I already made a topic relating to this, but it's dead now, so here's the exchange, heavily truncated.

Me: I'm not christian but if I'm good can I get into heaven anyway?

Them: Nil. Gotta accept Jesus.

Me: I don't get it. Want proof.

Them: Bible.

Me: Bible has preconception of truth. Need other.

Them: All around you.

Me: Nil. Something concrete.

Them: You don't want to accept it. Have an open mind.

Me: Self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is where the topic died, I think.

Now I'm going to work on the presumption of my knowledge of a Christian God, here's what I will be using so tell me if I'm wrong:

God gives the gift of volition for life, takes it away at death. If you don't accept God (&Jesus?) you go to purgatory/limbo (for Dante fans), or Hell if you're "bad". Good and Bad are notions as exist in the bible, Ten Commandments and the flurry of myriad rules.

So I'm going to address several things here. Reply however you want, just no flames. And please keep it reasonably short, nobody likes 2 page replies.

Firstly, let's say God does exist, and there's a Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. What I gleaned from the last topic is that I'm not getting into that Great Gig in the Sky unless I accept Christianity. This totally doesn't fly with me, as was touched upon in the exchange above. If I'm a "good person" (I live according to my conscience), why will I be faulted for that?

God provides me no objective evidence of his existence, praying instead my faith. Since I was not raised Christian, but rather agnostic, I was raised to believe, more or less, to live by my morals (instilled in me by my parents and society). If that's how I was raised, and that is what I am most sure is correct, why will God fault me for living my life how I feel is correct? Unless God can provide me objective proof of his truth (not the Bible, remember), how can I in good conscience believe it?

And nextly, this is less personal: I want to know what happened to all the people before Jesus (or before Joseph Smith, Mohammed, or whoever your principal Christian prophet is)? Are they just screwed? Dante said they went to limbo, but he was a crazy 14th century Catholic.

I'm sure you can see a pattern with my thoughts about religion, and it centers on proof. I want to further the discussion (was it you, Digital_Savior, who was the principal replier to my posts?), so again refer to the summary atop this post to avoid redundancy.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

If you don't accept God (&Jesus?) you go to purgatory/limbo (for Dante fans), or Hell if you're "bad".

My family is half-Catholic, I used to know a lot about purgatory in my youth, but I'm rusty. From what I remember, even devout Catholics must spend some time in purgatory before going to heaven.

As for all the people before the messiah, they were saved, In accordance with God's will. The rightous were saved, It spoke of Moses, Elijah, and Elisha (the prophtes, patriarchs, etc.). I would assume that God saved whoever he thought deserved it.

But you also must remember, the jews had no notion of Heaven or Hell before the Greeks pretty much.

I won't answer your other questions because I am interested as well.

Most fundies would say you are damned because you haven't accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

My family is half-Catholic, I used to know a lot about purgatory in my youth, but I'm rusty. From what I remember, even devout Catholics must spend some time in purgatory before going to heaven.

It is true, they do say that. But, I think it's just a trump card the church pulls when threats of eternal damnation aren't sufficient. Because although it's been said, it isn't written anywhere and isn't as prevalent as the standard heaven/hell afterlife claim.

QUOTE Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Firstly, let's say God does exist, and there's a Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. What I gleaned from the last topic is that I'm not getting into that Great Gig in the Sky unless I accept Christianity. This totally doesn't fly with me, as was touched upon in the exchange above. If I'm a "good person" (I live according to my conscience), why will I be faulted for that?

First, let me reiterate that you said "Firstly, let's say God does exist, and there's a Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell", so im going to reply from this perspective.

You say that you are a good person per your conscience. Do you think that lying or stealing are wrong? Have you ever lied or stole, however slight or for whatever motive? If you answered yes to these questions, then you fell short of your own "law". This can apply to whatever your conscience deems as good or bad.

Now back to your assumption for this debate (that God exists). If God gave "law" (actually, He gave 613 or so, commandments) and He requires that we obey each and everyone, completely. And He tells us what the punishment is for disobedience, He can only be "Just" if He keeps His word, so He must punish sinners.

Now, He already knows that we will fall short of His commands, so He gave us a "loop-hole", the Messiah, to suffer our punishment in our place. There is a catch though. We have to accept Him (Messiah) AND accept that He paid the punishment for us.

The Jews, as a people, rejected Jesus, because they were expecting the Messiah to be a Warrior-King. Because they rejected Him, He "rejected them" and gave the gift of Himself to non-Jews.

The Jews are God's chosen people, and He has made a promise to them, that they would always be His people. If God is true to His word, they need to be saved also. But they can't until they accept the Savior. This is the purpose of the Second Coming. And this is where Jesus will be that Warrior-King. That is the time that the chosen, will accept the Messiah.

This brings us to the case at hand, namely your post. The way to get to the "Big Gig in the Sky". Unless you have lived God's Law to the letter, the only way to get to "Gig-El", is to accept the Messiah and believe that He paid the penalty. And you only have your lifetime to choose. Which, in my opinion, is generous. Concider 2 people, one believes all his life. the 2nd chooses a minute before he dies. Both get the same retirement benifits..eternal life. If you are the second person, the tough part is knowing when your time is almost up.

God provides me no objective evidence of his existence

I think that if God showed the proof that you are asking, we would still find ways to doubt. And we most definitly would still disobey Him. And if we still disobeyed, despite this proof, we would be held to an even higher level of accountability.

And nextly, this is less personal: I want to know what happened to all the people before Jesus (or before Joseph Smith, Mohammed, or whoever your principal Christian prophet is)? Are they just screwed? Dante said they went to limbo, but he was a crazy 14th century Catholic.

I'll try to tackle this some other time, i need to research it better, because everything i start to write makes little to no sense even to me. I kinda know what i'm trying to say, but its coming out all screwed up...not to mention the stupid adware and popup invasion.

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 09-23-2004).]

"I think that if God showed the proof that you are asking, we would still find ways to doubt. And we most definitly would still disobey Him. And if we still disobeyed, despite this proof, we would be held to an even higher level of accountability."

C'mon now, if God floated through the door of my crib and turned off all the lights except him, and said to the volf: " wolf, you really should be more like Jesus." I'd be like : "o.k. just don't treat me like you treated him, and I'm there dude."



Obviously this is retarded, but what I am saying is pretty clear: show me something bog, anything.

Here's how it works:

God cannot be in the sight of sin. Humans sin. Because humans sin, they cannot be in God's sight (heaven). For humans to go to heaven, they must die without sin.

Before Christ, humans had to provide blood sacrifices to cleanse sin. But humans sin far too often to kill all those poor rabbits.

Jesus serves as the perfect sacrifice that is enough to forgive the sins of everyone.

So belief in Jesus forgives your sin and allows you to enter heaven.

We all sin. Constantly. That's why Christ is the only way to heaven. Now let me ask you this: If you don't believe in Jesus, why do you care if Christians think you're going to hell?

theBishop

"We all sin. Constantly. That's why Christ is the only way to heaven. Now let me ask you this: If you don't believe in Jesus, why do you care if Christians think you're going to hell?"

Good question. Let's rephrase it for fun: if you don't believe in Sam walton, why do you care if walmart employees think you're going to target?

I don't, I'm willing to pay more for quality.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Here's how it works:

God cannot be in the sight of sin. Humans sin. Because humans sin, they cannot be in God's sight (heaven). For humans to go to heaven, they must die without sin.

Before Christ, humans had to provide blood sacrifices to cleanse sin. But humans sin far too often to kill all those poor rabbits.

Jesus serves as the perfect sacrifice that is enough to forgive the sins of everyone.

So belief in Jesus forgives your sin and allows you to enter heaven.

We all sin. Constantly. That's why Christ is the only way to heaven. Now let me ask you this: If you don't believe in Jesus, why do you care if Christians think you're going to hell?

theBishop

The first part of your post is circular logic: I'm supposed to believe in something that there's no proof for? I addressed this in the first post.

Secondly, I'm more than happy to admit that every ideology is equally right (and equally wrong), so there's always the chance you guys are right and I have to check myself.

xwhatever:

quote:You say that you are a good person per your conscience. Do you think that lying or stealing are wrong? Have you ever lied or stole, however slight or for whatever motive? If you answered yes to these questions, then you fell short of your own "law". This can apply to whatever your conscience deems as good or bad.

My conscience isn't law; it's a guideline, and as such, it's meant to be stretched and distended.

quote:Now back to your assumption for this debate (that God exists). If God gave "law" (actually, He gave 613 or so, commandments) and He requires that we obey each and everyone, completely. And He tells us what the punishment is for disobedience, He can only be "Just" if He keeps His word, so He must punish sinners.

Now, He already knows that we will fall short of His commands, so He gave us a "loop-hole", the Messiah, to suffer our punishment in our place. There is a catch though. We have to accept Him (Messiah) AND accept that He paid the punishment for us.

So why would he make the laws, knowing we would fall short? Doesn't seem to make sense or be just, to make a law everybody will break.

quote:The Jews, as a people, rejected Jesus, because they were expecting the Messiah to be a Warrior-King. Because they rejected Him, He "rejected them" and gave the gift of Himself to non-Jews.

The Jews are God's chosen people, and He has made a promise to them, that they would always be His people. If God is true to His word, they need to be saved also. But they can't until they accept the Savior. This is the purpose of the Second Coming. And this is where Jesus will be that Warrior-King. That is the time that the chosen, will accept the Messiah.

This seems slightly irrelevant, but I'll address it anyway. So what you're saying is that when Jesus comes again the Jews will be saved? What about the ones in the middle?

quote:This brings us to the case at hand, namely your post. The way to get to the "Big Gig in the Sky". Unless you have lived God's Law to the letter, the only way to get to "Gig-El", is to accept the Messiah and believe that He paid the penalty. And you only have your lifetime to choose. Which, in my opinion, is generous. Concider 2 people, one believes all his life. the 2nd chooses a minute before he dies. Both get the same retirement benifits..eternal life. If you are the second person, the tough part is knowing when your time is almost up.

Nice try, but you failed to address my question; let's go on to the next paragraph.

quote:God provides me no objective evidence of his existence

I think that if God showed the proof that you are asking, we would still find ways to doubt. And we most definitly would still disobey Him. And if we still disobeyed, despite this proof, we would be held to an even higher level of accountability.

Still, you have failed to answer my query: prove it.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

"I think that if God showed the proof that you are asking, we would still find ways to doubt. And we most definitly would still disobey Him. And if we still disobeyed, despite this proof, we would be held to an even higher level of accountability."

C'mon now, if God floated through the door of my crib and turned off all the lights except him, and said to the volf: " wolf, you really should be more like Jesus." I'd be like : "o.k. just don't treat me like you treated him, and I'm there dude."



Obviously this is retarded, but what I am saying is pretty clear: show me something bog, anything.

God showed Himself to the Jews, on many occasion, in many different ways, and they STILL rejected Him.

Why ? It was commonplace.

He said He would never again reveal Himself in the ways he had to the Jews.

Faith is better anyway...it puts a trust that we are not used to into something we can't tangibly prove exists.

And God didn't treat Jesus any certain way...

Jesus made the choice to allow himself to be the sacrifice.

He said, "Lord, if there is any other way.."

Sounds like he was about to give up. He was bearing the weight of the world...all of our sins.

Yet, he chose to endure it, and stayed on that cross until his death.

He had the power, as the son of God, to take himself down. To live...as a human, with the burden of failure to his creation, mankind.

HE CHOSE TO DIE, SO THAT WE MAY LIVE.

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

"We all sin. Constantly. That's why Christ is the only way to heaven. Now let me ask you this: If you don't believe in Jesus, why do you care if Christians think you're going to hell?"

Good question. Let's rephrase it for fun: if you don't believe in Sam walton, why do you care if walmart employees think you're going to target?

I don't, I'm willing to pay more for quality.

You pay the ultimate price to receive what you consider quality here on earth, only to find yourself in Hell once your physical self expires.

That's just too high a price tag, in my opinion.

quote:So why would he make the laws, knowing we would fall short? Doesn't seem to make sense or be just, to make a law everybody will break.



