I was reading it last night (I often do), God has spoken to me in some pretty mad ways through it, but anyway, I came upon this

- Hebrews 6:4-6

quote:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame



Does that mean what I think it means?

no, every theologian in every denomination in the world have always thought that you could fall away and come back.

you just can't die in unrepentance. that's the unforgiveable sin.

Therein lies the mad genious of christianity, being the only major religion in the world to say "if you dont beleive, you suffer". Fear can be a powerful ally and a nice smoke-screen to all the faults of the religion. Sure, we live in a time of rebellion where the average youth will say "I choose not to beleive in your invisible man". But when old-age rolls around and all roads lead to the inevitable end, they will say "better safe than sorry". I'm a proud non-christian, but I'm also 17 years old.... I'm sure in 50 years I'll be humbled into god-fear, but for now I dance with those who fall from grace.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

no, every theologian in every denomination in the world have always thought that you could fall away and come back.

you just can't die in unrepentance. that's the unforgiveable sin.

FALSE.

You can't die with your back turned to God.

Unrepentence is a detriment to YOU, and therefor creates a barrier between you and God, but it does NOT revoke your salvation.

The only unpardonable sin is that of disbelief in God.

Read your Bible more... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Hey, Falcon...

That is a very good question, and I don't have the time to get into right now.

But know that I have seen it, and when I get home tonight from work I will give it my best.

There are MANY things to misunderstand in the Bible, and not much to keep us from misunderstanding.

Try getting a Strong's Concordance, and a English to Hebrew translator.

You'd be AMAZED what the texts REALLY say. *smiles*

Be back later...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

FALSE.

You can't die with your back turned to God.

Unrepentence is a detriment to YOU, and therefor creates a barrier between you and God, but it does NOT revoke your salvation.

The only unpardonable sin is that of disbelief in God.

Read your Bible more... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



You just repeated what I said

No, you said UNREPENTENCE is the unforgivable sin.

Unrepentence is to NOT say sorry for the sins you have committed.

Having an un-apologetic nature.

The difference between that, and what I said, is that I am talking about the belief in God, as opposed to unrepentence to Him.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No, you said UNREPENTENCE is the unforgivable sin.

Unrepentence is to NOT say sorry for the sins you have committed.

Having an un-apologetic nature.

The difference between that, and what I said, is that I am talking about the belief in God, as opposed to unrepentence to Him.

Not trying to get into another arguement here.

It looks like it's saying that if you were "saved" once, then voluntarily turned your back on God, then you can't be "saved" again. And it looks like the reason given is something along the lines of "Jesus died for our sins, but that only works once for each person. Otherwise you're asking christ to die twice, just for you."

quote:Originally posted by Thadeuss:

Therein lies the mad genious of christianity, being the only major religion in the world to say "if you dont beleive, you suffer". Fear can be a powerful ally and a nice smoke-screen to all the faults of the religion. Sure, we live in a time of rebellion where the average youth will say "I choose not to beleive in your invisible man". But when old-age rolls around and all roads lead to the inevitable end, they will say "better safe than sorry". I'm a proud non-christian, but I'm also 17 years old.... I'm sure in 50 years I'll be humbled into god-fear, but for now I dance with those who fall from grace.

Only some denominations say that if you dont accept jesus you go to hell many christians think you dont need to be christian to go to heaven.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Not trying to get into another arguement here.

It looks like it's saying that if you were "saved" once, then voluntarily turned your back on God, then you can't be "saved" again. And it looks like the reason given is something along the lines of "Jesus died for our sins, but that only works once for each person. Otherwise you're asking christ to die twice, just for you."

Really ? That's a wonder. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

What you just said is essentially what I said.

If you never believe, you are condemned to Hell.

If you believe, and then change your mind, you are condemned to Hell.

It has nothing to do with repentence, though you cannot be a successful Christian without repentence being an integral part of your everyday walk in Christ.

I guess, essentially, to be an unbeliever can be considered being unrepentent, but it is a different level that I am speaking of it on.

I think I know what ZMan is saying...we're probably saying the same thing, just in different terms.

I don't see "repentence" as an ultimatum, but rather a daily action that maintains spiritual stability.

I think he is seeing "repentence" as the conversion to Christianity, by accepting Christ, and thus repenting of all sins, past, present, and future.

Both are true, but I think my idea of repentence is more closely related to what this verse applies to. I could be wrong, though...

Thoughts, anyone ?

