Digital_Savior and any other chistians out their i want to no if you can help me with this.

Alot of athiest's say that if god exists why doesn't he prove that he exists.

Then you christian's reply, because god gives us free will or that god works in mysterious ways.

Then athiest's say that if we have free will why does he impose all these rules on us.

Then you say, so that we have the rules and so that we can better or selves and whatnot....

Am i right so far?

Well im not an athiest yet i dont belive in god. im sort of in the middle. What makes me go more towards the side of not beliving in god is the amount of hypocritical and unanwsered things about the religion.

Like...

God created humans (My quote below). which means he gave them emotions. Yet one of his comandments say, Thow shal not lust. Yet he was, according to the bible, the one who created us. So that shows that he made an error (because how could their be a default in us if we are created from his person. yet christians preach that god is all powerfull and doesnt make mistakes.

Personal i quite like The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy's point of view on god.

Ow and i think somewere Digital_Savior, you said something about the bible be a great historical book. That was easily the funnist thing i've herd in a while thank you.

This morning i saw one of those really early christian talk show were a couple of ladies sat around talking about God. The show said it had been on for 25 years so obviously its quite good. I watch a bit of it and saw something hypocritical. The lady said that god created the earth and all that, then she went on to talk about how we are the decendents of Adam & Eve but we know that the earth was around for probley millions of years before Adam & Eve.

And yet in the bible (The one in front of me) it says that god created the heavens and the earth and all that then...

Genesis 26

"Then god said,"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27

So God created man in his own image,

in the image of god,

In the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

(Am i interpreting this right because to me it look like it says he created himself. after he was already their)

31

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was morning - the sixth day.

End Quote

Also with that, i saw something somewere and it said that 98% of all scientists that study human history and that type of thing belilve in the evolution theory, and i would rather belive scientists then a group of normal people and a book. (My own opinion)



Edit: I've fixed the mistakes i can see for those who hate them. Sorry english isn't my greatest subject.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

"God created humans. He also gave them emotions. Yet one of his laws say, Thow shal not lust. Yet he was , according to the bible, the one who created that emotion in us. SO that shows that he made a mistake yet christians preach that god is all powerfull and doesnt make mistakes."

All of the religious people that I have spoken with seem to view life as a 'test'. Now, can you test someone's morality if you make it impossible for them to do bad deeds? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

"but what makes me go more towards the side of not beliving in god is the amount of hypocritical and unanwsered things about the religion."

That's a pretty big claim for someone with only one example that I believe I have just demolished.

"Ow and i thing somewere Digital_Savior you said something about the bible be a great historical book. That was easily the funnist thing ive herd in a while thatnk you."

You plan on backing this up with anything at all? Criticism that accomplishes nothing is a waste.

Please, clean up your grammar and spelling.

your speaking of a false religion

go search for the real one

QUOTE Originally posted by Agnostic:

Alot of athiests say that if god exists why doesnt he prove that he exist.

Then you christians reply because god gives us free will or that god works in mysterious ways.

I WANT TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THIS IS SOLELY MY LINE OF THINKING, NOT DIRECTLY FROM CHURCH TEACHING, BUT ONLY FROM WHAT I HAVE UNDERSTOOD, FROM READING THE BIBLE... MY THOUGHT MAY BE VERY FULL OF MISTAKES. i HOPE THIS IS NOT A STUMBLING BLOCK FOR ANYONE

While freewill and 'mysterious ways' are true, I think there is at least one more thing to consider...

If God "proves" His existence (He does, but that is another discussion) we, as sinners, will still be disobiedient to Him. If we know because He showed Himself, we have lost most of freewill, and have even less "excuse" for sinning. While belief that the Messiah saves/saved us from our sins would still be true, I think that God would be much less tolerant and patient, while we choose. I think that God holding back the amount of proof that He gives us, is ALMOST as big a gift as sending His Son to pay our debt.

Then athiests say that if we have free will why does he impose all these rules on us.

Then you say so that we have the rules ao that we can better or selves and whatnot....

AM i right so far?

you got the gist. But the purpose of the Law is to point to the need for a Savior. It was mentioned in another topic (and the Word), that we cannot keep all the Laws. Not even if we try really, really hard.

Well im not an athiest yet i dont belive in god. im in the middle. but what makes me go more towards the side of not beliving in god is the amount of hypocritical and unanwsered things about the religion.

Let's start with *hypocritical*.

hypocrite n. (from the Greek hypokrites, originally meaning "actor", literally "one that answers"): a person who practices hypocrisy

my other dictionary adds this-- a person that whose actions belie stated beliefs.

hypocrisy n. :a pretending to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; esp: a pretending to be more virtuous or religious than one really is

Here is my question: How do you KNOW if a person is a hypocrite?