As an illustration that we will fall short of His glory, and thus need some form of Salvation, which can only be achieved through Him..

The blood sacrifices served as a reminder of that sin...it was not the death of the animal, or even the blood, so much as the ceremony.

This act showed the PEOPLE that they had to atone for their sins...and it reminded them that God was watching.

God made all those laws, in order to illustrate how impossible it is to be perfect enough to get into heaven.

It was not to get us to follow them, it was to show us that we can't.

How do you know you are sinful, if you do not know what MAKES you sinful ?

quote:Still, you have failed to answer my query: prove it.

You prove it, Mook.

It's YOUR soul.

You want to believe it, that's obvious.

Jesus says, "Seek, and ye shall find."

"Lo, I stand at the door and knock."

All you have to do is open the door.

He's supposed to prove something he doesn't know? Brilliant!

Mook, I see your point because I mostly share it. The fact is, there is NO PROOF that the Christian Religion is "correct". You can recite as much dogma and doctrine as you like, but the proof just isnt there. I look at it this way. When you think about it, if you people are right, and everything in the Bible is true, then your God is a total dick. He'll offer no proof of his existance, no proof of what anyone is supposed to believe, no proof of ANYTHING ... but he holds you accountable for all of it. My take: Christianity has more logical holes than legs to stand on and relies on scaring people ( Hell ) to gain and keep believers. Kind of like the Bush administration...

"God showed Himself to the Jews, on many occasion, in many different ways, and they STILL rejected Him."

Stupid Jews, that's why Adolf cooked them.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You pay the ultimate price to receive what you consider quality here on earth, only to find yourself in Hell once your physical self expires.

That's just too high a price tag, in my opinion.

Ahh, delayed gratification, those are the successfull ones, they get to thank jesus for their wonderfull lives. Thank you jesus; I've gone from middle-clas easy to upper middle-class. If everyone works hard(and they start from 7, on 1-10), they will be happy too. Don't fear all ye huddled masses, for if ye are good slaves, ye will be rewarded in Bog's own heaven.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

He's supposed to prove something he doesn't know? Brilliant!

Yeah...I DID.

And so did every other Christian on this planet.

hold on digital...

is it wrong to test god?

In Matthew 4:1-7 - "1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."



4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"



5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

The word "Test" can be used in different ways, in respect to God.

It is NOT okay to say, "God, show yourself to me, or perform a miracle for my sake, so that I may be convinced of your existence."

If this were permissable, then there would be no need for faith, and Jesus' death would have been in vain.

It IS okay, to question God and His motives, so long as it is done with respect, in search of understanding.

The intention is not to make blind sheep of us, but to maintain a heightened level of respect and reverance for the Almighty creator of the universe.

To "test" in order to prove Him is like spitting in His face. (Lower yourself to my level of understanding God, so I can say you are real)

He is easily proven real when one accepts Him as God, His son as redeemer, and reads His Holy word. (He is revealed in many ways among the pages of the Bible.)

I hope this answered your question, though I am sure you are getting at something entirely different, and not at all constructive.

by your own admission, you are not convinced of god's existence.

it's okay, digital. it's called cognitive dissonance. it's a symptom of the preoccupied mind, which is to say, all perceivable thoughts.

According to Dante, the "virtuous pagans" who lived before Christ went to the 0-th level of hell. They didn't accept God, but you can't really torture Virgil, or Socrates, right? Their only punishment is that they must live in the absense of God, which is supposedly painful.

You however, are shit out of luck. You have the chance to be saved, yet you spurn it. It's straight up hell for the likes of you, no matter how good a person you are. Ghandi went to hell.

It has been a while since I read Inferno but I though the virtious pagans lived in the first level and there was a zero level outside for people who did not fear God.

Is it a sin to play with your ass hair? Or pick apart the crusty scat thats stuck to the hair?

I hope not or im going to hell.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Yeah...I DID.

And so did every other Christian on this planet.

No. You didn't prove anything. You think. You believe. That isn't proving anything.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-24-2004).]

Wouldnt it be funny if the bible was written by a bunch of guys who saw someone die, saying they were the son of a god, 2000 years ago. i mean if they saw the world and the people on it now they would be laughen their heads off.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

He is easily proven real when one accepts Him as God,

Anything is easily proven real to ones self if they accept it. But that still doesnt make it so. An example would be an insane person. To them the lepricorn that told them to burn things was as real as god is to you but that doesn't make it true.

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-24-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Agnostic (edited 09-24-2004).]

We create our own heaven or hell for ourselves on earth.

After you die, you either reincarnate or merge with spirit--what some folks call "going to heaven."

Forget the Christian myths and don't even waste your time trying to make sense of them, it can't be done. There are loads of contradictions in the scriptures, it's all mostly bs.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

We create our own heaven or hell for ourselves on earth.

After you die, you either reincarnate or merge with spirit--what some folks call "going to heaven."

Forget the Christian myths and don't even waste your time trying to make sense of them, it can't be done. There are loads of contradictions in the scriptures, it's all mostly bs.



Nicely said. But we are here to argue and argue we shall.

First off everyone is looking at this whole thing wrong. You can't use logic to prove or disprove a "belief". Besides, most of us don't even remember yesterday clearly, how can anyone expect to get the full story on what happened over 2000 years ago.

So that doesn't leave you with much does it. What "proof" is there of the Christian God? Well you have a book, some crusty scrolls, maybe a few fossils (to help support what was written in the book) and a few million believers who don't really agree on any of the details. Not to mention a sophisticated political system that effects nearly the entire world on a daily basis.

Is that enough? Well for some of us yes, for the rest, not really. The sad thing is, if your looking for answers your really not going to find any. If anything you can always look into buddhism...

The Reverend SuperCracker (http://www.openordination.com)

First of all, I don't have any problem with believing in Jesus. There have been people who have done amazing things in history, and I don't think it's that much trouble to accept that. If there is a spiritual realm beyond death, then why do many Christians strive to cling to this world, hold great material wealth, and hold even fellow Christians with disgust, contempt, and hate? What seems like true faith is not an ACT of prayer and an EXPRESSION of faith, but living a life according to good principles. Dante came up here, but Jesus already said that a good pagan can go to heaven(Parable of the Good Samaritan). Hate, greed, and concern for material wealth is a denial of faith in that respect. Why should one worry about your children's ability to buy a Porsche when in a short time of the world they could be in heaven? Why worry about anything in the world except faith? But no. Christians for some reason need shiny, pretty things on Earth. I'd call it doubt of faith.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

No. You didn't prove anything. You think. You believe. That isn't proving anything.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-24-2004).]

Nooo...YOU said, quote:"He's supposed to prove something he doesn't know? Brilliant!"

And I said, "Yeah...I did. And so did every other Christian."

THAT MEANS: I proved something I didn't know. I went and found out. I didn't sit around whining about my life, hoping someone else would come explain God to me.

Especially since I wanted to know anyway.

That's his/her scenario, and frankly I am tired of him not taking responsibility for his own desires.

He obviously wants someone to prove to him beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists, except NO HUMAN can prove that to him, because we'd also have to prove "soul" to him.

It's not tangible. It's spirit-led. And once it is felt, there is NO DENYING it exists. But that is for HIM to experience. It can't be explained.

He knows the steps he must take in order to achieve this ALREADY (based on his posts), so why is he still asking us to prove God to him ?

It's silly. Just take that simple step of faith, and it WILL be proven.

Just because YOU haven't experienced it, Rust, doesn't mean it's not true. It means you haven't experienced it.

Besides, I believe I was talking to HIM, not you.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

We create our own heaven or hell for ourselves on earth.

After you die, you either reincarnate or merge with spirit--what some folks call "going to heaven."

Forget the Christian myths and don't even waste your time trying to make sense of them, it can't be done. There are loads of contradictions in the scriptures, it's all mostly bs.

And where have YOUR myths been derived from, that is so much more reliable ?

Those contradictions are your own misinterpretation, or misunderstandings.

I can prove that. Give me some contradictions, and I will explain them. (not excuse them)

dig, you didn't respond to my post.

OK, let's give it another go.



QUOTE Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Firstly, let's say God does exist, and there's a Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. What I gleaned from the last topic is that I'm not getting into that Great Gig in the Sky unless I accept Christianity.

Actually, not by accepting Christianity, but by accepting that the Messiah paid the penaly for our sins. This is the basis of Christianity. You already accept Christianity, because you know that it exists. What is needed, is the acceptence of the basis, and this is done by repentance. Repentance is only accomplished by first realizing God's Law IS, that we have broken God's Law, and that we are condemned.

This totally doesn't fly with me, as was touched upon in the exchange above. If I'm a "good person" (I live according to my conscience), why will I be faulted for that?

As i tried to point out in the earlier post, you are a "good person" from your standards. But God has higher standards, so none of us are good.

Let's look at it a different way: We are already condemned (faulted) because of our sin. The real question is NOT "how can God send us to Hell?" BUT "how can He allow us into Heaven?"...He gave us a "loophole" BECAUSE He loves us.

God provides me no objective evidence of his existence....Unless God can provide me objective proof of his truth (not the Bible, remember), how can I in good conscience believe it?



You want proof? He gave proof. Our conscience, creation, and the Bible. Let's focus on the Bible and set the others aside.

In the Bible, God says that we should not TEMPT (try, test, etc) Him. BUT, there is one point that He says that we can ask for proof.

I'm not going to tell you where. The reason is not a teaching one, or that i dont want you to know what is. The reason i hold this back, is because I THINK that one should have the right motive for using this, and i am not sure if your motive is God's intention of this proof. But i am confident that if God allows you to know it, then God is allowing you to use it.--- So "seek and ye shall find".

And nextly, this is less personal: I want to know what happened to all the people before Jesus (or before Joseph Smith, Mohammed, or whoever your principal Christian prophet is)? Are they just screwed? Dante said they went to limbo, but he was a crazy 14th century Catholic.

This is going to bring up more questions from your (or any unbeliever's) part, but here goes anyway.

They were saved, by the same way. Through grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone. ...

Romans 4:3 For what do the Scriptures say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6-9

Genisis 15:6

Luke 24:44

Romans 3:21-22

Hebrews 1:1-3

I hope this was more clear and helpful this time around. I am sorry that you felt that the answers were not relevant, but i answered them the way that i understood what you were asking.

i have said this in other posts-- there is no way a Christian can convince someone to believe, that belief comes only from the person and the Holy Spirit.

God Bless You

sincerely, xwhatever

*cracks knuckles* - Digital, this is all for you, babe. I respect your beliefs but I won't hesitate to take as many cracks at them as possible.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

In Matthew 4:1-7 - "1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."



4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"



5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Ah, this is delicious: we're never supposed to test God, but we're supposed to believe in him nonetheless? That is fallacious, and I'm sure you see the problem here.

quote:He is easily proven real when one accepts Him as God, His son as redeemer, and reads His Holy word. (He is revealed in many ways among the pages of the Bible.)

I hope this answered your question, though I am sure you are getting at something entirely different, and not at all constructive.



Oh I see exactly what you're driving at, here: "if I accept God, he will be proven". I'm surprised that someone so defensive of their beliefs would stoop to such an obvious fallacy: that is utter circular logic.

quote:You prove it, Mook.

It's YOUR soul.

You want to believe it, that's obvious.

Jesus says, "Seek, and ye shall find."

"Lo, I stand at the door and knock."

All you have to do is open the door.



Oh well of course I want to believe in God, Jesus, heaven, et cetera: who wouldn't want an eternal after-life where the bad are punished, and the good are rewarded, and the dead are re-united? I would, chalk me down for full support of that idea.

My only excuse for not believing is that I'm a logical person, and I am unable to believe things that have not been adequately proven to me in an objective manner. Predilection towards belief and biased texts are not objective.





Well, that's the end of my "response" debate. I have an idea I've been throwing around a lot, lately, and I'm going to elucidate upon it.

You are, obviously, convinced of the utter truth of your convictions. You underwent an experience, or set of experiences, which led you to this state.

I have a set of convictions as well: they are different from yours, perhaps, but they are mine: since, as I said, I am a logical thinker, I do not accept anything without reasonable proof: I have undergone experiences in my life which lead me to hold these convictions above all others.