Oh, and I don't believe that once you have been saved (if you turn your back) you can't be saved again. (basically, you can fall away...it happens to Christians every day. I haven't met ANY that were truly Christian, and then decided there truly was no God. Once the stamp of the Holy Spirit is imprinted on your soul, it's hard to think otherwise. You feel it...you innately know it's true.)

At the moment of death, where your heart lies is the ultimate deciding factor.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-24-2004).]

quote:Only some denominations say that if you dont accept jesus you go to hell many christians think you dont need to be christian to go to heaven.

Hmmm...I don't know what Christians you are talking to, but ANYONE who reads the Bible (whether they agree/believe in it or not) can see plainly that you MUST accept Christ as Savior, and God as Creator in order to get into Heaven.

For the record, I am a NON-DENOMINATIONAL Christian. I have no religion. I have the Bible, and it is pretty cut and dry.

Therein lies the difference between those that read the word of God, and heed it, and those who interpret it to be "prettier" than it really is.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-24-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



I think I know what ZMan is saying...we're probably saying the same thing, just in different terms.

.]

Yeah, what I meant was if you die an unbeliever. And unbelievers are generally unrepentant.

Sorry, i should've chose words better. Although I do belief and constant repentance go hand in hand.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

, I came upon this

- Hebrews 6:4-6

Does that mean what I think it means?



Sorry, for the length. it's hard to decide how much is enough. Essentially, Digital is correct.

The 1st part is from People's NT 1891, the 2nd part is from James Coffman's NT Commentary. I have included the Heb 6:1-3 for background...

Part 1

HEB 6:1 1, 2. Leaving the principles. The rudiments, the milk fitted only for babes. Let us go on unto perfection. Go on to the higher lessons which belong to full grown men. The exhortation is to go on from the lessons of Christian childhood to those of manhood in Christ. See verses 13, 14 of chapter 5. Not laying again the foundation, etc. To lay the foundation once is enough, if it is laid right. These first principles are the foundation of Christian life, but we must build higher and higher upon them. Repentance. This was essential in laying the foundation. All men are commanded to repent. Repentance is essentially a change of the will, the rebellious will becoming a will to serve the Lord. Dead works. Some try to save themselves by trusting in their works but they are as vain to save as though they were dead. Faith towards God. Faith as well as repentance enter into the foundation. The sinner must believe upon the Lord, and repent. See Acts 16:31 and 2:38. 2. Of the doctrine of baptisms. The third of these first principles which belong to the "foundation" relates to baptism. See Acts 2:38, also Eph. 4:5; Matt. 28:19, etc. But why is the plural used? There is but one baptism in water when the penitent is baptized into Christ (Eph. 4:5; Gal. 3:27). There is, however, another baptism which was promised before Christ came which was not of water. See Matt. 3:12. Christ also promised it before his ascension. Hence there is not only the baptism of the body in water, but of the spirit in the Holy Spirit, as fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Laying on of hands. In the primitive church the extraordinary operation of the Holy Spirit was imparted by the laying on of the Apostolic hands (Acts 8:17). Of the resurrection of the dead. One of the fundamental but primary principles of Christian teaching. Of eternal judgment. This was comprehended in teaching the resurrection. All were to be rewarded according to the deeds of this life.

HEB 6:3 3-6. If God permit. We will go on to these higher lessons if God permit. The author is led by the Spirit in what he says, and hence humbly defers all he shall say in the rest of the epistle to the will of God. 4. For it is impossible. There are sins that have no forgiveness (Matt. 12:31, 32). There are Apostates who can never find a place for repentance, not because of the failure of God's mercy, but because they have destroyed their moral capacity for a heartfelt repentance. Usually the most hardened sinner are apostates. Were once enlightened. Had the light of the Gospel. See John 8:12. Have tasted. Experienced. The heavenly gift. The new life in Christ. Christ "giveth life unto the world" (John 20:31). Partakers of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit of God is sent into the heart of all sons (Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8:9). 5. And have tasted the good word of God. Fed on that word which is food for the soul. The powers of the world to come. The miraculous gifts of the Spirit. The world to come is used in the sense of the Christian dispensation. [See note on Heb2_5.] 6. If they fall away. Apostasize from the faith. To renew them to repentance. He is so far fallen that he has no capacity left for repentance. Judas the Apostate sorrowed, but his sorrows became despair. There was remorse but not repentance. Crucify . . . the Son of God afresh. By rejecting Christ they place themselves with those who rejected him and crucified him because he affirmed that he was the Son of God. Those meant are not those "overtaken in a fault," [Ga+6:1] or backsliders only, but men once Christian professors who not only turn away from but oppose Christ.