One possibility is that the person really is a hypocrite. Another possibility is that they dont know that they are screwing up. Still another possibility, which is related to option #2, is that, that person has not reached a particular maturity level in their faith (reguarding, atleast, the observed violation) and is still growing in faith (as all Christians are, for his entire lifetime).

Also, is a particular person, constantly falling short, or is he 'having a bad day' (anger comes to mind as an example of this, for both sides of the point)?

Another possibility, and you bring this up in your next statement (lust)(which is one of my great failings). Is it a failing that this "hypocrite" is working on correcting, and you just haven't seen the 'end product'.

Like...

God created humans. He also gave them emotions. Yet one of his laws say, Thow shal not lust. Yet he was , according to the bible, the one who created that emotion in us. SO that shows that he made a mistake yet christians preach that god is all powerfull and doesnt make mistakes.

Let's go back to my disclaimer for a moment..

I think.. "how much procreating would be done without some amount of lust? Would we still be like 3rd graders, running around saying "you got boy/girl germs" and "boys/girls got cooties"? Men and women are so different, that it is amazing that we get together at all, without some sort of attraction.

As to the post about testing us, God knows everything, so I dont think that He is testing us for the purpose of "pass/fail", but rather like refining us, so that we grow and mature...in the case of non-believers, this "growing" is more like-- starting, nudging, whispering that He exists...to get the unbeleiver to accept Him, so that the unbeliever can have the gift of life eternal.

Ow and i thing somewere Digital_Savior you said something about the bible be a great historical book. That was easily the funnist thing ive herd in a while thatnk you.

Eye thin you ment...

OH, and i THINK SOMEWHERE, D_S, you said something about the bible (TO) be a great historical book. That was easily the FUNNIEST thing i've HEARD in a while. thank you.

I have terrible spelling, so i am not really judging you (or anyone else) for spelling.

I use two things when i reply, to help out some... #1. a wife that can spell #2. a dictionary

You can not use my wife, but i implore you to use a dictionary, PLEASE. It tends to be difficult (at times) deciphering so many spelling errors.

there is a third tip that i SHOULD use,...

re-read the post before hitting 'submit reply'...that is why you are the first person that i have said anything to, about spelling (and grammar)... i dont like being percieved as a hippocrit LOL

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

QUOTE Originally posted by Agnostic:

Alot of athiests say that if god exists why doesnt he prove that he exist.

Then you christians reply because god gives us free will or that god works in mysterious ways.

I WANT TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THIS IS SOLELY MY LINE OF THINKING, NOT DIRECTLY FROM CHURCH TEACHING, BUT ONLY FROM WHAT I HAVE UNDERSTOOD, FROM READING THE BIBLE... MY THOUGHT MAY BE VERY FULL OF MISTAKES. i HOPE THIS IS NOT A STUMBLING BLOCK FOR ANYONE

While freewill and 'mysterious ways' are true, I think there is at least one more thing to consider...

If God "proves" His existence (He does, but that is another discussion) we, as sinners, will still be disobiedient to Him. If we know because He showed Himself, we have lost most of freewill, and have even less "excuse" for sinning. While belief that the Messiah saves/saved us from our sins would still be true, I think that God would be much less tolerant and patient, while we choose. I think that God holding back the amount of proof that He gives us, is ALMOST as big a gift as sending His Son to pay our debt.

This does not change my disclaimer, it is just meant to back up why i believe what i said.

(This is Jesus talking..)

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Ow and If god created the Garden of Eden. were is it now because in the bible it doesnt say that he his it, but that he put a giant flaming sword in front of the door.

I would like to see this sword.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Agnostic:



If he once showed himself to stop sinning, why hasent't he done it again, for i think that the billions of people we have now on earth would sin more than the couple of million that sinned back then.

Jesus has not been very active on earth recently but Ganesh has.

http://www.crystalinks.com/milkmiracle.html

The real question is why did God send Jesus to save people only in the Middle East? If he really is omnipotent he would know that it would be about a thousand years before anyone outside of Europe or North Africa would hear about him.

quote:Originally posted by Agnostic:

(This is Jesus talking..)

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

If he once showed himself to stop sinning, why hasent't he done it again, for i think that the billions of people we have now on earth would sin more than the couple of million that sinned back then.

Ow and If god created the Garden of Eden. were is it now because in the bible it doesnt say that he his it, but that he put a giant flaming sword in front of the door.

I would like to see this sword.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]



Did you read both posts--thoroughly?

In the 1st place (in the 1st post), my disclaimer says that this part is my understanding, not what is taught by the church. The 2nd post is from the Bible, that may back up what i think, but does not make my thought conclusive.

