There are two main reasons that I belive in God, I would also like to hear your guys' reasoning on whether or not a God exists.

1.) The first reason that I belive God exists is because the universe is so perfect, everything in nature is perfect, science is perfect, math is perfect. All of the constants and formulas that exist couldn't possibly exist without the presence of some sort of higher presence.

2.) The second and most important reason that I think a God exists is the simple fact that we are even able to debate the existence of a God.

Those are my reasons that a God exists/doesn't exist, what are your reasons?

i know the gods because i communicate with them and experience their doings every day.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

There are two main reasons that I belive in God, I would also like to hear your guys' reasoning on whether or not a God exists.

1.) The first reason that I belive God exists is because the universe is so perfect, everything in nature is perfect, science is perfect, math is perfect. All of the constants and formulas that exist couldn't possibly exist without the presence of some sort of higher presence.

2.) The second and most important reason that I think a God exists is the simple fact that we are even able to debate the existence of a God.

Those are my reasons that a God exists/doesn't exist, what are your reasons?

1) Nature is perfect because it has to be. If it wasn't, life as we know it couldn't exist. Why do you think that it's impossible that nature doesn't have a creator, but you think it's ok that god doesn't have a creator? Where did god come from?

2) What do you mean we're not even able to debate whether he really exists? I'm doing that right now!

[This message has been edited by Rekkr (edited 09-18-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rekkr:

1) Nature is perfect because it has to be. If it wasn't, life as we know it couldn't exist. Why do you think that it's impossible that nature doesn't have a creator, but you think it's ok that god doesn't have a creator? Where did god come from?

2) What do you mean we're not even able to debate whether he really exists? I'm doing that right now!

[This message has been edited by Rekkr (edited 09-18-2004).]

i think he is saying that because people can even ask themselves "does god exist?" is such a magical thing that it means there must be a god.

quote:Originally posted by pelando cumbre:

i think he is saying that because people can even ask themselves "does god exist?" is such a magical thing that it means there must be a god.

This is what I meant, sorry if I confused you.

quote:Originally posted by Rekkr:

1) Nature is perfect because it has to be. If it wasn't, life as we know it couldn't exist. Why do you think that it's impossible that nature doesn't have a creator, but you think it's ok that god doesn't have a creator? Where did god come from?

One or the other must have always been, but dont you find it interesting that the writers of the Bible call God as "the Everlasting to Everlasting". Pretty amazing concept ~ eternity. We cant even comprehend this concept. Also there is "In the begining, God created...". This too, is amazing. If this were not God inspired, but rather made up by man.. the early writers would have read this and said, "that sounds like bullshit, we better edit this. It dont make sense." .. only they probably wouldn't have said it in english.

My religious views have absolutely nothing to do with the mathematical equilibrium of nature. In fact, it has to do with the exact opposite: the inquantifiable experience of the presence of the gods. Nothing but that can convince an atheist, and afterwards, nothing can convince a theist otherwise.

I think just the fact that earth has not been hit by a meteor to destroy the entire human species, is a reason to belive, that there is a higher being, watching over us.

There is a balance in everything, in nature, in our life, in everyday siutations, everywhere we go, everything we see, there is always a balance, a good and hte bad, the beauty, and the ugly, the hate and the love, that is another reason why I belive there is a god, because of this harmonic balance.

but what do we know, we are just animals, thinking that we are special, because we have a mind that can think for itself.

and if there wouldent be people that love god, do things for god, pray to him, mediate to him, i'm sure god would have already destroy this planet.

Napoleon:

"The first reason that I belive God exists is because the universe is so perfect, everything in nature is perfect, science is perfect, math is perfect."

I am currently in good health. I have no serious physical or mental problems. So, all in all, my current condition is "perfect" (keep this in perspective, I am not claiming to be perfection). However, this can change at any moment. Tomorrow I may end up in an accident that could cripple me for life. I could discover that I have some terminal illness. The point is, perfection is temporary.

Similarly, our planet and nature may seem perfect for the time being. However, we may have a meteor come along in a few years, ready to erase all of us from the history books. This suggests to me that the universe is much more chaotic than you make it out to be. The fact remains, anything can happen at any time and there is nothing that we can do about it.

"All of the constants and formulas that exist couldn't possibly exist without the presence of some sort of higher presence."

And why is that?

"The second and most important reason that I think a God exists is the simple fact that we are even able to debate the existence of a God."

The human imagination is a very powerful thing. I could open a debate about the existence of a secret society of gnomes living underground. Does this make their existence any more believable? The mere fact that I can present an idea, a faith, does not give it any sort of credibility.

quote:I am currently in good health. I have no serious physical or mental problems. So, all in all, my current condition is "perfect" (keep this in perspective, I am not claiming to be perfection). However, this can change at any moment. Tomorrow I may end up in an accident that could cripple me for life. I could discover that I have some terminal illness. The point is, perfection is temporary.

