me about Christian ideals is the "Absolute Truth" factor - it's one thing to hold an opinion or belief, but it's another to profess that this opinion or belief is the absolute truth for other people, and applies to every human being, regardless of faith or upbringing or geographical location, such as those who have never been ministered the word of God or the Christian faith principles. Also, the young earth argument. But I cannot expound on that right now... the Bossman cometh!! (I'm at work too)

*shuffles papers and continues to look busy*

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I hate to kick this dead horse because it comes up at least once in every thread here - but what seems delusional to me about Christian ideals is the "Absolute Truth" factor - it's one thing to hold an opinion or belief, but it's another to profess that this opinion or belief is the absolute truth for other people, and applies to every human being, regardless of faith or upbringing or geographical location, such as those who have never been ministered the word of God or the Christian faith principles. Also, the young earth argument. But I cannot expound on that right now... the Bossman cometh!! (I'm at work too)

*shuffles papers and continues to look busy*

If it is the only way to salvation, then what benefit would it be for us to say that there were MANY ways ?

Matthew 7:14 - Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (KJV)

Matthew 7:13 - Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

These verses say, plain as day, that the path is narrow that leads into heaven. This is one of the reasons why Christians believe there is only one way to salvation.

Psalm 62:1 - My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from him.

If God is the creator of the Universe, then wouldn't it stand to reason that those who believe in Him would proclaim that He is the only way for ANYONE ?

The young earth argument is just the Creationist attempt to scientifically prove that God exists, based on the timeline the Bible lays out. If you go through the genealogies of the Bible, you would come to an earth age of approximately 10,000 years.

To use science to prove this is almost impossible, since there is no evidence past a certain time period. But this doesn't disprove a "young earth" any more than it proves an "old earth", because the data that is required to prove that we are living on an "old earth" is the same that would be required to prove that we are living on a "young earth", and the evidence simply isn't there.

The dating methods are flawed, and remain inconsistent, at best. I don't believe this kind of science can really be used to prove that the earth is young or old, either way.

But the bottom line is that trying to prove that God exists by proving that the earth is young is fallacy.

What it all boils down to is faith.

Can you have faith in a spiritual entity that is not tangible ?

In order to believe in Him, most humans demand tangible proof. Unfortunately, it's a vicious circle, because you cannot truly know Him until you believe.

It is a hard thing, to believe in what has been construed to be "nothing".

Anyway, tangent.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

- it's one thing to hold an opinion or belief, but it's another to profess that this opinion or belief is the absolute truth for other people, and applies to every human being...

(To reiterate)

You quote scripture. I pirate weblinks that I feel are pertinent to the discussion. This one summarizes it well:

Dear Christian:

I have heard the message of salvation many times: we are all sinners, and we can have forgiveness and eternal life if we confess and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord. I have heard that there can be no morality outside of God's laws, and that no one can be truly good without being transformed by the Spirit. I have also heard that there is no peace, love, joy, or meaning without Christ. Christians feel that unbelievers are empty slaves to carnality and selfish pride, unable to grasp the truth, and must humble themselves before God's plan.

I have heard that the bible contains the "inspired word of God" -a message of ultimate importance- and that many scholars claim to have proven its uniqueness and reliability. Some Christians say that they have verified the truth by personal experience.

This is all very interesting. I want the best for my life. If there is an eternal paradise, I would hate to miss it; and I definitely would not want to roast in a literal hell. It would be unwise to ignore something like a god, especially one who takes interest in my life. I would ask a thousand questions of an all-knowing mind.

You and I breathe the air of the same planet, and truth should be the same for us both. The basic question which should be asked about any religion is: is it TRUE? If the basic claims of theism, sin, miracles, and revelation are true, then maybe your "good news" is truly good.

However, I am an unbeliever. It's not that I particularly want to doubt; it's just that I have no choice. I have examined your claims and I am not convinced that they are true. I may even wish them to be true (or I may not) -but I am not so naive to think that something can be true or false just because I desire it. There must be some reason, beyond wishful thinking.

I'm sure you agree. You certainly doubt that thunder is caused by the anger of Zeus, or that Allah is the one true god. Like myself, you see them as myths created to explain the unknown, to give life some kind of meaning, to enhance culture, or to empower the ruling caste. They are born in human imagination, and can be explained without reference to a supernatural world. There are many gods which Christians reject. I just believe in one less god than you do. The reasons that you might give for your atheism toward Roman gods are likely the same reasons I would give for not believing in Jesus.