Since, then, the strength of my experiences must be roughly equal to those of yours (because we hold our convictions to the same magnitude), how can you tell me yours are "more true" (which is what you have done)? We have here a duel of wills, with both wills being equal.

If God exists, then surely He must have intended for me to undergo experiences such that I believe what I do: logical disbelief in Him. Therefore, is it not paradoxical for God to punish me for my convictions which are, if you believe in the doctrine of cause and effect, a result of His creation of the universe?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And where have YOUR myths been derived from, that is so much more reliable ?



(Arms, hope you don't mind me responding for you)

From his own experiences (spiritual and otherwise) which are of equal intensity to those you have experienced.

quote:Originally posted by SuperCracker:

[B]First off everyone is looking at this whole thing wrong. You can't use logic to prove or disprove a "belief". [B]

Oh, but that is where you are wrong: we have in logic a marvelous thesis known as the "burden of proof", which states, in so many words, that the skeptic is always correct: disbelief trumps belief, and the asserter must be the vilifier.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

He's supposed to prove something he doesn't know? Brilliant!

Are you siding with me, or what? It sounds like you are patronizing me, but I know all you Communists are godless (I learned this in school) too.

xtreem:

quote:Actually, not by accepting Christianity, but by accepting that the Messiah paid the penaly for our sins. This is the basis of Christianity. You already accept Christianity, because you know that it exists. What is needed, is the acceptence of the basis, and this is done by repentance. Repentance is only accomplished by first realizing God's Law IS, that we have broken God's Law, and that we are condemned

Oh I know, excuse my semantic inaccuracy.

quote:As i tried to point out in the earlier post, you are a "good person" from your standards. But God has higher standards, so none of us are good.

Let's look at it a different way: We are already condemned (faulted) because of our sin. The real question is NOT "how can God send us to Hell?" BUT "how can He allow us into Heaven?"...He gave us a "loophole" BECAUSE He loves us.

OK, I understand the belief. But let me give you a question to chew on (which I'm sure there's an answer for): assuming acceptance of Jesus does get us into Heaven, should we not still suffer for our sins? I'm not sure I completely understand the concept of "sin"; I know there are mortal and other ones, but apparently the Blood of Jesus washes us entirely of sin: and I know the more progressive Christians believe Hell/Purgatory are temporary. Could you clear this up for me?

quote:You want proof? He gave proof. Our conscience, creation, and the Bible. Let's focus on the Bible and set the others aside.

Well, OK, but you're not getting off that easily. We'll discuss those later.

quote:In the Bible, God says that we should not TEMPT (try, test, etc) Him. BUT, there is one point that He says that we can ask for proof.

I'm not going to tell you where. The reason is not a teaching one, or that i dont want you to know what is. The reason i hold this back, is because I THINK that one should have the right motive for using this, and i am not sure if your motive is God's intention of this proof

Geez, man, my eternal soul could be at risk here. I'd read the Scripture, but it's too excruciatingly boring even from a purely academic standpoint.

My motive is simple, and common to humanity: I don't want to stop existing after I die. But I'm not willing to abandon my logic for eternal life. How's that for a candid motive?

quote: But i am confident that if God allows you to know it, then God is allowing you to use it.--- So "seek and ye shall find".

More circular logic; though you are certainly more of a sweet talker than Digital (that's a compliment). Seeking predisposes me to finding, or so to speak.

Also feel free to address my posts directed towards other posters (Digital).

With Sincere Devotion to His Own Means and Conscience,

deptstoremook

[This message has been edited by deptstoremook (edited 09-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And I said, "Yeah...I did. And so did every other Christian."

...and I said that you didn't. That you didn't prove something you didn't know. You BELIEVE. You THINK. But you didn't "prove" anything.

Hence, my reply.

quote:

Just because YOU haven't experienced it, Rust, doesn't mean it's not true. It means you haven't experienced it.

Sorry, but that's not how it works.

First of all, we're not talking about "true" we're talking about it being proven or not.

Second of all, you didn't "prove" anything. If you had, I could prove (I know you just love this example) that Jesus is an alien from the planet GORTOK-5.

Once again, you didn't prove anything.

quote:

Besides, I believe I was talking to HIM, not you.

This is a message board. If I see something I don't agree with, I'll reply to it. I saw something I didn't agree with, hence I replied to it.

Besides, as if you haven't done the same in your time in totse... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Are you siding with me, or what? It sounds like you are patronizing me, but I know all you Communists are godless (I learned this in school) too.

I'm siding with you baby... You know I love you.

Oh, and I hope you're patronizing me with that godless communists bit.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-25-2004).]

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?

Was it you?

Who me?

Yes you.

Couldn't be!

Then who?

Mook stole the cookies from the cookie jar/

Was it mook?

Who me?

Yes you.

Couldn't be!

Then who?

Digi stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

Was it digi?

Who me?

Yes you.

Couldn't be!

Then who?

Rust stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

Was it Rust?

Who me?

Yes you.

Couldn't be!

Then who?

Xtreme stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

Was it xtreme?

Who me?

Yes you.

Couldn't be!

Then who?

I guess it was Seaaaaaan!

*nibble nibble*

OE is my best friend.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Oh I know, excuse my semantic inaccuracy. there is no appology nessesary, therefore no excuse needed, i was just trying to be clear on terms.. in some ways, face to face would be easier (voice inflections, body language, etc.)



OK, I understand the belief. But let me give you a question to chew on (which I'm sure there's an answer for): assuming acceptance of Jesus does get us into Heaven, should we not still suffer for our sins?

I'm assuming that you are meaning "Will we be punished for our sins AFTER we get to Heaven?" I would say, "no". Jesus already paid our debt. Once we are saved, we are blameless. But God's Word does say that our rewards (in Heaven) are based on works.



I'm not sure I completely understand the concept of "sin"; I know there are mortal and other ones, but apparently the Blood of Jesus washes us entirely of sin: and I know the more progressive Christians believe Hell/Purgatory are temporary. Could you clear this up for me?

I get the sense that you are "setting me up", but that's ok, i'll play along.

In short, sin is anything that fails to meet God's standard of perfection. Failing to do what we should do, and doing what we should not do. It is a gap that keeps us from a complete relationship with God. (And also with people)(And also, with ourself)

Mortal sin/ Venial Sin are (i believe) a Roman Catholic teaching. Mortal Sin would be a willing sin (serious type) that would keep the soul from Divine Grace. Venial is the opposite because it is either a minor offense or it was done out of ignorance of the severity or without full consent of the will.

In my opinion there are only 2 Mortal Sins. 1.Dying before accepting God and His Gift of Grace

2.Blasphamy against the Holy Spirit

Other than that, Yes, Jesus paid the price. For those that accept Him.

Purgatory is another teaching of the Catholic Church that I dont totally agree with. But Hell is eternal, not temporary.

Well, OK, but you're not getting off that easily. We'll discuss those later.

That's fine and i'd be happy to. I only avoided those, because i'm sure you've noticed, i can be long winded and i have been called by friend's as "side-track johnny".

Geez, man, my eternal soul could be at risk here.

This is the reason that i responded in the 1st place (to anyones post). If i threw a lifeline to a drowning man, and he missed it, I wouldnt say, "o well, i tried", i'd throw it again and again until it either helped or was too late.

My motive is simple, and common to humanity: I don't want to stop existing after I die. But I'm not willing to abandon my logic for eternal life. How's that for a candid motive? The problem is not with you in this instance, but me. I think it is possible for me to do you more harm by giving you the answer.

quote: But i am confident that if God allows you to know it, then God is allowing you to use it.--- So "seek and ye shall find".

More circular logic; though you are certainly more of a sweet talker than Digital (that's a compliment). Seeking predisposes me to finding, or so to speak.

In light of my explaination of my motive for not giving you the answer, i hope that you dont see THIS as 'circular reasoning'.

As to "sweet talker", Digital has her way of teaching and arguing, and i have mine. In a few instances in TOTSE, i have been alittle more harsh than with this post. And often, i get started much worse, and tone it down, because i am trying to teach and learn, not trying to argue. Years ago, you would have seen many more smartass and mean comments. But that isnt productive to either of us. A very small glimmer was how i signed the last post as 'xwhatever' but i would have gone much more in to it.

"Seeking predisposes me to finding", This is another "trick". If God wants you to use this to get proof of Him, you will most certainly come across other things that He wants you to know first. I am leaving it in His (and your) hands to 'work' this out. And this is why i said i am confident.

Also feel free to address my posts directed towards other posters (Digital).

Of course. Why wouldnt i? But thank you for the offer.

With Sincere Devotion to His Own Means and Conscience,

deptstoremook /QUOTE

Kinda negates your statement of " How's that for a candid motive?" dont cha think?

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:



stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

Was it ?

Who me?

Yes you.

Couldn't be!

Then who?

I guess it was Seaaaaaan!

*nibble nibble*

OE is my best friend.

Sean? may i have a cookie, please? I'll share some milk. (Hebrews 5:12-13)

After that, maybe we might both be ready for meat (Hebrews 5:14)

digital, no response yet?

I think to better understand Christianity we must study it's Jewish foundations so permit me if you will to post this piece on Jewish belief in an afterlife from here. (http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_afterlife.htm)

The creation of man testifies to the eternal life of the soul. The Torah says, "And the Almighty formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the SOUL of life" (Genesis 2:7). On this verse, the Zohar states that "one who blows, blows from within himself," indicating that the soul is actually part of God's essence. Since God's essence is completely spiritual and non-physical, it is impossible that the soul should die. (The commentator Chizkuni says this why the verse calls it "soul of LIFE.")

That's what King Solomon meant when he wrote, "The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17)

For anyone who believes in a just and caring God, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (see Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith)

The question of "why do bad things happen to good people" has a lot to do with how we look at existence. The way we usually perceive things is like this: A "good life" means that I make a comfortable living, I enjoy good health, and then I die peacefully at age 80. That's a good life. Anything else is "bad."

In a limited sense, that's true. But if we have a soul and there is such a thing as eternity, then that changes the picture entirely. Eighty years in the face of eternity is not such a big deal.

From Judaism's perspective, our eternal soul is as real as our thumb. This is the world of doing, and the "world to come" is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we've become. Do you think after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions of people, that Hitler could really "end it all" by just swallowing some poison? No. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

But the concept goes much deeper. From an eternal view, if the ultimate pleasure we're going after is transcendence - the eternal relationship with the Almighty Himself, then who would be luckier: Someone who lives an easy life with little connection to God, or someone who is born handicapped, and despite the challenges, develops a connection with God. Who would be "luckier" in terms of eternal existence? All I'm trying to point out is that the rules of life start to look different from the point of view of eternity, as opposed to just the 70 or 80 years we have on earth.

So what is the afterlife exactly?

When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called "This is Your Life!" Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It's fully bared for all to see. That's why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - "the World of Truth," because there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.

The second video depicts how a person's life "could have been..." if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to God.

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example.

So what about "heaven?"

Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure - the feeling of closeness to God. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It's like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds - e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.

A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what's going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.

For further study, see Maimonides' Foundations of the Torah, "The Way of God" by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, and the commentary of Nachmanides to Leviticus 18:29.

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:

I think to better understand Christianity we must study it's Jewish foundations so

Thanks! that was enlightening.

Yeah here's how I have been told. You sin. You drink you sin. You idolise something you sin. You wank you sin. So any sin stops you from getting into heaven. The only way to get to heaven is to believe in god and Jesus, acknowledge your sins and seek forgiveness. So no matter how good you are if you don’t believe in God/Jesus you can’t get into heaven.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Oh, but that is where you are wrong: we have in logic a marvelous thesis known as the "burden of proof", which states, in so many words, that the skeptic is always correct: disbelief trumps belief, and the asserter must be the vilifier.