But that is what you percieve as perfection. In my mind's eye, the universe is perfect, the solar system is perfect simply becase they exist. The fact that something so large and wonderful and complex is able to exist is proof to me that there is a higher being.

quote:Similarly, our planet and nature may seem perfect for the time being. However, we may have a meteor come along in a few years, ready to erase all of us from the history books. This suggests to me that the universe is much more chaotic than you make it out to be. The fact remains, anything can happen at any time and there is nothing that we can do about it.

If this was to happen the universe would still be perfect, the only thing that would be imperfect about it would be the way we percieve it. We would only see the thing that affects out microcosm os a universe, instead of seeing the big picture that the universe is still perfect.



quote:"All of the constants and formulas that exist couldn't possibly exist without the presence of some sort of higher presence."

And why is that?

Because no mere mortal could create something so perfect like math and science. While we may have discovered these things, someone else created them.

quote:The human imagination is a very powerful thing. I could open a debate about the existence of a secret society of gnomes living underground. Does this make their existence any more believable? The mere fact that I can present an idea, a faith, does not give it any sort of credibility.

You're twisting my words.

When I said: "because we can debate about God, he must exist". I wasn't saying that just because you say something or think something that it is true. I was saying that because we can use reason and logic when talking about something we don't understand, proves that something wants us to be able to think about whether or not a higher being exists.

why must you believe something complex created all these things lower than itself,

doesnt it make more sense that many simple things grew increasingly more complex?

A lot of people don't necissarily belive that God is complex, me being one of them. I belive that what he created is complex, but I believe it all originated from one event, whether it be the big bang or the initial creation of matter.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

1.) The first reason that I belive God exists is because the universe is so perfect, everything in nature is perfect, science is perfect, math is perfect. All of the constants and formulas that exist couldn't possibly exist without the presence of some sort of higher presence.



The universe is far from perfect; the generally accepted idea is that the universe is constantly descending into a state of entropy, or disorder, or imperfection. All "constants and formulas", I assume you're referring to physics, are derived from observation; they don't just "magically" work every time (and let me vouch for that personally, as an AP physics student), you have to work them logically. It's not magic.

quote:

2.) The second and most important reason that I think a God exists is the simple fact that we are even able to debate the existence of a God.



We can also debate the existence of any arbitrary, ethereal idea that I bring up: classic example, we can debate huge, invisible pink elephants, and whether they exist.

quote:

Those are my reasons that a God exists/doesn't exist, what are your reasons?

I say that there is an equal possibility of God existing or not existing; since it can't be proved in one way or another. If I apply "burden of proof", as I'm apt to do, my skepticism wins out and I say there's no God. I want proof, plain and simple.

quote:The universe is far from perfect; the generally accepted idea is that the universe is constantly descending into a state of entropy, or disorder, or imperfection. All "constants and formulas", I assume you're referring to physics, are derived from observation; they don't just "magically" work every time (and let me vouch for that personally, as an AP physics student), you have to work them logically. It's not magic.

This depends on one's view of perfection, IMO, something so huge and vast has to be perfect and has to be created by something bigger than we can comprehend. Using logic is another reason that I belive in a higher being, the fact that we are able to work out problems and use our minds that someone provided for us.



quote:We can also debate the existence of any arbitrary, ethereal idea that I bring up: classic example, we can debate huge, invisible pink elephants, and whether they exist.

I never said that because we can debate something it is true, but the simple fact that we are even capable of debating an unknown is amazing, proof to me that something put us here.



quote:I say that there is an equal possibility of God existing or not existing; since it can't be proved in one way or another. If I apply "burden of proof", as I'm apt to do, my skepticism wins out and I say there's no God. I want proof, plain and simple.

Why must the burden always be on the one who believes in god, when both sides are unable to provide undeniable evidence that their way is best?

I think when he is saying that the universe is perfect, i think he is taking into account the chaos that is included in it. What i think he means is that the balance of the order and the chaos is so perfect as to achieve something that does not ultimately destroy itself.

This on its own is something that I believe is very powerful in and of itself. Think about it, the balance of creation and destruction, the creation of stars and planets out of the utter destruction of another star or planet, the fact that we have things such as black holes which devour basically everything that they come into contact with, and on the opposing side have quazars that constantly spew light and matter into the depths of space. The fact that there is ultimately no waste in our universe, that there is no spontaneous creation or utter obliteration of matter, that it basically is all the same stuff that has been around since the initial singularity that created this complex and, in other words, "perfect" universe.

quote:Originally posted by stonerdelasoul:



doesnt it make more sense that many simple things grew increasingly more complex?

no, it doesnt make more sense.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

This depends on one's view of perfection, IMO, something so huge and vast has to be perfect and has to be created by something bigger than we can comprehend. Using logic is another reason that I belive in a higher being, the fact that we are able to work out problems and use our minds that someone provided for us.