You and I are alike. We have minds which perceive, analyze, integrate, and react. Our only difference in this regard is that you have judged (or assumed) the premises of your religion to be factual, while I have not. You would not want to commit yourself to an idea of which you were not convinced, would you?

You are welcome to try and convince me that Christianity is true, but you should know that I am not going to "just believe" by faith. I will demand substantiation. If you say that the bible is reliable, I will ask you to prove it. I may ask why the bible contains so many errors and contradictions. If you are not familiar with the findings of critical bible scholars with diverse points of view, I will view your conclusions with suspicion.

Neither will I believe because millions of others do. Truth is not determined by vote. If it were, the earth would still be flat.

I will ask if your conclusions are logical. If you want me to consider your beliefs, then be ready to tackle questions like these:



Is there a higher judge of truth than reason?

After centuries of bitter religious fighting, why is your mind suddenly blessed with the true way of thinking?

What is morality, and is it possible without a deity?

Is the violent history of the Church consistent with a message of love?

What is a contradiction, and what would the bible have to say in order to be discrepant?

Why did your god create evil? (Isaiah 45:7)

Is there anything wrong with skepticism?

Why should inner religious experience point to anything outside of the mind?

Historians must assume natural regularity over time, so how can the bible be completely historical when it contains miracles, which violate nature?

What is a god, exactly, and why do you think one exists?

What could be said about Christianity which, if true, would make it false? If you can't answer that question, then your conclusions may be based on something other than honesty. You can't expect me to respectfully listen to you if you are closed to full, honest inquiry-if you are unwilling to allow, theoretically, that you might be wrong. I am open-minded and willing to change my position, if warranted. Can you also be fair enough to follow the facts, wherever they lead?

Many unbelievers have carefully considered these questions, perhaps even more deeply than you have. And some of us were at one time just as religious as you are now. After honest examination, I am convinced that the bible is primitive mythology, that there is no evidence for a god, that Christians are not more moral or tolerant than atheists, and that religion has caused more harm than good. Why should my conclusions be less valid than yours?

You feel that the complexity of life demands a designer; but the mind of such a creature would be at least as complex as the rest of nature, requiring a designer itself, wouldn't it? If everything needs a cause, then there can be no first cause; and if you nonetheless assert a First Cause, I will ask how you know (assume) that there can be an uncaused cause. If a deity can be thought eternal, so can the universe. God-belief does not answer any question; it just replaces a mystery with a mystery: if god made anything, who made god?

If the mind of a god is the measure for morality, then there is no way to measure if god's actions are "good." The murderous, sexist, intolerant activities of the biblical deity and the presence of chaos, ugliness and pain in the universe portray your "supreme" god as supremely immoral, by my standards. I could invent a nicer god than that, and so could you.

If you have new concrete evidence or rational arguments, then I will be glad to hear them. But please don't waste my time preaching the same old sermons I have been hearing for years.

I am quite happy with life. I have purpose and peace of mind -I prefer goodwill over repentance. I don't want to die, but I accept death as natural. I sense no need to worship, confess, or apologize to anyone. I feel no guilt, and therefore no desire to be "saved" from anything: sin is a primitive idea, and salvation is religion's offer to solve a problem of its own making.

I happily admit I am a skeptic; and I am proud of the way I think. Although humans are not perfect, I respect the human mind and I am optimistic about our abilities to continue to solve life's problems, with reason and kindness.

I don't claim to have all the answers; but if you want me to hear your message than I will ask you to listen to mine.



1987, Dan Barker/ Freedom From Religion Foundation, Madison WI

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

You quote scripture. I pirate weblinks that I feel are pertinent to the discussion. This one summarizes it well:

Dear Christian:

I have heard the message of salvation many times: we are all sinners, and we can have forgiveness and eternal life if we confess and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord. I have heard that there can be no morality outside of God's laws, and that no one can be truly good without being transformed by the Spirit. I have also heard that there is no peace, love, joy, or meaning without Christ. Christians feel that unbelievers are empty slaves to carnality and selfish pride, unable to grasp the truth, and must humble themselves before God's plan.

I have heard that the bible contains the "inspired word of God" -a message of ultimate importance- and that many scholars claim to have proven its uniqueness and reliability. Some Christians say that they have verified the truth by personal experience.

This is all very interesting. I want the best for my life. If there is an eternal paradise, I would hate to miss it; and I definitely would not want to roast in a literal hell. It would be unwise to ignore something like a god, especially one who takes interest in my life. I would ask a thousand questions of an all-knowing mind.