Hmmmm, couldnt that go on forever...i mean, in any debate, arent both sides skeptical of eachother...so burden of proof should lie on boths sides...i dont know though, never took a logic class

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Hmmmm, couldnt that go on forever...i mean, in any debate, arent both sides skeptical of eachother...so burden of proof should lie on boths sides...i dont know though, never took a logic class



It's not the skeptic or the believer, it's whoever makes a claim first. If you remain neutral (e.g. an agnostic, materialist...) then you do not have a burden of proof (at least not in that area) because you're not making an assertion either way (i.e. "God exists" or "God doesn't exists").

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It's not the skeptic or the believer, it's whoever makes a claim first. If you remain neutral (e.g. an agnostic, materialist...) then you do not have a burden of proof (at least not in that area) because you're not making an assertion either way (i.e. "God exists" or "God doesn't exists").



But are you neutral if you are participating in the debate?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



But are you neutral if you are participating in the debate?

Participating in the debate, how exactly?

By saying, "God doesn't(does) exist."? Then no.

By saying, "Please provide evidence/proof of that claim." or "Please answer this question."? Then yes.

quote:Originally posted by ParadoxOfIdentity:

Yeah here's how I have been told. You sin. You drink you sin. You idolise something you sin. You wank you sin. So any sin stops you from getting into heaven. The only way to get to heaven is to believe in god and Jesus, acknowledge your sins and seek forgiveness. So no matter how good you are if you don’t believe in God/Jesus you can’t get into heaven.

That sounds like Christianity to me.

By that logic the reverse should be true, no matter how horible you are if you do believe in God/Jesus you can get into heaven.

EDIT: Here is some propaganda that suports it.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0037/0037_01.asp

But aparently trick-or-treating is worse than murder so in Jack Chick's books so lets hope he realy is just crazy.

[This message has been edited by MasterPython (edited 09-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

dig, you didn't respond to my post.

Can I ask why you are asking? I'm guessing that you are setting Digital up for a "trap", but i'm not sure. If Digital is seeing the samething that i think i might see, she may be avoiding it.

There was another post that hinted about what i think might be your motive, but i'm too lazy to check the dates of your post vs. that particular one.

I have been patient, allowing Digital to answer, before i stated, because i'm curious too, as to how she might reply, and to see if i did see what i think i see.

Obscur, i know. But if you understand me, then i was probably right. If you dont understand me, then i am more of an "old, dotty fool" than i thought.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Participating in the debate, how exactly?

By saying, "God doesn't(does) exist."? Then no.

By saying, "Please provide evidence/proof of that claim." or "Please answer this question."? Then yes.



Sorry, by participating, i meant actually debating. But thanks.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Can I ask why you are asking? I'm guessing that you are setting Digital up for a "trap", but i'm not sure. If Digital is seeing the samething that i think i might see, she may be avoiding it.

There was another post that hinted about what i think might be your motive, but i'm too lazy to check the dates of your post vs. that particular one.

I have been patient, allowing Digital to answer, before i stated, because i'm curious too, as to how she might reply, and to see if i did see what i think i see.

Obscur, i know. But if you understand me, then i was probably right. If you dont understand me, then i am more of an "old, dotty fool" than i thought.

in all honesty, xtreem, (and i hope you believe that i respect you enough to not try and 'dupe' you), i have no future point or rebuttal or anything in mind... i don't know what you're seeing/talking about.

i was and am curious how digital will explain her stance that she has personal 'proof,' when she later claimed that seeking proof is anathema to faith.

re-read the posts. i'm not setting up a trap. as far as i'm concerned, digital did that herself when she embellished her faith as 'proof' for the purpose of selling it to others less 'chosen'.

my original question in this thread was 'is it wrong to test god?' i was genuinely curious because the word 'proof' comes from the latin 'probare', which means to test for accuracy. i don't think most people understand the nuances of what proof really means, since modern usage equates it with 'incontrovertible,' which is not its clearest definition.

essentially, proof is faith, except more precise, so 'where's the need for jesus?', is my point.

[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 09-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It's not the skeptic or the believer, it's whoever makes a claim first. If you remain neutral (e.g. an agnostic, materialist...) then you do not have a burden of proof (at least not in that area) because you're not making an assertion either way (i.e. "God exists" or "God doesn't exists").

I suppose you consider yourself neutral, then ?

By taking no sides, you show yourself to be a coward.

If you aren't, stand for something !

I don't find you to be neutral, Rust. I think "antagonistic" would suit you more appropriately.

You ride the fence, because it is easiest, Essentially, you believe that this keeps you safe from err, since you believe not one way, or the other.

But it shows nothing but a lack of conviction.

You never "make a claim", so you never have to provide any proof, by your definition. How EASY and SAFE is that ?!

You just get to sit around, picking the bones of everyone ELSE who does have a belief either way, though I have yet to see you attack an evolutionist. It seems your "middle-of-the-road" mentality spares those of the non-Christian flavor. (that's based on what I have observed from you, thus far)

I may not always be right, or even logical in my beliefs (God cannot be logically explained with human rules and perceptions), but I sure as hell stick by them !

Argh, I do the same shit as Rust.

Devils Advocate is just much more fun for me to play.

Sorry, Eil...I haven't been around for a few days. Wasn't ignoring you. If you check out the other threads, you will see the lack of my presence there as well.

I will get to it, but not for a while.

I am going into surgery tomorrow, and will be off my feet for almost a week.

Those of you that pray, throw some my way. It would be greatly appreciated.

For those of you that don't...patience. I will return soon.



GOD BLESS.

quote:Originally posted by SuperCracker:

First off everyone is looking at this whole thing wrong. You can't use logic to prove or disprove a "belief". Besides, most of us don't even remember yesterday clearly, how can anyone expect to get the full story on what happened over 2000 years ago.

So that doesn't leave you with much does it. What "proof" is there of the Christian God? Well you have a book, some crusty scrolls, maybe a few fossils (to help support what was written in the book) and a few million believers who don't really agree on any of the details. Not to mention a sophisticated political system that effects nearly the entire world on a daily basis.

Is that enough? Well for some of us yes, for the rest, not really. The sad thing is, if your looking for answers your really not going to find any. If anything you can always look into buddhism...

The Reverend SuperCracker (http://www.openordination.com)

Proof ? Well, some would consider what is written in the following link to be substantial proof: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_saladin/saladin-gish2/gish1.html

Get the entire debate HERE (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_saladin/saladin-gish2/index.shtml).

She has some amazing points, and I'll admit, I wish I had thought of a few of them.

They're not PROFOUND, they are so simple that the analytical mind often misses them. (I am guilty of this frequently)

And the answers are out there, for those that seek outside themselves. Surely, as a self-professed Buddhist (??), you can appreciate that approach.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

*cracks knuckles* - Digital, this is all for you, babe. I respect your beliefs but I won't hesitate to take as many cracks at them as possible.

Oh well of course I want to believe in God, Jesus, heaven, et cetera: who wouldn't want an eternal after-life where the bad are punished, and the good are rewarded, and the dead are re-united? I would, chalk me down for full support of that idea.

My only excuse for not believing is that I'm a logical person, and I am unable to believe things that have not been adequately proven to me in an objective manner. Predilection towards belief and biased texts are not objective.





Well, that's the end of my "response" debate. I have an idea I've been throwing around a lot, lately, and I'm going to elucidate upon it.

You are, obviously, convinced of the utter truth of your convictions. You underwent an experience, or set of experiences, which led you to this state.

I have a set of convictions as well: they are different from yours, perhaps, but they are mine: since, as I said, I am a logical thinker, I do not accept anything without reasonable proof: I have undergone experiences in my life which lead me to hold these convictions above all others.

Since, then, the strength of my experiences must be roughly equal to those of yours (because we hold our convictions to the same magnitude), how can you tell me yours are "more true" (which is what you have done)? We have here a duel of wills, with both wills being equal.

If God exists, then surely He must have intended for me to undergo experiences such that I believe what I do: logical disbelief in Him. Therefore, is it not paradoxical for God to punish me for my convictions which are, if you believe in the doctrine of cause and effect, a result of His creation of the universe?

All I can say at this point (utter exhaustion) is that He is MUCH smarter than you are, Mook...as logical as you are.

And in His infinite wisdom, He knows what your outcome will be. He knows what it will take to draw you closer to Him.

He also knows what moves you, what makes you tick, and when the time is right, He will stir you. (if you remain open to the possibility. He MAKES no one accept Him.)

And those past experiences that you believe have proven to you that there IS no God will teach you quite a different lesson.

I look back on the things that I did not understand, and even HATED, and say, "Aha !"

Anyway, going to bed now. I will give this an HONEST shot when I recover from surgery.

Thanks for the post. Contrary to popular belief, I do like to have objective, honest conversations about faith.

You just laid it out for me for the first time, and now I have more to work with.

Until then, friend...



GOD BLESS.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

(Arms, hope you don't mind me responding for you)

From his own experiences (spiritual and otherwise) which are of equal intensity to those you have experienced.

No, he is claiming that the BIBLE is the source of Christianity's myths, not my personal experience.

I was asking for references that were more believable or provable than my own. Meaning, I have the Bible, and he has....what ?

You misinterpretted.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Are you siding with me, or what? It sounds like you are patronizing me, but I know all you Communists are godless (I learned this in school) too.

He was actually patronizing ME.

As usual.



Alexan (me) = Brunt of Rust's animosity towards people of FAITH.

Mook, you want me to sweet talk you now ?

So much for LOGIC !

I think you meant that I am not as eloquent as he/she is, though I would tend to disagree.

I haven't really spent too much time on you, yet.

I won't play word games, or tease you with hidden scriptures that MAY help you understand things.

I am also not going to sugar coat things. As you said, your soul is at risk. Why dance around the issues ? Jesus didn't. He was uncut, and pissed everyone off because of his brutal honesty. I am that way by nature, but that is how I believe God desires us to be.

Anyway...thanks for the jab. *sighs*

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

This is a message board. If I see something I don't agree with, I'll reply to it. I saw something I didn't agree with, hence I replied to it.

Besides, as if you haven't done the same in your time in totse... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-25-2004).]



No, I haven't done the same EXCLUSIVELY to one person.

It IS an open debate, except you turn it into a closed debate between you and me.

My time is better spent elsewhere. You have been monopolizing it for long enough.

And yes, I DID prove it. To ME. Actually, I let GOD prove Himself to me, by believing that He could.

If He didn't exist, I would have lost nothing except a few moments of my sanity (talking to myself !). *laughs*

Since He was real, I heard His call, and have been following Him ever since.

I sought the answers to the questions I had which prevented me from believing in Him. When I found those answers, I had the proof that I needed to open my heart to Him.

And that is when He proved Himself to ME. (this is not an exclusive experience. I am sure you will hear it told similarly by other Christians)

I think it is presumptuous of you to assume that you KNOW what I have or have not proven to myself.

To think outside of space and time and self is NO easy task. But I managed it, and I proved what I needed to in order to believe.

And I have to tell ya...Jesus isn't from Garthok-5.

.

.

.

.

.



He's from Mojo-7.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Argh, I do the same shit as Rust.

Devils Advocate is just much more fun for me to play.

But it's annoying to those of us that are taking this a bit more seriously.

Can you see it that way ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I suppose you consider yourself neutral, then ?

Yes.



quote:

By taking no sides, you show yourself to be a coward.

1. Calling someone a coward is not something a Christian should do.

2. I show myself to be basing myself on factual data, not on pathetic beliefs centered on even more pathetic dogma.

quote:

I don't find you to be neutral, Rust. I think "antagonistic" would suit you more appropriately.

I'm neutral towards the claim. Everything else is irrelevant, at least to this argument, more specifically, to my usage of the word "neutral".

In any case since we're exchanging pleasantries, I think "egotistically evasive" suits you just fine.

quote:

You ride the fence, because it is easiest, Essentially, you believe that this keeps you safe from err, since you believe not one way, or the other.

If you call myself basing my arguments on scientific data, "aasy", then so be it.

I, on the other hand, call making bullshit claims with no evidence, "Easy".

quote:

But it shows nothing but a lack of conviction.

Apparently you don't know the meaning of that word.

It actually shows my conviction to materialism.

quote:

You never "make a claim", so you never have to provide any proof, by your definition. How EASY and SAFE is that ?!

