I wrote this as a reply to another thread, but thought that it was worth making it a thread of it's own.

Tell me if I'm wrong about anything, but I'm pretty confident I'm right. (However I have been up for the last two days and nights straight, surviving on little more than one chicken taco, booze, and crystal methamphetamine. So, I'm a tad wobbly.):

---------------------------------------------

I'll try to answer these one by one:

"Do jewish people think they are the "chosen ones" and believe in zionism?"

- Not all of them. There are many different sects of judaism. One even believes in Jesus as christ.

"Do jewish people have a nationalistic pride that doesn't except nor will ever except a different nation as a peoples?"

- No. What's going on in Ysrael right now has nothing to do with them being jewish. It happens all the time all over the place. I grew up in a latino neighborhood and I remember all these african american families started moving in and the latinos "ran them out of town" so to speak, just because they thought they were making their neighborhood crummy. They weren't making it crummy. It was already crummy. But, it was easy to blame it on them. It's the same thing out there. The muslims are blaming the jews for their poor quality of life and the jews think the muslims are bringing their quality of life down.

That's a super simplified explanation, but that's the jest.

Also, though some sects of judaism teach that jews being the chosen people means they are closer to god, most sects of judaism teach that we are chosen to bare the cross of mankind.

"Jesus preached against these ideas and they killed him for it."

- Also, "the jews" didn't kill Jesus. (First of all, that's like saying "the catholics" killed the British in the War Of The Roses just because Joan of Arc was a war leader and she was a catholic. Probably many of the other members of the army were also catholic, but more than likely some of them didn't really have any particular convictions one way or the other.) The Romans initially killed Jesus. Of course, there were jews around, and at the time the king of the jews was an infamously ruthless king: King Harrah, who had killed several of his own wives and children, and who had it out for Jesus ever since people started calling Jesus the King Of The Jews. So, after Jesus made a public disturbance on Roman soil, he was arrested by the Romans, escorted back to his land but was refused stay by Kind Harrah and his henchmen, who gave the Roman soldiers to go-ahead to crucify him.

So, now you know.

"Nationalism of jewish people is very evident and they have even created their own country with it and it seams they are on the same track here and in pretty much every other country."

- What you're thinking of is Zionist Judaism. Zionist Judaism is a sect of fanatic Judaism that teaches that the jews should own, colonize, and take political rule of "Zion". However, most jews don't agree with this, because (this is a mite funny and will sound non sequitor, but it fits, trust me):

By fighting over political standing both the jews and the muslims are in direct opposition with their own doctrines. It clearly states in the Torah that no jew may own land or take political standing other than the messiah and it clearly states in the Quran that no muslim may own land or take political standing other than mohammed.

Why do you think jews wandered for so many hundreds of years without a country? Palestine, and that area, was the closest thing forever that the jews had to their own land until the state of Ysrael was purchased by the UN for the displaced jews after the Holocaust as a global relief effort. So, the Palestinians sold the land to the UN and the UN sent all the displaced jews there. Most of which had been living in Europe and were very westernized.

They were given a plot of crap ass land and Zionism was born. Zionism taught that it was okay to be in opposition with the doctrine and many of the people at the forefront of the Ysrael land development were Zionists. They errigated(sp) it, made it usefull and then all of a sudden the Palestinians wanted to move back. So, a lot of Palestinians moved to Ysrael (since it had - at one time - been their land, and it was more fruitfull than theirs was now). The jews, themselves, had never enstated any foriegn policy. All of that was still controlled by the UN. They only justified the fact that they owned a land and had taken polical standing by the fact that it was bought for them, they'd just endured the Holocaust, and what the heck the muslims have been doing it for thousands of years and no ones saying anything to them about it.

But, then the Palestinians started saying they wanted to take back polical power in Ysrael and make it Palenstine again, mostly because the way that westernized jewish way of life clashed with their own more traditional middle eastern way of life.

The Jews said no and the Palestinians decided to just take the land back.

So far, it hasn't worked.

But, the bottom line of all that is that most jews feel it's great that Ysrael exists, because it's been a long time and they've been through so much bullshit to get where they are, but they don't feel it's worth fighting over because it's opposition with their doctrine. In other words, they'd like to keep it, but they know they wouldn't be good jews by fighting for it.

"the occupation of jewish peoples resulting in the enslavemnet of the masses,"

- Too late. You're already occupied by jews, and you're already enslaved. Not by jews, but you're a slave to your white-washed christian government instead. Does that make you feel more comfortable?

I hope that cleared some stuff up.