You and I breathe the air of the same planet, and truth should be the same for us both. The basic question which should be asked about any religion is: is it TRUE? If the basic claims of theism, sin, miracles, and revelation are true, then maybe your "good news" is truly good.

However, I am an unbeliever. It's not that I particularly want to doubt; it's just that I have no choice. I have examined your claims and I am not convinced that they are true. I may even wish them to be true (or I may not) -but I am not so naive to think that something can be true or false just because I desire it. There must be some reason, beyond wishful thinking.

I'm sure you agree. You certainly doubt that thunder is caused by the anger of Zeus, or that Allah is the one true god. Like myself, you see them as myths created to explain the unknown, to give life some kind of meaning, to enhance culture, or to empower the ruling caste. They are born in human imagination, and can be explained without reference to a supernatural world. There are many gods which Christians reject. I just believe in one less god than you do. The reasons that you might give for your atheism toward Roman gods are likely the same reasons I would give for not believing in Jesus.

You and I are alike. We have minds which perceive, analyze, integrate, and react. Our only difference in this regard is that you have judged (or assumed) the premises of your religion to be factual, while I have not. You would not want to commit yourself to an idea of which you were not convinced, would you?

You are welcome to try and convince me that Christianity is true, but you should know that I am not going to "just believe" by faith. I will demand substantiation. If you say that the bible is reliable, I will ask you to prove it. I may ask why the bible contains so many errors and contradictions. If you are not familiar with the findings of critical bible scholars with diverse points of view, I will view your conclusions with suspicion.

Neither will I believe because millions of others do. Truth is not determined by vote. If it were, the earth would still be flat.

I will ask if your conclusions are logical. If you want me to consider your beliefs, then be ready to tackle questions like these:



Is there a higher judge of truth than reason?

After centuries of bitter religious fighting, why is your mind suddenly blessed with the true way of thinking?

What is morality, and is it possible without a deity?

Is the violent history of the Church consistent with a message of love?

What is a contradiction, and what would the bible have to say in order to be discrepant?

Why did your god create evil? (Isaiah 45:7)

Is there anything wrong with skepticism?

Why should inner religious experience point to anything outside of the mind?

Historians must assume natural regularity over time, so how can the bible be completely historical when it contains miracles, which violate nature?

What is a god, exactly, and why do you think one exists?

What could be said about Christianity which, if true, would make it false? If you can't answer that question, then your conclusions may be based on something other than honesty. You can't expect me to respectfully listen to you if you are closed to full, honest inquiry-if you are unwilling to allow, theoretically, that you might be wrong. I am open-minded and willing to change my position, if warranted. Can you also be fair enough to follow the facts, wherever they lead?

Many unbelievers have carefully considered these questions, perhaps even more deeply than you have. And some of us were at one time just as religious as you are now. After honest examination, I am convinced that the bible is primitive mythology, that there is no evidence for a god, that Christians are not more moral or tolerant than atheists, and that religion has caused more harm than good. Why should my conclusions be less valid than yours?

You feel that the complexity of life demands a designer; but the mind of such a creature would be at least as complex as the rest of nature, requiring a designer itself, wouldn't it? If everything needs a cause, then there can be no first cause; and if you nonetheless assert a First Cause, I will ask how you know (assume) that there can be an uncaused cause. If a deity can be thought eternal, so can the universe. God-belief does not answer any question; it just replaces a mystery with a mystery: if god made anything, who made god?

If the mind of a god is the measure for morality, then there is no way to measure if god's actions are "good." The murderous, sexist, intolerant activities of the biblical deity and the presence of chaos, ugliness and pain in the universe portray your "supreme" god as supremely immoral, by my standards. I could invent a nicer god than that, and so could you.

If you have new concrete evidence or rational arguments, then I will be glad to hear them. But please don't waste my time preaching the same old sermons I have been hearing for years.

I am quite happy with life. I have purpose and peace of mind -I prefer goodwill over repentance. I don't want to die, but I accept death as natural. I sense no need to worship, confess, or apologize to anyone. I feel no guilt, and therefore no desire to be "saved" from anything: sin is a primitive idea, and salvation is religion's offer to solve a problem of its own making.

I happily admit I am a skeptic; and I am proud of the way I think. Although humans are not perfect, I respect the human mind and I am optimistic about our abilities to continue to solve life's problems, with reason and kindness.

I don't claim to have all the answers; but if you want me to hear your message than I will ask you to listen to mine.