--------------------------------------------

Part 2

It is astonishing to behold the lengths to which people have gone in their writings to diminish the plain import of these words. The Calvinistic concept of the impossibility of apostasy, or the final perseverance of the saints, has always been nothing but a delusion. All efforts to resolve the matter by the judgment upon apostates to the effect that they were never really converted fail in the light of this passage, where there can be no doubt of the true conversion of them that later fell away. As Bruce noted, the passage can be abused in two ways. He said,

This warning has both been unduly minimized and unduly exaggerated ... (as by them that say) the sin in question cannot be committed today ... The warning of this passage is a real warning against a real danger ... On the other hand, our author's meaning can be exaggerated to the point of distortion when he is understood to say that for sins committed after baptism there can be no repentance. F5

The most difficult word in this passage is "impossible," which seems to perplex most of the writers. Macknight wrote that "The apostle does not mean that it is impossible for God to renew a second time an apostate; but that it is impossible for the ministers of Christ (to do so)." F6 Allow that God might indeed do what is here called impossible does no violence to truth, since all things are possible with God, except that he should lie or deny himself; and if the renewing of an apostate is not an action included in that exception, it would, of course, be possible with God. But the practical impossibility still stands; and it appears likely that the state here described as "impossible" of renewal should be identified with the "eternal sin" of Mark 3:28. Barmby noted this, saying,

The correspondence between the state here described and the consequence of "the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" suggests itself at once; our Lord's words, in speaking of that unpardonable sin, being rightly supposed to point to obduracy in spite of experience of the Holy Spirit's power. F7

AN ETERNAL SIN

A careful reading of Mark 3:28 and context reveals that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is designated as "an eternal sin," thus one of a class of sins that are called eternal and which are without forgiveness. In addition to the scripture before us, there are other New Testament passages bearing upon this important matter. The Thessalonians were warned, "Quench not the Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 5:19); the pleasure lover was described as "dead while she liveth" (1 Timothy 5:6); willful sin after knowledge of the truth results in there being "no more a sacrifice for sin" (Hebrews 10:26,27); "there is a sin unto death" (1 John 5:16) for which there is not even any need or commandment that people should pray; certain Corinthians were spoken of as being in a state of "sleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30); and Peter described a certain condition as being worse than lost (2 Peter 2:20,21); and the only condition that can answer to such a description is one from which recovery is impossible. All of these words of the Holy Spirit, and including the strong words of the Saviour (Mark 3:28), speak of a condition from which there is no recovery in this life or in the one to come. Yet in spite of terrible warning uttered here, no morbid fear should be allowed to fasten upon the soul as a result. What is spoken of may be simply stated as spiritual death, having its everyday counterpart in physical, or natural death. Once a man is truly dead, life cannot be breathed again into his body, death being final. Just so, once a Christian quenches the sacred Spirit within his soul, that too is final, the destiny of that soul being then and there fully determined.

What then is THE SIN that can cause so fatal and final a result? The answer is ANY SIN engaged in, loved, and preferred over fellowship with God. The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was the sin judged by Jesus to have been terminal with the Pharisees; but in making it "an eternal sin," Jesus clearly made room for the view that other sins as well could be just as disastrous. The unpardonable or eternal sin is thus any sin that results in the death of the spiritual life; and therein lies the danger of all sin. The counterpart is in the physical world where the fatal disease is the one inscribed on the death certificate and which varies with all kinds of circumstances. The Christian attitude toward sin should therefore be like that of a mother's concern over any threatened danger to a child. What mother could be indifferent to a splinter in her child's knee? She is aware that POTENTIALLY death is involved; and just so the Christian should move against the sin, no matter how slight or inconsequential it might appear. The paranoic fear that some feel in thinking that they might have committed such a sin is unjustified as revealed by the analogy in the natural realm. No person physically dead is concerned about his condition. Thus, no person whose life has already been severed eternally from God could have any feeling of guilt, remorse, or anxiety. "Dead while living" is the apt description.

Fortunately for all people, the spiritual life is quite persistent and hardy; and it may be that relatively few even of those most hardened rebels against God, have actually gone so far as to reach the "impossible" state. Peter's description of the condition, cited above, does not affirm that those "who are entangled" in sins are in that "worse" state, but those who "are again entangled and OVERCOME."

Then, O child of God, keep the holy fire alive. Just as the vestal virgins of the ancient Roman temple guarded the holy fire with their lives and constant vigilance, so Christians should alertly mind the sacred flame of the Holy Spirit within their hearts.

