I'm confused as fuck about the story of satan, so can somebody please clarify for me? This is my understanding:

God makes this angel Lucifer, hes a beutiful lookin dude, plays harps n shit, and one day he goes to god and says "I want a turn, make me a God." Then God says "Fuck you man", so Satan gets angels to rebell and it doesnt work, so he tries to get humans to rebell.

But ive heard alot of other things, like God created Lucifer to tempt people, and i don't know how this whole thing about him getting sent to hell thing works out. Can anybody help or post links (I know somebodies going to tell me to read the bible, but fuck thats a long book and its pretty confusing and doesnt use modern language, bits and pieces is fine tho like ezekiel)

Pick up a bible.

Read it.

That's the real story.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Pick up a bible.

Read it.

That's the real story.

you're a fuckin idiot. Did he not just say that he doesn't want to read the Bible cause it's confusing? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....

See I would love to read the bible, but time is an issue not to mention what parts to read, and alot of it is confusing as hell, like Mat 10:30-36, if someone didn't know he was quoting micah one would be really confused. So I'm just asking for the straight story.

EDIT: Not to mention all the versions there are of it...

[This message has been edited by mixedbloods (edited 09-01-2004).]

You are partially right.

The way I understand it is, Lucifer did rebel out of pride so God expelled him from heaven. God created Lucifer as the most beautiful angel in charge on legions of angels, Lucifer changed himself into satan because he sin against God.

quote:Originally posted by Mr Shit:

you're a fuckin idiot. Did he not just say that he doesn't want to read the Bible cause it's confusing? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....

He's right. If you are confused, ASK GOD TO REVEAL THE TRUTH TO YOU !

It is a spiritual book, and can only be understood when wearing "spiritual glasses", per se.

If you aren't seeking God's assistance when reading His book, you aren't going to understand ONE SINGLE LETTER.

It doesn't make Tribe an idiot to tell someone the obvious.

And I don't see YOU giving any suggestions. Your name is fitting.

1 John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (KJV)

The "turning" of Satan happened prior to Adam & Eve eating the fruit, since Satan tempts them against God. The Bible calls him the first sinner (1 John 3:8), so in the sense of a "moral fall," Satan morally fell prior to the temptation of Eve.

Concerning a "geographical fall," the issue is much more complicated. After Adam & Eve's fall, Satan still had access to God's throne in heaven. This is seen in his appearances before God with the other angels (see Job 1:6,12; 2:1,7). It is clear that Satan has no authority in heaven, but he can appear there and accuse the brethren (cf. Revelation 12:10). Although Satan doesn't have authority in heaven, he does have authority in the earth (Matthew 4:8-9; Ephesians 2:2; 6:12; 1 John 5:19).



JOB 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (NIV)

JOB 1:12 - The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (NIV)

REVELATION 12:10 - Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

MATTHEW 4:8-9 - 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." (NIV, speaking to Jesus)

The term "falling from heaven" is a Near Eastern way of saying that someone is suffering defeat. The term is used in non-biblical literature to describe the fall of gods from power (For example: Hurrite Pantheon; Hittites; Hittite & Hurrian Mythology; Hindu Myths). It's like our term "falling from grace." We don't mean an actual change of geographic position, rather a change of power or relationship.

All of the passages that mention a fall of Satan are somewhat symbolic, so it is hard to know exactly how to take them. The three passages are:

Revelation 12:7-13 - And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Luke 10:17-24 - The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." 21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. 22 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." 23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

Ezekiel 28:11-19 - The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, [2] turquoise and beryl.

Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

(all taken from the NIV)

Concerning the Revelation passage, it would seem that the woman spoken of is "the people of God," i.e. true believing Israel. She gives birth to the Messiah. It is clear that the child is the Messiah, because only Jesus is the one who is said to "rule the nations with a rod of iron" (Psalm 2:9; Revelation 2:27; 19:15).

I guess my own tendency IS to take the passage as chronological, but to take the "losing their place in heaven" (verse 8) as more symbolic of some sort of defeat, rather than an "actual change of domicile." So when did Satan suffer this defeat? This war in heaven appears to happen sometime after (or because of) Jesus' ascension to the Father (verse 5). I don't think we can derive anything more certain from it than that.

This is all the information we are given in regards to the expulsion of Lucifer from Heaven.