1987, Dan Barker/ Freedom From Religion Foundation, Madison WI





Dear AngryFemme,

Granted, you admitted to "pirating" this article. But since it was you who brought this to the table, and not the author (Dan Barker), i will address you.

After reading this i have to admit to shame. God says that we should be ready to give an answer when unbelievers ask why we believe what we believe. I have seen many arguements in my life, and until now, i've always had an answer (even though, at times they may have been inadequate). I have even had my faith shaken to the core, by a few supposed contridictions -- i say supposed because, after studying them closer, i have found that they are NOT contridictions..and in the end, that studying strengthend my faith.

(I am giving you the credit because dan barker is not here to claim it for himself)

these are the toughest, well thought out questions that i have come across, and i am ashamed that i have not the answers. Oh sure, some of them i do, but concidered as a whole, i have been weigh and measured and found wanting.

This is not to say that, in the future, the answers will continue to evade. Faith tells me that God will supply. Maybe not to me, but to whomever He Wills.

Wishing you all of God's Love and Blessings,

John Schricker

quote:I don't claim to have all the answers; but if you want me to hear your message than I will ask you to listen to mine.

This is something we need to hear alot more of in MGCBTSOOYG... and in any discussion of this stuff

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



these are the toughest, well thought out questions that i have come across, and i am ashamed that i have not the answers. Oh sure, some of them i do, but concidered as a whole, i have been weigh and measured and found wanting.

His article was powerful, wasn't it? Don't feel ashamed that you don't have all the answers. None of us do. If everything were perfectly clear, there would be no mystery to life. Congratulate yourself on having the urge to further question things. It doesn't mean that you are doubting your faith - the faith is there, you know it is, you can feel it and it has helped you this far along in life.

quote: Wishing you all of God's Love and Blessings,

John Schricker

Back @ ya http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 09-02-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:



Dear Christian:

I have heard the message of salvation many times: we are all sinners, and we can have forgiveness and eternal life if we confess and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord. I have heard that there can be no morality outside of God's laws, and that no one can be truly good without being transformed by the Spirit. I have also heard that there is no peace, love, joy, or meaning without Christ. Christians feel that unbelievers are empty slaves to carnality and selfish pride, unable to grasp the truth, and must humble themselves before God's plan.

I have heard that the bible contains the "inspired word of God" -a message of ultimate importance- and that many scholars claim to have proven its uniqueness and reliability. Some Christians say that they have verified the truth by personal experience.

This is all very interesting. I want the best for my life. If there is an eternal paradise, I would hate to miss it; and I definitely would not want to roast in a literal hell. It would be unwise to ignore something like a god, especially one who takes interest in my life. I would ask a thousand questions of an all-knowing mind.

You and I breathe the air of the same planet, and truth should be the same for us both. The basic question which should be asked about any religion is: is it TRUE? If the basic claims of theism, sin, miracles, and revelation are true, then maybe your "good news" is truly good.

However, I am an unbeliever. It's not that I particularly want to doubt; it's just that I have no choice. I have examined your claims and I am not convinced that they are true. I may even wish them to be true (or I may not) -but I am not so naive to think that something can be true or false just because I desire it. There must be some reason, beyond wishful thinking.

I'm sure you agree. You certainly doubt that thunder is caused by the anger of Zeus, or that Allah is the one true god. Like myself, you see them as myths created to explain the unknown, to give life some kind of meaning, to enhance culture, or to empower the ruling caste. They are born in human imagination, and can be explained without reference to a supernatural world. There are many gods which Christians reject. I just believe in one less god than you do. The reasons that you might give for your atheism toward Roman gods are likely the same reasons I would give for not believing in Jesus.

You and I are alike. We have minds which perceive, analyze, integrate, and react. Our only difference in this regard is that you have judged (or assumed) the premises of your religion to be factual, while I have not. You would not want to commit yourself to an idea of which you were not convinced, would you?

You are welcome to try and convince me that Christianity is true, but you should know that I am not going to "just believe" by faith. I will demand substantiation. If you say that the bible is reliable, I will ask you to prove it. I may ask why the bible contains so many errors and contradictions. If you are not familiar with the findings of critical bible scholars with diverse points of view, I will view your conclusions with suspicion.

Neither will I believe because millions of others do. Truth is not determined by vote. If it were, the earth would still be flat.

I will ask if your conclusions are logical. If you want me to consider your beliefs, then be ready to tackle questions like these:



Is there a higher judge of truth than reason?

After centuries of bitter religious fighting, why is your mind suddenly blessed with the true way of thinking?