And then fall away

poses the question of the true conversion of those that fell; were they really and truly born again Christians, or were they in some vital manner deficient, either of true faith or of possession of the Holy Spirit? The more one studies this passage, the more it comes through as absolutely certain that those who, in this instance, are spoken of as falling away, were at first good Christians, genuinely converted, enlightened, partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come! If such a description as this does not indicate a truly converted Christian, as distinguished from one who is not really so, it would be impossible to imagine just how it could done at all.

The only thing one needs to give up in order to understand this is Calvinism; and why should any concern be felt over such a speculation as that of Calvin? Angels of God sinned and were cast out of heaven (Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4); Judas, an apostle, fell, and a genuine apostle at that, one who was commissioned to cast out evil spirits and raise the dead (Matthew 10:1-7); even THAT apostle "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25); and all of the repeated warnings of the holy scriptures against falling - what are those, if they are not stern words designed to keep people back from real dangers? If not what could be their purpose? "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12).

Despite the obvious truth, the bias of Calvinism is discernible in half the commentaries one may read on this passage. Hardly any passage of the New Testament having any bearing on the question has escaped some subtle distortion or outright contradiction. Thus, it is attempted to make out that Judas was never "truly" an apostle, overlooking the fact that one cannot possibly "fall" from an eminence that he has not attained. Again, Simon the sorcerer is usually represented as not having been actually converted; and to support it, the word of Peter to him are sometimes amended to read, "thou art STILL in the gall of bitterness" etc. (Acts 8:23), notwithstanding the colossal fact that the word "still" is not in the text; and not even the present tense is in it, as a glance at the Greek margin will show; for Peter's words were actually, "thou WILT BECOME gall of bitterness," etc. And as for the question of Simon's being saved or not, Christ said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"; and the inspired writer of Acts said, "Simon also himself believed and being baptized," etc. (Acts 8:13). Was he saved? If the word of God is true, he was saved.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Yeah, what I meant was if you die an unbeliever. And unbelievers are generally unrepentant.

Sorry, i should've chose words better. Although I do belief and constant repentance go hand in hand.

Ok, then I agree.

Yes and I said as much. "To be a successfull Christian, one must repent daily."

quote:I am a NON-DENOMINATIONAL Christian. I have no religion.

Interesting contradiction http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I am a Christian by faith, not by religious practice.

I don't see how this is a contradiction.

Christianity is not a religion, in my opinion, no matter what the Dictionary says.

Protestantism is.

Catholicism is.

These are derivatives of Christianity, only with extra man-made rules. THAT'S what constitutes a religion.

then what exactly is Christianity if not a religion?

Christianity - To be like Christ.

Man-made rules and ceremonies do not apply.

THOSE turn Christianity into separate religions, and then require a name identifying those rules and ceremonies.

Lutherans have different rules and ceremonies than Catholics do.

Baptists have different rules and ceremonies than an Assembly of God church does.

THOSE are religions, with a Christian premise.

I think that Christianity is a belief, and religion is what man creates by twisting and manipulating it into something that sets them apart, or benefits them.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Christianity - To be like Christ.

Man-made rules and ceremonies do not apply.

THOSE turn Christianity into separate religions, and then require a name identifying those rules and ceremonies.

Lutherans have different rules and ceremonies than Catholics do.

Baptists have different rules and ceremonies than an Assembly of God church does.

THOSE are religions, with a Christian premise.

I think that Christianity is a belief, and religion is what man creates by twisting and manipulating it into something that sets them apart, or benefits them.

Well hey then, we've got something in common after all.Religion is ritualistic bullshit, and people are stupid, therefore they follow it, like moths to the flame. Get rid of jeebus and you might turn into a Taoist yet.

Digital, the technical differentiation between a belief and a religion is that a religion give some kind of explination for what comes after death. So, you have a religion.

from webster's dictionary:

Main Entry: re·li·gion

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

no mention of life after death. also, notice it is not explicitly stated that religion is a system of beliefs held by a group - an individual can adhere to a religion consisting of one member.

in colloquial understanding, religion is typically seen as detailed beliefs in the supernatural held by a group of people who engage in specific rituals and abide by set moral guidelines.

Thats really weird. On dictionary.com it mentioned that, but that was 4-5 months ago. And I know it said it, because I used that as part of a proof that atheism wasn't a religion, on this forum.

Hmm... so basically... that would likely mean I'm screwed.

Nice.