You just get to sit around, picking the bones of everyone ELSE who does have a belief either way, though I have yet to see you attack an evolutionist. It seems your "middle-of-the-road" mentality spares those of the non-Christian flavor. (that's based on what I have observed from you, thus far)

Sorry, but what you call "middle of the road" is actually basing myself on all the Scientific data I can.

Any moron can play the, "lets make outrageous claims" game.

quote:

I may not always be right, or even logical in my beliefs (God cannot be logically explained with human rules and perceptions), but I sure as hell stick by them !

And I don't? Care to show me where I haven't?

Somehow, once again, for the thousandth time... I know you wont back up your claim.

I may not always be friendly, but I sure as hell can back my bullshit up. Something nobody here can say of you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



No, I haven't done the same EXCLUSIVELY to one person.

So? That's irrelevant, since you said:

"Besides, I believe I was talking to HIM, not you."

I was saying, that I answered because I saw something I didn't agree with.

But in anycase, I already have answered this as well. I respond more to you, because you are the pinnacle anti-thesis to materialism.

Not even xtreem, another Christian, is so "allergic to reason" as you are. Therefore, my posts reflect this, since I reply to things I do not agree with.

quote:

It IS an open debate, except you turn it into a closed debate between you and me.

How? Anyone else can come along and post. For me to be "turning into a closed debate" would mean that I'm somehow denying others the ability to post. I'm not.

quote:

And yes, I DID prove it. To ME. Actually, I let GOD prove Himself to me, by believing that He could.

Sorry but no. That's not proving anything. That's you believing something.

Proven: "To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence."

You have not offered any evidence or argument, hence you have not proven anything. At best, what you have is a belief, nothing else.

quote:

I think it is presumptuous of you to assume that you KNOW what I have or have not proven to myself.

See above. Since you have not presented any evidence, then you have not proven anything.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sorry, Eil...I haven't been around for a few days. Wasn't ignoring you. If you check out the other threads, you will see the lack of my presence there as well.

I will get to it, but not for a while.

I am going into surgery tomorrow, and will be off my feet for almost a week.

Those of you that pray, throw some my way. It would be greatly appreciated.

For those of you that don't...patience. I will return soon.



GOD BLESS.

is it serious? i hope all turns out well.

Eil: Well, yes and no. I have endometriosis, which is EXTREMELY painful. It isn't "terminal" or anything, but it CAN get worse and cause a whole slew of other problems. (cysts, blockage, etc.)



I just returned home. It was actually not as bad as I had anticipated.

What I had done is called a "laparoscopy". The endometriosis was cauterized, but the doc also found "adenomyosis" while she was in there, which is most likely what was causing all the pain, since she only found two ITSY BITSY TEENY TINY little specks of endo.

So, now they want to put me on Lupron, which will make me go into menopause (I am only 25 !!). I don't like that option. I just want a hysterectomy.

But anyway, I am sure that is too much info, true to my character. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I am going to go lay down now...I was just starting to get bored, so I thought I would check the forum out.

Thanks for asking...sweet of you.

God bless.

there's no reason to apologize, thanks for sharing.

do you have children?

How can you trust the bible when its published jews? The descendents of the pharisies are the ones that probaly translated the bible wrong. *goes off to learn armenian.* Look at most of the church nowdays. Jews are in churches, "rabbi in residence", racemixing is common. And yes stallin killed way more people than hitler. 200k jews max for hitler vs. 20 million white christians.

Btw the bible is aginst race-mixing, read ezra 10:18 if you dont believe me.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

That sounds like Christianity to me.

By that logic the reverse should be true, no matter how horible you are if you do believe in God/Jesus you can get into heaven.



yep, you're right

QUOTE Originally posted by Eil:

in all honesty, xtreem, (and i hope you believe that i respect you enough to not try and 'dupe' you), i have no future point or rebuttal or anything in mind... i don't know what you're seeing/talking about.

thank you. and i respect you also. But we both see things from different sides of the coin, so by "trap", i didnt mean "dupe", but i meant "trap" simply as a way that i thought you might use to point out what you might feel as a flaw in what had been posted by a Christian. I know i'm still being vague, and i prefer this to be that way. I'm glad that you dont know what i'm seeing/talking about. Right now it's better that way, please trust me on this.

i was and am curious how digital will explain her stance that she has personal 'proof,' when she later claimed that seeking proof is anathema to faith.

I dont recall what she said, but was it as strong as a curse to faith? I would think more a hinderance, or obstacle (with which i would agree) than a curse... I guess i'll have to wait for Digital's response.

essentially, proof is faith, except more precise, so 'where's the need for jesus?', is my point.

if proof is faith, and faith believes that God said that we have all sinned, and believes that God also said that He would send the Messiah to save us...And in faith we believe that Jesus is the Messiah, then the "need for Jesus" is "the need for salvation".

Basically, the NEED for Messiah is the God given LOOPHOLE. And again, basically, the LAW is to show the need for the NEED.

And again, sorry for being vague or implying that your motives were less than honorable. if i had been right, then it was really a warning to Digital. And being wrong is... well, being wrong.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

I dont recall what she said, but was it as strong as a curse to faith? I would think more a hinderance, or obstacle (with which i would agree) than a curse... I guess i'll have to wait for Digital's response.



her exact words were

It is NOT okay to say, "God, show yourself to me, or perform a miracle for my sake, so that I may be convinced of your existence."

If this were permissable, then there would be no need for faith, and Jesus' death would have been in vain.

so she condemns conviction in god's existence, while simultaneously claiming to possess such conviction. and i think you again misunderstand the meaning of proof, xtreem.

except for in mathematics, proof is faith in a theory that has been tested. the stronger, more thorough, more precise, and more controlled the tests, the stronger the proof. there are many different degrees and types of what people consider proof. some are more akin to speculation, others are severely flawed and simplistic, and some are safe to consider absolute.

there is no solid proof that we are sinners. there is no solid proof that we are either doomed to hell or chosen for salvation. in fact, there's no solid proof that there IS a heaven or a hell.

remember, my point is that 'proof = faith', which is completely in agreement and consistent with what you and digital claimed to begin with:

dig - He is easily proven real when one accepts Him as God, His son as redeemer, and reads His Holy word. (He is revealed in many ways among the pages of the Bible... I proved something I didn't know. I went and found out.

you - You want proof? He gave proof. Our conscience, creation, and the Bible. Let's focus on the Bible and set the others aside.

that's the contradicting argument i want to see addressed.

one more example of this circular logic:

dig - It's silly. Just take that simple step of faith, and it WILL be proven.



[This message has been edited by Eil (edited 10-01-2004).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Eil:

her exact words were

It is NOT okay to say, "God, show yourself to me, or perform a miracle for my sake, so that I may be convinced of your existence."

If this were permissable, then there would be no need for faith, and Jesus' death would have been in vain.

so she condemns conviction in god's existence, while simultaneously claiming to possess such conviction. and i think you again misunderstand the meaning of proof, xtreem.

actually, i did misunderstand before your post, until you explained.

I disagree that belief in Jesus would be in vain, based on what Digital wrote. I think that what she was trying to point out, is if WE ask God for "proof" (the type that you mean as mathimatical), then, if we sin, we have lost our chance at the LOOP-HOLE... I think it was you that pointed out that the bible makes some provisions for not knowing. So wouldnt absolute "proof" be the exact opposite of not knowing.

I also slightly disagree with faith = proof, in reguards to what she said (since mathmatical proof is different from "proof" of a theory).

In the first part of her statement, i think she was meaning proof to be likened to "mathimatical proof". But the second part she seems to use the word 'faith' to be likened to your "faith = proof of a theory"... boy, that "Tower of Babel problem" can give a fella a headache.

____________________________________________





you - You want proof? He gave proof. Our conscience, creation, and the Bible. Let's focus on the Bible and set the others aside.

that's the contradicting argument i want to see addressed.

Well, we were refering to the same thing. I still may have been wrong on your motives though.

And if you are as smart as i think you are, then "trap" was definitly the wrong word.

thinking to self...<<But i kinda doubt that you were in a sense, trying to help me. But maybe you were trying to help someone else...hmmm. Possibly both? Maybe impatient? ... I LIKE TATERTOTS...giter done >>

And happily, Digital saw it too. She vaguely referred to it.... Thanks Digital, and sorry that i didnt give you enough credit http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

one more example of this circular logic:

dig - It's silly. Just take that simple step of faith, and it WILL be proven.

it's only circular from a non-experienced point of view. When you've experienced that proof (math type), then it is completely linear.

But how does someone explain it better. Bikers have a saying: "if i have to explain, you wont understand it".

It has to be experienced to be understood.

Although, to me, it wasnt a SIMPLE step. It is an ongoing growth. And at times, the "growing pains" are huge. Maybe someday i will have faith as big as a mustard seed, but i do like where God has put the mountains.

edited to put ending to bolding tab

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 10-01-2004).]

[/B][/QUOTE] I have a set of convictions as well: they are different from yours, perhaps, but they are mine: since, as I said, I am a logical thinker, I do not accept anything without reasonable proof: I have undergone experiences in my life which lead me to hold these convictions above all others.

Since, then, the strength of my experiences must be roughly equal to those of yours (because we hold our convictions to the same magnitude), how can you tell me yours are "more true" (which is what you have done)? We have here a duel of wills, with both wills being equal.

If God exists, then surely He must have intended for me to undergo experiences such that I believe what I do: logical disbelief in Him. Therefore, is it not paradoxical for God to punish me for my convictions which are, if you believe in the doctrine of cause and effect, a result of His creation of the universe? [/B][/QUOTE]

There is a fine line between knowing the future, and controlling it. God is beyond our logic, bcause he created the logic and reason with wich we live our lives. I guess that's where true faith comes in: if you truly belive in God, then you will believe in him regardless of any restrictions this existance will try to impose on you.

You see guys, I think you guys are missing something. Perhaps you believe that God didn't provide enough evidence but you're a man that needs physical proof. Now, here's the loop, if God gave you physical proof, that would take away the idea of faith in Him wouldn't it? God REQUIRES you to have faith in him.

I think I've made my point but I am currently delerious from lack of sleep. Gnite.

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

How can you trust the bible when its published jews? The descendents of the pharisies are the ones that probaly translated the bible wrong. *goes off to learn armenian.* Look at most of the church nowdays. Jews are in churches, "rabbi in residence", racemixing is common. And yes stallin killed way more people than hitler. 200k jews max for hitler vs. 20 million white christians.

Btw the bible is aginst race-mixing, read ezra 10:18 if you dont believe me.

Wow..hands down, you win the "Ignorance of the Century" award.

And that's all I am gonna give you...

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

there's no reason to apologize, thanks for sharing.

do you have children?

Yes, I have three.

A 5 year old, an almost 4 year old, and 9 month old.

So, I don't have to worry about wanting more children, in regards to the hysterectomy.

I'm done with kiddies ! *lol*

Anyway, I am working on a reply to you, though after reading the conversation between you and Xtreem, I am not sure I even need to anymore. (??)

Ask me again, more clearly (if there is actually something that wasn't covered by Xtreem).

I got lost there towards the end...Xtreem was thanking me for something, and I haven't the foggiest what it was for !

So...please be kind, and just start over, so I can address your question directly.

Thanks, and God bless.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-03-2004).]

XTREEM - Sorry hon...still drugged up. What are you thanking me for again ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by micho:

if God gave you physical proof, that would take away the idea of faith in Him wouldn't it? God REQUIRES you to have faith in him.



The Babelfish argument.

I like that because it means all those creationists are disproving themselves by pointing out how only God could have done this.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Wow..hands down, you win the "Ignorance of the Century" award.

And that's all I am gonna give you...

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)



and you didnt read it...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

XTREEM - Sorry hon...still drugged up. What are you thanking me for again ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I was thanking you for leaving it in the realm of the vague.

quote:I won't play word games, or tease you with hidden scriptures that MAY help you understand things.

i think i only used one piece of scripture that i left hidden. But i wasnt refering to it for the sake of a tease. It was left vague simply because i think it is dangerous for them to have this kind of proof, without growth in faith first. (I think it was Eil that pointed out that the bible makes some provisions for those who have not been exposed to God's Word...Faith is better (safer?) than absolute proof, it leaves the "LOOP-HOLE" bigger).