Cheers,

Lost

That explains just about everything. One little suggestion, if I may - Israel != Ysrael http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

History lesson:

A country of southwest Asia on the eastern Mediterranean Sea. It was established in 1948 following the British withdrawal from Palestine, which had been divided by recommendation of the United Nations into Jewish and Arab states. Discord with neighboring Arab countries that had rejected the UN partition led to numerous wars, notably in 1948-1949, 1956-1957, 1967, and 1973. In the Six-Day War of 1967 Israel occupied the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jerusalem's Old City, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula. The Golan Heights and Jerusalem were later annexed, and the Sinai was returned to Egypt in 1982. A 1993 Israeli-Palestinian accord granted limited Palestinian autonomy in the Gaza Strip, and a similar accord calling for Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank was signed in 1994. Jerusalem is the capital and Tel Aviv-Yafo the largest city. Population: 5,383,000.

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Israel

[This message has been edited by Gyhth (edited 09-06-2004).]

Nice addendum. *wink*

Cheers,

Lost

Also Jewish chicks are hot.

I think your on point LostCause.

A diamond in the rough of our little forum here.

Thanks Lost, that was good.

quote: It clearly states in the Torah that no jew may own land or take political standing

Never knew that... food for thought.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

It clearly states in the Torah that no Jew may own land or take political standing.

I don't think that's true. Jews are allowed to own land and I've never heard of the stuff about politics. Have you got a quote?

Lev 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

God is saying that the Jew's land will be destroyed so therefore Jews must be able to own land.

^mmm i dunno, in that context the Jews had been *given* that land to inhabit by God.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

^mmm i dunno, in that context the Jews had been *given* that land to inhabit by God.

Yes quite. Obviously owning land is absurd. How can one own land? I meant that they were in possession of the land because God gave it to them.

It's weird to think the land my house was built on was probably inhabited by some dinosaur 60 million years ago so it really isn't or wasn't ever my land.

Good read Lost, and I would just like to note that God Damn have I missed this place this summer.

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

Yes quite. Obviously owning land is absurd. How can one own land? I meant that they were in possession of the land because God gave it to them.

It's weird to think the land my house was built on was probably inhabited by some dinosaur 60 million years ago so it really isn't or wasn't ever my land.

That doesn't look so obvious to me.

Your body is (still is) inhabited by millions or billions of all kinds of bacteria and other bugs. Does that mean it isn't your body ?



[This message has been edited by Uncus (edited 09-07-2004).]

No, it's God's body. *lol*

Just teasin'. It IS, but I am not going to go there...off topic. *smiles*

Deuteronomy 34:1-4 Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land-from Gilead to Dan, 2 all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, 3 the Negev and the whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar. 4 Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it."

It is clear that God designated the land of Israel for the Jews.

But that's not the whole story.

"If you are not careful to do all the words of this law...you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it," warns Moses in Deuteronomy 28. "And the LORD will scatter you among all the peoples, from one end of the earth to the other. …"

God was making covenant with Israel. Covenants are conditional. This is why they come with the promise of blessings and the warning of curses. If God's people faithfully obey his commands, they prosper. If they don't, God lowers the boom.

"Before the Almighty gave us the Holy Land 3260 years ago, He made these conditions: If we abide by the Torah, it is ours, if not, we will be expelled," explains Orthodox Rabbi E. Schwartz of Neturei Karta (http://www.nkusa.org/).

As shown in the scripture above, we know that God's gift of the land to Abraham and his decedents was not unconditional. God threw them off the land a few times – not that God broke the promise. God never breaks a promise, but man certainly does renege on his end of the bargain. When that happens, hello Assyrians, hello Babylonians, hello Rome.

Right here is where dispensationalists like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye point to Ezekiel 37 and the promise of a restored Israel, which they say happened in 1948 with the founding of the modern-day nation Israel: Sure the Jews were scattered by the Romans, but they've returned. They're back in the land. This is why most Christians believe we are living in the "End Times".

Maybe. But we should ask ourselves something: If the Israelites were driven from the land by God for not keeping covenant with Him, why are they back on the land now and still not keeping covenant with Him?

This is a perennial problem among Orthodox Jews. For them, a political savior ignores the genuine cause of the exile and, thus, its genuine solution. God sent the Israelites eviction papers in the form of prophetic warnings about their sins and calls to repentance (e.g., Ezekiel and Jeremiah). Those papers aren't void until repentance comes.

"Only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human intervention, redeem us from exile," says Schwartz, who quickly moves to condemn Zionism as the brainchild of atheists and denial of the covenantal understanding of the Diaspora.

Many Christians are likewise clueless these days about the concept of a "covenant". Our ideas of "New Testament Christianity" have stripped our understanding of the vital doctrines of the Old Testament. As such, many Christians simply assume that modern-day Israel, despite its continued unbelief, is the restored Israel.