What is morality, and is it possible without a deity?

Is the violent history of the Church consistent with a message of love?

What is a contradiction, and what would the bible have to say in order to be discrepant?

Why did your god create evil? (Isaiah 45:7)

Is there anything wrong with skepticism?

Why should inner religious experience point to anything outside of the mind?

Historians must assume natural regularity over time, so how can the bible be completely historical when it contains miracles, which violate nature?

What is a god, exactly, and why do you think one exists?

What could be said about Christianity which, if true, would make it false? If you can't answer that question, then your conclusions may be based on something other than honesty. You can't expect me to respectfully listen to you if you are closed to full, honest inquiry-if you are unwilling to allow, theoretically, that you might be wrong. I am open-minded and willing to change my position, if warranted. Can you also be fair enough to follow the facts, wherever they lead?

Many unbelievers have carefully considered these questions, perhaps even more deeply than you have. And some of us were at one time just as religious as you are now. After honest examination, I am convinced that the bible is primitive mythology, that there is no evidence for a god, that Christians are not more moral or tolerant than atheists, and that religion has caused more harm than good. Why should my conclusions be less valid than yours?

You feel that the complexity of life demands a designer; but the mind of such a creature would be at least as complex as the rest of nature, requiring a designer itself, wouldn't it? If everything needs a cause, then there can be no first cause; and if you nonetheless assert a First Cause, I will ask how you know (assume) that there can be an uncaused cause. If a deity can be thought eternal, so can the universe. God-belief does not answer any question; it just replaces a mystery with a mystery: if god made anything, who made god?

If the mind of a god is the measure for morality, then there is no way to measure if god's actions are "good." The murderous, sexist, intolerant activities of the biblical deity and the presence of chaos, ugliness and pain in the universe portray your "supreme" god as supremely immoral, by my standards. I could invent a nicer god than that, and so could you.

If you have new concrete evidence or rational arguments, then I will be glad to hear them. But please don't waste my time preaching the same old sermons I have been hearing for years.

I am quite happy with life. I have purpose and peace of mind -I prefer goodwill over repentance. I don't want to die, but I accept death as natural. I sense no need to worship, confess, or apologize to anyone. I feel no guilt, and therefore no desire to be "saved" from anything: sin is a primitive idea, and salvation is religion's offer to solve a problem of its own making.

I happily admit I am a skeptic; and I am proud of the way I think. Although humans are not perfect, I respect the human mind and I am optimistic about our abilities to continue to solve life's problems, with reason and kindness.

I don't claim to have all the answers; but if you want me to hear your message than I will ask you to listen to mine.



1987, Dan Barker/ Freedom From Religion Foundation, Madison WI



Owned!

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

His article was powerful, wasn't it? Don't feel ashamed that you don't have all the answers. None of us do. If everything were perfectly clear, there would be no mystery to life. Congratulate yourself on having the urge to further question things. It doesn't mean that you are doubting your faith - the faith is there, you know it is, you can feel it and it has helped you this far along in life.

Actually I was not doubting my faith, and it's not the fact that i do not have all the answers that makes me feel ashamed. I was refering to:

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:

In the passage above, fear means reverence and respect. But from the normal, everyday meaning of fear: I fear that some (younger) members of TOTSE, may read this and think, "Gee, because that stumped a bible thumper, I'm going to have to memorize this so i can win arguements". I fear this because they actually would be stunting their (possible) spiritual growth.

I did debate whether i should post this (my shame), and came to the conclusion that honesty and openness were more important than fear.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Owned!



Nope, not owned. Just dont have even close to good answers for this person...yet.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I fear that some (younger) members of TOTSE, may read this and think, "Gee, because that stumped a bible thumper, I'm going to have to memorize this so i can win arguements". I fear this because they actually would be stunting their (possible) spiritual growth.

I did debate whether i should post this (my shame), and came to the conclusion that honesty and openness were more important than fear.

Younger totse members NEED to read this kind of goodwill debate. If they read so far into this thread that they actually came across your reaction to the *Dear Christian* post, then odds are they are leaving their minds wide open to either side.

I think Christians would get their viewpoints across alot better to younger people they are hoping to infect with their memes if they would quote less scripture and give more colorful examples of living by way of Christianity. I think young people need to explore both sides of the coin and then ultimately decide for themselves what they believe in.

Your shame is totally unnecessary, in my feeble opinion. If I were a young, impressionable teenager, it would seem much more savory to realize that even people of The Faith are allowed to question themselves at times and still not break free from their beliefs.