And really, i'm not trying to play word games. Just trying to help them to discover God for themselves. I've said before that "no human can convert, it is between God and the individual" AND "i am just a sower and a serf".

Thank you again, Digital. God Bless you. And i hope you feel better http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Yes, I have three.

A 5 year old, an almost 4 year old, and 9 month old.

So, I don't have to worry about wanting more children, in regards to the hysterectomy.

I'm done with kiddies ! *lol*

Anyway, I am working on a reply to you, though after reading the conversation between you and Xtreem, I am not sure I even need to anymore. (??)

Ask me again, more clearly (if there is actually something that wasn't covered by Xtreem).

I got lost there towards the end...Xtreem was thanking me for something, and I haven't the foggiest what it was for !

So...please be kind, and just start over, so I can address your question directly.

Thanks, and God bless.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-03-2004).]

yeah, real quick and simple - how do you defend your notion of personal proof in christ, while simultaneously claiming that proof of god's existence erases the need for faith?

are you, or are you not convinced of god's existence?

btw, just so that you don't think i'm a sheisty bastard, that^ is a logical trap i'm trying to catch you with.

although i've never had to admit that beforehand in a debate... pointing out inconsistencies is kind of the point of discussing differing ideas. but i guess we're taking a page from the presidential debates here, so that there are no 'surprises'.

No reply yet digital? I think we have some p3n3ag3...

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

I already made a topic relating to this, but it's dead now, so here's the exchange, heavily truncated.

Me: I'm not christian but if I'm good can I get into heaven anyway?

Them: Nil. Gotta accept Jesus.

Me: I don't get it. Want proof.

Them: Bible.

Me: Bible has preconception of truth. Need other.

Them: All around you.

Me: Nil. Something concrete.

Them: You don't want to accept it. Have an open mind.

Me: Self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is where the topic died, I think.

Now I'm going to work on the presumption of my knowledge of a Christian God, here's what I will be using so tell me if I'm wrong:

God gives the gift of volition for life, takes it away at death. If you don't accept God (&Jesus?) you go to purgatory/limbo (for Dante fans), or Hell if you're "bad". Good and Bad are notions as exist in the bible, Ten Commandments and the flurry of myriad rules.

So I'm going to address several things here. Reply however you want, just no flames. And please keep it reasonably short, nobody likes 2 page replies.

Firstly, let's say God does exist, and there's a Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. What I gleaned from the last topic is that I'm not getting into that Great Gig in the Sky unless I accept Christianity. This totally doesn't fly with me, as was touched upon in the exchange above. If I'm a "good person" (I live according to my conscience), why will I be faulted for that?

God provides me no objective evidence of his existence, praying instead my faith. Since I was not raised Christian, but rather agnostic, I was raised to believe, more or less, to live by my morals (instilled in me by my parents and society). If that's how I was raised, and that is what I am most sure is correct, why will God fault me for living my life how I feel is correct? Unless God can provide me objective proof of his truth (not the Bible, remember), how can I in good conscience believe it?

And nextly, this is less personal: I want to know what happened to all the people before Jesus (or before Joseph Smith, Mohammed, or whoever your principal Christian prophet is)? Are they just screwed? Dante said they went to limbo, but he was a crazy 14th century Catholic.

I'm sure you can see a pattern with my thoughts about religion, and it centers on proof. I want to further the discussion (was it you, Digital_Savior, who was the principal replier to my posts?), so again refer to the summary atop this post to avoid redundancy.

if youre really not christian then you shouldnt care what a christian god would think, if you believe in somekind of higher being then you probably have your own ideas about how to get into heaven and that should be all that matters. if youre really that worried about jesus and god and whether theyll accept you, it sounds like theres some belief goin on there and you just dont want to admit it for some reason.

let me just say that this is the first time i've ever read a thread in this forum and you all are the most literate people on totse.

ill contribute my two cents later.

found your forum, did you? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

yeah, this corner of totse is pretty cool. i've developed a lot of respect for the regulars, even though we disagree often.

mad scientists has some amazingly smart people, but they seem so focused on their respective spheres of knowledge that it often prohibits a smooth flow to the conversation, and can make an otherwise interesting topic dull and messy.

woot... a marathon reference!

hey digital, you never replied to my question

how'd the surgery turn out, btw? glad to see you're back, seemed like you were gone for a while

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

yeah, real quick and simple - how do you defend your notion of personal proof in christ, while simultaneously claiming that proof of god's existence erases the need for faith?

are you, or are you not convinced of god's existence?

Okey dokey. That clarifies it perfectly.

As Xtreem pointed out, I am talking about two different kinds of "proof".

He hit the nail on the head.

Do I need to explain further ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 10-18-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

No reply yet digital? I think we have some p3n3ag3...

I HAD SURGERY !

Don't you people read other threads besides the ones you post in ?! *sighs*

What would you like me to reply ?

That you are a racist when it comes to Jews ?

Yes, Eil...gone for too long ! *lol*

The surgery went very well. Removed two teeny tiny little spots of endometriosis (I couldn't believe that's all that was there, with all the pain I was having).

Now, we wait.

If it doesn't come back, then I am good to go.

If it does, I am in for a hysterectomy.

They want to put me into menopause prematurely, but I am only 25, and I am totally against that.

I would kill my family, and lose my job. Not worth it. *laughs*

Anyway, too much info. Suffice it to say I am currently without pain for the first time in over a decade ! *yay*

I will try to be more diligent in my responses and how long it takes me to post them.

Just to give you a heads up, I work for a hospital, supporting their network, and we just got SLAMMED with virus attacks yesterday. So, we're combatting that, as well as getting ready to transition our network from the old environment to a completely new one.

From what I can tell, it is entirely "untested", so we are going to have our hands full.

The reason I am telling you all this is because I might not be available for the next few weeks.

Long hours, and no personal time can make for a very tired Alex (moi).

Thanks again for asking.

It's nice to see that even though we don't agree on much if anything, we can be civil to one another.

Many here on Totse could learn a valuable lesson from our exchange.

God bless.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

God bless.

Good to see you back, Digital. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Hope things work out for you!! (you job and recovery)

God Bless you, too.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Okey dokey. That clarifies it perfectly.

As Xtreem pointed out, I am talking about two different kinds of "proof".

He hit the nail on the head.

Do I need to explain firther ?

that's strange because i have proof that your beliefs are wrong. i admit, it's not the first kind, it's the second kind, but nevertheless, you shouldn't believe the way you do... if you want proof as to why, i can't tell you, you must seek it.

I am talking about the difference between tangible, physical proof, and the kind of proof that can only be experienced.

I can't describe spiritual proof, because it is not measurable.

I believe the way I do because that proof has been given to me, because I asked it to be.

I asked God to dwell in me, so He did.

As someone who was deeply involved in spirituality (of the occult) prior to my conversion to Christianity, I was the first to notice spiritual warfare when it occurred.

I knew there was a battle being waged for my soul...I could feel it, and at times, I could "see" it.

Of course, not many can say that, so perhaps my words are falling on deaf ears here. Who cares what MY experience was in regards to YOUR salvation ?

Except the powerful nature of my conversion will be with me for the rest of my days, and it was real, to the point that I will never doubt that it happened, nor the origin from whence it came.

And I won't be selfish and not tell others about it, in hopes that they will experience the same thing, and stand beside me in heaven one day.

But again, it is simply not something that can be described.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Good to see you back, Digital. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Hope things work out for you!! (you job and recovery)

God Bless you, too.



Thanks ! You're a doll...

Good to be back.

Been holdin up the fort while I've been out, I see. *lol*

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I am talking about the difference between tangible, physical proof, and the kind of proof that can only be experienced.

I can't describe spiritual proof, because it is not measurable.

I believe the way I do because that proof has been given to me, because I asked it to be.

I asked God to dwell in me, so He did.

As someone who was deeply involved in spirituality (of the occult) prior to my conversion to Christianity, I was the first to notice spiritual warfare when it occurred.

I knew there was a battle being waged for my soul...I could feel it, and at times, I could "see" it.

Of course, not many can say that, so perhaps my words are falling on deaf ears here. Who cares what MY experience was in regards to YOUR salvation ?

Except the powerful nature of my conversion will be with me for the rest of my days, and it was real, to the point that I will never doubt that it happened, nor the origin from whence it came.

And I won't be selfish and not tell others about it, in hopes that they will experience the same thing, and stand beside me in heaven one day.

But again, it is simply not something that can be described.

circular

It's not circular to someone looking at it from the Faith perspective, and not from the Logic perspective.

Circular - Using a premise to prove a conclusion that in turn is used to prove the premise: a circular argument.

That is not what I did.

If you can believe in "nothing" (evolution), then why can't you believe in "something" (God) ?

It makes less sense to believe in the fairy tale of evolution, based on half-truths, paltry evidence, and speculations, than it is to believe in a God that has demonstrated His perfection through His people and the teachings of the Bible.

Use FAITH to prove God, not LOGIC.

Believe me, I know how you see this. I was there once, remember ?

I didn't just fall off my Pagan Stool one day, and rise up with a Christian Concussion. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

It is to look at the whole thing as you never have before, and to do that requires you to think in a way you never have.

Again, it cannot be explained.

But I didn't do it alone. I asked Him to show me His truth, and His plan for me...

Though I did not get a DIRECT answer about His plan (He wants to torture me with anticipation), I was shown His truth, and my life has changed in ways that could not have been accomplished if it had been orchestrated by me.

Looking back, I see His hand in everything that has happened to me (good or bad), and all of it was for a higher purpose.

I could tell you the story of how I met my husband, and how unlikely it was that our paths crossed, but that would be for an outside discussion. If you'd like to take it to a chat program (AIM or Yahoo! is what I have) then I would be happy to share that story, and others with you, if you'd like.

So, I am taking it you didn't find my response satisfactory, especially after how long you patiently waited for it ! *laughs*

Sorry, doll.

quote:It's not circular to someone looking at it from the Faith perspective, and not from the Logic perspective.

Circular - Using a premise to prove a conclusion that in turn is used to prove the premise: a circular argument.

You're right, it isn't circular reasoning per se, it's just plain old fallicious arguing.

You want us to use faith... but then that can't be explained! How wonderful.

The same thing could be said by a Devil worshiper!

quote:It makes less sense to believe in the fairy tale of evolution, based on half-truths, paltry evidence, and speculations, than it is to believe in a God that has demonstrated His perfection through His people and the teachings of the Bible.[/b]

Fairy tale? Half-Truths? This coming from someone who claims to base herself on evidence? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Care to show us where what you claim is the case?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

You're right, it isn't circular reasoning per se, it's just plain old fallicious arguing.

You want us to use faith... but then that can't be explained! How wonderful.

The same thing could be said by a Devil worshiper!

You know very well what faith "means". What can't be described is the actual experience of it. Don't play dumb...it doesn't suit you.

Devil worshipper's experience the same kind of spirituality, just in a different flavor, so I guess it wouldn't be so far fetched to say that they wouldn't be able to explain the experience, either.

You could say "I had a feeling", but that would not adequately describe it.

"I was overwhelmed with the [holy] spirit." How do you explain that ?

quote:Fairy tale? Half-Truths? This coming from someone who claims to base herself on evidence?

Care to show us where what you claim is the case?

I do base my beliefs on evidence.

Evidence that escapes those who don't want to believe in God (not that the evidence isn't there for them as well, they just look around it).

"Where what I claim is the case ?"

Not sure exactly what you are referring to, but in all things regarding answers about God, I would tell you the Bible.

Which I KNOW you haven't read, so I don't see how you can say that it cannot be considered "evidence" of God's existence.

You may have read parts of it, but it is obvious you haven't read all of it, based on your ideas on what Christians are, and what they ought to be like.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You know very well what faith "means". What can't be described is the actual experience of it. Don't play dumb...it doesn't suit you.

Devil worshipper's experience the same kind of spirituality, just in a different flavor, so I guess it wouldn't be so far fetched to say that they wouldn't be able to explain the experience, either.