This frequently leads Christians to uncritically accept whatever happens in the Holy Land by Israelis as OK, regardless of whether in particular instances Israel might be wildly in the wrong. By muddling our theology and foreign policy this way we approve of injustices as if they were permitted by heavenly warrant. Either that or we refuse to consider any evidence against Israeli actions as going against God himself.

This is not an adequate response to the Jewish-Palestinian conflict.

"There are biblical reasons for treating both sides with compassionate public justice in the same way that disputes should be settled between nations generally," says Baptist theologian John Piper. "In other words, the Bible does not teach us to be partial to Israel or to the Palestinians because either has a special divine status."

Echoing Rabbi Schwartz, Piper notes, "a non-covenant-keeping people does not have a divine right to hold the land of promise. … Israel has no warrant to a present experience of divine privilege when she is not keeping covenant with God."

As such, the Christian response should be to weigh judicially the claims of both sides to the land and actions to defend or take it and to continue to evangelize them both – salvation is as much for the Jew as the Palestinian. And we must not forget this last point. The Jews' final expulsion happened because they rejected the Messiah. Until they accept him, they are forever in exile.

This is not an argument for pacifism or a wink at Palestinian aggression. Aggressors must be stopped, killed if necessary. But we must not quickly assume the righteousness of the Israelis simply because they are "God's chosen" and the evil of the Palestinians because they are not.

Also, is King "Harrah" the Hebrew way of pronouncing Herod ? (honestly asking here...I haven't heard of this pronunciation)

Because "Herod" was the King that didn't have enough balls to make a decision about Jesus' fate.

Luke 23:8 - 8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle. 9 He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. 11Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate.

Pontius Pilate was the coward who couldn't stand up for what was right, because of peer pressure:

Luke 23:13-24 - 13 Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, 14 and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. 15 Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. 16 Therefore, I will punish him and then release him." 18 With one voice they cried out, "Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us!" 19 (Barabbas had been thrown into prison for an insurrection in the city, and for murder.) 20 Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. 21 But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!" 22 For the third time he spoke to them: "Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him." 23 But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. 24 So Pilate decided to grant their demand.



[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-08-2004).]

What were the conditions that god placed on the land of the Israelites?

quote:Originally posted by BaKeD_gOoDs:

What were the conditions that god placed on the land of the Israelites?



I think I remember(don't quote me) Thou women must have big butts and be enthusiastic about shopping. And: "don't do drugs, drugs are bad,mmmk?"

Damnit, Wolf...I don't WANT to like you ! *grin*

Stop being funny, and seh.

quote:Originally posted by BaKeD_gOoDs:

What were the conditions that god placed on the land of the Israelites?



If the Jews did as God commanded...

Deuteronomy 28:1-14:

1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:

3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.

6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.

7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.

8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.

9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD , and they will fear you. 11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity-in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground-in the land he swore to your forefathers to give you.

12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.



If not...

Deuteronomy 28:15-68:

15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. [1] 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the LORD will drive you.

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.

45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you-so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot-will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name-the LORD your God- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods-gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, it's God's body. *lol*

Just teasin'. It IS, but I am not going to go there...off topic. *smiles*

No, it is not off-topic. It is an analogy with I meant to show that the poster's claim that you could never own any land is erroneous.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

I think I remember(don't quote me) Thou women must have big butts and be enthusiastic about shopping. And: "don't do drugs, drugs are bad,mmmk?"

all jewish chicks at my school like that exactly like that ... (which sucks cause being jewish I'd rather have 'relationships' with jewish girls but that doent apear possible)

however about jews that 'belive' in jesus we dont consdier them to be jews and the ones that do also belive that all christains are jewish.

To the origanal poster i loved reading that post...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Damnit, Wolf...I don't WANT to like you ! *grin*

Stop being funny, and seh.

I am a likeable character. I think if there was a God, he would enjoy humour. Humour is certainly what this forum needs.

quote:Originally posted by Uncus:

No, it is not off-topic. It is an analogy with I meant to show that the poster's claim that you could never own any land is erroneous.



This is gonna get way to philosophical, but in short: your mind controls your body and your body belongs to you. Those teeny animals are using you as a host, in much the same way as we use the land as our host.

The point I was making was that if the Queen of England declares that a certain piece of land is hers, it doesn't mean that she owns it. What if someone claimed it last week. Are they less important or less entitled to own land?

But if you really want to push this arguement I'll concede because my heart really isn't in it.

Thanks, Captain Obvious !

(anyone here not fully aware of what he just said, PRIOR to his post ?)