In the 2nd place, the passage (Jesus) says that if He had NOT showed up and talked to them, there would not be sin... (remember, Jesus is God. So, if you understand the passage, Jesus (God) is who gave Moses the commandments AND Jesus (the Son) came to take away sin... wait, no offense but i think i'm giving you too much to handle at this point in your life...lets start with the basics...

You said, "Ow and If god created the Garden of Eden. were is it now because in the bible it doesnt say that he his it, but that he put a giant flaming sword in front of the door.

I would like to see this sword."

The Garden was guarded by an angel (who had a flaming sword). The bible makes no meantion of a door. Nor does it say the size of the sword.

The bible also says where the garden was. However, it existed before the flood. I would guess that the Garden was destoyed during the flood, therefore there is no need for an angel with a sword to guard it.

When i say that we need to get back to the basics, i mean that we need to read more carefully.

I really am NOT trying to insult you. But you said that you are leaning toward non-belief. How can you make any decision, without atleast knowing the basics of what is taught.

As to the first part (about John 15:22)

Maybe this will help understand...

As a little kid, you might have picked your nose. It wasnt bad, or dirty, or wrong, until your parents told you that it was bad/ dirty/ wrong.

If you got caught picking your nose after you were taught by your parents, then you had no excuse, so you would have been punished (or atleast scolded)

I think this is the general idea behind this verse. There is much more, but your not ready for it yet.

God Bless You

You were right i didnt read it properly and i retract my statement. And the thing about the garden of eden was a joke.

Ow and i havent read the whole bible yet, about halfway.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Agnostic:

Ow and If god created the Garden of Eden. were is it now because in the bible it doesnt say that he his it, but that he put a giant flaming sword in front of the door.

I would like to see this sword.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-15-2004).]



the garden of eden is in the middle east

iraq area that is eden and it wasn't created by god it was created by lucifer and his demons to create what would be the first humans

enki666

quote:Originally posted by Agnostic:

This morning i saw one of those really early christian talk show were a couple of ladies sat around talking about God. The show said it had been on for 25 years so obviously its quite good. I watch a bit of it and saw something hypocritical. The lady said that god created the earth and all that, then she went on to talk about how we are the decendents of Adam & Eve but we know that the earth was around for probley millions of years before Adam & Eve.

And yet in the bible (The one in front of me) it says that god created the heavens and the earth and all that then...

Genesis 26

"Then god said,"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27

So God created man in his own image,

in the image of god,

In the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

(Am i interpreting this right because to me it look like it says he created himself. after he was already their)

31

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was morning - the sixth day.

End Quote

Edit: I've fixed the mistakes i can see for those who hate them. Sorry english isn't my greatest subject.

Thank you for making an effort on fixing some of the mistakes. Just write like you talk, but take the time to check the spellings in a dictionary, and things should get better.

First, let me repeat that I believe that God created everything, less than 7000 years ago. I believe the bible is God's Word and i believe it literally.

i was going to post the passages you quoted, again, from a couple of different Bible versions (King James, NIV, and Literal with Strong's numbers), if you want, i still can.

But after getting it about half done, i realized that it was very lengthy and very confusing...so, i will try to point out some key words that might clear things up alittle.

In Gen 1, verse 26 and 27 from the NIV version.

26. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

in verse 26, "man" is used as "mankind", which is show from the use of "them"

in verse 27, "man" is used as 'singular' which is shown by the use of "him"... but then "them" is back to "mankind" shown by the use of "male and female".

So basically, v.26 is "the planning" stage, but in the first part of v.27, it is the action of creating. And last part of v.27, is the completion.

Now that is basically how i read these two verses, there is more, but then you would be looking at each word, and checking it with each definition...

just for an example--the Hebrew word for

"in Our image"

Strong's Ref. # 6754

Romanized tselem

Pronounced tseh'-lem

from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:

KJV--image, vain shew

If you really are interested, i suggest that you might read some commentaries of the bible, at the same time as you read the bible. One of the ones i use, is on CD-ROM called "the bible suite". It has lots of different bible versions and languges, along with commentaries, dictionaries, maps, etc. It was $19.95 at Office Max, but i've seen it at other stores too.

Another suggestion, join a bible study at a church. i dont think you need to be a member of the church, and you probably dont even need to believe, in order to join. The reason i suggest this is, in this forum, you are not getting "real time" response, just short, incomplete answers to very deep questions and ideas.

I'm not sure, but if you went into a Physics forum, with a small amout of knowledge, and asked deep questions about Physic, you would probably be told to learn the basics first, or else you just wouldnt understand the answers.

I hope that i have been helpful. God Bless You