Why is it that people are they way they are when it comes to their beliefs? Why do people so readily accept the notion of a supreme being? This is something I've been wondering about. I've asked my father what he thinks, and he says while it's foolish to simply say a person "knows" what "it" is (i.e. God), there is indeed something out there. I quote "we will never fully understand the workings of life and the universe, but there has to be something out there, as the deepest of human emotions (love) has to come from something." Can't love be considered the most important defineing aspect of humans? It seems to me something that has come out our evolved intelligence. As we have become the most intelligent lifeforms on this planet, we have evolved the virtues of "love". Sure, it seems like a deep-seeded part of us, the need to grow as a species through love. Im not talking about sex here, but pure love. Does pure love really exisit? ....I dunno where im going with this.... But it does seem like there is something out there, as there are things that have occured, and will occur, that seem to imply this. Sure, our understanding of the universe has been greatly increased within the past 200 years, but there will always be things like what happens when we die that we will never understand. We are afraid to die. It seems like a fear, that people must have a purpose, there most be a purpose to life. If life is truley a gift (which , regardless of whether or not there is a divine a force behind life, one must consider it to be a gift since life is such an unlikey event in the universe), than isn't the purpose of life to make the most of it, and to continue it? I've only been alive for 18 years, and yet I have to wonder about the implacations of it. I accept that I don't know how everything is in the world, but im not so fast to label what a don't understand as a beleif in something like relegion. Yes, we dont understand what is out there, maybe it can be explained through equations, maybe it can be explained through divine right. But I don't understand how people, intelligent friends that I know, are so able to label this as "God", in the sense of the word. Perhaps all this "God" truley is is what we will never fully understand. Whatever the case, for know ( and perhaps this is because im an angsty teenager, I dunno) I reamain agnostic - not atheist, not Christian. It seems like we will never really know. Im sorry for the long rant, but what do you think? Do you have a belief that you stand by no matter what? why......?

Some see love as a very deep human emotion, while others see it as chemical reactions in the brain to further our species. It's a matter of opinion.

"isn't the purpose of life to make the most of it, and to continue it? "

For some, yes. Others are content with sitting back and watching life go by, or simply ending it when they get bored or depressed. In my opinion, this is what separates us from other life forms : choice, free will. We may choose to ignore our instincts.

"But I don't understand how people, intelligent friends that I know, are so able to label this as 'God'"

They have made a choice. They have faith in their beliefs, and for them, that is all that they need. You need to try to see things from their perspective, without allowing your own uncertainty to cloud the view.

Sorry for not touching on every topic that you have presented... reading that gets a little messy. Paragraphs, man, paragraphs!

thats the thing, I try to see it from there perspective. I asked my good friend why he has such a faith for his beleifs, and what I got for an answer was "Cause it's the truth man". I dunno, I try to keep an open mind about what people believe, but surely you can look at it as "I simply don't know"...right...Or perhaps I simply can't make a conclusive decesion on this touchy subject

look at it logically. first, an analogy:

suppose that a complete stranger comes up to you and says, "i have a $100 million dollar lottery ticket in my right pocket. if you truly believe me, i will share a few million with you. if you do not, i will shoot you with the gun in my left pocket."

now, without further information, you cannot logically choose to TRULY believe him. belief does not require conclusive evidence, but it does require persuasive evidence. you cannot willingly choose to believe a thing without a reasonable hope of its possibility; conversely, you cannot choose to believe the same thing in the presence of a reasonable doubt. (note: emphasis on 'reasonable'.)

so in the scenario above, what you CAN do is give him the benefit of the doubt out of fear of the consequences, and reasonably hope that he can not tell the difference between true belief and feigned belief. or you can quickly break his nose for him, pick his pockets, and run. i know what i'd at least try to do.

it is the same thing with sanctimonious appeals to worship whichever supposedly divine entity, or face his wrath. such a method effectively slanders the truly divine spiritual experiences in life by misrepresenting them as nothing more than the future consequences to your present actions. if you start from the assumption that the divine is a futuristic entity divorced from life in the present, you will never walk in heaven. the only constant is the eternal momentum of the present; if god exists, this is where He will be found.