"Has" to be perfect? You just refuted that notion by saying perfection is subjective. Therefore, by your own accord, it doesn't "have to be perfect"!

quote:

I never said that because we can debate something it is true, but the simple fact that we are even capable of debating an unknown is amazing, proof to me that something put us here.

In other words, the fact that we can use our brains? That we are sentient beings? That's what shows to you that a god must exist?

That's already explained by Science.

quote:

Why must the burden always be on the one who believes in god, when both sides are unable to provide undeniable evidence that their way is best?

The burden of proof is on the one who makes the positive assertion, namely theists. The vast majority of atheists do not claim to know god(s) doesn't(don't) exist. They believe he doesn't exist because of lack of evidence. That's the difference.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The burden of proof is on the one who makes the positive assertion, namely theists. The vast majority of atheists do not claim to know god(s) doesn't(don't) exist. They believe he doesn't exist because of lack of evidence. That's the difference.



In other words, the fact that we can use our brains? That we are sentient beings? That's what shows to you that a god must exist?

That's already explained by Science.

In the spirit of "The burden of proof is on the one who makes the positive assertion", please show proof that "That's already explained by Science."... because the way i understand it, science has neither explained why we have the ability to think nor how that ability came to being... only theories, but they are working on understanding it.

You just answered yourself. It has theories. Those are the explanations.

The mere fact that they are "theories" does not mean they are incorrect, or that they do not have evidence to support them.

Napoleon:

"The fact that something so large and wonderful and complex is able to exist is proof to me that there is a higher being."

Why must there be a higher being? Isn't it equally acceptable to assume that this 'wonderful and complex' existence is simply the nature of the universe? Why must a higher being always be given credit for the wonders of nature?

"If this was to happen the universe would still be perfect, the only thing that would be imperfect about it would be the way we percieve it. We would only see the thing that affects out microcosm os a universe, instead of seeing the big picture that the universe is still perfect."

So, you're saying that the universe is perfect, regardless of how we see it. This makes no sense in my mind. Our individual perceptions are really all that matter in our own little worlds. We each shape our own reality. If this is true, then how can the universe be inherently perfect? Everyone sees it differently.

"Because no mere mortal could create something so perfect like math and science. While we may have discovered these things, someone else created them."

Or maybe they are simply the laws of nature. Why do you believe that something must have 'created' these laws? Maybe they just... 'are'.

"When I said: 'because we can debate about God, he must exist'. I wasn't saying that just because you say something or think something that it is true. I was saying that because we can use reason and logic when talking about something we don't understand, proves that something wants us to be able to think about whether or not a higher being exists."

Circular logic.

Why do we have the ability to debate the existence of a God?

Because God exists. He gave us this ability.

But how do we know for certain that God exists?

Because we have the ability to debate its existence.

"Why must the burden always be on the one who believes in god, when both sides are unable to provide undeniable evidence that their way is best?"

If I told you that my secret society of gnomes does indeed exist, would you not expect some proof?

Tell me, does this make much sense to you : "Prove that this object does not exist." Proven facts rely on evidence... which a non-existent item cannot possibly produce.

Ok, I'm too tired to continue, but I think I covered most of the topics I wanted to hit. Looking forward to a good response.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You just answered yourself. It has theories. Those are the explanations.

The mere fact that they are "theories" does not mean they are incorrect, or that they do not have evidence to support them.

Did I say that they were incorrect? Or correct, for that matter? But, Rust, you did imply to napoleon_complex (and everyone else) that the explainations provided from science, were fact and not theory.

No.

I said they were explained, which they are. Whether you accept those explanations as true or false, or whether they result to be true or false, is independent of what I said.

Why is everyone debating? Just say why you believe in god or why you don't believe in god.

1. define 'god'

2. try negative reasoning

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/dgp1/petition.html

1) I pretty much agree with your first point. Nature has a level of randomness, if you look at a forest, everything grows without any obvious pattern. But if you look at space, all the major objects operate under very strict laws of force, motion, etc. The order is really breathtaking. Studying all the sciences through school and college has really affimed my faith.

2) Regarding your second point, it's sort of a variation on Descarte's idea that because we have an abstract knowledge of god, there must be a concrete existance of god as well. For instance, if you think of a Cow, you get an image in your head of a Cow, but that image isn't what every cow looks like, it's an abstract. Descarte is saying we can't precieve an abscract god if there is no real god.

It's a decent idea, but it relys on the notion that humans are incapable of having a truely creative thought that doesn't rely on something that already exists, something i'd like to think isn't true. I'm not sure if it's good enough to alone argue for god's existance.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by dr_rock:

1. define 'god'

2. try negative reasoning

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/dgp1/petition.html

1.)god can't be defined the same way for everyone, it all depends on how you define god.

2.)No.

That petition is retarded.