You could say "I had a feeling", but that would not adequately describe it.

"I was overwhelmed with the [holy] spirit." How do you explain that ?

I'm not playing dumb. It's a crappy argument. You want us to believe you, or agree with you, or whatever, by saying that "you have a feeeling"... So what?

I have a feeling you're wrong... I just can't describe it!

quote:

I do base my beliefs on evidence.

Evidence that escapes those who don't want to believe in God (not that the evidence isn't there for them as well, they just look around it).

Evidence, which you have yet to cite, despite my numerous petitions.

quote:

Not sure exactly what you are referring to, but in all things regarding answers about God, I would tell you the Bible.

I meant, an example of the "half-truths" in evolution.

quote:

Which I KNOW you haven't read, so I don't see how you can say that it cannot be considered "evidence" of God's existence.

You may have read parts of it, but it is obvious you haven't read all of it, based on your ideas on what Christians are, and what they ought to be like.

Says the person which does not provide a bibilical quote of what it means to be a Christian?

*laughs*

Oh, Rust...

What am I gonna do with you ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

no, your reasoning IS circular.

you claim others are wrong for not believing in your god. when they ask you why, you claim that you cannot explain it, they simply must believe in your fashion to understand it. when they say that they don't, can't, and never will without logical consistency, you then conclude that this is why they are wrong and can not understand your proof.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

*laughs*

Oh, Rust...

What am I gonna do with you ?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

How about taking me as a test from god, thus giving you the duty to answer everything I ask?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

How about taking me as a test from god

We have.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

How about taking me as a test from god, thus giving you the duty to answer everything I ask?

Love is the lacking factor, in that hypothetical scenario.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

We have.



HAHAHAHAHAHA !

God bless you, Xtreem.

Your sense of humor kicks in at exactly the right moment, without fail.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

no, your reasoning IS circular.

you claim others are wrong for not believing in your god. when they ask you why, you claim that you cannot explain it, they simply must believe in your fashion to understand it. when they say that they don't, can't, and never will without logical consistency, you then conclude that this is why they are wrong and can not understand your proof.



I don't claim others are wrong for not believeing in God. I believe they are lost, just as I was. They simply need to find the truth.

I didn't say that I couldn't explain WHY, I said I couldn't explain WHAT.

How can I explain God (what He is made of, what His plans for the universe are, etc.), or the feelings He gives us ? Not possible.

I can explain Christianity, and God's purpose for us...I can explain His love, and His sacrifice. But that's not what you asked me.

Logical consistency is provided in the pages of the Bible. If you have not read it, than an integral part of your disbelief in God remains unfounded.

I have never concluded that the reason people don't believe in God is because they can't give up logic. I have said it is EASIER to find Him if you can set aside logic.

When you stop asking the "why", and start asking "who", the answers will come to you.

That's not circular, that's God.

<sigh> http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

My only question is this:

Is God all-loving?

-Red Raven

God IS love.

Whether or not that can be interpretted as "all-loving" I suppose is up to translation.

I'd say yes, but can't think of any scriptures that directly say that.

Sorry, Eil. It is really that simple, as hard as it is for you to believe.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

but that's not simple, dig... that's exhausting and untenable... your post was just arguing semantics, so it perfectly exemplified exactly what i claimed in my prior post about your logic being circular.

btw, i agree that 'god' is love... we share this knowledge, but that's not really so revolutionary or controversial an idea, is it? in fact, this deep realization into the nature of life extends to nearly all religions and philosophies in some form or another. to compare and contrast the multitude of revelations concerning love seeking the 'one true love' is kind of missing the point. love is a living force, literally right under your nose, not some dusty secret hidden in ancient tomes.

my main contention with your ideas is not on the supremacy of love. where we don't jive is when it comes to your strict adherence to the jesus narrative as the sole example of this truth. you seem to hold to this at the exclusion (and often blatant disdain) of all other examples. in my opinion, that's narrow-minded, obsessive and unfortunately foolish.

'unfortunately' because with such sensitivity to the beauty of jesus's sacrifice, it's a shame that your feeling heart is in any way closed to enjoying the different forms love has taken and yet may take.

Eil,

The next time I want to strangle someone I'm going to call you and you are going to tell me how to put it in the most polite terms possible. You are an artist of polite frankness. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Also, as an EX-Christian, I'd just like to say that Christians and their God definetly do not have a monopoly on Love, Morality, Virtue or Divinity. I got so tired of listening to the crap people spewed in churches about everyone being lost, and after 24 years of having it crammed down my throat I finally got up enough courage to walk away. The whole "Everyone is Lost but Us" thing is just a mindless power trip; just one religions manic desire for self-importance.

[This message has been edited by Sempre Solipsist (edited 10-23-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Sempre Solipsist (edited 10-23-2004).]

Speak for yourself, and your OWN church, Sempre.

Why don't you try a Calvary Chapel ? I think you will have a completely different outlook on "Christianity".

Eil:

The semantics are ultimately important in conveying the appropriate message. I don't think you can say I was dancing around the issue, fairly (which is what I gather you are insinuating).

The "love" post wasn't for you, but thanks for addressing it.

How is my heart closed to feeling different forms of love ?

By the way, I don't believe you answered me about whether or not you'd like to take this conversation to a chat service, such as AIM or Yahoo!

??

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Speak for yourself, and your OWN church, Sempre.

Why don't you try a Calvary Chapel ? I think you will have a completely different outlook on "Christianity".



Calvary Chapels are Lutheran are they not? I only ask because most of the Lutheran schools I've seen have been called Calvary and many of the lutheran churchs have been called Calvary.

Or is it an obscure denomination I've never heard of?

I've attended Lutheran, Baptist (my grandfather is a southern baptist preacher), Four Square, Nasserine (sp), Church of God (scary), Methodist and Episcopal churches - and in each of those cases, this was the case. I've also attended several Masses and the Catholics don't even let protestants take communion, so there is even more division.

I've known many good Christians, but even the good ones still push the everyone else is lost and everyone else is going to hell bit.

From the Calvary Chapel homepage:

"God is perfect, completely good, always right and fair. He cannot tolerate sin. He cannot simply overlook the fact that we have chosen to disobey Him. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) This means that the fair payment for our rebellion against God is death. It is the punishment that we deserve."

Is this not trying to scare people into Christianity? Is this not pushing the everyone but Christians are lost?

"Jesus died for you. You can be saved by asking Him for forgiveness from your sins. If you are willing to repent of your sin, He is waiting to forgive you. It doesn't matter what you have done in the past, if you cry out to Jesus for forgiveness..."

You've got to "cry out to Jesus for forgiveness"? For what? For being created by an insecure, jealous, wrathful and selfish God who failed to reveal His presense plainly to all mankind, who cursed all Mankind for the sins of the first two? We are suppose to cry out to that God?

quote:"God is perfect, completely good, always right and fair. He cannot tolerate sin. He cannot simply overlook the fact that we have chosen to disobey Him. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) This means that the fair payment for our rebellion against God is death. It is the punishment that we deserve."

And that is exactly true.

We "deserve" Hell, because of original sin. (Adam and Eve's rebellion)

God made us perfect, in the beginning, but He also gave us the ability to have free will.

Did He know that Eve would be tempted by the snake in the Garden ? Of course.

Did He know that Satan would rebel, thus giving him the opportunity to take the form of a snake, and tempt Eve into rebelling against her Maker ? Of course.

What is the purpose of it all ? I don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

It does say that when we enter into heaven, all questions will be answered, and all truths revealed.

Combined with that knowledge, the Holy Spirit fills me, and assures me it is enough, what we HAVE been told.

10 Reasons to Follow the Christian Faith

1. The Credibility of it's Founder:

Christ said He came from heaven to fulfill prophecy, to die for our sins, and to bring to His Father all who believe in Him. Logic says that He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Lord of heaven. His first-century followers drew their own conclusions. They said they saw Him walk on water, still a storm, heal crippled limbs, feed 5,000 with a few pieces of bread and fish, live a blameless life, die a terrible death, and rise to live again.

During His ministry, when some of Jesus' followers took issue with His teachings and left, He asked those closest to Him if they too wanted to leave. Peter spoke for the others when he said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (John 6:68-69).

2. The Reliability Of It's Book:

Written over a period of about 1,600 years by 40 different authors, the book on which the Christian faith rests tells one story that begins with creation and concludes on the threshold of eternity. The integrity of its historical and geographical record is supported by archeology. The accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran. Originating neither in the East nor the West, but in the Middle East--the cradle of civilization--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

3. It's Explanations for Life:

All religious systems attempt to give meaning to our existence. All attempt to explain our thirst for significance, the problem of pain, and the inevitability of death. All religions attempt to apply the design of the cosmos to our individual lives. It is the Christian faith, however, that reflects the caring attention to detail so evident in the species and ecosystems of the natural world. It is Christ who speaks of a Father who takes note of every sparrow that falls, a Father who numbers even the hairs of our head (Matthew 10:29-31). It is Christ who reveals a God who shows how much He cares for all that He has created. It is Christ who clothed Himself in our humanity to feel what we feel, and then to suffer and die in our place. It is Christ who reveals a God who cares as much about His creation as the design and detail of the natural world indicates (Psalms 19:1-6; Romans 1:16-25).

4. It's Continuity With The Past:

The Christian faith offers continuity with our deepest ancestral roots. Those who trust Christ are accepting the same Creator and Lord worshiped by Adam, Abraham, Sarah, and Solomon. Jesus didn't reject the past. He was the God of the past (John 1:1-14). When He lived among us, He showed us how to live according to the original plan. When He died, He fulfilled the whole Old Testament sacrificial system. And when He rose from the dead, the salvation He offered fulfilled God's promise to Abraham that through his descendant He would bring blessing to the whole world. The Christian faith is not new with Christ. From Genesis to Revelation it is one story. It is His story -- and ours (Acts 2:22-39; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8).

5. It's Foundational Claim:

The first Christians were not driven by political or religious dissent. Their primary issues were not moral or social. They were not well-credentialed theologians or social philosophers. They were witnesses. They risked their lives to tell the world that with their own eyes they had seen an innocent man die and then miraculously walk among them 3 days later (Acts 5:17-42). Their argument was very concrete. Jesus was crucified under the Roman governor Pontius Pilate. His body was buried and sealed in a borrowed tomb. Guards were posted to prevent grave tampering. Yet after 3 days the tomb was empty and witnesses were risking their lives to declare that He was alive.

6. It's Power To Change Lives:

Not only were the first disciples dramatically changed, but so was one of their worst enemies. Paul was transformed from a Christian killer into one of their chief advocates (Galatians 1:11-24). Later he reflected the changes that had occurred in others as well when he wrote to the church in Corinth, "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 6:9-11).

7. It's Analysis of Human Nature:

The Bible says that society's real problems are problems of the heart. In an age of information and technology, failures of character have scandalized institutions of family, government, science, industry, religion, education, and the arts. In the most sophisticated society the world has ever known, our national reputation is marred by problems of racial prejudice, addiction, abuse, divorce, and sexually transmitted disease. Many want to believe that our problems are rooted in ignorance, diet, and government. But to our generation and all others, Jesus said, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Matthew 15:19-20).

8. It's View of Human Achievement:

Generation after generation has hoped for the best. We fought wars that would end all wars. We developed educational theories that would produce enlightened, nonviolent children. We conceived technologies that would deliver us from the oppressive slavery of work. Yet we are as close as ever to what the New Testament describes as an "end time", marked by wars and rumors of war, earthquakes, disease, loss of affection, and spiritual deception (Matthew 15:19-20; Timothy 3:1-5).

9. It's Impact On Society:

A carpenter rabbi from Nazareth changed the world. Calendars and dated documents bear silent witness to His birth. From rooftops, necklaces, and earrings, the sign of the cross bears visual witness to His death. The Western world-view, which provided a basis for social morality, scientific methodology, and a work ethic that fueled industry, had roots in basic Christian values. Social relief agencies, whether in the West or East, are not fueled by the values of Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, or secular agnosticism, but by the direct or residual values of the Bible.