if you do not believe, and yet neither can you defend yourself psychologically from the fear of hellfire, it is best to fake adherence to whichever religious dogma scares you most. however, if you won't stand to be eternally threatened with eternal damnation, then simply realize that this 'hell' is the very same irrational fear you experience at its mention. if this is understood, then your fear will be replaced with a pure and sober understanding, and your reaction will be appropriate and just.

even if you do not know the specific truth behind an instance of this sort of spiritual blackmail, it does not mean that you must play. you do not have to live in fear. it IS ok to not know. in fact, it is the sign of a healthy mind to be able to admit ignorance, especially when the alternative is to feign knowledge on the basis of weak assumptions. you can not question what you already have convinced yourself that you know.

if God is Truth, you can not arrive at Him by simply believing that you know the Truth. you must truly know.

in summation, to say that YOU MUST BELIEVE is contradictory. the word 'MUST' blatantly implies certainty, whereas to 'BELIEVE' inherently implies uncertainty. belief can only be considered a reasonable conviction, not an absolute certainty, so no one MUST believe any god damned thing.

edit: it is the job of the claimant (if they feel so inclined) to persuade others of their personal beliefs; but to try and compel others to believe even more strongly than they do themselves is disingenuous.

[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 09-03-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

look at it logically. first, an analogy:

suppose that a complete stranger comes up to you and says, "i have a $100 million dollar lottery ticket in my right pocket. if you truly believe me, i will share a few million with you. if you do not, i will shoot you with the gun in my left pocket."

now, without further information, you cannot logically choose to TRULY believe him. belief does not require conclusive evidence, but it does require persuasive evidence. you cannot willingly choose to believe a thing without a reasonable hope of its possibility; conversely, you cannot choose to believe the same thing in the presence of a reasonable doubt. (note: emphasis on 'reasonable'.)

so in the scenario above, what you CAN do is give him the benefit of the doubt out of fear of the consequences, and reasonably hope that he can not tell the difference between true belief and feigned belief. or you can quickly break his nose for him, pick his pockets, and run. i know what i'd at least try to do.

it is the same thing with sanctimonious appeals to worship whichever supposedly divine entity, or face his wrath. such a method effectively slanders the truly divine spiritual experiences in life by misrepresenting them as nothing more than the future consequences to your present actions. if you start from the assumption that the divine is a futuristic entity divorced from life in the present, you will never walk in heaven. the only constant is the eternal momentum of the present; if god exists, this is where He will be found.

if you do not believe, and yet neither can you defend yourself psychologically from the fear of hellfire, it is best to fake adherence to whichever religious dogma scares you most. however, if you won't stand to be eternally threatened with eternal damnation, then simply realize that this 'hell' is the very same irrational fear you experience at its mention. if this is understood, then your fear will be replaced with a pure and sober understanding, and your reaction will be appropriate and just.

even if you do not know the specific truth behind an instance of this sort of spiritual blackmail, it does not mean that you must play. you do not have to live in fear. it IS ok to not know. in fact, it is the sign of a healthy mind to be able to admit ignorance, especially when the alternative is to feign knowledge on the basis of weak assumptions. you can not question what you already have convinced yourself that you know.

if God is Truth, you can not arrive at Him by simply believing that you know the Truth. you must truly know.

in summation, to say that YOU MUST BELIEVE is contradictory. the word 'MUST' blatantly implies certainty, whereas to 'BELIEVE' inherently implies uncertainty. belief can only be considered a reasonable conviction, not an absolute certainty, so no one MUST believe any god damned thing.

edit: it is the job of the claimant (if they feel so inclined) to persuade others of their personal beliefs; but to try and compel others to believe even more strongly than they do themselves is disingenuous.

[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 09-03-2004).]



Maybe you are right, to an extent, but I for one knew of God's love before i knew of the punishment of Hell.

^sure. however, i can't speak for you, but i experienced divine love before i knew of God.