Hope this helps. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Oh, and Satan does not currently reside in Hell. Some people think that Satan lives in hell, but hell is where Satan and the wicked will be sent at the last judgment. Satan now dwells on earth (Job 1:7). At the Second Coming of Christ, he will be bound for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). After the thousand years, he will be set free for a short time and will go out to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:7-9). The devil’s final end will be in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), which was prepared by God for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

JOB 1:7 - The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

REVELATION 20:1-3 - And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

REVELATION 20:7-10 - 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

MATTHEW 25:41 - 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

1 John 3:8 John says that whoever sins is "of the devil." But if what he said in 1:8, 10 is true, then everyone is "of the devil."

Job 2:3-7 God and Satan play a little game with Job. God allows Satan to torment Job, just to see how he will react.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon." So even in heaven, one can't be safe from war or dragons.

Matthew 4:6, 10 The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13.

God Being Tempted: skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/tempt_god.html

1 John 5:16 John says "there is a sin unto death." It's a shame he doesn't tell us what it is.

1 John 5:18 Many Bible verses (2 Chr.6:36, Pr.20:9, Ec.7:10, 1 Jn.1:8, 10) claim that everyone is a sinner, but John says that some people (Christians) never sin.

1 John 5:19 Christians are "of God;" everyone else is wicked.



Matthew 5:22 Jesus says that "Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Yet he often calls his critics and disciples fools. Paul is also in danger of going to hell since he liked to call people fools.

Who are we to serve?

skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/serve.html

Revelation 12:4 The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. Wow, that's quite a swipe! But to the author of Revelations, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky.

Revelation 12:6, 14 Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus returned in 1914. This belief is derived from these verses that link "a time, times, and a half a time" with 1260 days.

Luke 10:17-19 The disciples are thrilled that "even the devils are subject" to them. To this Jesus replies, "I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions ... and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Luke 10:21 Jesus thanks God that only the ignorant and foolish will listen to him.



Ezekiel 28:10 Watch out or God will make you "die the deaths of the uncircumcised," which is, no doubt, a most unpleasant death.

Ezekiel 28:19 Once more Ezekiel repeats the false prophecy of the complete destruction of Tyrus and its perpetual desolation.

Ezekiel 28:22-23 God says that Zidon will know that he is the Lord when he sends "pestilence and blood into her streets."

Revelation 2:23 Jesus says he will kill the children of Jezebel. (I suppose that includes all nonchristian children.)

Revelation 2:23 Jesus says he "will give unto every one of you according to your works," which is, of course, contrary to the teaching of Paul (Rom.4:5-6, Gal.2:16, Eph.2:8-9).

Revelation 3:1 God has seven spirits. (Counting the Holy Spirit?)

Revelation 2:26-27 Those who obey God/Jesus until the end will rule everyone else with an iron rod. They'll even get to smash the others into smithereens.

Revelation 19:13-15 Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 19:17-18 An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon dead human bodies, or as the angel calls it "the supper of the great God."

Just wanted to give the counter points :P

All of the above was taken from skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html



Lucifer is a matter of how you look at him within the bible; there are religions based on the idea that Lucifer was cast out from heaven, but that he is still doing God's will and that he represents Wisdom, Freedom and afew characteristics I have forgotten.(Luciferianism)

Some sects of the jewish religion believe the same as the above.

[This message has been edited by Gyhth (edited 09-02-2004).]

Simplified Version:

Satan rebelled because he was sick of serving god... so he said "Fuck you, you pompous, overzealous dictator..."

Then god abused his power and sent satan down to hell...

So, God was like Stalin, only he didn't kill lots of people(well... he did if you count the crusades).

Satan was the first rebel... My Hero(its too bad that I don't believe in him).

lol...

quote:Originally posted by Tadgh:

Simplified Version:

Satan rebelled because he was sick of serving god... so he said "Fuck you, you pompous, overzealous dictator..."

Then god abused his power and sent satan down to hell...

So, God was like Stalin, only he didn't kill lots of people(well... he did if you count the crusades).

Satan was the first rebel... My Hero(its too bad that I don't believe in him).

lol...



Actually if you read the bible, God killed plenty of people on his own.

He didn't need pawns like the catholic church.

Disclaimer: For the first time in a while I'm intending to do an apologetic... before I start i'd like to say that i consider things like SAB to be, in some ways, a constructive thing. I also consider there to be problems with the bible, and as such, i don't feel that there is need to justify/explain/harmonize everything that happens in order for it to fit "the way I've been taught that it should".