10. It's Offer of Salvation:

Alternative religious views have saviors who remain in the grave. No other system offers everlasting life as a gift to those who trust One who has overcome death for them. No other system offers assurance of forgiveness, eternal life, and adoption into the family of God by calling on and trusting Someone in the same way a drowning person calls for and relies on the rescue of a lifeguard (Romans 10:9-13). The salvation Christ offers does not depend on what we have done for Him, but on our acceptance of what He has done for us. Instead of moral and religious effort, this salvation requires a helpless admission of our sins. Instead of personal accomplishments of faith, it requires confession of failure. Unlike all other options of faith, Christ asks us to follow Him -- not to merit salvation but as an expression of gratitude, love, and confidence in the One who has saved us (Ephesians 2:8-10).

You're not alone if you are still unconvinced about the reasonableness of faith in Christ. But keep in mind Jesus' claim that we don't have to resolve our doubts on our own. He said, "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether My teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own" (John 7:17 NIV).

If you do see the reasonableness of faith in Christ, keep in mind that the Bible says to the family of God, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The salvation Christ offers is not a reward for effort, but a gift to all who put their trust in Him.

- http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/2rsn/

God bless you, and keep you.

Also, Ten Reasons To Believe In A God That Allows Suffering: http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/4rsn/

And the rest: http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/rtb/

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Eil:

How is my heart closed to feeling different forms of love ?

By the way, I don't believe you answered me about whether or not you'd like to take this conversation to a chat service, such as AIM or Yahoo!

??

in response to your first question, it seems to me that a literal interpretation of the bible and strict adherence to traditional christian principles would prevent one from following any other religious/philosophical paths, right?

so you are left with the requirement of turning a blind eye to the doctrines of other traditions, even though they may have a personal resonance with the rhythms of your soul.

reality/god takes on an infinite multitude of forms. no one religion has got it all right. if any claims to have all the answers, it has stopped progressing in its spiritual development as an institution, and is guilty of the most sacrilegious of crimes - self-denial, which is the same as trying to cage god.

as for the aim conversation, i forgot that you responded to that request. i'm sorry, i've been running around like a kenyan lately, so i really don't know when i'll have time... if you catch me posting at the same time as you some random night and think of it, go ahead and remind me.

"10 Reasons To Believe In A God Who Allows Suffering"

<OL TYPE=1>

<LI> quote:- Suffering Comes With The Freedom To Choose

If he is omnipotent then he has the power to let humans have free will, without also having to suffer.

The fact that he chooses not to do this proves that he is either not all loving or not omnipotnet. Which is it?

<LI> quote:

- Pain Can Warn Us Of Danger

So? That's not a reason for believing in an all-loving god that allows pain. It's a reaso n why pain exists, or a beneffit of pain, regardless of the existence of a god.

<LI> quote:- Suffering Reveals What Is In Our Hearts

- Suffering Takes Us To The Edge Of Eternity

- Pain Loosens Our Grip On This Life[/b]

See 1 and 2.

<LI> quote:

- Suffering Gives Opportunity To Trust God

Circular reasoning.

<LI> quote:

- God Suffers With Us In Our Suffering

-God's Comfort Is Greater Than Our Suffering

See 1 and 4.

<LI> quote:

In Times Of Crisis, We Find One Another

See 1 and 2.

<LI> quote:

- God Can Turn Suffering Around For

See 1 and 4.

</OL>

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-23-2004).]

None of those reasons were very good. Remember, I Used to be a Christian. It is much harder to convert me when I've already seen what Christianity really has to offer...and have found it lacking.

QUOTE Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:

From the Calvary Chapel homepage:

"God is perfect, completely good, always right and fair. He cannot tolerate sin. He cannot simply overlook the fact that we have chosen to disobey Him. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) This means that the fair payment for our rebellion against God is death. It is the punishment that we deserve."

Yes

Is this not trying to scare people into Christianity?

No, it is telling the Truth

Is this not pushing the everyone but Christians are lost?

Yes, but not because of Christianity. One is Christian because one is saved by The Messiah.

"Jesus died for you. You can be saved by asking Him for forgiveness from your sins. If you are willing to repent of your sin, He is waiting to forgive you. It doesn't matter what you have done in the past, if you cry out to Jesus for forgiveness..."

You've got to "cry out to Jesus for forgiveness"? For what? For being created by an insecure, jealous, wrathful and selfish God who failed to reveal His presense plainly to all mankind, who cursed all Mankind for the sins of the first two? We are suppose to cry out to that God?

"For what?"---Sin

"For what? For being created by an insecure, jealous, wrathful and selfish God"--

God does say that He IS jealous and wrathful, but He is not insecure nor selfish.

"who failed to reveal His presense plainly to all mankind, who cursed all Mankind for the sins of the first two?"

If you read the OT, you would see that He did make His presense known..and still was rejected and rebeled against. Yes, we are cursed for the sin of Adam and Eve, but everyone has sinned and fell short of the Glory of God. So we are also cursed on from own accord.

If the Bible is the History of Gods action with regard to Human Beings, I will continue to trust my judgment and goodwill over His. How often does anything good happen when God is around. Shit, His own Son gets killed! Talk about a miserable religion. The Jews, Gods' People, are constantly being shit on. The Christians, well, first they got fed to the lions and then they went around killing everyone who wasn't them. Then they wiped out the American Indians and goddess knows how many other indiginous tribes. Why? Because they wouldn't convert. *sighs* The Christian, Jew, Muslim God never does anything good for anyone except Himself. If that isn't selfish, I don't know what is. Personally, I'll worship every god but him. (Though, if you consider Jesus as the same God, that isn't true, because he makes a great "godform").

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:

If the Bible is the History of Gods action with regard to Human Beings, I will continue to trust my judgment and goodwill over His. How often does anything good happen when God is around. Shit, His own Son gets killed! Talk about a miserable religion. The Jews, Gods' People, are constantly being shit on. The Christians, well, first they got fed to the lions and then they went around killing everyone who wasn't them. Then they wiped out the American Indians and goddess knows how many other indiginous tribes. Why? Because they wouldn't convert. *sighs* The Christian, Jew, Muslim God never does anything good for anyone except Himself. If that isn't selfish, I don't know what is. Personally, I'll worship every god but him. (Though, if you consider Jesus as the same God, that isn't true, because he makes a great "godform").



But you are seeing the earth from the perspective of "after the fall".

Sorry, i "aint gonna take the time tonight".

May God the Father have mercy on you.

10 reasons to follow the Christian Faith

1. The credibility of it's founder

The fact that some of his followers who had seen him walk on water and heal the sick took issue with his teachings shows that it's not an all pervasive force that shows people the light. Christianity took off because people saw one lunatic die for a cause, and figured, "If that guy was willing to die for it, then it must be good." Then the scinerio repeated itself. Add that with the fact that anthropologists and historians think there was a strong possibility that the man referred to as "Jesus Christ" lived. Not exactly a statement of convincing empiricism.

2. The reliability of it's book.

Hm. A book written hundered of years after the fact. Not convincing. And what archeological evidence is there other than the fact that a large flood probably happened in the general area, at some point? A flood that left water 20 feet above the highest mountain would have killed every fish in the sea, and wiped out all plant life. Any book that has come through the numerous editings that book have is bound to have some errors. And not all of the dead sea scrolls agreed with the bible.

3. It's explanations for life:

And it is that same god who was vengeful and full of hellfire right up until the moment christ opened his mouth.

4. It's continuity with the past:

I don't even understand how this is an arguement, much less how it could apply to anyone not of middle eastern or western descent.

5. It's foundational claim:

The foundation of christianity of the rebirth of christ, yet you just claimed it didn't start with christ. Also, the common, uneducated man is an idiot.

6. It's power to change lives:

I'm not going to take issue here.

7. Its analysis of human nature:

So the problem here is we think bad thoughts? Your god made us that way! And our national reputation is marrd by the man you plan on voting for!

8. It's view of Human achievement:

There has always been rumor of war. There has never been an epoch in recorded history not marred by violence. Or disease. And if the spiritual purity and affection of the crusades is what we should return to, you need to think a bit more. The first thing that happens on the earth is a condemnation of knowledge. How is that a positive view of human achievement?

9. It's impact on society:

We use the christian calander because it's convenient. The holocaust also had an impact on society. Just because many people wear crosses doesn't mean it was a good impact. Many people still wear swastikas. Amnesty international. Doctors without borders. Greenpeace. More than christians help people, and it's arrogant and foolish to claim otherwise.

10. It's offer of salvation:

Islam has the same end offer, if the means differ. So does judeasm. Buddhism offers freedom from suffering. Hinduism goves a better next life. Norse ofers an aternity of combat training followed by The Big Party at the End of Time, for those who desire it. Christianity is hardly the only religion to offer some ill defined eternal happiness. The thing is, not all of us need it.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Sorry, i "aint gonna take the time tonight".

May God the Father have mercy on you.



lol May God take Mercy on his "people" - They'll need it. Trust me, the world is changing. They won't last long. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Muslims hate jews and christians; & christians and jews hate Muslims. I figure maybe the Abrahamic people will just kill off each other & the pagans will inherit the earth. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

..

[This message has been edited by Sempre Solipsist (edited 10-25-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Sempre Solipsist:



lol May God take Mercy on his "people" - They'll need it. Trust me, the world is changing. They won't last long. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

lol...you sound alittle like Voltaire... if you got an old printing press, leave it in your house when you kick lol

Well, I’ve tried to post on this topic a couple of times and I’ve been denied equally each time. Perhaps it’s this computer I’m using; I’m still too cheap to get a home internet connection – I’ve been busy anyway (see my Debate topic in Humanities).

I haven’t abandoned the topic, I just don’t really have time to post that much, again (this is my lunch hour I’m posting on). I would love to address all the arguments eventually, and I’m happy to see that my topic got so big.

Until I get on again,

mook

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

I already made a topic relating to this, but it's dead now, so here's the exchange, heavily truncated.

Me: I'm not christian but if I'm good can I get into heaven anyway?





Just thought I'd focus on this part.

What is heaven? What is hell?

Are they not just symbols of what we are? I do not believe they are a 'place' we go, but rather a state of being in the world. They equal what we do...what we pass down from generation to generation (which symbolicly expresses the concept of eternal life).



This from a fellow agnostic (although add deist to that classification).

Digital_Savior

'Saved'

I have a difficult time with this concept and connecting to Jesus.

[Assuming he was an actual man, which I still question whether he was man or myth...or man made into myth by those who loved him deeply.] It seems to me that Jesus died just as any other mortal dies. Except that it is witnessed that he died with love. He suffered with love. He was a man.

I believe it was Luke that bore witness to his saying 'Forgive them for they know not what they are doing.' Is that not love in its fullness...to love others even as they impale you?

As to whether Jesus actually spoke those words, that is questionable. I think they actually speak to the forgiveness in Luke, him being the witness. Perception is reality after all, is it not? This is how he perceived his beloved Jesus. This is also how he perceived the people within this context. Not with bitterness and hate, but with sadness and compassion.

So, tell me. How far away from this event did time get before the doctrine of salvation reared its head? Jesus did not die for our 'sins', he died because of our 'sins'. [or rather the hate that often overtakes us]

How many others who were crucified by the Roman-War-Machine were innocent of any real crime that could even be remotely justified by such a horrid punishment? In Christian's 'passion' of Jesus’ crucifixion it is often forgotten that many others died in a similar excruciating fashion. And I think THAT is tantamount to a crime in and of itself.

Okay, well...that turned out to be a bit of a rant...but I'll go with it... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:How far away from this event did time get before the doctrine of salvation reared its head?

sometimes ,just sometimes someone posts something ...

the 'doctrine of salvation' was always there ..however not in a form that most christians today could recognise it.

it changed its meaning gradually from about paul onwards.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

sometimes ,just sometimes someone posts something ...

the 'doctrine of salvation' was always there ..however not in a form that most christians today could recognise it.

it changed its meaning gradually from about paul onwards.





Exactly as mankind does. Hmm...the enemy of good...is better?

I think it all went to pot once the Romans got hold of it.