However, like most sources when it comes to this stuff, on both sides of the argument, there is a tendency to fudge stuff so as to use it as means of "proof-texting". This happens when fundamentalists want to justify homophobia, racism etc. or when strong atheists want to make the bible/ christianity appear to be entirely ridiculous.

The crux of the problem is poor hermenuetics, were both sides will lift a text from it's context (textual, social, physical, political etc). I can understand SAB doing this to an extent, as this is the same approach to the bible that those they are opposing take. However that does not make it a fruitful way for anyone how is genuinely interested (beyond proving a point) to understand the text.

So for a little perspective on SAB's claims:



quote:Originally posted by Gyhth:

1 John 3:8 John says that whoever sins is "of the devil." But if what he said in 1:8, 10 is true, then everyone is "of the devil."

1 John 5:16 John says "there is a sin unto death." It's a shame he doesn't tell us what it is.

1 John 5:18 Many Bible verses (2 Chr.6:36, Pr.20:9, Ec.7:10, 1 Jn.1:8, 10) claim that everyone is a sinner, but John says that some people (Christians) never sin.

1 John 5:19 Christians are "of God;" everyone else is wicked.



Some of those claims are fairly accurate, however when understood as stand-alone concepts they make very little sense. http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/1jo/harris/123john-15.htm



quote:

Job 2:3-7 God and Satan play a little game with Job. God allows Satan to torment Job, just to see how he will react.



Job is IMO, one of the most important book sof the bible, and gives us a great insight into the divine nature of the hebrew God. Anyway... if you read Job you can easily see that it is more than a game. What happens in the first few chapters is a direct attack on the relationship of God and man. If satan can prove that people will "be righteous" only because it's a gravy train (i.e. righteousness only out of self-seeking), then satan succeds in alienating God and man:

"It is the adversary's ultimate challenge. For if the godliness of the righteous man in whom God delights can be shown to be a terrible sin, than a chasm of alienation stands between them that cannot be bridged. Then even redemption is unthinkable, for the godliest of men will be shown to be the most ungodly. God's whole enterprise in creation and redemption will be shown to be radically flawed, and God can only sweep it all away in awful judgement." - NIV Theme and Message notes on Job

quote:

Revelation 12:7 "And there was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon." So even in heaven, one can't be safe from war or dragons.

Revelation 12:4 The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. Wow, that's quite a swipe! But to the author of Revelations, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky.

Revelation 12:6, 14 Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus returned in 1914. This belief is derived from these verses that link "a time, times, and a half a time" with 1260 days.

Revelation 2:23 Jesus says he will kill the children of Jezebel. (I suppose that includes all nonchristian children.)

Revelation 2:23 Jesus says he "will give unto every one of you according to your works," which is, of course, contrary to the teaching of Paul (Rom.4:5-6, Gal.2:16, Eph.2:8-9).

Revelation 3:1 God has seven spirits. (Counting the Holy Spirit?)

Revelation 2:26-27 Those who obey God/Jesus until the end will rule everyone else with an iron rod. They'll even get to smash the others into smithereens.

Revelation 19:13-15 Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 19:17-18 An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon dead human bodies, or as the angel calls it "the supper of the great God."



Revelation is a bucket of jibberish to the western mind (esp. mine)... anyhoo... revelation is written in a distinctive style of writing (apocryphal) which, at the time, had traditionally been used as means of sociopolitical commentary. As such it is full of sybolism and meteophors. What they mean? well i dunno, there are some quite good resources for understanding the meaning it may have had to first century readers, whom it was written for. That's not to deny the eschatological claims that it makes though.

As for Jeezbel... "Jezebel is the spiritual mother of all who pursue antinomian (libertine) doctrines"... who then are her 'children'. In response to the authors argument though.. if you want to telescope it far enough it is God that 'kills' everyone. Whether they be Mother Teresa or Idi Armin.

Jesus giving to everyone according to what they have done was *not* a new concept in revalation, and is a strong theme throught the New Testament. The concept generally meshes well with Paul's teaching, and the link between grace, faith and deeds is well established.

quote:

Matthew 4:6, 10 The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13.



So? Again, it's probably important to remember the absense of tape recorders in first century palestine. Its possible that any of the exchange was recorded entirley verbatim.

quote:

Matthew 5:22 Jesus says that "Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Yet he often calls his critics and disciples fools. Paul is also in danger of going to hell since he liked to call people fools.



Fair enough. It's also interesting to note that Paul also considered himself a fool.

quote:

Luke 10:17-19 The disciples are thrilled that "even the devils are subject" to them. To this Jesus replies, "I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions ... and nothing shall by any means hurt you."



"I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."- Luke 10:17-20

Hmmm... personally, if i had lived my life in fear of demons and spirits my whole life, to have authority over them would be quite liberating. This has been very much the experience of many indigineous people here in Australia (particularly in the Torres strait.. however missionaries have a very bad history in OZ) of when met with the gospel.

quote:

Luke 10:21 Jesus thanks God that only the ignorant and foolish will listen to him.



"..because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.."

I also think that it is cool that God would choose to reveal his grace and power to those who don't make claims on it (like the religious right did then and do now). I dare say that the "wise and learned" that Jesus speaks of were very much the religious scholars and officals of his day.

quote:

Ezekiel 28:10 Watch out or God will make you "die the deaths of the uncircumcised," which is, no doubt, a most unpleasant death.

Ezekiel 28:19 Once more Ezekiel repeats the false prophecy of the complete destruction of Tyrus and its perpetual desolation.

Ezekiel 28:22-23 God says that Zidon will know that he is the Lord when he sends "pestilence and blood into her streets."



The prophecies about Tyre are... interesting... there is evidence that goes both ways... however it is true that there is a city where Tyre was (i think). As to God smiting people... theres heaps better examples than those.



>>>>> Anyway this has been my longest post for quite awhile. Gyhth- there wasn't exactly a cohesive argument throughout your post... taking a shotgun approach isn't exactly the best way to get a point across, especially when its just quotes from a website (lol... where i have seen that before...???). Anyhoo, thats enough from me.

quote:



I don't claim to have all the answers; but if you want me to hear your message than I will ask you to listen to mine.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

He's right. If you are confused, ASK GOD TO REVEAL THE TRUTH TO YOU !

It is a spiritual book, and can only be understood when wearing "spiritual glasses", per se.

If you aren't seeking God's assistance when reading His book, you aren't going to understand ONE SINGLE LETTER.

It doesn't make Tribe an idiot to tell someone the obvious.

And I don't see YOU giving any suggestions. Your name is fitting.

How exactly does one go about doing this? I guess I just can't get past logic and reason.

I can't tell whether or not you are asking honestly (much is lost in translation over the internet), but I have to tell you that you have never been more accurate.

This is the stumbling block for all mankind, not just you..

I think it is a common misconception that I am a mindless sheep, that was simply looking for something to cling to, and God looked good to me the day I have my life to Him. *lol*

However, I am a cynical person by nature, and extremely analytical. To the point of neurosis, actually. I refuse to take meds for it, because this is the way God intended me to be...for what reason, I don't know. *shrugs*

Anyway, my point is, it wasn't easy for me to swallow this pill called Christianity. I didn't want to try and see things from a different perspective. Especially as a person afflicted with rage, a God of love just turned my stomach.

The moment I began to understand God was the moment I stopped trying to figure Him out with logic.

He is not logical, He is spiritual. He is not physically provable, because He is not tangible.

So, how does one overcome such impossible obstacles ?

There is a certain release of self that occurs. To say, "There is a God, and He created me." was such an enlightening moment. And I don't mean logically.

It is such a hard thing to explain, experience is.

But I will leave you with this:

If you truly want to accomplish this, then you MUST make yourself open to the possibility.

Leave logic behind (it is SO against our nature !), and PRAY. Earnestly, honestly...and trust, as a child does.

If you can accomplish that, God will reveal Himself to you in ways you could never have imagined possible.

I know this sounds sentimental, and dramatic, but God is an awesome God, and there really is no other way to describe it.

And hey, look at it this way...if nothing happens, then you lost nothing.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-03-2004).]

"I can't tell whether or not you are asking "honestly (much is lost in translation over the internet), but I have to tell you that you have never been more accurate".

I know I'm hard to read, as I am such a bastard.( seriously, I harbor no ill will towards you.) I would love to believe, as it would be so much easier, but I cannot. Mind you, I am not saying I'm atheist, I'm just saying that I don't believe in any God that I've heard of. I do however believe in an ultimate reality. Existence is complicated, no?